150 armed Militia occupy federal property in Oregon.

[Flagg]

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-or ... occupation

Looks like some refuge employees are talking.

Abandoned homes. Compromised bank accounts. Threatened family members. Constant fear.

Employees of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge said they’re going through all of that and more, as an armed occupation at the facility reaches its 20th day.

“I’m afraid to go back at this point,” said a refuge employee in an exclusive interview Wednesday. “I would say that this is the most disrupted my life has ever been.”

OPB agreed to withhold the identity of the employee because armed militants who took over the refuge have made threats against federal employees.

The conversation marks one of the first times a current refuge employee has commented on the situation. The employee talked about how it’s affected their life and those of their co-workers, and described how the situation could damage conservation work at the refuge.

“Knowing that they’re combing through all of our files, everything that we have that’s government and personal at the refuge, that they have access to our computers, that they know everything from my Social Security number to my shoe size,” the current U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service employee said, “it’s a great sense of violation.”

Lives Disrupted
Kevin Foerster, who manages all of USFWS’s refuges throughout the Northwest and Hawaii, called the threats to his workers “egregious.”

Foerster said the agency has taken steps to keep refuge employees safe, including monitoring their credit and moving them out of Harney County. While only those working in the county have been relocated, a USFWS spokesman said the agency has put its facilities on alert.

“That’s an attack on individuals,” Foerster said. “It’s just not right, whatever their cause is, that’s just not right.”

Current USFWS employees said they’re angry and frustrated by what the armed militants, led by Ammon and Ryan Bundy, have done at the refuge.

In the days since the refuge was taken over Jan. 2, employees have regularly spoken to each other. They say they’re angry, even devastated, about being displaced.

“Some have children that are school aged, some don’t. But regardless, to have an entire upheaval of the entire family unit is very disruptive psychologically for all of our families,” the current refuge employee told OPB.

But talking helps, the employee said, noting there’s “therapeutic” value in sharing frustrations.

The refuge employees are still getting paid as the occupation stretches into its third week. Some workers are able to do their jobs remotely. For others, the agency has found temporary work in other locations.

For the federal employees who have stuck around, law enforcement said recently that the threats from militants have continued.

“That loss of a sense of safety,” the refuge employee said, “we don’t realize how core and how important that is until that’s been compromised and it definitely has in this situation.”

And the emotional toll is growing. The current employee spoke openly about the difficulty of concentrating because of obsessive thoughts, saying day-to-day work is both hard and a welcomed distraction.

“When everything that you hold dear, from your personal life to what you’ve achieved in your professional life, has all been seemingly taken away from you by people who have no comprehension of who you are or even the place where you live — it’s a difficult thing to process,” the employee said.

Many in Harney County have spoken openly about growing divisions between family and friends with opposing views of the occupation.

“I have some friends that believe that perhaps the militia is doing a good thing,” the employee said. “It’s quite surprising and disappointing.”

Foerster put it more bluntly.

“I suspect that Teddy Roosevelt’s probably rolling over in his grave right now if he knew what was happening out there,” he said. The former U.S. president established the Malheur refuge in 1908.
Work Disrupted
Foerster and the current refuge employee expressed concern about the damage that could happen to the refuge and the relationship with surrounding ranchers if the occupation continues.

The refuge relies on some cattle grazing to help maintain a healthy habitat for birds and other wildlife. In turn, the ranchers rely on the forage the refuge provides.

But the problems aren’t limited to personal relationships.

Workers manage water levels at the refuge using a series of dams. One of the reasons is to manage a carp population in Malheur Lake that swells each spring. Carp are an aggressive species that eat almost anything, and can hurt the ecosystem migratory birds depend on.

“If we’re not able to keep up with our water delivery system then all the progress that we’ve made in removing carp from the wetlands in the Blitzen Valley will be compromised and we could lose five years of work in just a matter of a month with our absence,” the refuge employee said.

If that absence continues into warmer months when the snowpack melts, it could even lead to flooding and major road damage in the county.

If the Bundys get their way, federal workers won’t return to the refuge. Earlier this week, the militants told a group of Harney County ranchers they want the federal government out of the area permanently. They asked ranchers to cancel their grazing leases with federal agencies like the Bureau of Land Management and the USFWS.

