Pakistan rejects bill banning child marriage

[wautd]

For being “anti-Islamic” and “blasphemous.”

Legislation to ban child marriages was struck down in Pakistan as the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) said it was “anti-Islamic” and “blasphemous.” The new law failed at the first stage of the legislative process.
The Child Marriage Restraint (Amendment) Bill 2014, which would have made it more difficult for children to marry, was quickly withdrawn on Thursday by Marvi Menon of the Pakistan Muslim League party.

The decision to pull the plug on the anti-pedophilia bill was triggered by CII speaking out against the idea. The council provides advice for lawmakers on whether the newly proposed laws comply with Sharia laws.

The proposed legislation was shut down in its infancy on “purely religious grounds,” The Express Tribune reported.

CII Chairman Mohammad Khan Sheerani said the proposed law contradicted Islamic teachings.

“Parliament cannot create legislation that is against the teachings of the Holy Quran or Sunnah,” Sheerani had.

According to Pakistan’s Constitution, the CII Chairman has the final say in the Council and can overrule all of the other members. Even though the CII rulings have no power over Parliament, lawmakers take its suggestions as guidance when passing laws.

The move to withdraw the new bill goes against Pakistan’s pledge to end child marriages by 2030.

The rejected bill would have introduced tougher punishments for those entering into marriage with minors, including prison terms for up to two years. It also proposed raising the minimum age for marriage up to 18.

Current legislation is already in violation of Islamic law, according to CII, since it requires a minimum age of 16 for girls to marry.

In contrast, the CII believes that girls as young as nine could be married off, “if the signs of puberty are visible,” according to a May 2014 statement.

Over 21 percent of Pakistani girls enter into marriages before they turn 18, according to the organization Girls Not Brides.

[Guardsman Bass]

Fucking Islamic hardliners.

According to Pakistan’s Constitution, the CII Chairman has the final say in the Council and can overrule all of the other members. Even though the CII rulings have no power over Parliament, lawmakers take its suggestions as guidance when passing laws.

No kidding. Remember what happened to Salman Taseer (the governor of Punjab until 2011) when he publicly opposed the country's blasphemy law? Murdered by one of his own bodyguards, and a whole ton of supporters for said bodyguard showed up at the trial (including many from the lawyers' movement).

[jwl]

Note that they were talking about raising the marriage age from 16 to 18. The marriage age is 16 in most of the US and a large amount of Europe.

[Walsh]

Note that they were talking about raising the marriage age from 16 to 18. The marriage age is 16 in most of the US and a large amount of Europe.

On paper, sure, but the law is only as effective as far as it is enforced.

More to the point, it appears that the main thrust of the bill was making child marriage more unappealing by making the punishments for offenders more severe, which implies a higher rate of offence than one might see in the USA or Europe.

Interestingly, it says the bill would have increased the prison sentence for offenders to "up to two years", which means the punishment is even more laughably weak right now. I don't know about the US and Europe, but in Australia for example, a 27 year old Muslim man was given ten years prison last year for marrying a 12 year old girl, and is probably on the sex offender register now for sex with a minor.

[SCRawl]

The problem, of course, is that the CII is absolutely correct when they say that men marrying children is anti-Islamic. If the Prophet could marry a seven-year-old and bed her when she reached nine years of age (as the Koran says that he did) then any law suggesting that modern people shouldn't do this is, indeed, contrary to Islamic principles.

I don't speak regularly with people of this faith much any more, since the one guy I worked with who was a fairly devout Muslim no longer works where I do, but I strongly suspect that most modern Muslims believe that this sort of behaviour -- which still happens, at least as recently as 2011 -- is wrong, since these brides are children. But the hardliners won't agree, because it's written in a fucking book.

[Grumman]

The problem, of course, is that the CII is absolutely correct when they say that men marrying children is anti-Islamic. If the Prophet could marry a seven-year-old and bed her when she reached nine years of age (as the Koran says that he did) then any law suggesting that modern people shouldn't do this is, indeed, contrary to Islamic principles.

Which is to say the problem is Sunni hypocrisy. The veneration of Muhammad to the point of idolatry is itself contrary to Islamic principles.

[Ralin]

Which is to say the problem is Sunni hypocrisy. The veneration of Muhammad to the point of idolatry is itself contrary to Islamic principles.

