Pre-industrial Fantasy STGOD OOC/Rules Thread:

[Simon_Jester]

To Esquire:

More heresy. Also, for reasons which may not be entirely deserved or justified, Orion metallurgy has a greater reputation among the Ohioans than Turkish metallurgy. Also, the relative heresy levels. The Orions may be Spirit-deniers, but their weapons are not actively heretical. Purchase of the guns from the Turks was considered and rejected for this reason, by the office of the secretary of state for war, prior to the cabinet meeting.

On a side note, Athos died in a duel about eight years ago. Porthos and Aramis are starting to think about settling down and retiring.

[Sorry, but I do try to be faithful to the historical source material even if I time-shift certain elements so I can make them happen at the same time]
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Re: Eternal_Freedom

On further reflection, I can't storypost it. Since you had to ask... I will simply snippet the relevant portion, which I had already played out in my head.

Sir Sébastien Lepresque of... oh, nowhere you'd have heard of.

The colonel looked curiously at the Orion attaché. "Good sir, I have never ceased to be amazed at your gunnery drill, and in particular the grace with which your gunners survive the use of the gunlock. My own siege gunners manage, of course, and for your own guns in naval carriages, of course it is manageable, but in the field?"

"What do you mean?"

Lepresque shrugged. "Your Newton assures us, the impetus of a moving body is equal to the impetus associated with the integrated force applied to it, summed across time. And the celerity of a moving gun-carriage, in particular, would of course be found by taking the quotient of the impetus- unchanged, since you must surely use as much powder as we- with the mass of the gun- diminished, by your sorcery.

This being the case, it would test my courage to the utmost to pull the lanyard of such a piece; I am not such a young man these days, as to be even partly sure of getting clear of the recoiling carriage in time, as it recoiled with double or treble speed. Have you inquired among your gunners, as to whether they would care to form a corps of ballet? I am sure their grace, speed, and poise would be magnificent."

To translate that into English, the colonel is quoting Newton's Second Law, after taking the integral with respect to time of both sides. He is then noting that since your heavy guns have one third to one half the mass of their Ohioan sisters, and use a comparable powder charge, they must predictably recoil with two to three times the velocity.

And yes, he's read Newton, in the original Old (or new?) Orion- no Ohioan translation exists at this time.

So basically, I am starting to use gunlocks, and I'm more than a bit amazed you do.

I do hope you'll let me keep this notion, possibly with freakishly fast ninja-gunners leaping out of the way with blinding speed as the guns recoil like wild horses back at them.

P.S.

Ohioan siege artillery has been using gunlocks for twenty-five years... but most Ohioan siege guns are rather more than a quarter century old.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ohioan musketeers ahoy! Yes, three of them are named Dartagnan, Aramis, and Porthos, why do you ask? Though of course they do not serve the Cardinal.

Also, massively run-on sentences.
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The prototype six-pounder designs being tested by the Grand Master of Artillery have gunlocks and (as was common practice throughout the eighteenth century) touch-holes as well, with the gunlock being preferred for obvious reason. The standard ordnance four-pounder uses the touchhole only.

As to your own guns... To paraphrase Colonel Sir Sébastien Lepresque... actually, you know what? I'm making that a story-post too.

Well in the initial response is up, of course we'll happily consider selling you stuff.

As for the details...well, I am thinkign we may offer a lower price for the guns (or offer a larger number/more powder and shot) in exchange for a detachment from the World Breakers to be involved, under Ohioan command, naturally.

Hmm, perhaps this may be a way to introduce Charles, grandson of Prince David on the Ohioan side?

EDIT: On the matter of gunlocks, y'know, yeah, run with the ninja-gunners idea I'd already stated that my Psychomancers improve reflexes and drill and courage, so that helps. As for the heavy recoil, well, perhaps some reverse-Technomancy on the carriage is involved

Also, Yeah, I'm definitely claiming that Newton was from Orion

[Simon_Jester]

On general topics:

It had literally not crossed my mind that he wouldn't be.

