150 armed Militia occupy federal property in Oregon.

[Borgholio]

Looks like the occupation is almost over. Three more surrendered to the FBI and 5 others were allowed to leave. Only a handful remain. From other news sites, it's reported that those who remain are either batshit insane or feeling defeated and wanting to get out and back to their families.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 79446598//

[Alyrium Denryle]

they will also add several charges for the ranch standoff on Bundy's tab, as well, while they're at it.

Somehow I doubt they'd do that. They don't want to appear to be scraping up stuff to pin on this guy when he's already guilty of at least a few serious felonies.

They would not be scraping. The crimes surrounding Cliven Bundy are almost as bad, and include such lovely things as Sedition and Conspiracy to Impede By Force, Insurrection, and possibly some variation of kidnapping (because they detained motorists at gun point to check ID on the highways near Bundy's ranch)

[Borgholio]

What I meant is by not only charging him with crimes he committed this time around, but crimes he should have been charged with back when the ranch incident occurred...it would seem like the Feds are desperate to put him away for a long time or are just being vindictive. From the POV of people watching, it seemed like the Feds were willing to let the whole ranch incident slide...now suddenly they bring up 2-year old charges?

Let me be clear...I'm all for throwing the book at these assholes. I'm not personally against charging him for stuff that happened at the ranch. But these bozos make it a point to show how evil and corrupt the Federal Government is. If the Feds charged them for stuff above and beyond what happened in Oregon, then it could potentially be used as evidence that they were right about the Feds.

[Thanas]

Meh. The people who believe that are already of the opinion that the Feds are the source of all evil. So I do not see that changing by not charging Bundy for what he should have been charged.

[Flagg]

These are people (like my fundamentalist 4th grade teacher who bullied me for believing in evolution as opposed to creationism which she taught along with it, mocking evolution the entire time. TENURE!) who blamed the government for the entire Pedophile-Run Branch Davidian Cult standoff. No, not the way it ended (where they tried to commit mass suicide by setting the place on fire), but for even "bothering those poor people". You know, the ones stockpiling illegal automatic weapons and letting "David Koresh" molest their children and who immediately opened fire when the ATF attempted to serve a warrant, killing several of the agents?

They cannot be reasoned with. They are like Terminators, except easy to kill and they feel emotions, but only the bad ones. Like hate.

[Dominus Atheos]

now suddenly they bring up 2-year old charges?

No. The only thing anyone is being charged with now is:

Conspiracy to Impede Officers of the United States from discharging their official duties through the use of force, intimidation, or threats

All other charges are purely hypothetical.

[Raw Shark]

I know that I mocked him, and I definitely believe that he is worthy of mockery, but I actually have more respect for Sumo Guy than the rest of these clowns, upon reflection. At least he sought a non-lethal conflict resolution. Peace through sumo.

[Borgholio]

now suddenly they bring up 2-year old charges?

No. The only thing anyone is being charged with now is:

Conspiracy to Impede Officers of the United States from discharging their official duties through the use of force, intimidation, or threats

All other charges are purely hypothetical.

Yes I know, I was simply responding to LaCroix' post.

[Dominus Atheos]

And of course the FBI and local police continued to be fucking retarded until the very end:

Cliven Bundy: Lavoy Finicum shot in 'cold blood'

(CNN)A high-speed getaway attempt and a reach for the waistband are said to have prompted police SWAT team members to open fire on a group of leaders of the Oregon armed occupiers.

A law enforcement official described the dramatic showdown that occurred Tuesday night on a desolate stretch of U.S. 395, some distance away from the federal wildlife refuge where the group took over federal buildings nearly a month ago.

FBI and Oregon State Police at a command center in Burns were monitoring the group when they departed the refuge to attend a town hall meeting with local residents in the town of John Day.

Ammon Bundy tells colleagues to go home

For days, they watched as members of the group came and went freely from the refuge. Some went home on weekends. Ammon Bundy, the group's leader, visited family near Boise, Idaho.

"They got quite comfortable coming and going. This was a 'standoff-lite,'" said one official who was monitoring the events as they went down.

Tuesday was the first time that the combination of top leaders was all together traveling away from their base at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, the official said.

The FBI and state police teams knew the route they were going to take. They picked a spot away from populated areas to attempt a traffic stop. One vehicle stopped on command from authorities. The second, allegedly driven by LaVoy Finicum, took off at high speed, attempting to get away.

