150 armed Militia occupy federal property in Oregon.

[Gaidin]

I mean specifically for espionage charges.

Uhh, not knowing the specifics, I'm betting there's a requirement for classified information and attempting to get access to it.

[Elheru Aran]

Does the content matter?

For certain crimes, likely.

I mean specifically for espionage charges.

Unless the computers at the wildlife refuge were connected to a larger Federal database (unlikely, the only thing they were probably connected to, if anything, would have had to do with BLM and other Interior Department affairs) it's most probable that the only files that they would have had, barring a monumental fuck-up on someone's part, would have had to do with fun stuff like animal movements, dress codes, and cheesy inter-office emails. More interesting stuff might have included data on Native American remains/burials/sites, but that would have been about it, I think. Illegal to access without permission? Sure. Espionage? Ehh. I wouldn't buy it.

By all means throw the book at them, but let's not try to stick specious charges on them. They've done quite enough as it is.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Given what was on those machines, probably not espionage.

Does the content matter?

Yes. The federal espionage statute is specific to defense and security information. The USFWS does not typically handle that information.

[Nephtys]

(Redundant)

[Broomstick]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think their's a principle in US law that if you are committing a crime, and someone dies as a result, you can be charged for murder even if you didn't kill them.

^ Correct.

There are more details than that, of course, but if someone dies during your commission of a felony you can potentially be held legally liable for that death.

[Borgholio]

Looks like Bundy finally realized that rebellions are serious business, not something you do for fun on a weekend.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/27/us/oregon ... index.html

Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, Oregon (CNN)Protest leader Ammon Bundy has asked, through his attorney, that the remaining occupiers at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon go home.

Bundy was arrested Tuesday night during a traffic stop. Another protester was shot and killed during the same stop.

"We need to step back. Somebody died yesterday," attorney Mike Arnold said Wednesday. "Mr. Bundy wants everybody to remember that somebody died, and this is not just about him right now."

More reading available at the link. Sucks that someone had to die to open his eyes...but if that's what it took...

Edit - Oh, and they've put up roadblocks. Guess they've started sieging now that the core of the militia have been arrested. Who wants to start a gofundme so we can get them more bags of dicks airlifted by drone into the compound?

With their leader arrested and a fellow protester killed, an unknown number of demonstrators have indicated they'll continue their weekslong armed occupation. The FBI tried to assert more control Wednesday, setting up checkpoints on roads heading to and from Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

[Thanas]

Bah, Bundy has not had his eyes opened. He is just scared that if it hits the fan, he will be indicted for conspiracy and any deaths will be laid at his feet.

[The Romulan Republic]

Question: Is Oregon a death penalty state?

Buddy's probably already fucked for life for the crimes he's committed (at least if there's any justice in this case), but if cooperation now might make the difference between life and death (or life in prison and ten years in prison), that could certainly explain it.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Question: Is Oregon a death penalty state?

Buddy's probably already fucked for life for the crimes he's committed (at least if there's any justice in this case), but if cooperation now might make the difference between life and death (or life in prison and ten years in prison), that could certainly explain it.

Does not matter, charges are and will be federal.

[Adam Reynolds]

Notably, the felony murder rule has been used in cases in which the person involved was a co-conspiritor in the crime. An oft used example is one of a pair of armed robbers being shot by a store owner, only for the companion to be charged with felony murder. Another notable case came from a getaway driver also being charged despite having no direct involvement. Enmund v. Florida(1982) made it all the way to the US Supreme Court on this issue. It was ruled that it could not be a death penalty case due to the fact that there was no direct involvement in pulling the trigger(in the loose metaphorical sense). So I suppose that indirectly answers TRR's question.

[Broomstick]

Bah, Bundy has not had his eyes opened. He is just scared that if it hits the fan, he will be indicted for conspiracy and any deaths will be laid at his feet.

It comes back to their basic selfishness – they're happy to be leaders as long as they don't get caught and don't suffer for it.

Question: Is Oregon a death penalty state?

Yes, but that's irrelevant if they're charged under Federal laws. The Federal government most certainly has and does use the death penalty in their jurisdiction.

Buddy's probably already fucked for life for the crimes he's committed (at least if there's any justice in this case), but if cooperation now might make the difference between life and death (or life in prison and ten years in prison), that could certainly explain it.

Maybe...

Maybe he's been threatened that is there are more deaths he could be held responsible for them, in part if not in whole.

[Gaidin]

Bah, Bundy has not had his eyes opened. He is just scared that if it hits the fan, he will be indicted for conspiracy and any deaths will be laid at his feet.

It comes back to their basic selfishness – they're happy to be leaders as long as they don't get caught and don't suffer for it.

I like to think he doesn't believe in his cause as much as he trumpets.

[The Romulan Republic]

Bah, Bundy has not had his eyes opened. He is just scared that if it hits the fan, he will be indicted for conspiracy and any deaths will be laid at his feet.

It comes back to their basic selfishness – they're happy to be leaders as long as they don't get caught and don't suffer for it.