Remember the good old days, of crossing swords with FUCKER NEWTON and the ENORMOUS PANIC?

And I had also planned to introduce Charles during the siege of Detroit.
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On the guns:

The Ohioans are actually shopping primarily for the guns, and will quite happily pay for (or make their own) standard, totally mundane powder and shot. For the applications they have in mind, having twenty-four pound cannonballs to lug around just isn't that much of a disadvantage.

By the way, the representative from the grand master of artillery's reply to "you have to promise not to reverse-engineer the mass-lightening enchantments" will probably be something like "The court wizards assure me it is impossible to do so. If you like, I will swear upon my honor not to flap my arms and fly to the moon while I'm at it."

That said, the Ohioans probably WILL agree to the idea of purchasing guns for less money in exchange for free reinforcements, which it sounds like you are offering.
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On the storypost:

Ohio operates under 17th century concepts of military secrecy.

It would not surprise me if the Cardinal's musketeers simply do not care whether foreigners deduce that Ohio plans the conquest of Detroit. There is no realistic way the Detroiters won't know Ohio is coming for them well in advance of the actual advance of the siege army, and sneaking up on people is vaguely unsavory anyway.

On the other hand, Cardinal Mazzarini knows this, and she is perfectly capable of thinking such things through. That being the case, she probably didn't actually tell her own guards her plans as yet. Aside from a handful of the 150 musketeers of her personal guard, the ones who actually guard her person and whom she relies upon to keep their mouths shut, the rest are fairly random noblemen reliable and willing enough to serve in the Cardinal's guard and adept enough at arms to be relied upon.

Thus, the ambassador's deduction is more likely to puzzle the musketeer than to alarm him. He's thinking "Hm, probably yeah, the Detroiters are a nasty lot who need cannons fired at them, so your guess is likely right," and wondering how fast he can get back from the embassy, through the streets of Louisville, in out of the cold and into the lovely warm inn with Geneviève the lovely warm barmaid.

Of course, being an Ohioan gentleman, he manages to think this while maintaining courtly manners and courtesy.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oh man, that takes me back, I think I might have to dig out that old thread and re-read it. FUCKER NEWTON indeed. That and the poop-slinging. Though the BARIS thread was equally hilarious in places.

On a serious note: If you just want the guns, by all means. Now that I think about it, my 24 pdrs should be even more deadly than OTL guns of the same size; they use the same powder charge but the ball, when accelerated, has only one-third the weight and doesn't lose velocity when the enchantment is cancelled, so it should have a significantly higher muzzle velocity and kinetic energy. As for where the "free" energy comes from, um....magic. Yeah, that's it.

On the reverse-engineering thing, well, the word of honor of your Grand Master of Artillery that it is impossible to do so will be sufficient.

Free reinforcements? Well, pretty much. We even bring our own guns! Not food though, we expect to be fed while shelling evil people

[MissingAxis]

Heya.

I've been busy lately, but I managed to crank out a quick Order of Battle tonight.

Link to OOB: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WfI ... sp=sharing

I will eventually convert it to a BBcode format to embed in this post. I haven't yet allocated point values for my military, though I do not plan on using more than 150,000 in wartime, and likely closer to a third of that in peacetime, with much of it dedicated to the navy.

I'm a little uncertain on a matter related to the points, and I'd like to apologize in advance if this has been discussed elsewhere. I admit, I haven't read the whole thread. As a merchant republic, I naturally possess a navy, but much of my economy is driven by independent merchants that are not strictly controlled by the government. They are citizens and thus pay taxes, but aside from times of crisis, they have no more obligation to the Republic than your average shopkeep. The issue, however, is that many merchant ships are armed, most of those at least as well as any trade ship in the Republic Navy. They are armed to protect the valuable exports in their holds, but do not personally involve themselves in wars except in absolutely dire circumstances (ie, the fate of the Republic depending on their involvement). I'm wondering how I should handle point allocations for these ships. Because they can be involved in combat (defending themselves against pirates and privateers), I think they should obviously have some representation of their abilities, but I don't know if this would necessarily count against my nation's point expenditure, except in the aforementioned case of desperate times and desperate measures.

