European refugee crisis thread

[Grumman]

But then I suppose ISIS make easier targets.

Yes, Zaune, a bunch of genocidal rapists that are trying to build a new continent-spanning fascist empire are a stronger justification for sabre-rattling than countries being wary about doubling down on the problem of European Muslims who believe in Islamic principles over European principles.

[Broomstick]

It's probably impossible to do this since the yearly deportations have been around 4000 so far. Personally I think a carrot is needed, it might be possible to bribe many of the welfare migrants from Africa by offering a lump sum of money if they move back home, while taking away the generous welfare that is currently attracting so many economic migrants.

Why would money induce someone to return to an active war zone when that same money could enable them to stay in Europe a bit longer, or buy transportation to somewhere else?

And the refugees are going to go where else, exactly? Every country that hasn't made a bunch of ridiculous excuses not to do more than token gestures is already struggling.

And that is the second problem with the “carrot” scheme you propose.

Personally I do not believe there will be any relocation within the EU, aside from some token few.
The anti immigrant sentiments are too strong everywhere, the immigrants themselves want to live where the getting is good (Swe, Ger, France)

In other words, you're saying the immigrants are rational people? Of course they want to live where the living is good! Who doesn't? They're acting in their own best interests.

So maybe treating them as rational people with self-interest would work better. Such as sitting them down and saying “here's how the rules here differ from the laws where you come from, here's how you get work, here's what you need to know to be successful here.”

[madd0ct0r]

It would be theoretically possible, just like building a manned base on the Moon is possible. But there are a lot of "if" surrounding it.

Personally I do not believe there will be any relocation within the EU, aside from some token few.
The anti immigrant sentiments are too strong everywhere, the immigrants themselves want to live where the getting is good (Swe, Ger, France) and EU will be destabilized by a cocktail of other stuff (Russia, Euro, World war Islam in the ME) which will make this kind of relocation impossible.

I fully expect borders with razorblades and machineguns and forced deportations that look like scenes from Soviet/Nazi times pretty soon, alarmist?

@Maddoctor

Whats your definition?
You are aware of the Swedish welfare state already collapsing? My hometown is making massive cuts to daycare and emergency hospitals to redirect funds to immigrants, this started in earnest in 2012 and the official warning is that it will escalate badly the next few years.

Definition of welfare stateas by Madd0c0t0r 2016:
Access to free at point of delivery healthcare, free education up to age 18, unemployment/disability/pensions support sufficient to live on (includes subsided housing).
In terms of stats = 0 deaths from starvation. 99+% literacy within citizens.
I further predict social expenditure as % of GDP will not decrease.

I will make a further bet for a further £5 that we will not see "borders with razorblades and machinesguns" in any of the nordic countries (possibly barring finland's border with russia) in the next 18 months

Do you accept either bet?

[Thanas]

I am not sure how you can say social expenditures as % of GDP will not rise, Schäuble has already earmarked 12billion for refugees.

[madd0ct0r]

not sure wether you misread me or are arguing short term vs long term.
A collapse would imply it would cease.

[Thanas]

Yeah, I misread decrease as increase. My apologies.

[ray245]

So maybe treating them as rational people with self-interest would work better. Such as sitting them down and saying “here's how the rules here differ from the laws where you come from, here's how you get work, here's what you need to know to be successful here.”

Treating them as people would be a good start, instead of treating them as some fantasy archetype. They are either being portrayed as the future engineers/doctors/scientist or the next woman-beating, Qua'ran-thumping conservatives.

I think what is needed would be trying to get some successful refugees into law enforcement jobs, to help the police force bridge some of the cultural divide that will arise. Having all the cultural lessons is nothing without having successful migrants/former refugees to give them the advise and experience to do so.

Gaining cultural knowledge is a soft skill that can't be easily taught in a classroom. You need to get that from daily exposure and interactions with people from family and friends. The difficulty is it is easy for newcomers to retreat into a comfort zone of interacting with people of a similar culture the moment they feel alienated ( doesn't have to be due to discrimination). How many German/Swedish/Denmark friends could they make and get along really well with during this process of integration, when they have severe problems learning the language to begin with?

