European refugee crisis thread

[Edi]

1300 km and change. However, most of that is trackless forest and there is surveillance of the entire border area on both sides. It is not easy to pass because of the distances and terrain involved, especially in winter. So traffic is limited to passing through the actual border crossings, and non-vehicular traffic is not allowed. Even if we can't close the border entirely, we can make things far more painful than they are now.

While Greece and Italy may not give a fuck about heir obligations as Schengen out-border countries, we do, so we're not going to tolerate the Russian bullshit, especially since most of the people coming form there have been living in Russia for years.

As an aside, a narrow sea crossing such as the English Channel is actually a lot harder to control than something like Finnish/Russian border, because anybody can take a rowboat and just try to get to the other side as best they are able. Depending on how good their navigation and control of the boat is, they can put themselves on your coastline where they choose. At first the situation may seem analogous, but it is not.

[madd0ct0r]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-35397109

One of the companies the UK gov is contracting the refugee housing out to decided the best way to control them and allocate meals was by forcing them all to wear brightly coloured wristbands that they were not allowed to take off...

[Crown]

While Greece and Italy may not give a fuck about heir obligations as Schengen out-border countries, we do, so we're not going to tolerate the Russian bullshit, especially since most of the people coming form there have been living in Russia for years.

Your internet tough guy routine is fucking dire Edi. Explain to me, within the limits of the law, that Greece and Italy are 'meant to be' doing?

[Purple]

While Greece and Italy may not give a fuck about heir obligations as Schengen out-border countries, we do, so we're not going to tolerate the Russian bullshit, especially since most of the people coming form there have been living in Russia for years.

Your internet tough guy routine is fucking dire Edi. Explain to me, within the limits of the law, that Greece and Italy are 'meant to be' doing?

My guess would be accepting all the refugees irregardless of if they can sustain them or not so that his country does not have to.

[Broomstick]

Part of the problem is that there are more people wanting to enter Europe than can do so without causing upheaval of some sort, even if the newcomers were all decent, kind, adaptable upstanding people willing to assimilate. Which, of course, not all of them are.

[ray245]

Part of the problem is that there are more people wanting to enter Europe than can do so without causing upheaval of some sort, even if the newcomers were all decent, kind, adaptable upstanding people willing to assimilate. Which, of course, not all of them are.

Human societies generally respond very poorly to a large movement of people, regardless of their origin. Especially when there is competition for scarce resources and everything.

[Edi]

While Greece and Italy may not give a fuck about heir obligations as Schengen out-border countries, we do, so we're not going to tolerate the Russian bullshit, especially since most of the people coming form there have been living in Russia for years.

Your internet tough guy routine is fucking dire Edi. Explain to me, within the limits of the law, that Greece and Italy are 'meant to be' doing?

Establishing some proper processing centers and procedures for the handling of the arrivals for starters. Obviously they are seeing far more arrivals than we did even at the peak of the spike last year, but it took us less than five days to set up processing protocols and centers and to get things on track.

In fact, we had a delegation from Greece, Italy and elsewhere come over here to see how we had done things so they could learn and apply the same lessons back home with regard to processing and registration of arrivals. That was months ago, and there hasn't been shit happening since. This neglect at the point of arrival makes everything harder for everyone else.

The next thing is not related to only Greece and Italy, but what the European Union should also be doing is setting up a centralized database of migrants so that if you get registered in one place, that information is automatically available everywhere. With modern technology, this is not actually a hard thing to do, slapping together a database server, writing a web based user interface for searching and entering information into it and putting it in production.

[cosmicalstorm]

A young girl was stabbed to death by a "lone coming child" yesterday. The Swedish police chief warns that several thousand new police are needed urgently to deal with an expected wave of migrant related crimes.

There's been a surge in sexual assaults and outright rapes in public baths recently, police will now patrol some public baths after children were raped.
Parts of the Central station in Stockholm is no longer safe according to police sources, Moroccan migrant gangs patrol the area looking to steal stuff, beat guards and molest/beat young girls.
The police can't do anything but arrest and release them within the hour since they claim to be children...

As I have predicted in the past, the Swedish migration situation is combustible and it's going to get a lot worse.

Miss Mezher, whose family are originally from Lebanon, had only worked at the accommodation for unaccompanied refugee children for a few months.

Her cousin described Miss Mezher as 'an angel' and told Swedish media: 'It is so terrible. She was a person who wanted to do good, who wanted to be good.

'And then he murdered her when she was doing her job. We have cried a lot. She was such a nice person, warm and happy.'

She added: 'It is the Swedish politicians' fault that she is dead.'

MailOnline reported that a number of girls have reportedly been sexually assaulted by young male asylum seekers at a public swimming pool in central Stockholm.