Should I allocate points to them for the purposes of conflict resolution, and simply not count it against the nation total except during wartime? Or should I integrate it into the nation total simply because they can possibly participate in conflicts on behalf of the nation? I understand there is potential for abuse if the merchant fleets don't count toward my nation's expenditure, and I don't have a posting history to serve as an example of my honesty and not-being-a-powergaming-cock-ness, so I understand if the consensus is that I should count it toward the Republic's expenditure.

[Simon_Jester]

Hm.

I had thought you were simply using the mass-reduction effect to lower the weight of the ball during transport and so on; did you ever say anything about ending up with a ball that's going at abnormal high cannonball speed but has the normal mass?

[Eternal_Freedom]

In my earliest descriptions I said the enchantment worked on the ball but was cancelled by a special additive to the gunpowder when firing, and that the ball regained it's original mass without changing it's velocity at all. That's what I keep referring to as the Mass-Effect enchantment, since that's more or less where I nicked the idea from.

[Simon_Jester]

Aaaah. I see.

Well, that does have some advantages, though land-based open-field warfare isn't really one of them. Mortars loft bombs farther, I suppose.

[madd0ct0r]

But not much further. Air resistance following velocity squared and all that the balls would slow down quite quickly. They'd go a bit further, but not amazingly so.
Same for my slightly lighter stone cannon balls.

The cannon recoil had me considering an amusing contraption usibg the recoil to lift further shots high so they can be loaded faster.
Has anyone proposed water plus fire ball steam cannons yet?

[Simon_Jester]

With mortars, what matters is that the bomb goes higher, and gravity drains away the bomb's upward speed even faster than air resistance. So you actually get meaningful range increase just because the bomb spends more time in the air, although the enemy will correspondingly have more time to see it coming. Blackpowder mortar bombs are very much "you can see them coming" weapons, especially for large caliber siege mortars.

Conventional cannon don't benefit so much because they're designed to be fired on flat, high-velocity trajectories, and they can already shoot out to beyond their own maximum accurate range in any event. They do gain increased shattering effect against things like wood and masonry, especially at close range but to a lesser extent at long range. That helps against masonry forts and against warships, but isn't very useful against earthworks (which can swallow cannonballs of basically arbitrarily great speed and mass) or against formations of men in the field (because a purely conventional cannonball is already going more than fast enough that it won't slow down or be stopped by anything it encounters when fired at a group of soldiers).

Another limiting factor here is that the ball only spends so much time physically in the barrel, and unless you start making the barrel longer it will only impart so much additional speed to a mass-lightened ball. The faster the ball is going, the more likely it is to be out the barrel before the gunpowder is finished combusting and while the gases of combustion are still compressed and capable of accelerating it faster.

You can counter by making the barrel longer, but at some point this is just more trouble than it's worth even with mass-lightening, among other things because iron and bronze are expensive materials in a pre-industrial setting and these guns are going to use up enormous amounts of it as it is. You're not gaining very much by it for the field artillery, more so for siege mortars specifically and for naval guns.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I kinda figured it wouldn't give me a range boost, or be all that effective on land either, but it simplifies things for me; I'm already producing the special powder en masse for the Navy and as the additive is magical it doesn't cost much more than normal powder, so I might as well get the most out of economie of scale and just use the special powder across the board.. I can't imagine the Mass-Effect enchantment will give me any downsides in land combat while it does, as you noted, give me advantage in naval guns and with siege mortars.

[Simon_Jester]

Hm. The combination of lightened shot and mass-effect gunpowder does give you one disadvantage by closing out a particular option that conventional artillery possess, when using your current type of artillery for siege operations. Colonel Lepresque will soon illustrate by counterexample.