[Sir Sirius]

So maybe treating them as rational people with self-interest would work better. Such as sitting them down and saying

1)“here's how the rules here differ from the laws where you come from...

2) here's how you get work...

3) here's what you need to know to be successful here.”

1) The laws the migrants are taking the most flak for breaking aren't unique to Europe. After all theft, rape, stabbing people and murder are illegal pretty damn universally, and have been so for a long long time. I suppose you could educated the migrants about the differences in laws that actually do differ from country to country, like tax legislation and generally accepted accounting practices... but migrants breaking these hasn't a problem to begin with.

2 and 3) Both of these are very much a case "easier said then done". No one in Europe has ever been able to provide anything even approximating genuinely functional advice on these issues to migrants from the Middle-East and Africa. The employment rates of these groups are worryingly low in every European country in which substantial numbers of them live in. Now if you have bright ideas to present, I'd sure love to hear them.

[Purple]

Okay, now this is firmly into the "head inserted shoulders deep up arse" level of stupid. EU countries are not going to start saber rattling against each other. All that needs to be done is that the current net contributors who are facing the biggest pressure with the refugee crisis simply turn off the money tap and all those who are on the receiving end of the subsidies as net beneficiaries can go fuck themselves will be a big enough warning. Right now Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Austria and Germany are among the hardest hit net contributors and the countries who have taken in the most refugees (aside from Greece, which is the entry point).

Together they also have quite a bit of influence on the EU as a whole and if no help is forthcoming from the others who have been happy to take EU money, there will sooner or later be repercussions on that front. Much more effective than some penis compensatory displays of "Boo, we have fighters!", to which everyone else goes "Ooh, we're scared! Here, have some modern AA missiles!".

So your solution is for the rich EU countries to antagonize the rest massively by blackmailing them with the threat of withholding money? Do you not think that this would lead to those countries simply picking up and leaving the EU? What motivation is there for them to stay in a union where one side blackmails the other?

[LaCroix]

2 and 3) Both of these are very much a case "easier said then done". No one in Europe has ever been able to provide anything even approximating genuinely functional advice on these issues to migrants from the Middle-East and Africa. The employment rates of these groups are worryingly low in every European country in which substantial numbers of them live in. Now if you have bright ideas to present, I'd sure love to hear them.

The problem is as simple as one word.

Qualification.

Most of the migrants that entered Europe to this day are massively underqualified. Two examples - a friend of mine is a Nigerian immigrant. He knows a lot of people that came here, as well, and they were deemed well educated back home, but here, they don't even pass junior high. And high educated does mean "college for seamstressing", "college for mechanics", which only a few of them manage to attend and is considered a pretty big thing back home, as he always proudly points out. They only qualify for menial labor, and there is only so much need for laborers and kitchen aids. Even their English is practically useless, for they do use a very heavy slang version that is nigh incomprehensible for people not used to it, so they have to be retaught that, as well.

The Syrian refgugees are (in part) better qualified, but only *just*

Another friend of mine is a (medical)doctor and has now a Syrian refugee doctor as a collegue in the hospital she works in. He knows his stuff quite well for standard stuff, but most of the time, she needs to explain instruments, machines and medications to him, as he never saw them before. He's been a practicing doctor in a hospital for decades (he's late 40s), but is basically no more useful than a fresh from university *scrub*.

[Thanas]

So your solution is for the rich EU countries to antagonize the rest massively by blackmailing them with the threat of withholding money? Do you not think that this would lead to those countries simply picking up and leaving the EU? What motivation is there for them to stay in a union where one side blackmails the other?