What's hypocritical about it? You don't have to venerate him like a saint to assume that if the Quran says he did something and portrays it as positive that means Islam should be okay with it.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Oh sweet Darwin, I agree with Grumman. That should not happen. I feel dirty now.

Which is to say the problem is Sunni hypocrisy. The veneration of Muhammad to the point of idolatry is itself contrary to Islamic principles.

What's hypocritical about it? You don't have to venerate him like a saint to assume that if the Quran says he did something and portrays it as positive that means Islam should be okay with it.

Muhammad was a prophet (according to Islam, etc) not himself infallible, so theologically speaking, he is capable of sins including sins within his own various marriages. Also, child marriage is not in the Quran. Child marriages are actually expressely forbidden. Young women have to reach the age of maturity before they are married (or at least a marriage consummated) which was typically around the age of 13 in the ancient world, but the exact wording means "capable of sound judgement".

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha is contained in the Hadith, and their veracity in theological terms...varies from sect to sect. The Hadith that speak about Muhammad's marriage to Aisha are all Sunni texts and invalid for Shi'ites.

Irrespective of anything else, the exact teachings found in the Hadith are not permitted to contradict the Quran, which a marriage to a 7 year old very clearly does if you have ever bothered to read the text. Saying that "what the prophet did in his own life supersedes the Quran" is not only hypocrisy it is also idolatrous blasphemy. And in this case, it is a Sunni problem.

[Ralin]

Child marriages are actually expressely forbidden. Young women have to reach the age of maturity before they are married (or at least a marriage consummated) which was typically around the age of 13 in the ancient world, but the exact wording means "capable of sound judgement".

Oh. Well I didn't know that. In that case yes, it is hypocritical.

[Walsh]

Child marriages are actually expressely forbidden. Young women have to reach the age of maturity before they are married (or at least a marriage consummated) which was typically around the age of 13 in the ancient world, but the exact wording means "capable of sound judgement".

Are you referring to 4:6 of the Quran, AD? It's all I can find on the topic.

Quran 4:6 And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. etc...

To me that seems so subjective as to potentially only exclude the very young indeed (ignoring the issue of particularly gifted children and less capable adolescents and even adults), which dovetails perfectly into why child marriage is still so prevalent in some Islamic countries, like Yemen and Saudi Arabia, where leading clerics/scholars interpret this age to be just 9. Then there's 65:4 of the Quran which refers to the waiting period (before they can leave the husband) of men divorcing girls who have not yet menstruated.

My point is, to say child marriage is "expressly forbidden" in the Quran seems dishonest. I can find no such decree, but I love to learn.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Child marriages are actually expressely forbidden. Young women have to reach the age of maturity before they are married (or at least a marriage consummated) which was typically around the age of 13 in the ancient world, but the exact wording means "capable of sound judgement".

Are you referring to 4:6 of the Quran, AD? It's all I can find on the topic.

Quran 4:6 And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. etc...

That is one of them, yes. There are a few more, but marriageable age is just the age of majority, of independence from their parents. That is not 9. In no culture I am aware of, is that 9.

Then there's 65:4 of the Quran which refers to the waiting period (before they can leave the husband) of men divorcing girls who have not yet menstruated.

That verse does have a provision for women who have not menstruated yet, yes. On the other hand, it was possible back then to reach the age of majority without menstruating. In france in the early 19th century, the average age at first menstruation was 14-15, and that stays pretty stable when you back in time to the 7th and 8th centuries. The earliest a girl would get married in ancient rome was 12 (marriage alliances... though 15 was more common), in ancient greece it would be about the same. In historical judaism it was 12 for girls, 13 for boys. Seeing a trend?

We would (rightly) consider all of those under age, but this was not the case in the ancient world, or even the medieval period when the age was 12-13 (while puberty happened at 14-15). Marriages were done in large part as family alliances, and there were allowances in marriage for not consummating until after puberty.

The only people who interpet the age of marriage at 9 (or even earlier) are Sunnis. Particularly Wahhabis and Salafists (which you find in places like SA, Yemen, Pakistan...), and both of those are decidedly modern theological constructions, completely divorced from what was, in the 7th century, the culturally accepted age of majority.

[Walsh]

That is one of them, yes. There are a few more, but marriageable age is just the age of majority, of independence from their parents. That is not 9. In no culture I am aware of, is that 9.

1. We know that the Quran says marriageable age is when they display "sound judgement", that's the only criterion I've found. So if a child displays sound judgement at 9 then the Quran is fine with it.
2. We also know from 65:4 that the Quran is fine with marrying pre-menstrual girls.