Since you have clearly been doing your homework on the history of 17th and 18th century artillery and ballistics, I extend to you my compliments and I shall leave working out what the disadvantage is to be... an exercise for the student.

[Eternal_Freedom]

In fairness most of what I know comes from an amateur if enthusiastic study of 17th/18th century naval warfare, and much of that coems from an excellent book called "Trafalgar: A Companion."

As for the disadvantage...hmm, only thing that immediately springs to mind would be it being harder to double-shot the guns, but since you said it was in land warfare I'm stumped.

Unless, higher velocity...a higher chance that shot will ricochet off ramparts etc rather than smashing into it?

[Simon_Jester]

Getting warmer in one sense, colder in another- higher velocity shot is more likely to dig into ground, not less.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Rounds might over-penetrate the target?

[Esquire]

Skipping them off the ground in front of enemy troops, I'd think.

[Esquire]

Oh! And I just realized who Lepresque is.

[Raw Shark]

But not much further. Air resistance following velocity squared and all that the balls would slow down quite quickly. They'd go a bit further, but not amazingly so.
Same for my slightly lighter stone cannon balls.

Our wind-spirit-infused shot probably has the best range that anybody's proposed so far, because it self-propels while slightly reducing air resistance as other air spirits get out of its way. Professional courtesy, you know. That and limited self-guidance is all that's special about it, however. Plus the cannons are self-air-cooled, wicking heat away from themselves efficiently (and directing it away from the gunnery crew, thanks to recent innovations that the old-timers among them are very grateful for), and the ocean is usually very cooperative when it comes to not spoiling our aim.

So here's some more preliminary thoughts on my OOB:

1200 Point Ships of the Line: Your standard two-decker, 74-gunner in performance, if not necessarily design, except that they are very fast (12 knots under good conditions, and the conditions are always good for us unless our magic is being jammed). and ridiculously maneuverable for vessels of their size and, frankly, clunky appearance. Each carries a kennel of Chupacabrae with an attached trio of Owl Knights, a platoon of regular marines, and a full circle of high-ranking priests.

1500 Point Flag Ships: A scaled-up ship of war, with three decks and a hundred guns. Each packs twice as many marines and Chupacabrae, even more experienced priests, with bigger meat lockers, and the most experienced commanding officers. Most are kept in ordinary (750 point down payment, and can be activated quickly for another 750) to save on expenses and wear and tear outside of wartime, except for the one parked outside our most significant western port for Kaiju defense, and the one currently waving our dicks at the Old Cordobans so they don't get any cute ideas out in the Azores. They can do about 10 knots pretty consistently.

600 Point Frigates: Same deal as a ship of the line, only scaled down and without the aerial squadron. Each will have an experienced priest and an acolyte or two, a couple squads of marines, and can do about 15 knots (16 for unsustainable sprints if we really spill some blood) in the absence of magical interference.

300 Point Sloops: An even smaller version of the above with even smaller guns, capable of the same speed. Trying to hit one of these things is an exercise in hair-pulling frustration; they can maneuver circles around most other ships of their type, let alone frigates.

And now, of course, I bring you the weird stuff.

2000 Point Kennel Frigates: Also known as Cabra-Carriers, among other things, these frigate-sized vessels, described in detail upthread, serve only as force-multipliers, but are crammed full of utility disproportionate to their size when accompanying a fleet, providing aerial surveillance, harassment of deck crews and those poor bastards up in the rigging, etc. Also, boarding one is a Kafkaesque experience. They're as fast as our other frigates, but can't usually afford to expend blood to turbo charge it, because the animals need it.