The alleged perpetrators are all 'unaccompanied minors' - young refugee boys who have arrived in Sweden seeking asylum without a parent or guardian.

The four cases involve girls under the age of 18 and all sexual assaults have taken place in hot tubs, pools or in the changing rooms if Eriksdalsbadet, Stockholm, in the past three weeks.

Eriksdalsbadet, which is the biggest aquatics centre in Stockholm, has previously reported an spike in sexual assaults - mainly incidents involving boys and young men groping women.

At the same time Swedish police have warned that Stockholm's main train station has become unsafe after being ‘taken over’ by dozens of Moroccan street children.

The all-male migrant teen gangs are spreading terror in the centre of the Swedish capital, stealing, groping girls and assaulting security guards, according to Stockholm police.

Members of the gangs, some as young as nine, roam central Stockholm day and night, refusing help provided by the Swedish authorities.

The attack also came as National Police Commissioner Dan Eliasson requested 4,100 additional officers and support staff to help fight against terrorism, carry out migrant deportations and police asylum facilities.

He said: 'We are forced to respond to many disturbances in asylum reception centres. In some places, this takes significant police resources.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... urder.html

[cosmicalstorm]

A dozen cops had to run for their lives from an asylum center were a large gang fight was taking place:

Police officers forced to escape from the asylum accommodation
A dozen policemen forced to escape through the emergency exit at the intervention of asylum accommodation Signalisten.
Comments (137)
Related
Read the VLT digital
- Click here -
It was Wednesday evening that the police were alerted there. The Migration Board did jacking when several people would move to another accommodation.
On the way, heard the patrols via police radio that there was a heated atmosphere of the accommodation, rather like a "hockey game" where the lug standing and screaming.
It all seems to have degenerated, according to an incident report from the police VLT taken part of. According to the description the patrol was met by a large crowd of people in a narrow corridor. The peloton should have stood and shouted in a chorus and a cabin with his fists in the air.
To enter one of the police officers who were with:
"It joins even more people behind us ... // .. I was mentally prepared to fight for my life ..// ... We are now ten police officers in the narrow corridor. I hear someone shout that there is an emergency. "
Police also writes that it was only because of a dog handler as they could get around the room.
"I felt we could easily be at a disadvantage in terms of environmental and counterparty number," writes the police in its report also calls for training in handling crowd in tight spaces.
VLT has unsuccessfully sought Lars burned, unit director at the Swedish Migration Board in Vasteras, for comment.

http://vlt.se/nyheter/vasteras/1.348861 ... asylboende

[Purple]

The next thing is not related to only Greece and Italy, but what the European Union should also be doing is setting up a centralized database of migrants so that if you get registered in one place, that information is automatically available everywhere. With modern technology, this is not actually a hard thing to do, slapping together a database server, writing a web based user interface for searching and entering information into it and putting it in production.

You might think that is a good idea. But they don't. Because they know that everyone they register would from that point onward be a person that can be deported back to them as soon as you or anyone else feels like it. And this is a legitimate fear. There have been people in this very thread that have been advocating dumping these people, in particular the criminal element on other EU nations.

[Edi]

The next thing is not related to only Greece and Italy, but what the European Union should also be doing is setting up a centralized database of migrants so that if you get registered in one place, that information is automatically available everywhere. With modern technology, this is not actually a hard thing to do, slapping together a database server, writing a web based user interface for searching and entering information into it and putting it in production.

You might think that is a good idea. But they don't. Because they know that everyone they register would from that point onward be a person that can be deported back to them as soon as you or anyone else feels like it. And this is a legitimate fear. There have been people in this very thread that have been advocating dumping these people, in particular the criminal element on other EU nations.

We're talking about a scale where all the old procedures are breaking down and deporting 800k people back to Greece and anotehr 250k to Italy is not going to be feasible, no matter what. But if Greece and Italy would rather be a part of the problem rather than a part of the solution, then I don't see why they shouldn't be treated exactly like that.

The way things are going at present, if there is no change, sooner rather than later Schengen will be dead (Dublin is dead already) and give it a few years and next in line will be the Geneva convention on refugees.

[Purple]

My point is that no matter what measure you propose to handle the migrant issue you have no right to complain if someone else does the same thing. So just like you don't want 800 kilomigrants neither do the Greeks or anyone else. And just like you don't want to shoulder all the costs of such a system neither do they. Bottom line is that these people are going to get shuffled around under an incompetent EU until either the EU breaks or you find a way to dump it on some poor country and break them. At this point I do not see any happy ending to the migrant crisis. At least none that is happy for both the migrants and the EU.

[Edi]

Yes, there is not going to be an easy solution to it, but actively dragging their feet on this (just like they did with the goddamn bailouts) is not going to make anything easier for anyone.