The Bundys said grazing on the public lands would continue, however, with ranchers being protected from repercussions by armed militants.

Foerster said if the Bundy plan occurred, it would be against the law.

“That’d be a contractual violation, as well as a regulation violation,” he said. “It’s just not in anybody’s best interest to go down that line.”
Progress Disrupted
The Bundys and their supporters said they originally came to Harney County to stand up for two local ranchers, Dwight and Steven Hammond, who went to federal prison for arson earlier this month. USFWS employees acknowledge that their relationship with ranchers in the area has been strained at times.

The refuge employee who spoke to OPB said they’ve personally been threatened in the past by the Hammond family, but the employee was quick to say that the relationship had become much more positive in recent years.

It’s a turn that’s representative of the overall improving relations with local ranchers, according to USFWS officials.

“We see Malheur as a model for collaboration,” said Foerster. “Locals have influence as to how that refuge is managed.”

Since the occupation began, the employee said, some ranchers have called to say they’re upset by the occupation and the damage it’s done to the community.

Despite the continued threats and fear being created by the militants, the employee said they still see Harney County as their home.

“I love working at the Refuge,” the employee said. “I’ve always seen myself as retiring there.”

In the end, the employee said the Bundys would fail in their quest to take over the refuge and rid the county of the federal government.

“I would say ultimately they picked the wrong community … that the ranchers in Harney County do not share their issues,” the employee said. “We will move forward together.”

TL:DR

Yes, they have threatened federal employees.

Yes, they are attempting to induce local ranchers to cancel their grazing leases while continuing to graze by promising to protect them from repercussions by way armed militants.

Have I mentioned how awesome it is to be a straight, white, Christian male in an armed militia under the Obama administration? You can pretty much get away with anything! I'm just glad the aren't a bunch of Muslims, or we'd smell the burning corpses all the way up here north of Seattle.

[General Zod]

In a more serious note the Bundy shitheads are damaging historical artifacts by operating bulldozers.

The armed occupiers of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge continue to use government equipment inside the complex.
One militant, who refused to give his name, again plowed dirt with a refuge bulldozer Wednesday. He wouldn’t say why he was operating the machinery, but in several places, sagebrush and vegetation had been newly removed, leaving wide patches of bare mud within the complex.

The new road connects a bunkhouse with another road.

When asked about the construction, the militant claimed that the road was already there, and that militants had only removed snow from the path.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service confirmed Thursday that not only is the road built last week by the occupiers new, but it is also within an archaeological site important to the Burns Paiute Tribe.
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service assistant director of external affairs, Jason Holm, condemned the militants last week for what he called “disgusting, ghoulish behavior.”

They removed part of a fence to create the short access road.

That fence was in place “as a deterrent to keep fire crews from driving across the archaeological site,” said Holm.

It appears militants moved rocks from an existing gravel pile in the compound to surface the road.

“It was just a goat trail before,” one militant told OPB, who also declined to provide his name. “People were slipping and falling.”

Kevin Foerster, the agency’s Pacific region chief, also denounced the construction.
“There’s a reason why there’s not a road there,” said Foerster. “If there was a need for a road in that particular location, we would have over the past 108 years put a road in that location.”

The agency said the action is likely a violation of the Archaeological Resources Protection Act, also known as the ARPA.

“Even disturbing 3 to 4 inches on the surface is an ARPA violation,” said Holm. “Investigators will have to excavate to determine depth of disturbance in several areas to understand the extent of the damage.”

[Thanas]

Can the US gov please grow some balls already?

[Gaidin]

Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead? Go in guns blazing, and forget talking them down now that they've established contact?

[Thanas]

They are neither freezing nor starving. They are not cut off from the outside. There is no siege. The whole thing is utterly pathetic.

When black people protest non-violently? Armed police, dressed like soldiers, in military vehicles on the streets. Police violence.

Armed white people? You tell me.

[aerius]

Can the US gov please grow some balls already?

Might as well ask them to stop fucking around in the Middle East while you're at it.

Personally I think the time for talking is over. Misuse and destruction of government property is a felony, time to break out the APCs and get serious. If they die, they die.

[Gaidin]

They are neither freezing nor starving. They are not cut off from the outside. There is no siege. The whole thing is utterly pathetic.