So your solution is to have the rich countries pay indefinitely while receiving no help whatsoever in return? Quite simple, if the countries want to receive money without helping out, then we are better off without them anyway.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Another friend of mine is a (medical)doctor and has now a Syrian refugee doctor as a collegue in the hospital she works in. He knows his stuff quite well for standard stuff, but most of the time, she needs to explain instruments, machines and medications to him, as he never saw them before. He's been a practicing doctor in a hospital for decades (he's late 40s), but is basically no more useful than a fresh from university *scrub*.

So, a bit like cuban doctors in that sense? Or doing one's ENTIRE medical practice with Doctors Without Borders. Sure they know their stuff very well, but have been hampered by basically not having the resources to practice modern medicine and are thus stuck in the 1950s?

[Purple]

So your solution is to have the rich countries pay indefinitely while receiving no help whatsoever in return? Quite simple, if the countries want to receive money without helping out, then we are better off without them anyway.

Why else do you think the poor countries joined the EU? It certainly wasn't out of a feeling of eternal brotherhood and junk. The rich countries called them in to get access to cheap tariff free markets, resources and labor and they joined for the monetary rewards.

[Edi]

So your solution is to have the rich countries pay indefinitely while receiving no help whatsoever in return? Quite simple, if the countries want to receive money without helping out, then we are better off without them anyway.

Why else do you think the poor countries joined the EU? It certainly wasn't out of a feeling of eternal brotherhood and junk. The rich countries called them in to get access to cheap tariff free markets, resources and labor and they joined for the monetary rewards.

Yes, and when the circumstances change, then everyone is expected to adapt to them and if there is no willingness to do that in any way, then fuck them.

[cosmicalstorm]

@Maddoctor

Definition of welfare stateas by Madd0c0t0r 2016:
Access to free at point of delivery healthcare, free education up to age 18, unemployment/disability/pensions support sufficient to live on (includes subsided housing).
In terms of stats = 0 deaths from starvation. 99+% literacy within citizens.
I further predict social expenditure as % of GDP will not decrease.

We are already far away from 99% literacy, most Somalis (several tens of thousands) are adult illiterates, somali is an oral culture.
We lack several hundred thousand apartments over the next 5-10 period.
Access to free dental care and free health care is falling rapidly, you have to wait 5 years for a dentist in some towns if you want the state subsidized stuff.
- Sweden will lack several hundred thousand apartments over the next 5-10 year period, they won't be built in time, so we will have massive overcrowding with all the problems that bring, and massive homelessness.
- We lack thousands of teachers that wont exist when they are needed.
- We lack thousands of police and police are quitting in large numbers as we speak.
- We lack thousands of social workers, their workload is already absurd.
- We gutted our defense to pay for this so we can't call on any large armed forces.

I'm not expecting it to work out nice at all, if the deportation of 80.000 thing get started it's going to come close to a civil war this year.

As for the borders: To clarify I think the nasty borders will be in the EU periphery, not in Scandinavia. Sorry if I was unclear about that.

In a way you already lost.

But I'm a chicken, what makes me weary about those bets is how to prove them later on, mainly because I expect the situation to be kind of Sovietic in the sense that these benefits will continue to exist on paper, in theory. But IRL they won't.

For example, beware personal anecdotes: in my previous hometown you still had access to free dental care, in theory. But in reality you had to wait 5 years or more in line. That was caused by a combination of two things: The Folktandvård clinic could not offer wages that attracted dentists to move there and the clinic was overwhelmed by emergency dental care for mostly Somali immigrants. And that was back in 2012, the situation there is a lot worse now.

My father is supposed to get a free surgery for his bad leg, only that the surgery is postponed every time it's supposed to happen. Once it was a big gang fight from the suburb resulting in a riot at the hospital as the participating clans arrived to make sure their relatives received the best care. The other time they simply did not have any available doctors due to various emergencys. This is a hospital that has had big savings three times in a row, savings stealthily reported as being done to "reinforce the social program in the northeastern part of the town" (i.e immigrant benefits).