About a mile away, out of sight, the FBI and state police had set up a roadblock.

But Finicum, with police in hot pursuit, attempted to leave the main road and drove into a snow bank. When he emerged from the vehicle, FBI and state police ordered him to surrender. That's when, authorities say, Finicum reached down toward his waistband where he had a gun.

The SWAT team opened fire. Finicum was killed. Ryan Bundy suffered a light wound on his arm.

The shooting was captured on camera by the SWAT team. FBI and Oregon police officials are discussing possibly releasing the video, in part to counter claims by supporters that Finicum was gunned down while trying to surrender.

In all, police arrested eight people Tuesday linked to the wildlife refuge takeover: Five in the traffic stop; two others in Burns; and one in Arizona, the FBI and Oregon State Police said.

Overnight, dozens of members of the armed group left the federal refuge.

The FBI and state and federal authorities have clamped down on access roads to prevent anyone from returning.

Authorities believe perhaps 10 or fewer members of the group remain in the refuge.

On January 2, protesters took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge complex in eastern Oregon, in part to protest the sentencing of two ranchers and what they call government overreach when it comes to federal lands.

Fan-fucking-tastic. Why is this such a huge screwup? Other militia groups warned that "there would be no more free Wacos":

Antigovernment Groups Warned Of 'Civil War' In Oregon. Now What?

1/27/2016

Now that eight of the occupiers — including their leader, Ammon Bundy —have been arrested and one has been killed in a clash with law enforcement, antigovernment groups are caught between a cause they agree with and a leader they don’t trust. These groups are obsessed with the idea of the federal government provoking a “civil war” with “patriots” like them, and they have been worried that they will now be forced to fight a civil war on behalf of Ammon Bundy.

Stewart Rhodes, head of the Oath Keepers, has from the beginning urged his followers to stay out of the Oregon standoff, but has nevertheless warned the government that “there will never again be a free Waco” and that any force against the occupiers could lead to a “bloody, brutal civil war.” Mike Vanderboegh, leader of the Three Percenters movement, similarly warned that Bundy and his allies had “written a check that they expect the rest of us to cash in our own blood in a ghastly civil war” and may have been infiltrated by federal "provacateurs" trying to provoke such a war.

These groups are, at least for now, sounding a note of caution.

- See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/a ... v3C3k.dpuf

This is the "note of caution":

PRESS RELEASE

26 January 2016

Pacific Patriot Network - Oath Keepers - III%

Pacific Patriots Network - Official Statement for Immediate Release

On January 26, 2016, Ammon Bundy Ryan Bundy, Shawna Cox, Brian Cavalier, Ryan Payne and LaVoy Finicum were involved in a traffic stop between the town of Burns and John Day, Oregon. They were on their way to a meeting with local ranchers. Ammon Bundy, as well as the passengers of his vehicle were stopped, arrested, and taken into federal custody by the FBI. We can confirm that one man has been shot and taken to the local hospital and that another was shot and killed. We can also confirm that separate from the traffic stop, both Joe O'Shaugnessy and Pete Santilli were also arrested and taken into custody.

It has come to the attention of PPN that many individuals are responding to this news as a ‘Call to Action’. The Pacific Patriots Network is issuing an immediate “STAND BY” Order to all those who are mobilizing to the peaceful city of Burns, Oregon. We will not pursue any action until all of the facts have been pieced together regarding the traffic stop and the arrest of Ammon Bundy. During this time, cooler heads must prevail. We do not wish to inflame the current situation and will engage in open dialogue until all of the facts have been gathered.

Again, we must reiterate the current standing order. No mobilization of any kind is to take place until every piece of speculation and hearsay have been verified or dismissed. We will maintain the high road and continue to communicate with federal officials until a complete time line has been developed. In light of recent events PPN continues to support a peaceful resolution to the occupation of the refuge. As more information is made available to the PPN it will be released accordingly and via the appropriate channels.

This probably counts as "developing a complete timeline" so who the fuck know what those several thousand crazy people are going to do now.

This whole situation deserves a slow clap for all involved. Good job everyone.