When black people protest non-violently? Armed police, dressed like soldiers, in military vehicles on the streets. Police violence.

Armed white people? You tell me.

Every thing you're addressing is typically handled hilariously differently because it's A) typically on local property and outside federal jurisdiction and B) hilariously not specifically requested the help of the feds even when it's on federal property. So I'm not sure why the FBI's unique patterns are at all relevant to local police patterns.

[gizmojumpjet]

They are neither freezing nor starving. They are not cut off from the outside. There is no siege. The whole thing is utterly pathetic.

When black people protest non-violently? Armed police, dressed like soldiers, in military vehicles on the streets. Police violence.

Armed white people? You tell me.

"The police treat black people brutally and I think this is wrong and I therefore think they should also start treating white people brutally for great justice."
~Thanas

[Gaidin]

They are neither freezing nor starving. They are not cut off from the outside. There is no siege. The whole thing is utterly pathetic.

When black people protest non-violently? Armed police, dressed like soldiers, in military vehicles on the streets. Police violence.

Armed white people? You tell me.

"The police treat black people brutally and I think this is wrong and I therefore think they should also start treating white people brutally for great justice."
~Thanas

More accurately:

"The local police treat black people brutally and I think that this is wrong and I therefore think the feds should pull their weight and start treating white people just as brutally for great justice."
~Thanas

[Thanas]

"The police treat black people brutally and I think this is wrong and I therefore think they should also start treating white people brutally for great justice."
~Thanas

Nice strawman.

"The local police treat black people brutally and I think that this is wrong and I therefore think the feds should pull their weight and start treating white people just as brutally for great justice."
~Thanas

[

Even nicer strawman.

Every thing you're addressing is typically handled hilariously differently because it's A) typically on local property and outside federal jurisdiction and B) hilariously not specifically requested the help of the feds even when it's on federal property. So I'm not sure why the FBI's unique patterns are at all relevant to local police patterns.

You know very well what I am getting at. If the state claims to have a monopoly on using violence for political aims then it needs to enforce that.

The people of the county took a vote asking the militia to leave.
The representatives of the county have told them to fuck off and get off the land.
They are in breach of several laws and are committing felonies.

When does the Government finally decide to act?

Personally I think the time for talking is over. Misuse and destruction of government property is a felony, time to break out the APCs and get serious. If they die, they die.

Not quite there yet. I suggest giving them a week to surrender and face charges. Then crank up the pressure.

[Gaidin]

"The police treat black people brutally and I think this is wrong and I therefore think they should also start treating white people brutally for great justice."
~Thanas

Nice strawman.

"The local police treat black people brutally and I think that this is wrong and I therefore think the feds should pull their weight and start treating white people just as brutally for great justice."
~Thanas

[

Even nicer strawman.

Really? You're the one wanting the government to "grow some balls" only the day after they allow contact to be established. And Bundy is only allowing contact to be maintained every 24 hours as of yet. Especially given we're talking about an agency that acts on wildly different policies than typical police departments that results in the brutal treatments you're bitching about re: black non-violent protests. I see no strawman.

The typical FBI complaint around here is over-ambitiousness in warrant execution. Not how they actually treat their suspects(though yes, this happens once for every fifteen or twenty other type of complaint). Get your shit straight please.

[Thanas]

Really?

Yes, really. I have not advocated that they be shot on sight. Nor have I advocated they be brutalized for no reason. In fact, there is no reason for brutalizing peaceful protest. There is every reason for brutalizing armed insurrection.

That you are unable to grasp this obvious fact is not my problem.

[Gaidin]

Really?

Yes, really. I have not advocated that they be shot on sight. Nor have I advocated they be brutalized for no reason. In fact, there is no reason for brutalizing peaceful protest. There is every reason for brutalizing armed insurrection.

That you are unable to grasp this obvious fact is not my problem.

This is yet to be provable as armed insurrection. The most any decent prosecutor can possibly establish is trespassing on federal property, armed. With an assortment of other stuff given the damage they're causing. Unless you really think they're trying to overthrow the government. Everything being said points to some dramatic attempt to pry land from federal ownership. Seems different. Would you as a lawyer please tell me how one is provable as another? I'm just a layman here.