------------------------------------------------------

Moving on:

Usually pro-refugee The Economist have dire warnings for Germany (the situation is even worse for Sweden):

What if nothing works? Despite the pressure Mrs Merkel is unlikely to shut Germany’s borders, because she wants to preserve the EU’s passport-free Schengen zone. But other plans are being drawn up inside the chancellery, including a sealing of the Greece-Macedonia border across which most refugees travel to reach Germany. Once refugees see that Greece has become a dead end, says one German official, they will think twice about setting sail from Turkey. Other routes will no doubt emerge, perhaps across the Black Sea. But the plan might at least buy time.

Such schemes show how far Germany has travelled since its “welcome culture” lifted European liberals’ hearts last summer. Back then Mrs Merkel’s model presented an inspiring alternative to the small-minded xenophobia of leaders like Hungary’s Viktor Orban. Now, after the chaos and trauma of the past six months, Mr Orban feels vindicated and the chancellor looks increasingly isolated. Germany has tried to lead in Europe, but others will not follow. To Mrs Merkel’s immense frustration, other EU countries agree to policies like relocation and then ignore them. While German officials try to knit together the geopolitics of the crisis, from Iraq to Turkey and Russia, most other countries would prefer it simply to go away. As for the European Commission, which sometimes looks like the chancellor’s last ally, it has gamely advanced common policies but is too weak to enforce them. “The European dream is vanishing,” sighs one of its senior officials.

Mrs Merkel, to her credit, is desperate to keep it alive. But time is running out. Germany has perhaps two months to hope that the jigsaw pieces fall into place before the refugee flows pick up again, and each part of the job gets harder every day. Can Germany still handle this? We will continue to make the case, says a government official. “But nobody believes it.”

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21 ... y-ill-wind

Broomstick

You seem a bit confused about the which migrants have arrived in Sweden recently. Most of them are actually not from areas where life is impossible. Here is a chart from this past fall showing an average week with 10.000 arrivals. Some parts of Afghanistan and Iraq have warfare and life is far from great but people live there and Sweden sends many vacation flights to these countries on any given week.
Also note that the Swedish definition of "Syrian" is anyone who claims to be from Syria so the number is probably inflated, seeing as how Syrians are given automatic permanent residency by default.
And yes, they are rational, I'd certainly done the same thing. But what attracted them here is about to go away, Sweden is a few inches away from electing politicians that will cut those benefits and make them a tax payers only option. Even if we don't elect those politicians the bitter reality is that unless we enact full communism and confiscate all money of the rich there won't be enough cash to fund the welfare system.
I'm reminded of the kind of personal financial journey you have chronicled on this board, it will apply to many Swedes soon I suspect.

Chart:

[jwl]

What's this about "closing the Greece-Macedonia border"? Macedonia isn't in Germany, it isn't even in the EU, what can Merkel even do about it?

[Purple]

Yes, and when the circumstances change, then everyone is expected to adapt to them and if there is no willingness to do that in any way, then fuck them.

And what happens when after a while the conditions have changed again and you again want those tariff free markets and cheap resources and labor and the nations you told to get fucked tell you to get fucked in turn? Your attitude can be described as how to destroy the EU the instant it hits a speed bump.

What's this about "closing the Greece-Macedonia border"? Macedonia isn't in Germany, it isn't even in the EU, what can Merkel even do about it?

It is my understanding that the non-EU Balkan countries essentially subside on various aid programs from the EU as they go through an integration and joining process that can be described as permanently being "10 years from today". So presumably she can do the same she can do to any of the poorer EU countries. That being blackmail them with threats of cutting off the money.

[cosmicalstorm]

What's this about "closing the Greece-Macedonia border"? Macedonia isn't in Germany, it isn't even in the EU, what can Merkel even do about it?

Make it impossible for them to continue playing "pass it along". As soon as the relief valve to Swe/Ger is closed those countries will seal up rapidly. I suspect there will be some nasty scenes from Balkan soon as they expel whatever migrants who refuse to leave.