Question: Is Oregon a death penalty state?

Yes, but that's irrelevant if they're charged under Federal laws. The Federal government most certainly has and does use the death penalty in their jurisdiction.

Buddy's probably already fucked for life for the crimes he's committed (at least if there's any justice in this case), but if cooperation now might make the difference between life and death (or life in prison and ten years in prison), that could certainly explain it.

Maybe...

Maybe he's been threatened that is there are more deaths he could be held responsible for them, in part if not in whole.

Mind you, I don't think they'll actually execute him even if they do convict him of murder. Probably wouldn't want to martyr him.

But I sincerely hope that right now he's trying to barter his way down from life to, say, a decade or two via a plea deal.

[Broomstick]

Nope, I think they would execute him... but they'll do it the way they did Timothy McVeigh: delay it long enough he's largely forgotten, then kill him in a state back east (such as Indiana, which is where McVeigh was executed) outside of the area that spawned him.

[Gaidin]

Wait. Would they really be able to step it up to Capital Crime for this whole thing or is it just some part that sort of breaks the camel's back?

[Broomstick]

Well... yeah.

They occupied Federal facilities, why wouldn't that come under Federal jurisdiction?

As to whether or not they could make a capital charge stick... that's a question for the lawyers. But when has the US Federal government ever been particularly nice or forgiving?

[Gaidin]

Well... yeah.

They occupied Federal facilities, why wouldn't that come under Federal jurisdiction?

As to whether or not they could make a capital charge stick... that's a question for the lawyers. But when has the US Federal government ever been particularly nice or forgiving?

Well yes, that comes under Federal Jurisdiction. But then, to be clear, there have been crimes before that would have come under Federal Jurisdiction just for crossing state lines(DC Sniper) but they just helped and let State prosecute. For this though, there's 'not being nice and forgiving' and there's 'being vindictive because we can'. When you're using McVeigh as you're measuring stick here because...I presume you lack a better known name that people can reference...I'm not sure we can really jump from what amounts to this to blowing up a building and say death penalty for both. Really? There are plenty of punishments between fining Bundy and sticking him in the Chair and saying the government isn't being nice and forgiving. o_O

[Raw Shark]

I don't think anyone here is trying to equate Bundy's crimes with McVeigh's; the latter is just the most prominent example of the "right" (ie: safer) way to snuff an anti-Fed nut job without making him a celebrity again and inspiring hundreds to do what he did. If the court decides that he needs to go, they'll stick him in ADX Florence (no contact with anybody, ever, even the guards, except for very limited and tightly-controlled face to face visitation; home of such luminaries as the surviving 9/11 guys, the Unibomber, that one guy who escaped from every other prison he was put in, formerly Tim McVeigh, and fun fact: Woody Harrelson's dad) for ten or fifteen years before they do it.

I strongly suspect that Bundy is scared shitless and just saying whatever his lawyer tells him, now that he's actually spent a day in a concrete box, to paraphrase Finicum, and is learning what being deprived of his freedom is really like.

[Broomstick]

Exactly - this whole approach to these guys has been low-key. Arresting them at a traffic stop instead of at their "fort" and so forth.

Another fun fact about Woody Harrelson's dad - he liked complete solitary and being in the supermax. A very, very peculiar individual that one... A true misanthrope.

[LaCroix]

He probably wants to earn some brownie points for "defusing the situation", because he's knee deep in by now. Not only for this Malheur (funny - in French and German, this word means "bad luck" or "accident") they will also add several charges for the ranch standoff on Bundy's tab, as well, while they're at it.

I'd be willing to wager that he'll die of old age in prison. Which would be a very nice deterrent to all his fellow "freedom lovers".

[Raw Shark]

Yeah, the elder Harrelson was a pretty interesting guy. "I enjoy the silence," he said about being there. I have it anecdotally from a former resident of Florence, CO that the one local hotel had a room permanently rented to Woody while his father was alive, so he could visit whenever he felt like it and the opportunity arose; Woody was, predictably, the only celebrity ever spotted there, so he stood out a little.

[General Zod]

Well... yeah.

They occupied Federal facilities, why wouldn't that come under Federal jurisdiction?

As to whether or not they could make a capital charge stick... that's a question for the lawyers. But when has the US Federal government ever been particularly nice or forgiving?

Unless the prosecutor is especially pig headed they're probably going to use it as leverage to force Bundy into a plea bargain.

[Borgholio]

they will also add several charges for the ranch standoff on Bundy's tab, as well, while they're at it.

Somehow I doubt they'd do that. They don't want to appear to be scraping up stuff to pin on this guy when he's already guilty of at least a few serious felonies.

[Thanas]

Why not? No smart prosecutor will give away additional leeway unless he has to.

[Gaidin]

I'm not even sure what they think they could definitively prove from the Bundy ranch besides being behind on a bill. And that's more his dad's felony and for the BLM besides. The FBI there is more interested in who's aiming a gun at who and whether that's ever Bundy it seems. Here it seems more easier to stick with Oregon and hit the ground running.