150 armed Militia occupy federal property in Oregon.

[Lord Revan]

Quite frankly I'm not surpriced that these people would be "goverment has to do everything I want it to do for me, but I don't have to do jackshit for them" type.

[LaCroix]

You see 11 foster children, I see a potential child army in training. No wonder CPS reconsidered the suitability if the foster dad is taking part in a armed occupation(s) of federal property.

[Borgholio]

He was reportedly shot Tuesday evening during a shootout when law enforcement officers stopped a group of militants on their way to establish a shadow government in nearby Grant County.

A shadow government. Seriously, if they had been trying to do this and they were Muslim, they'd all be dead or locked up by now.

[Raw Shark]

You see 11 foster children, I see a potential child army in training. No wonder CPS reconsidered the suitability if the foster dad is taking part in a armed occupation(s) of federal property.

Potential child army in training, maybe. State-funded ranch labor, definitely. Like the Bundys, Finnicum's beef with the Feds centered around grazing rights for his thousands of cattle. He was a hypocrite who was more than willing to suck the government teat when it suited him.

[Alyrium Denryle]

What is REALLY funny is that his death probably qualifies at least the ones arrested when he died, and possibly the entire lot of them, for felony murder charges. Something that makes me exceedingly happy.

[The Romulan Republic]

What is REALLY funny is that his death probably qualifies at least the ones arrested when he died, and possibly the entire lot of them, for felony murder charges. Something that makes me exceedingly happy.

That does have a certain ironic justice too it.

[Simon_Jester]

Could someone remind me why the felony murder charges would be justified?

Also, I must admit that this puts the lie to my mistaken belief that the members of the occupying group were free to come and go without being tracked.

[The Romulan Republic]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think their's a principle in US law that if you are committing a crime, and someone dies as a result, you can be charged for murder even if you didn't kill them.

[Gaidin]

Could someone remind me why the felony murder charges would be justified?

Also, I must admit that this puts the lie to my mistaken belief that the members of the occupying group were free to come and go without being tracked.

Without being tracked? Nah. Well. Someone might of deceived someone if that was actually said. A well played card if you ask me.

[RogueIce]

It's a specific set of felonies that one (or the group) must be committing, not just "any crime" will do. And in this case, it depends on whether they're being charged under Federal, state (Oregon) or possibly both sets of laws.

Anyway, felony murder for the Feds (Source):
Federal law classifies felony murder as first degree murder. It lists the felonies that can form the basis for a felony murder charge in a prosecution by the U.S. government:
•arson
•escape
•murder
•kidnapping
•treason
•espionage
•sabotage
•sexual abuse
•child abuse
•burglary, and
•robbery.
(18 U.S.C. § 1111(a).)

Meanwhile, for Oregon (Wikipedia):
The predicate felonies are:
•Arson in the first degree
•Criminal mischief in the first degree by means of an explosive
•Burglary in the first degree
•Escape in the first degree
•Kidnapping in the first or second degree
•Robbery in the first degree
•Any felony sexual offense in the first degree
•Compelling prostitution
•Assault in the first or second degree against a victim younger than 14

Oregon also provides some affirmative defense, from the same Wikipedia article:
§ 163.115(3) provides affirmative defenses to murder under the felony murder rule. It is an affirmative defense that the defendant:
•Was not the only participant in the underlying crime;
•Did not commit or solicit the homicidal act;
•Was not armed by a deadly weapon;
•Had no reasonable ground to believe that any other participant was armed with a deadly weapon;
•Had no reasonable ground to believe that any other participant intended to engage in conduct likely to result in death.

So basically it all comes down to what they're charged with, who does the charging, and as ever the specific circumstances of what went down.

And in any event I think it would be a stretch of epic proportions to charge everyone at the Refuge under a felony murder provision over this incident. At best, the people with the deceased in the vehicle, if they qualify. But the whole lot? I very much doubt it.

[Raw Shark]

What is REALLY funny is that his death probably qualifies at least the ones arrested when he died, and possibly the entire lot of them, for felony murder charges. Something that makes me exceedingly happy.

You want funny? I've got your funny:

Oregon Militia Idiots Promise to Leave if Chris Christie Can Beat Them in a Sumo Match

I can't make this shit up.

[Alyrium Denryle]

It's a specific set of felonies that one (or the group) must be committing, not just "any crime" will do. And in this case, it depends on whether they're being charged under Federal, state (Oregon) or possibly both sets of laws.

Anyway, felony murder for the Feds (Source):
Federal law classifies felony murder as first degree murder. It lists the felonies that can form the basis for a felony murder charge in a prosecution by the U.S. government:
•arson
•escape
•murder
•kidnapping
•treason
•espionage
•sabotage
•sexual abuse
•child abuse
•burglary, and
•robbery.
(18 U.S.C. § 1111(a).)