[Thanas]

This is yet to be provable as armed insurrection. The most any decent prosecutor can possibly establish is trespassing on federal property, armed. With an assortment of other stuff given the damage they're causing. Unless you really think they're trying to overthrow the government. Everything being said points to some dramatic attempt to pry land from federal ownership. Seems different. Would you as a lawyer please tell me how one is provable as another? I'm just a layman here.

I am not familiar enough with US treason law to make such a statement. So the following is just me arguing in general.

They made threats and are walking around, clearly showing intention to resist the rule of law with armed force.Add to that destroying federal property, theft and all the other felony charges. But even more important, this is not some nonviolent protest. It is in effect nothing more than highway robbery in another form. They are doing this for material gain, using armed force.

This is a direct assault on the rule of law. This should never be tolerated by any state. There is no reason it should.

[Gaidin]

I am not familiar enough with US treason law to make such a statement. So the following is just me arguing in general.

They made threats and are walking around, clearly showing intention to resist the rule of law with armed force.Add to that destroying federal property, theft and all the other felony charges. But even more important, this is not some nonviolent protest. It is in effect nothing more than highway robbery in another form. They are doing this for material gain, using armed force.

This is a direct assault on the rule of law. This should never be tolerated by any state. There is no reason it should.

And yet, the first thing done was isolate them so they can't hurt anybody. The second step seemed to be wanted is to follow the stereotype and kick down the door? When they are not in a position to hurt anybody. Insofar as I remember one has already been arrested for driving a federal vehicle to town. Look, you want the FBI not to follow a fully legit attempt not to talk them down(your week long timing desires being moot, I think they'll keep talking as long as they think they have a chance), you should've asked the Sheriff to call in the NYPD, all stereotypes being equal.

[Thanas]

And yet, the first thing done was isolate them so they can't hurt anybody.

Must be a nice "isolation" when they still have working power and get postal service.

The second step seemed to be wanted is to follow the stereotype and kick down the door? When they are not in a position to hurt anybody. Insofar as I remember one has already been arrested for driving a federal vehicle to town. Look, you want the FBI not to follow a fully legit attempt not to talk them down(your week long timing desires being moot, I think they'll keep talking as long as they think they have a chance)

To what end? This has been going on for several weeks already. Where do you draw the line?

you should've asked the Sheriff to call in the NYPD, all stereotypes being equal.

What part of "I do not approve of the NYPD" do you not understand? I don't want those racist assholes to be used against anybody. That does not mean I want the USA to not use any of the other, perfectly legal and non-racist options on the table.

[aerius]

This is yet to be provable as armed insurrection. The most any decent prosecutor can possibly establish is trespassing on federal property, armed. With an assortment of other stuff given the damage they're causing. Unless you really think they're trying to overthrow the government. Everything being said points to some dramatic attempt to pry land from federal ownership.

Can't get them for insurrection yet, but you can whack them with a bunch of felony charges for damaging government property, and you can get them for terrorism as well. Unless the prosecutor is incompetent the assholes are going to a pound them in the ass prison for a few decades.

And since they're terrorists and the US supposedly doesn't negotiate with terrorists, my point stands. The time for talking is done, it's time to roll tanks.

[Gaidin]

To what end? This has been going on for several weeks already. Where do you draw the line?

I draw the line when Bundy's stupid ass actually raises the ante. It's either that or a ranking official in the DoJ forces the FBI to play force.

[General Zod]

To what end? This has been going on for several weeks already. Where do you draw the line?

I draw the line when Bundy's stupid ass actually raises the ante. It's either that or a ranking official in the DoJ forces the FBI to play force.

So we should tolerate any violations of the law as long as nobody gets hurt? What about trying to compromise federal bank accounts or ruining cultural artifacts?

[Gaidin]

So we should tolerate any violations of the law as long as nobody gets hurt? What about trying to compromise federal bank accounts or ruining cultural artifacts?

Does it look like nobody's working the situation? Take your strawman elsewhere. The question is where I draw the line. I presumed that to mean when should they cut off talks and assault the place. Every piece of damage they've done there as of yet is to a non-living entity. I personally don't care that they've gotten trolled by the internet-at-large for all I will laugh. I personally don't care that they still have power. Let that be a card to play when Bundy does something stupid. It gives them a step between 'just negotiations' and 'assault'. If an order comes down from High to move before Bundy does something stupid, hope to god they have that shit in writing in case something goes hilariously wrong.