[madd0ct0r]

@Maddoctor

Definition of welfare stateas by Madd0c0t0r 2016:
Access to free at point of delivery healthcare, free education up to age 18, unemployment/disability/pensions support sufficient to live on (includes subsided housing).
In terms of stats = 0 deaths from starvation. 99+% literacy within citizens.
I further predict social expenditure as % of GDP will not decrease.

We are already far away from 99% literacy, most Somalis (several tens of thousands) are adult illiterates, somali is an oral culture.
We lack several hundred thousand apartments over the next 5-10 period.
Access to free dental care and free health care is falling rapidly, you have to wait 5 years for a dentist in some towns if you want the state subsidized stuff.
- Sweden will lack several hundred thousand apartments over the next 5-10 year period, they won't be built in time, so we will have massive overcrowding with all the problems that bring, and massive homelessness.
- We lack thousands of teachers that wont exist when they are needed.
- We lack thousands of police and police are quitting in large numbers as we speak.
- We lack thousands of social workers, their workload is already absurd.
- We gutted our defense to pay for this so we can't call on any large armed forces.

I'm not expecting it to work out nice at all, if the deportation of 80.000 thing get started it's going to come close to a civil war this year.

As for the borders: To clarify I think the nasty borders will be in the EU periphery, not in Scandinavia. Sorry if I was unclear about that.

In a way you already lost.

But I'm a chicken, what makes me weary about those bets is how to prove them later on, mainly because I expect the situation to be kind of Sovietic in the sense that these benefits will continue to exist on paper, in theory. But IRL they won't.

For example, beware personal anecdotes: in my previous hometown you still had access to free dental care, in theory. But in reality you had to wait 5 years or more in line. That was caused by a combination of two things: The Folktandvård clinic could not offer wages that attracted dentists to move there and the clinic was overwhelmed by emergency dental care for mostly Somali immigrants. And that was back in 2012, the situation there is a lot worse now.

My father is supposed to get a free surgery for his bad leg, only that the surgery is postponed every time it's supposed to happen. Once it was a big gang fight from the suburb resulting in a riot at the hospital as the participating clans arrived to make sure their relatives received the best care. The other time they simply did not have any available doctors due to various emergencys. This is a hospital that has had big savings three times in a row, savings stealthily reported as being done to "reinforce the social program in the northeastern part of the town" (i.e immigrant benefits).

------------------------------------------------------

Moving on:

Usually pro-refugee The Economist have dire warnings for Germany (the situation is even worse for Sweden):

What if nothing works? Despite the pressure Mrs Merkel is unlikely to shut Germany’s borders, because she wants to preserve the EU’s passport-free Schengen zone. But other plans are being drawn up inside the chancellery, including a sealing of the Greece-Macedonia border across which most refugees travel to reach Germany. Once refugees see that Greece has become a dead end, says one German official, they will think twice about setting sail from Turkey. Other routes will no doubt emerge, perhaps across the Black Sea. But the plan might at least buy time.

Such schemes show how far Germany has travelled since its “welcome culture” lifted European liberals’ hearts last summer. Back then Mrs Merkel’s model presented an inspiring alternative to the small-minded xenophobia of leaders like Hungary’s Viktor Orban. Now, after the chaos and trauma of the past six months, Mr Orban feels vindicated and the chancellor looks increasingly isolated. Germany has tried to lead in Europe, but others will not follow. To Mrs Merkel’s immense frustration, other EU countries agree to policies like relocation and then ignore them. While German officials try to knit together the geopolitics of the crisis, from Iraq to Turkey and Russia, most other countries would prefer it simply to go away. As for the European Commission, which sometimes looks like the chancellor’s last ally, it has gamely advanced common policies but is too weak to enforce them. “The European dream is vanishing,” sighs one of its senior officials.

Mrs Merkel, to her credit, is desperate to keep it alive. But time is running out. Germany has perhaps two months to hope that the jigsaw pieces fall into place before the refugee flows pick up again, and each part of the job gets harder every day. Can Germany still handle this? We will continue to make the case, says a government official. “But nobody believes it.”