[Borgholio]

And of course the FBI and local police continued to be fucking retarded until the very end:

Not sure I understand how they were retarded. So they had the place under surveillance and waited for a good opportunity to make their move and arrest the ringleaders without having to engage in a massive shootout. They eventually get their chance and move in for the arrest. One guy hops out of a car where they know the suspects are armed and reaches for his waistband. Why are we surprised he would be shot? Most cops in the country would be very nervous if after a pursuit, a presumably armed individual jumped out of the vehicle and made a move like that.

[Raw Shark]

Finicum clearly stated on previously-released videos that he would refuse to be taken alive for ideological reasons, and brandished a weapon. Putting a cap or three in his ass in the event of any kind of aggression is about as justifiable as you can get. Kids, don't play tough guy or with guns if you don't want to get actual-factual killed.

[Captain Seafort]

Kids, don't play tough guy or with guns if you don't want to get actual-factual killed.

Assuming he was playing tough guy, rather than being deadly serious and getting exactly what he wanted.

[Alyrium Denryle]

And of course the FBI and local police continued to be fucking retarded until the very end:

What the fuck are you going on about? The FBI and state police executed this better than I imagined they would. I was thinking the best course of action was a siege. Instead they lured the fuckers into a false sense of security and got most of the leaders in one fell swoop, and then blocked off the refuge which is now occupied by a bunch of leaderless whackaloons.

It was perfect.

That they had to shoot a man who declared in public that he would not permit himself to be taken alive, and contrived to force the hand of law enforcement in that respect by reaching for a weapon is...well... to be expected.

Would you have preferred Finicum had been permitted to force their hand further by shooting a federal agent instead?

[Dominus Atheos]

And of course the FBI and local police continued to be fucking retarded until the very end:

What the fuck are you going on about? The FBI and state police executed this better than I imagined they would. I was thinking the best course of action was a siege. Instead they lured the fuckers into a false sense of security and got most of the leaders in one fell swoop, and then blocked off the refuge which is now occupied by a bunch of leaderless whackaloons.

It was perfect.

That they had to shoot a man who declared in public that he would not permit himself to be taken alive, and contrived to force the hand of law enforcement in that respect by reaching for a weapon is...well... to be expected.

Would you have preferred Finicum had been permitted to force their hand further by shooting a federal agent instead?

"Reaching for his waistband" has always been a bullshit reason to shoot someone, most notably Tamir Rice. Yes, police need to wait until the suspect actually has the gun in his hand before they kill him.

But in this case what I think doesn't matter, what matters is what the thousands of nutjobs who kept threatening "bloody civil war" if this turned into another Ruby Ridge or Waco think. It doesn't even matter whether it is actually anything like Ruby Ridge or Waco,all that matters is what the nutjobs think.

[Dominus Atheos]

Here is the version of events the nutjobs are spreading around:



A clear video showing the dead nutjob having a weapon in his hand would have been really useful for defusing this broader situation, but apparently one doesn't exist because the trigger-happy SWAT small-dicks gunned him down before we could get that video.

It was incredibly incompetent to not issue orders "don't shoot unless you clearly see a weapon (and hopefully the video captures it too)"

I don't mean to sound like comicalstorm but there is a significant chance more stuff is going to happen that's going to be really bad, and their primary target is going to be police so these cops absolutely should have taken that risk.

[Edi]

And of course the FBI and local police continued to be fucking retarded until the very end:

What the fuck are you going on about? The FBI and state police executed this better than I imagined they would. I was thinking the best course of action was a siege. Instead they lured the fuckers into a false sense of security and got most of the leaders in one fell swoop, and then blocked off the refuge which is now occupied by a bunch of leaderless whackaloons.

It was perfect.

That they had to shoot a man who declared in public that he would not permit himself to be taken alive, and contrived to force the hand of law enforcement in that respect by reaching for a weapon is...well... to be expected.

Would you have preferred Finicum had been permitted to force their hand further by shooting a federal agent instead?

"Reaching for his waistband" has always been a bullshit reason to shoot someone, most notably Tamir Rice. Yes, police need to wait until the suspect actually has the gun in his hand before they kill him.

But in this case what I think doesn't matter, what matters is what the thousands of nutjobs who kept threatening "bloody civil war" if this turned into another Ruby Ridge or Waco think. It doesn't even matter whether it is actually anything like Ruby Ridge or Waco,all that matters is what the nutjobs think.

