150 armed Militia occupy federal property in Oregon.

[Broomstick]

They are attempting to use violence to become immune to the law. We wouldn't tolerate that in a bunch of gangsters or criminals. We wouldn't let some lunatic take his son hostage so that he could get custody returned to him or something. Why are we letting a group of organized lunatics with a political agenda do it?

In general, the authorities don't go into hostage situations immediately with guns blazing, there are usually attempts to resolve the situation without gunfire.

IF there is some behind-the-scenes strategy to attempt a non-violent resolution I'm OK with that - except we won't be privy to that until after it's over.

However, I agree that at some point the government does need to act, even if it does result in violence, because you can't let the bullies win.

[Simon_Jester]

This isn't really me disagreeing with you, but basically-

Sure, we don't immediately respond with violence in hostage situations. But we do take steps like the following:
1) Make sure that the hostage-taker is surrounded and cannot simply escape without negotiation and without consequences.
2) Cut off means by which the hostage-taker can be reinforced, resupplied, or otherwise sustained (at least, without negotiation).
3) Make sure no active, ongoing crimes are taking place. A crack house cannot expect to operate unmolested indefinitely just because the owner threatens to shoot a hostage. Sooner or later the police will intervene violently if that happens.

Here, all three of these issues are basically being neglected so far as I can determine. The terrorists are getting regular care packages, are apparently not in any meaningful sense surrounded and could leave at any time so far as I know, and we don't even know all their identities. And active crimes ARE taking place because every day this farce goes on, further damage is done to the land of the wildlife refuge, to the privacy and security of the refuge's workers (who are innocent in this matter), and to the overall interest of the state in preventing armed sedition.

Also, in this situation, the only civilians in the area other than the criminals themselves are human shields brought there by the criminals, so this is hardly a normal hostage situation. Whereas it is credible that a gang of terrorists would shoot the people they kidnap if you cut off their power and water, it is not credible that these armed goons will shoot their own children.

[Thanas]

I don't often say this, but I basically agree with everything Simon says on this and the preceeding page.

[the atom]

Something about this whole ordeal stinks like shit. First the Bunkerville standoff, then this and no law enforcement agency, federal or otherwise has responded in any meaningful regard?

I'm legitimately starting to think money changed hands somewhere.

[Zaune]

I still think it has more to do with the possibility that these guys will fight back.

[General Zod]

I still think it has more to do with the possibility that these guys will fight back.

Frankly this is exactly the sort of situation we have SWAT for.

[Elheru Aran]

I still think it has more to do with the possibility that these guys will fight back.

Frankly this is exactly the sort of situation we have SWAT for.

I will second this. The police-- any kind of police, honestly, in the US, Federal or otherwise-- tend to have procedures in place for dealing with a hazardous situation where the criminals may be firing back. It's not *that* unexpected of a situation here.

And frankly that's what these people are-- criminals, plain and simple.

[General Zod]

Of course the other side is SWAT has gotten so used to easy targets consisting of raiding the homes of the elderly and throwing grenades in babies cribs that they simply might not be prepared for someone with actual weapons.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Of course the other side is SWAT has gotten so used to easy targets consisting of raiding the homes of the elderly and throwing grenades in babies cribs that they simply might not be prepared for someone with actual weapons.

Well, this would not be local SWAT. Were SWAT to be used for this, they would be federal; with better standards, training, and a higher degree of professionalism.

[Rogue 9]

Of course the other side is SWAT has gotten so used to easy targets consisting of raiding the homes of the elderly and throwing grenades in babies cribs that they simply might not be prepared for someone with actual weapons.

Well, this would not be local SWAT. Were SWAT to be used for this, they would be federal; with better standards, training, and a higher degree of professionalism.

Seconded. The county SWAT team here is just composed of senior beat cops who they give the fancy toys to. Federal marshals are in a whole different league.

[Dominus Atheos]

Maybe something happening:

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... _big-photo

Pete Santilli: Militants supporter says Ammon Bundy in custody

Two people have been shot and Ammon Bundy is in custody, according to a YouTube live stream by Pete Santilli, who was speaking outside a hospital in Burns.

Santilli, a self-styled journalist, took to social media to discuss the breaking development late Tuesday afternoon. He also reported that the FBI has told the protesters at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge that they are free to go and need to leave immediately.

Santilli said he was waiting at the hospital to confirm the reports of the shootings. The Oregonian/OregonLive could not independently confirm the reports.

Hwy 395 at US 20 near Malheur closed

Published: January 26, 2016, 5:35 pm Updated: January 26, 2016, 5:46 pm

Harney District Hospital is on lockdown, OPB reported.

http://koin.com/2016/01/26/malheur-mili ... -01262016/

Yesterday:

Heavy police presence noticed near Malheur

Published: January 25, 2016, 10:55 am Updated: January 25, 2016, 4:30 pm

BURNS, Ore. (KOIN) — Though law enforcement had no comment, militia leaders at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge said they’ve noticed a much heavier police presence in the area.

LaVoy Finicum, the Arizona rancher and de facto spokesperson for the occupiers, said they have people monitoring the situation who noticed armed vehicles and satellite equipment.

“I have given good information that they have brought in a semi-load of SWAT snowmobiles,” Finicum said. “They better hurry up because the snow is melting fast. And, I know they are doing a lot of rotating in and out. They did count over 200 more federal vehicles that arrived just 2 days ago.”

http://koin.com/2016/01/25/grant-co-she ... a-demands/

[Dominus Atheos]

Leader of Oregon occupation Ammon Bundy, three others arrested

HARNEY COUNTY, Ore. — KATU News has learned the leader of the armed occupation at Malheur Wildlife Refuge has been arrested, along with three other individuals Tuesday evening.