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21 ... y-ill-wind

Broomstick

You seem a bit confused about the which migrants have arrived in Sweden recently. Most of them are actually not from areas where life is impossible. Here is a chart from this past fall showing an average week with 10.000 arrivals. Some parts of Afghanistan and Iraq have warfare and life is far from great but people live there and Sweden sends many vacation flights to these countries on any given week.
Also note that the Swedish definition of "Syrian" is anyone who claims to be from Syria so the number is probably inflated, seeing as how Syrians are given automatic permanent residency by default.
And yes, they are rational, I'd certainly done the same thing. But what attracted them here is about to go away, Sweden is a few inches away from electing politicians that will cut those benefits and make them a tax payers only option. Even if we don't elect those politicians the bitter reality is that unless we enact full communism and confiscate all money of the rich there won't be enough cash to fund the welfare system.
I'm reminded of the kind of personal financial journey you have chronicled on this board, it will apply to many Swedes soon I suspect.

Chart:

If you feel the welfare state has already collapsed than I fail to see why you are blaming refugees
There's plenty in Britain like you. Every year they say things are getting worse because that is more important to their world view than the facts.The daily mail makes a living on catering to them. It's an important part of their self identity - feeling better off than others but fearing they will lose the little they have.
Its important but not more important than five pounds.

sigh. I think you need to define your welfare state with stats. Waiting lists if thst is important to you.

[LaCroix]

Another friend of mine is a (medical)doctor and has now a Syrian refugee doctor as a collegue in the hospital she works in. He knows his stuff quite well for standard stuff, but most of the time, she needs to explain instruments, machines and medications to him, as he never saw them before. He's been a practicing doctor in a hospital for decades (he's late 40s), but is basically no more useful than a fresh from university *scrub*.

So, a bit like cuban doctors in that sense? Or doing one's ENTIRE medical practice with Doctors Without Borders. Sure they know their stuff very well, but have been hampered by basically not having the resources to practice modern medicine and are thus stuck in the 1950s?

Pretty much. It's quite tragic in a way - I don't want to be in his shoes when he realizes how many people he could have helped if he had access to the same stuff we had at that time.

[cosmicalstorm]

Another set of migration related news from today. I don't like where it's going but I hold my hands that the welfare and police system will survive this crisis.

Remember how police covering up migrant related crimes is just a racist myth? Well...

The security situation in Sweden is much worse than what has been reported so far, in October 2015 the swedish police began a massive program dubbed code 291 to censor as much migrant-crime related news as possible, (for political purposes it must be assumed, but I'm sure they will pull the "national security" bullshit usually used in Washington) several thousand police actions have thus been kept from the public. Only now that alternative media have begun digging into to it does the mainstream media decide to touch it.

(Google translate SWE-ENG)
Thousands of incidents of police special "migrantcode"


SVD REVEALS: Since October 2015 police records of efforts at including refugee accommodations. The events have been reported in a special code, R291, not published.

SVD can now reveal that it contains thousands of incidents - ranging from beatings and fights to attempt suicide, mental illness and bomb threat.

The situation in Sweden thousands of asylum accommodation has been largely unknown to the public. One reason is that the National Operational Department, NOA, the police previously assessed that all information related to the flow of refugees to be secret.

The events have had a special so-called relationskod: 291, something that DN reported on earlier this year.

"Regarding an Asset 291 that has become known to the media. The code is used as working for the daily situation report. The daily situation report is classified why it says there shall not be disclosed /.../ Nothing should be out in the paper path in force Alma to the command as long as it lasts. "

[...]

SvD can now reveal that under code 291 conceals the 5000 reported incidents.
http://www.svd.se/svd-avslojar-tusental ... mottagande

Opinion: Sweden and Denmark are not all warm welcomes and cuddly politics
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... are_btn_tw

Germany tightens refugee policy as Finland joins Sweden in deportations
Germany will close its border to Algerians, Tunisians and Moroccans and will also prevent migrants from bringing their families to join them for two years

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/j ... are_btn_tw

This riot might have started over a broken candy-machine, imagine what these men will do when their benefits are slashed or they are told to leave the country?