The migrants won't stay in one place and will seek better places in northern and central Europe, but having an efficient system of documentation in place is an absolute requirement for any solution to be even halfway effective somewhere down the line. It's going to take a lot of cooperation, compromises and all kinds of measures to get anywhere with this issue, probably including economic retaliation measures against nonparticipants like Eastern Europe, France and the like.

If someone tries to actively torpedo a holistic response to the crisis in order to advance their own narrow interests at the expense of everyone else, I have absolutely zero compunction about fucking them over hard in retaliation until they start being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. And this is not aimed at Greece or anyone else in particular. I am utterly egalitarian on that score.

[Purple]

If someone tries to actively torpedo a holistic response to the crisis in order to advance their own narrow interests at the expense of everyone else, I have absolutely zero compunction about fucking them over hard in retaliation until they start being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. And this is not aimed at Greece or anyone else in particular. I am utterly egalitarian on that score.

And as long as you have no problem with fucking them over for any reason at all you have absolutely no moral high ground to stand on when you accuse them of doing the same. For they can always point at you and say that you too would do in kind.

[Thanas]

Are you an imbecile?

Or how the fuck do you keep completely missing the point?

[Tribble]

How many migrants are expected this year?

[Crown]

Your internet tough guy routine is fucking dire Edi. Explain to me, within the limits of the law, that Greece and Italy are 'meant to be' doing?

Establishing some proper processing centers and procedures for the handling of the arrivals for starters. Obviously they are seeing far more arrivals than we did even at the peak of the spike last year, but it took us less than five days to set up processing protocols and centers and to get things on track.

Ah, so it's all the lazy, untrustworthy and incompetent Southern Europeans not doing a good enough job is it? Nothing, I suppose, to do with they being promised with 775 new border guards for FRONTEX to help with the registration, but as of the 21st of November only having 320 (source).

Also, you're not making it clear as to what these processing centers are processing exactly? Is it a registry of names and nationalities, or are you talking about Asylum it's self?

In fact, we had a delegation from Greece, Italy and elsewhere come over here to see how we had done things so they could learn and apply the same lessons back home with regard to processing and registration of arrivals. That was months ago, and there hasn't been shit happening since. This neglect at the point of arrival makes everything harder for everyone else.

Could you send a delegation to Germany since they haven't processed all their migrants yet either? Or is laziness and incompetence something you only associate with Southern European countries (especially those whose budget is dictated by fiat from Brussels)?

Yes, there is not going to be an easy solution to it, but actively dragging their feet on this (just like they did with the goddamn bailouts) is not going to make anything easier for anyone.

The austerity highway robbery scheme has nothing to do with this thread, other than to highlight the ridiculous expectation on a nation which is bankrupt and smaller than Germany to do a better job that Germany its self has managed because Finland managed to process 5 people. The fact that you bring it up, is another indication to me that you just think this is all due to the lazy, greedy untrustworthy Greeks rather than an unprecedented monumental fuck of European leaders as a whole.

[cosmicalstorm]

The Swedish government that welcomed everyone six months ago and referred to anti-immigrationers as racists and suspected Hitler worshippers have now turned around 180 degrees as reality is hitting them in the face with full force. Yesterday it was announced that 80.000 migrants will be deported from Sweden this year.

It's probably impossible to do this since the yearly deportations have been around 4000 so far. Personally I think a carrot is needed, it might be possible to bribe many of the welfare migrants from Africa by offering a lump sum of money if they move back home, while taking away the generous welfare that is currently attracting so many economic migrants.

The welfare is going to be cut anyway since the entire system is due to collapse, even without a global economic crisis.
With a global economic crisis it will collapse even worse.

It might make the current Socialdemocrat-Green party government fail since the green party were elected on a "open borders" policy.

If there is a re-election now the right parties might be able to grab more than 50 % of the votes, the anti-immigration party SD is now polling between 23-30 %. (They polled about 1-2 % this time of the year in 2006 so their popularity is exploding).

Sweden has been ruled by left leaning Social-democrats for most of the last century so I consider it an impressive act of stupidity of the Social democrats to enact policies that are so disastrous that this reign will now come to an end.

[Zaune]

And the refugees are going to go where else, exactly? Every country that hasn't made a bunch of ridiculous excuses not to do more than token gestures is already struggling.

We need to start imposing quotas on every country in Europe. Under threat of economic sanctions, loss of subsidies or expulsion from the EEA if needs be. Hell, have a couple of fighter aircraft "accidentally" fly over the capitals of hold-out countries with a full bomb-load if nothing else works.

Because the alternative is millions of people dying. Either cholera or TB or something will break out in one of the camps or one of the "first safe countries" will just start shooting them.