5000 Points: The AEN Nemontemi ("Empty Days"): This four-decked, floating monstrosity is always kept in ordinary (2500 point down payment, 2500 to activate quickly) except in times of the direst need. Normal sailors fear it, and refuse to speak its name, calling it the Ship of Black Sails, the Tattooed Whale, and other euphemisms. It was designed by the legless former Smoking Mirror Knight known as Toltecatl the Mad Shipwright, who claimed that it came to him in a dream sent by Tezcatlipoca. It was his last work, as he christened it with his own life's blood when he had finally completed the intricate etchings that cover it, shielding it from hostile magic. Capable of the same 10 knots and maneuverability as our three-decker flag ships, though nobody knows how. The captain is advised by a counsel of unusually gifted Smoking Mirror Knights, who can see much farther into the future with greater consistency than normal. The cabin boy is one of them, too, because who wants a horror story without creepy eyeless kids, right? Instead of normal marines, it has battle-hardened veteran Eagle Knights, plus a double complement of senior priests, but no Chupacabrae; aerial and night surveillance is irrelevant to it. The extra space holds extra food and sacrifices. If you listen closely at night, you might think you hear it breathing.

Names and Deployment:

Pacific Fleet: Active: AEN Huey Miccailhuitontli ("Feast for the Greatly-Revered Dead"), a 1500-point Flag ship. AEN Miccailhuitontli ("Feast for the Revered Dead"), a 1200-point Ship of the line. Both guard major ports. Lots of frigates and sloops to patrol the long coast; I haven't figured it out yet.

In Ordinary: None.

~~~~~

Caribbean Fleet: Active: Ships of the Line: AEN Atlcahualo, Cuauhitlehua ("Ceasing of Water, Rising of Trees"), and AEN Izcalli ("Encouragement for the Land and People") are currently anchored at major ports mostly to look impressive to foreigners, occasionally rotated out for maintenance. Lots of frigates and sloops patrolling our coast and shipping lanes.

In Ordinary: Flag Ships: AEN Nemontemi, ("Empty Days"), detailed above, plus AEN Panquetzaliztli ("Raising the Banners"), and AEN Teotlico ("Return of the Gods"). Ships of the Line: AEN Tlacaxipehuaiztli ("Rites of Fertility"), AEN Toxcatl ("Dryness"), and AEN Quecholli ("Precious Feather").

~~~~~

East Atlantic Fleet: Active: Flag Ships: AEN Ochpaniztli ("Sweeping and Cleaning"). Ships of the Line: AEN Tozoztontli ("Small Perforation"), AEN Huey Tozoztli ("Great Perforation"), AEN Etzalcualiztli ("Eating Maize and Beans"), AEN Tecuihuitontli ("Feast for the Revered Ones"), AEN Huey Tecuihuitl ("Feast for the Greatly-Revered Ones"), AEN Tepeihuitl ("Feast for the Mountains"), AEN Atemoztli ("Descent of the Water"), and AEN Tititl ("Stretching for Growth") guard the Azores from Old Cordoban and Not!Portuguese aggression and sea monsters. Lots and lots of long-range Frigates to patrol our shipping lanes for piracy and smugglers trying to dodge the ruinous tariffs and exclusionary agreements that we impose on Córdoba, but no Sloops. An unusually large attachment of three Cabra-Carriers also support this fleet, providing aerial surveillance across the region and serving as terror weapons against the Cordoban coast when they get uppity, picking off dazed survivors after bombardment or just carrying away children in the night, depending on the degree of their insolence and our mood.

In Ordinary: None: Ships are rotated back to the Caribbean ports for routine maintenance, though limited facilities for urgent repairs that require a dry dock are present.

[Coop D'etat]

On the subject of putting a fleet on Lake Huron.

The narrows of the North Channel is perhaps the greatest potential death trap for open shipping in the Great Lakes, being narrow, shallow waters dominanted by islands and in this world would be a nest of pirate activity in small craft. To move the war sloops of the Assiniboine fleetfrom their base at Sault St. Marie into Lake Huron proper would require an amphibous infantry campaign to secure the islands and destroy pirate bases to secure the shipping route. So timing wise, their appearance can only be after the winter weather clears sufficiently that necessary forces can be deployed to begin opperations.