So according to the Quran the lower age limit for marriage is both extremely vague and entirely too young for a modern progressive society, the exact opposite of your assertion. This is my issue here. You can keep redefining things and shifting the goal posts all you want but I've provided a perfectly valid interpretation of the Quran by which someone could conceivably marry a child.

That verse does have a provision for women who have not menstruated yet, yes. On the other hand, it was possible back then to reach the age of majority without menstruating. In france in the early 19th century, the average age at first menstruation was 14-15, and that stays pretty stable when you back in time to the 7th and 8th centuries. The earliest a girl would get married in ancient rome was 12 (marriage alliances... though 15 was more common), in ancient greece it would be about the same. In historical judaism it was 12 for girls, 13 for boys. Seeing a trend?

We would (rightly) consider all of those under age, but this was not the case in the ancient world, or even the medieval period when the age was 12-13 (while puberty happened at 14-15). Marriages were done in large part as family alliances, and there were allowances in marriage for not consummating until after puberty.

I'm aware of the fact that child marriage was practised in many ancient societies. It's pretty irrelevant to modern progressive views where slavery and genocide are now seen as bad things too.

The only people who interpet the age of marriage at 9 (or even earlier) are Sunnis. Particularly Wahhabis and Salafists (which you find in places like SA, Yemen, Pakistan...), and both of those are decidedly modern theological constructions, completely divorced from what was, in the 7th century, the culturally accepted age of majority.

Salafists are fundamentalists who follow the Quran as closely as they can, and seek to emulate the prophet as best they can. When the result of that is child marriage, does that really surprise you? Don't you see how these things are related? The prophet did it and the Quran condones it, so we should do it too. It's an understandable interpretation of Islamic religious texts.

The Pakistani clerics are right that it would be un-Islamic to outlaw child marriage, since they would effectively be labelling their own prophet a criminal, and maligning the prophet is ACTUALLY expressly forbidden "33:58 Verily, those who malign Allah and His Messenger — Allah has cursed them in this world and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them an abasing punishment". That's what express forbearance looks like.

[Imperial Overlord]

Aisha is really bad case to use as an example of child marriage for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the very real possibility that he never had sex with her and the actual relationship may have actually been something like having his favorite grandchild move in to his household. The source on Aisha having sex with him at age 9 is Aisha herself and she was a relentless self promoter who never let anyone forget that she was Muhammad's favorite and thus not exactly a reliable source.

[Walsh]

Aisha is really bad case to use as an example of child marriage for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the very real possibility that he never had sex with her and the actual relationship may have actually been something like having his favorite grandchild move in to his household. The source on Aisha having sex with him at age 9 is Aisha herself and she was a relentless self promoter who never let anyone forget that she was Muhammad's favorite and thus not exactly a reliable source.

Are you aware that these people don't share your skepticism of their own religious texts?

[Channel72]

Salafists are fundamentalists who follow the Quran as closely as they can, and seek to emulate the prophet as best they can. When the result of that is child marriage, does that really surprise you? Don't you see how these things are related? The prophet did it and the Quran condones it, so we should do it too. It's an understandable interpretation of Islamic religious texts.

The main point you're missing is that Salafism is a relatively recent phenomenon in the Islamic world, and wider "Islamic fundamentalism" is itself something relatively new - as in, 20th century new. Also, Salafism is explicitly about following the actions of Muhammed - unlike wider Islam which takes a more comprehensive approach. But for the majority of Islamic history, especially under the larger Caliphates such as Abbasid, it's likely that marriage to a woman under the age of 13 would be prohibited.

Obviously, the vagueness of the actual Surah here is enough to allow Pakistani clerics to legalize pedophilia, which just highlights a fundamental problem with religious texts: most religious texts are "high-context" documents, meaning that a lot of the language is inherently vague, relying on the reader's overall cultural background knowledge to properly interpret the texts. And of course all that background knowledge is often lost to modern readers - because it was based on what was normative back in 7th century Arabia. This is a problem with religious texts in general.