[The Romulan Republic]

If it were up to me, the US would be helping out its allies in Europe on this a hell of a lot more. This is honestly one of my biggest complaints against the current US government. And yet, what can those who want to do more do? The Right wing xenophobic (or pandering to xenophobes) scumbags in Congress and state governments will happily play obstructionist, which is about all they have any talent at.

[Starglider]

We need to start imposing quotas on every country in Europe. Under threat of economic sanctions, loss of subsidies or expulsion from the EEA if needs be. Hell, have a couple of fighter aircraft "accidentally" fly over the capitals of hold-out countries with a full bomb-load if nothing else works.

Who is 'we'? Are you hallucinating about being the leader of a giant extranational bleeding heart army (apparently a secret base full of fighter bombers) again?

Aside from the incredible stupidity of the notion that military threats are going to improve EU relations or attitudes to migrants, in reality almost everyone actually equipped and trained for such action is on the opposite side of this argument from you.

[madd0ct0r]

The Swedish government that welcomed everyone six months ago and referred to anti-immigrationers as racists and suspected Hitler worshippers have now turned around 180 degrees as reality is hitting them in the face with full force. Yesterday it was announced that 80.000 migrants will be deported from Sweden this year.

It's probably impossible to do this since the yearly deportations have been around 4000 so far. Personally I think a carrot is needed, it might be possible to bribe many of the welfare migrants from Africa by offering a lump sum of money if they move back home, while taking away the generous welfare that is currently attracting so many economic migrants.

The welfare is going to be cut anyway since the entire system is due to collapse, even without a global economic crisis.
With a global economic crisis it will collapse even worse.

It might make the current Socialdemocrat-Green party government fail since the green party were elected on a "open borders" policy.

If there is a re-election now the right parties might be able to grab more than 50 % of the votes, the anti-immigration party SD is now polling between 23-30 %. (They polled about 1-2 % this time of the year in 2006 so their popularity is exploding).

Sweden has been ruled by left leaning Social-democrats for most of the last century so I consider it an impressive act of stupidity of the Social democrats to enact policies that are so disastrous that this reign will now come to an end.

Bet you five pounds over PayPal the welfare state does not collapse

[cosmicalstorm]

It would be theoretically possible, just like building a manned base on the Moon is possible. But there are a lot of "if" surrounding it.

Personally I do not believe there will be any relocation within the EU, aside from some token few.
The anti immigrant sentiments are too strong everywhere, the immigrants themselves want to live where the getting is good (Swe, Ger, France) and EU will be destabilized by a cocktail of other stuff (Russia, Euro, World war Islam in the ME) which will make this kind of relocation impossible.

I fully expect borders with razorblades and machineguns and forced deportations that look like scenes from Soviet/Nazi times pretty soon, alarmist?

@Maddoctor

Whats your definition?
You are aware of the Swedish welfare state already collapsing? My hometown is making massive cuts to daycare and emergency hospitals to redirect funds to immigrants, this started in earnest in 2012 and the official warning is that it will escalate badly the next few years.

[Zaune]

Who is 'we'? Are you hallucinating about being the leader of a giant extranational bleeding heart army (apparently a secret base full of fighter bombers) again?

What do you mean 'again'? And I'm pretty sure Germany, Denmark and Sweden still have perfectly functioning air forces. They could do it if the political will was there.

But then I suppose ISIS make easier targets.

[Edi]

Crown, we've taken in over 32,000 refugees and we set up a working checkpoint system in under a week. We've offered help to Greece when asked, only to encounter refusal to cooperate and general foot-dragging on that issue. Even if all the Frontex personnel have not arrived, there is no reason why Greeks could not do the work according to the model provided. If that doesn't suit you, it's not my problem.

Who is 'we'? Are you hallucinating about being the leader of a giant extranational bleeding heart army (apparently a secret base full of fighter bombers) again?

What do you mean 'again'? And I'm pretty sure Germany, Denmark and Sweden still have perfectly functioning air forces. They could do it if the political will was there.

But then I suppose ISIS make easier targets.

Okay, now this is firmly into the "head inserted shoulders deep up arse" level of stupid. EU countries are not going to start saber rattling against each other. All that needs to be done is that the current net contributors who are facing the biggest pressure with the refugee crisis simply turn off the money tap and all those who are on the receiving end of the subsidies as net beneficiaries can go fuck themselves will be a big enough warning. Right now Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Austria and Germany are among the hardest hit net contributors and the countries who have taken in the most refugees (aside from Greece, which is the entry point).

Together they also have quite a bit of influence on the EU as a whole and if no help is forthcoming from the others who have been happy to take EU money, there will sooner or later be repercussions on that front. Much more effective than some penis compensatory displays of "Boo, we have fighters!", to which everyone else goes "Ooh, we're scared! Here, have some modern AA missiles!".