Sources tell KATU News there was some sort of engagement involving shots fired as the militia group was on its way to a meeting in John Day.

Highway 395 is closed between Burns and John Day.

The details of the arrest have not yet been released, but officials say there are injuries in the area.

Bundy and dozens of other individuals occupied the wildlife refuge earlier this month after two local ranchers were sent to prison for setting fires on federal land.

http://katu.com/news/local/leader-of-or ... s-arrested

[Borgholio]

Just confirmed by CNN Breaking News - Bundy and a few of his supporters were arrested at a traffic stop. Shots were fired, but they don't know who shot first.

Have to say...it's about goddamn time.

Edit - link

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/us/oregon ... index.html

(CNN)Federal authorities arrested Ammon Bundy, the leader of a group of protesters occupying a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon, and several of his followers in a traffic stop Tuesday, a law enforcement official told CNN.

Shots were fired after authorities made the stop, the source said. It's not clear who fired first.

Developing story - more to come

CNN's Evan Perez contributed to this report.

[bilateralrope]

I hope that nobody was injured during the shooting. I really hope that no members of the public were injured because the police were letting Bundy's group travel freely.

My guess is that is was Bundy or one of his supporters who shot first.

[the atom]

I hope that nobody was injured during the shooting. I really hope that no members of the public were injured because the police were letting Bundy's group travel freely.

My guess is that is was Bundy or one of his supporters who shot first.

Apparently some dude named Ryan Payne took a few rounds.

[the atom]

Scratch that, apparently at least one person is dead.

[bilateralrope]

Borgholio's article has been updated with:

One person was killed as authorities arrested a group of people involved with the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, the FBI and Oregon State Police said. The deceased was the subject of a federal probable cause arrest, officials said.

It sounds like the dead person was probably one of the militia members.

[Rogue 9]

Apparently some dude named Ryan Payne took a few rounds.

No, not him, though he's under arrest. Six arrests (Payne, Ammon and Ryan Bundy, Joe O'Shaughnessy of the Oath Keepers, the Bundy's bodyguard Brian Cavalier, and a woman named Shawna Cox) and one unnamed fatality. Not much more seems to be known at this point. I just really, really hope that the militia shot first and they have that fact on camera.

[Raj Ahten]

Who shot first probably won't matter too much to militia types and their fellow travelers, taped or not. They'd say any video was a fake. The real concern is if a lot of loons make the migration up there now that one of These assholes has martyred himself. It looks like this was a planned operation, so the FBI likely has planned for that given the reports of "hundreds" of new federal officers in the area.

[Alyrium Denryle]

If there is any thematically appropriate justice in the world, they will be fitted with radio collars or sat tags while in prison, and the USFWS will mock them by presenting talks about the Home Range of the Greater Striped Sovereign Citizen, with a little map of them walking around their cell, the mess hall, and the yard of USP McCreary...

[Alyrium Denryle]

Looks like it was LaVoy Finicum who was shot. Nothing of value has been lost from the world.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/lavoy-f ... t-reports/

LaVoy Finicum — the Oregon militant who gained fame for conducting a television interview from beneath a blue tarp — has reportedly been shot and killed by law enforcement officers.

The Arizona rancher, who was caring for 11 foster children with his wife, vowed at the start of the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Preserve that he was willing to die for his interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.

“I have been raised in the country all my life,” Finicum said in a widely viewed television interview with a rifle on his lap. “I love dearly to feel the wind on my face. To see the sun rise, to see the moon. I have no intention of spending any of my days in a concrete box.”

He was reportedly shot Tuesday evening during a shootout when law enforcement officers stopped a group of militants on their way to establish a shadow government in nearby Grant County.

State Rep. Michele Fiore (R-Nevada), who is close to the Bundy family and other militants, has identified Finicum as the militant who has been reportedly killed.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'd prefer no one had been killed. Both because of whatever fundamental value human life, even the lives of scumbags, has, and because I'd rather not give these bastards a martyr.

But provided the militia fired first, well, I can hardly fault the officers for defending themselves. And no doubt what happened will be closely scrutinized. Like Rogue 9, I very much hope the militia scumbags did fire first.

I'm very glad some of these assholes are going to face justice, in any case. Its long overdue. And while the US Justice System has many failings, I understand that it is pretty good about throwing the book at people who shoot at cops.

I just hope their followers don't go for some bloody last stand or something like that. If the place didn't have an airtight cordon of cops or troops around it before, it should now.

[Broomstick]

So, let me get this straight - Finicum, along with his wife, was responsible for no less than eleven foster children, but thought it was a good idea to run off and play rebel? Shouldn't he have been home taking care of the kids, earning a paycheck, etc? Or is that only for poor black men living in urban neighborhoods?

[Ralin]

So, let me get this straight - Finicum, along with his wife, was responsible for no less than eleven foster children, but thought it was a good idea to run off and play rebel? Shouldn't he have been home taking care of the kids, earning a paycheck, etc? Or is that only for poor black men living in urban neighborhoods?

Presumably he'd have said something like "I had a duty to help make sure they could grow up free in a non-fascist America" or something like that.

[Dominus Atheos]

So, let me get this straight - Finicum, along with his wife, was responsible for no less than eleven foster children, but thought it was a good idea to run off and play rebel?

And getting paid $115,000 for them.

Records show Finicum and his wife, Jeanette, have contracted for years with Catholic Charities Community Services in Arizona to serve as therapeutic foster parents to children with special needs. Catholic Charities reported in tax returns that it paid the Finicums more than $115,000 in 2009 alone.

Most of that money was probably orignally from the government.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/ari ... /79174754/