But no. Nothing except inanimate objects are in danger right now. Let the officers you say are mysteriously somewhere else do their god damn jobs. Idiot.

[General Zod]

So we should tolerate any violations of the law as long as nobody gets hurt? What about trying to compromise federal bank accounts or ruining cultural artifacts?

Does it look like nobody's working the situation? Take your strawman elsewhere. The question is where I draw the line. I presumed that to mean when should they cut off talks and assault the place. Every piece of damage they've done there as of yet is to a non-living entity. I personally don't care that they've gotten trolled by the internet-at-large for all I will laugh. I personally don't care that they still have power. Let that be a card to play when Bundy does something stupid. It gives them a step between 'just negotiations' and 'assault'. If an order comes down from High to move before Bundy does something stupid, hope to god they have that shit in writing in case something goes hilariously wrong.

But no. Nothing except inanimate objects are in danger right now. Let the officers you say are mysteriously somewhere else do their god damn jobs. Idiot.

They've already threatened federal workers. Or do you not think anyone's in danger unless they're actually pointing a gun at them?

[Gaidin]

They've already threatened federal workers. Or do you not think anyone's in danger unless they're actually pointing a gun at them?

Charge them with threatening them when its over. They're not in danger unless they go near the workers. Do the damn math. Like I said earlier, a couple have already been snapped up for one reason when they left the place. That complaint has left people bitching about overreaction from cops walking a beat plenty of times. For once, here we have federal law enforcement trying to bring this down peacefully and all you can do is bitch bitch bitch? Go to hell with your hypocrisy. When they actually shoot at somebody I'll be interested.

[Napoleon the Clown]

That Ammon Bundy was able to borrow a cell phone from a government agent means that he's been within cuffing distance. He didn't get his ass arrested. They sure are taking this seriously! Right? Right?!

That they've only arrested a handful of lackeys while letting Mammon Bundy borrow a phone and walk away suggests that they're just not that concerned. That they keep delivering mail to these assholes suggests they're not concerned. That power and water remain on suggests they're not really trying to end this shit. The post office has every right to refuse delivery of mail. For shit as trivial as your mailbox being blocked a few days in a row. Armed insurgents that have threatened federal employees is more than enough reason for the post office to tell them to get fucked.

Let's face it, if you're white and have guns you can play soldier all you want and the government won't really try to do anything. If you're not white and you do the same, you're instantly labeled a terrorist and they're perfectly willing to just straight murder you. If you're protesting the corporate overlords local police will beat your ass a mace you. If you're black and you protest police brutality while completely unarmed you're met with a bunch of police in full riot gear armed to the teeth ready to throw tear gas into the middle of groups that they damned well know contain children.

So, here's the short version of what I (and I imagine everyone else) want: Shut off power, water, and mail delivery to these assholes. When they surrender, arrest them without the use of any force beyond what is necessary, and send their asses to prison for a good long time. And local and state police forces really need to stop with that excessive force thing. Do something about corruption in your ranks.

[Patroklos]

Really?

Yes, really. I have not advocated that they be shot on sight. Nor have I advocated they be brutalized for no reason. In fact, there is no reason for brutalizing peaceful protest. There is every reason for brutalizing armed insurrection.

That you are unable to grasp this obvious fact is not my problem.

When did the Missouri students who occupied functioning academic buildings have violence used against them?

When Democratic union members took over the Wisconson legislature, was violence used against them?

When has violence, by either side, taken place in the current situation?

[Thanas]

Really?

Yes, really. I have not advocated that they be shot on sight. Nor have I advocated they be brutalized for no reason. In fact, there is no reason for brutalizing peaceful protest. There is every reason for brutalizing armed insurrection.

That you are unable to grasp this obvious fact is not my problem.

When did the Missouri students who occupied functioning academic buildings have violence used against them?

When Democratic union members took over the Wisconson legislature, was violence used against them?

When has violence, by either side, taken place in the current situation?

How are any of those situations comparable?