Tensions rise in Sweden as teen migrants go on the rampage with makeshift weapons at child refugee centre - just days after female worker was brutally murdered

Group of men attacked staff with makeshift weapons at a refugee centre
Staff forced to barricade themselves inside a room at the children's shelter
Incident follows the death of Swedish aid worker, Alexandra Mezher, 22


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... apons.html

The scandal with the fake children is finally getting international notice, Swedish media have refused cover it for a long time. It might sound like an innocent phenomenon but these young men is striking the welfare system like a tsunami.
My sons daycare center have been warned of massive budget cuts next year, out of a welfare budget that is supposed to be used for children. This cut is specifically done for these young men who lie about their age, the budget needs to be shaved for $3 million dollars this year, and next year might be even worse.

The rumor that Sweden does not do age testing well or at all has spread around the world at the speed of 4g internet services.
Whatever real children arrive unaccompanied they cannot be many, and they will be placed for sleep in the same room as 35 year old adult males, there have already been several rapes, well those rapes that were reported anyway.

Just how old do you think these migrant 'children' are? Alarming pictures of refugees - including 'the fastest 14-year-old in Sweden' - that shed light on a growing scandal amid Europe's asylum crisis

Ahmad Farid claimed to be 16 but appears to have hair on his chin
Saad Alsaud is reported to have been the fastest 14-year-old in Sweden
Youssaf Khaliif Nuur claims he is 15, but he is 6ft tall and is said to shave
Sweden has been overwhelmed with ‘unaccompanied minors’ in what critics suspect is a huge fraud


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3ydRp3UOk
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

The ten year follow up for the ones who arrived in 2005 is something I glanced at a few weeks ago, can't find the link now. But their integration was atrocious, and that was for a year when there were only a couple of hundred most of whom were placed in well equipped facilities.

[Purple]

The more I think about this the more I am convinced that the EU is going to have to make a hard choice. Either give up their morality and not accept any other people or give up their wealth and opulence as they cope with them. And I do not see either of those as a happy ending.

[Edi]

It's quite simple: When push finally comes to shove, the European countries hardest hit will simply close their borders and tell everyone who has a problem with it to fuck off. It may be against the Schengen treaty and it may be against the Geneva Convention on Refugees, but if things keep on the current track, the response to that will be "So sue us, see you in court several years from now".

All in all, if the current international refugee rules are being exploited by human smugglers and criminals and just fortune seekers (and they are, there is not a shadow of a doubt about that), there is no reason not to just scrap the existing framework and repeal the current treaties, then work something else out that is actually workable. Systems like this ultimately rely on being utilized in good faith, but as we have seen, reality is very different.

If there is not going to be solidarity within the boundaries of the old framework and system, a new system must of necessity be made to replace it, one that reflects the reality, and that option is not going to be pleasant for anyone. Either circumstances or the will of the voting public will force a change at some point in time. Whether it happens sooner or later and in what form, I don't know, but if the present course is not altered and things go as they have, it will happen.

[Thanas]

I think a lot of people like Cosmicalstorm and Purple are overestimating the effects though. The refugees will not cause Europe to give up its wealth, they are far too few to do that. IMO this will be a strain on the budgets, but unless tens of millions enter Germany, it will not cause the average German a noticeable loss in wealth.

[cosmicalstorm]

I think a lot of people like Cosmicalstorm and Purple are overestimating the effects though. The refugees will not cause Europe to give up its wealth, they are far too few to do that. IMO this will be a strain on the budgets, but unless tens of millions enter Germany, it will not cause the average German a noticeable loss in wealth.

I hope that history will prove me an alarmist fuck, that would be nice. This was just another crisis that Europe endured. Would love it.

I would have felt more reassured were it not for the other calamities (climate change, oill price, ME conflict, automatization, Euro fuckuppery).