Meanwhile, for Oregon (Wikipedia):
The predicate felonies are:
•Arson in the first degree
•Criminal mischief in the first degree by means of an explosive
•Burglary in the first degree
•Escape in the first degree
•Kidnapping in the first or second degree
•Robbery in the first degree
•Any felony sexual offense in the first degree
•Compelling prostitution
•Assault in the first or second degree against a victim younger than 14

Oregon also provides some affirmative defense, from the same Wikipedia article:
§ 163.115(3) provides affirmative defenses to murder under the felony murder rule. It is an affirmative defense that the defendant:
•Was not the only participant in the underlying crime;
•Did not commit or solicit the homicidal act;
•Was not armed by a deadly weapon;
•Had no reasonable ground to believe that any other participant was armed with a deadly weapon;
•Had no reasonable ground to believe that any other participant intended to engage in conduct likely to result in death.

So basically it all comes down to what they're charged with, who does the charging, and as ever the specific circumstances of what went down.

And in any event I think it would be a stretch of epic proportions to charge everyone at the Refuge under a felony murder provision over this incident. At best, the people with the deceased in the vehicle, if they qualify. But the whole lot? I very much doubt it.

Point of information: Provided they shot first (and lets be honest, that seems pretty likely given who these people are, but we will find out for sure later) they committed attempted murder, which qualifies under state and federal felony murder statutes.

But yeah, it probably would not apply to the whole refuge population. Just the ones currently under arrest.

[RogueIce]

Point of information: Provided they shot first (and lets be honest, that seems pretty likely given who these people are, but we will find out for sure later) they committed attempted murder, which qualifies under state and federal felony murder statutes.

Possibly not.

Nine people were in two vehicles. They both stopped, but the lead vehicle sped away, the source told NBC. The vehicle hit a snowbank and Finicum jumped out "brandishing a firearm." He was shot and killed.

Source

However there is a press conference planned for 10:30am (PST I presume, since it was a local channel reporting) this morning, so I expect we'll be getting more details within the next couple of hours.

EDIT: Forgot to post what the reported charge was:

"All eight arrested protesters face a felony charge of conspiracy to impede officers from their official duties by force, intimidation or threats, the FBI said."

It's probable that there will be additional charges, of course. But this works to get them into custody during these initial stages. But this initial charge wouldn't support felony murder, I don't think. We'll see where it goes from here, of course.

[General Zod]

It's a specific set of felonies that one (or the group) must be committing, not just "any crime" will do. And in this case, it depends on whether they're being charged under Federal, state (Oregon) or possibly both sets of laws.

Anyway, felony murder for the Feds (Source):
Federal law classifies felony murder as first degree murder. It lists the felonies that can form the basis for a felony murder charge in a prosecution by the U.S. government:
•arson
•escape
•murder
•kidnapping
•treason
•espionage
•sabotage
•sexual abuse
•child abuse
•burglary, and
•robbery.
(18 U.S.C. § 1111(a).)

Meanwhile, for Oregon (Wikipedia):
The predicate felonies are:
•Arson in the first degree
•Criminal mischief in the first degree by means of an explosive
•Burglary in the first degree
•Escape in the first degree
•Kidnapping in the first or second degree
•Robbery in the first degree
•Any felony sexual offense in the first degree
•Compelling prostitution
•Assault in the first or second degree against a victim younger than 14

Oregon also provides some affirmative defense, from the same Wikipedia article:
§ 163.115(3) provides affirmative defenses to murder under the felony murder rule. It is an affirmative defense that the defendant:
•Was not the only participant in the underlying crime;
•Did not commit or solicit the homicidal act;
•Was not armed by a deadly weapon;
•Had no reasonable ground to believe that any other participant was armed with a deadly weapon;
•Had no reasonable ground to believe that any other participant intended to engage in conduct likely to result in death.

So basically it all comes down to what they're charged with, who does the charging, and as ever the specific circumstances of what went down.

And in any event I think it would be a stretch of epic proportions to charge everyone at the Refuge under a felony murder provision over this incident. At best, the people with the deceased in the vehicle, if they qualify. But the whole lot? I very much doubt it.

Point of information: Provided they shot first (and lets be honest, that seems pretty likely given who these people are, but we will find out for sure later) they committed attempted murder, which qualifies under state and federal felony murder statutes.

But yeah, it probably would not apply to the whole refuge population. Just the ones currently under arrest.

They were also caught red handed trying to break into federal computers, so they could get tagged under espionage just for funsies.

[Civil War Man]

It's about time that the Feds did something about this.

In other news, There are still some holed up at the refuge

FBI officials have established checkpoints around the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge as a handful of armed militants remain inside.