I'm intending my next story post to be concerned with the difficulties of guiding a war council dominated by plainsmen who think every campaign climaxes with a final cavalry charge to approve an amphibious infantry campaign by boat borne skirmishers to clear the way for a naval opperation.

[Raw Shark]

I can't believe I did a section called Weird Stuff and forgot the giant octopi! I really haven't been sleeping enough lately.

300-Point Giant Octopus: Colossal but stealthy, the giant octopi serve as our navy's scouts, ship defense, and striking arm under the waves. We breed them ourselves using dark magic from an unspeakable tome unearthed from an ancient ruin in the deep south, and nobody else has stolen the secret yet. As intelligent as a human, and with very keen senses, the giant octopi are capable of highly-advanced tactical coordination with the surface fleet, striking with the element of surprise during naval battles, and then attempting to slip back beneath the water before another ship blasts them into paste. They are more vulnerable to getting hit than a typical ship, and can take up to a year to regenerate a tentacle, and several years for replacements to grow to full size, so they stick to ambush tactics, changing skin color as camouflage and attempting to capsize sloops or pull down smaller vessels outright before their presence is known. One by itself is usually no match for a typical frigate, but can severely inconvenience it by pulling its guns out of place, literally rocking the boat, etc, while its allies above blow it into splinters. Large teams of them can even do the same to a ship of the line. Their other primary job is to guard against submarine threats, such as other sea monsters, zombie pirates, Wizards, the shark men of the Pacific, etc, and to detect and intercept tomfoolery of the "bunch of guys get a small boat and sneak a bomb onto that big ship in yonder harbor around midnight" variety. Nobody even tries that stuff anymore in blockades of Cordoban harbors, at least without magic invisibility and silence or gigantic brass balls or something, after word got around about the octos' tendency to pull attempted boarders apart slowly and toss the pieces onto the nearest dock or enemy ship rather than eat them. Average cruising speed is only about 8 knots unless towed by a ship of the line, but their internal water bellows lets them achieve sprints of up to 20 over very short distances. Our ships are marked with magic phosphorescent paint on the keel, so they can be identified as friendlies at a glance, after a few early mishaps.

[Raw Shark]

Ghetto Edit: I just realized that I didn't match my flag ships to the value of EF's while trying to mimick his prices everywhere else, so I'm making mine 1800, too.

[Simon_Jester]

Hm.

I hope it will not be controversial if I declare that Ohioan mages have constructed a handful of examples of... shall we say sorcerous apparatus... by which a ship can move without oars or sails.

Given that most theologically acceptable magic in Ohio is heavily rune-based, it would probably involve a bunch of complex three-dimensional metal latticework below decks... I'm calling it an "impeller" if that's okay.

Top speed is about three to four knots, the impeller requires one or more mages constantly attending to it and channeling power into and through it, and engine failures are a regular experience.

This magitech will NOT be developed to a higher level by Ohio than it is now, and it may not be truly possible to do so.

If used for military applications I will of course pay appropriate point costs for a vessel of the given size, tonnage, and armament, given its spectacularly poor strategic mobility (an oared galley can cover twice as much water in a day if not more, as can a sailing ship under all but the most unfavorable conditions, and any conditions likely to be that unfavorable for a sailing ship probably make the water choppy enough to seriously imperil an impeller-drive wooden ship).

[madd0ct0r]

very useful for canals though.

[Raw Shark]

[snip]

If you've read my last couple of posts, you can probably guess my OOC response to this one. I can't really say anything about clunky perpetual motion when I'm trying to get you guys to swallow big honking ballerina / Miami Face-Eater ships and swarms of krakens and that sort of thing.

IC Response: "Without oars or sails? Is it being hauled by some kind of giant catfish or something, or just propelled by sheer expenditure of the blood of its crew? Creepy star-worshippers..."

[Crazedwraith]

very useful for canals though.

Or a becalmed sailing ship. I'd very much imagine this would be an addition. Not a replacement of sails.

I'm reminded of the proposed innovations for the brig-sloop Hms Raven Though she was wrecked before they could be implemented.