Of course, it doesn't matter - the Pakistani clerics likely don't give a shit that a typical citizen in 11th century Baghdad would assume 13 years of age for marriage, rather than 9. And trying to prove them wrong is equally futile, since their entire premise - that the Koran is a divinely inspired document which we should all really, really care about (as well as their Salafist-specific idea that Muhammad's actions in particular are something we should strive to emulate) - is also invalid.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah... Islam didn't start really changing in radical ways until cultural modernization started happening en masse during the widespread decolonizations of the mid-20th century. Even then it's more that people changed rather than the tenets of the religion. Just take a look at modern day Christian fundamentalists in the States and consider whether their beliefs are all that different from Christians in the 19th or even 18th century. It's the same thing.

[Imperial Overlord]

Aisha is really bad case to use as an example of child marriage for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the very real possibility that he never had sex with her and the actual relationship may have actually been something like having his favorite grandchild move in to his household. The source on Aisha having sex with him at age 9 is Aisha herself and she was a relentless self promoter who never let anyone forget that she was Muhammad's favorite and thus not exactly a reliable source.

Are you aware that these people don't share your skepticism of their own religious texts?

Here's the trick, what I said is taking the religious texts as being reliable (something that's coming increasingly under question by modern scholars but that's another story). All those details about their relationship come from the haditha. Even if you unquestionably accept them, they strongly suggest a nonsexual relationship between the two. It requires no questioning of the faith and is something within the grasp of any Muslim scholar, especially one who is supposedly providing legal advice.

[Walsh]

Aisha is really bad case to use as an example of child marriage for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the very real possibility that he never had sex with her and the actual relationship may have actually been something like having his favorite grandchild move in to his household. The source on Aisha having sex with him at age 9 is Aisha herself and she was a relentless self promoter who never let anyone forget that she was Muhammad's favorite and thus not exactly a reliable source.

Are you aware that these people don't share your skepticism of their own religious texts?

Here's the trick, what I said is taking the religious texts as being reliable (something that's coming increasingly under question by modern scholars but that's another story). All those details about their relationship come from the haditha. Even if you unquestionably accept them, they strongly suggest a nonsexual relationship between the two. It requires no questioning of the faith and is something within the grasp of any Muslim scholar, especially one who is supposedly providing legal advice.

Sahih Al Bukhari

It was narrated from 'Aishah that the Messenger of Allah married her when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine.

Then can you please provide excerpts that support your argument as I have done? How do you reconcile that? I'm not going to buy the "it's just a hadith" argument, since Al Bukhari is viewed by Sunni Muslims as one of the most reliable of the six books, and is held almost equally in esteem to the Quran. You really think that just because you brush that passage off as coming from a shameless self-promoter that the Sunni Muslim world will do the same? Do you really not see the link between what I've argued in this thread and the behaviour of these people in Pakistan?

At this point in time I still see no forbearance of child marriage in Islam, and within Sunni Islam texts I see condonation, and even some degree of approval.

[wautd]

The only people who interpet the age of marriage at 9 (or even earlier) are Sunnis.

Coincidentally, there was an item regarding the death penalty in (Shia) Iran were they told that children could be trialed as adults. For boys it was from the age of 15, while for girls it was from the age of 9. I wonder if the age for girls is related to Aisha or just a coincidence/typical misogynist Islamism

the Quran condones it,

All those so called holy books condone a lot of shit. Instead of condoning it, it would have been nice if "Thou shall not rape" would have been in one of the 10 commandments, but I guess there's wasn't any room left after the first handful had to be about kissing God's ass

[Imperial Overlord]

Then can you please provide excerpts that support your argument as I have done? How do you reconcile that? I'm not going to buy the "it's just a hadith" argument, since Al Bukhari is viewed by Sunni Muslims as one of the most reliable of the six books, and is held almost equally in esteem to the Quran. You really think that just because you brush that passage off as coming from a shameless self-promoter that the Sunni Muslim world will do the same? Do you really not see the link between what I've argued in this thread and the behaviour of these people in Pakistan?

What part of my claim are you contesting? You've quoted the hadith that Aisha claimed that the marriage was consummated when nine years old. Neither of us disagree that the hadith exists and that's the only part you chose to support. Since you bothered the mention that the hadith was a respected one, you're surely aware that the question of authenticity of the hadiths and their has long been a subject of considerable debate and concern since the time they began to be assembled. That Aisha is a controversial figure within is Islam, although generally viewed positively by the Sunni, isn't news either. Nor are you objecting to my contention of that being bad scholarship by a supposedly learned advisory council.

If you're arguing that many Muslims will find child marriage acceptable because of that hadith, then please notice I did not contest that.