OPB spoke with the new leaders inside the compound, which include militant Jason Patrick. He said the remaining group of militants are prepared to stay for the long run.

i just spoke to the new leaders -- including jason patrick - They say that 5-6 ppl had a meeting, and by consensus they decided to stay. 1/2

they will not leave, "we're not cowards like the rest," say they're prepared to die. 2/2 #MalheurOccupation

The children that OPB reported were inside the compound before the standoff are not in the building.

In a press release early Wednesday, FBI officials said any vehicles approaching the established checkpoints will be stopped and searched, and all occupants of the vehicles must present identification.

Law enforcement officials said they will arrest anyone who is not compliant with the checkpoint procedure. The only people allowed to pass the checkpoints will be local ranchers, according to the FBI.

“Anyone coming out of the refuge will have his or her identification confirmed and any associated vehicles searched,” the FBI stated.

The monthlong occupation of an Oregon wildlife refuge took a turn toward a possible conclusion Tuesday night – with the death of militant Robert LaVoy Finicum after an officer involved shooting. At least eight others were arrested, including the leader of the takeover Ammon Bundy.

This will either end anticlimactically or will get ugly, depending on whether the people left over decide to commit suicide by cop or burn themselves like the Waco cult in an attempt to become martyrs.

The end, one way or the other, may not be far off, though. According to the Twitter account of the reporter in the linked article, at about 8:00 AM PST, lot of the journalists who have been covering this whole ordeal at the refuge left because they feel it is no longer safe to be there.

[Borgholio]

The one remaining question I have is how other militias are going to handle this. Is Bundy's dad down in Nevada going to ride to the rescue or just fortify his ranch and wait for the evil government to attack?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Given what was on those machines, probably not espionage.

[RogueIce]

They were also caught red handed trying to break into federal computers, so they could get tagged under espionage just for funsies.

Given what was on those machines, probably not espionage.

Agreed.

Even a cursory look at the headings of the relevant federal law make it exceedingly unlikely a Federal Wildlife Refuge would have anything that would be remotely covered under this law. Since it mostly seems to cover defense information and NASA.

[Borgholio]

More than likely simply charged with breaking and entering into a secured federal computer system. Classified or not, unauthorized access into a government computer is still a crime.

[Flagg]

I don't know about Federal/ Oregon law, but in some states you can be charged with murder if an accomplice is killed during the commission of a felony. Fingers crossed!

[RogueIce]

More than likely simply charged with breaking and entering into a secured federal computer system. Classified or not, unauthorized access into a government computer is still a crime.

Most certainly, but not espionage like what Zod was talking about. I would suspect any charges relating from this to come later on down the line, though. IIRC there's a difference between breaking into the system and simply handling/receiving the information (though don't quote me on that; I don't feel like looking it up right now). If that's the case, though, they'll have to establish who actually did what in order to sort out those charges.

I don't know about Federal/ Oregon law, but in some states you can be charged with murder if an accomplice is killed during the commission of a felony. Fingers crossed!

It's not just any felony, but specific felonies. I listed the predicate felonies above. If they end up charged with one of those, then maybe. Or maybe not. Depends on whether they connect the actual shooting with said felonies. Possible, if they were attempting to apprehend based upon those felonies. And knew they were going to charge them with it. But it may not happen. The charge they currently are being held under, for example, would not really qualify.

Should be a press conference within the hour, hopefully we will learn more.

[Flagg]

More than likely simply charged with breaking and entering into a secured federal computer system. Classified or not, unauthorized access into a government computer is still a crime.

Most certainly, but not espionage like what Zod was talking about. I would suspect any charges relating from this to come later on down the line, though. IIRC there's a difference between breaking into the system and simply handling/receiving the information (though don't quote me on that; I don't feel like looking it up right now). If that's the case, though, they'll have to establish who actually did what in order to sort out those charges.

I don't know about Federal/ Oregon law, but in some states you can be charged with murder if an accomplice is killed during the commission of a felony. Fingers crossed!

It's not just any felony, but specific felonies. I listed the predicate felonies above. If they end up charged with one of those, then maybe. Or maybe not. Depends on whether they connect the actual shooting with said felonies. Possible, if they were attempting to apprehend based upon those felonies. And knew they were going to charge them with it. But it may not happen. The charge they currently are being held under, for example, would not really qualify.

Should be a press conference within the hour, hopefully we will learn more.

Shit, don't know how I missed all of that. Sorry, and thanks for posting that.

[General Zod]

Given what was on those machines, probably not espionage.

Does the content matter?

[Gaidin]

Does the content matter?

For certain crimes, likely.

[General Zod]

Does the content matter?

For certain crimes, likely.

I mean specifically for espionage charges.