Thing is, Finicum was already known to be armed and he was on record making threats of armed resistance and that he would rather die than be locked in a concrete box. He was a known lethal danger and allowing the situation to escalate to where he would have been able to act on his clearly expressed premeditated intentions (of murdering law enforcement officers attempting to force him to comply with the law) would have been the height of irresponsibility.

The only problem with him getting killed is one of the logistics of trash disposal.

[Alyrium Denryle]

"Reaching for his waistband" has always been a bullshit reason to shoot someone, most notably Tamir Rice. Yes, police need to wait until the suspect actually has the gun in his hand before they kill him.

It is sometimes bullshit. It is not always bullshit. Especially when you have had someone under surveilance for days, know he is armed, and also know that he has made public statements about not wanting to be taken alive and making threats of lethal force against any law enforcement agent who attempts an arrest.

They have it on fucking video (which I am certain will be released), what was he doing, going for his wallet?

But in this case what I think doesn't matter, what matters is what the thousands of nutjobs who kept threatening "bloody civil war" if this turned into another Ruby Ridge or Waco think. It doesn't even matter whether it is actually anything like Ruby Ridge or Waco,all that matters is what the nutjobs think.

The nutjobs will pounce on anything. Gun in his hand? They still go apeshit. Just arresting them when they are grabbing snacks? Apeshit.

No matter what the federal government does, the federal government is evil and must be destroyed, to these fucks. If they do go to war (and frankly, that is kind of inevitable, whether now, or a decade from now) they will last about 2 days. It is almost like their groups have FBI infiltrators or something, because the FBI takes domestic terrorism seriously.

[Venator]

"Reaching for his waistband" has always been a bullshit reason to shoot someone, most notably Tamir Rice. Yes, police need to wait until the suspect actually has the gun in his hand before they kill him.

It is sometimes bullshit. It is not always bullshit. Especially when you have had someone under surveilance for days, know he is armed, and also know that he has made public statements about not wanting to be taken alive and making threats of lethal force against any law enforcement agent who attempts an arrest.

They have it on fucking video (which I am certain will be released), what was he doing, going for his wallet?

And setting aside all these very valid factors - the officers in question might have not have recognized him in particular, for whatever reason - it does pay to remember that police are (usually) human beings, who often react decisively when they believe their lives are in danger.

When this results in firing on a teenager who turns out to be unarmed, because they think they are going for a weapon, it warrants investigation.

Firing on an individual who is known to be armed, and are reaching in the direction of a weapon they are carrying, and are part of a movement that threatens police on a daily basis, is a justifiable use of force by most definitions.

[Simon_Jester]

Finicum clearly stated on previously-released videos that he would refuse to be taken alive for ideological reasons, and brandished a weapon. Putting a cap or three in his ass in the event of any kind of aggression is about as justifiable as you can get. Kids, don't play tough guy or with guns if you don't want to get actual-factual killed.

That they had to shoot a man who declared in public that he would not permit himself to be taken alive, and contrived to force the hand of law enforcement in that respect by reaching for a weapon is...well... to be expected.

Would you have preferred Finicum had been permitted to force their hand further by shooting a federal agent instead?

"Reaching for his waistband" has always been a bullshit reason to shoot someone, most notably Tamir Rice. Yes, police need to wait until the suspect actually has the gun in his hand before they kill him.

So in other words, yes, you would prefer that Finicum had been permitted to force their hand further by shooting a federal agent.

Either that, or you seem to labor under the delusion that real life is like, I don't know, one of those '50s Westerns. One where the good guys can always shoot the gun out of someone's hand with pinpoint accuracy faster than they can lift it to eye level and pull the trigger.

Or, alternatively, it's like Star Trek where every episode begins with the monster engaging in some consequence-free slaughter of a bunch of redshirts and nobody cares, because they're expendable redshirts and all's well that ends well as long as Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are okay.

Except that in real life, you don't get the luxury of waiting to pull the trigger until the split second between the gun entering a man's hand and the time it's fired at you. And in real life it does matter when law enforcement agents die because criminals got a free shot at them.

I don't approve of the degree of aggressive, overzealous, violence some police organizations display these days.

But these guys in Oregon are a bunch of terrorists, who loudly advertise that they are armed, and publicly fantasize about armed conflict with the government and its agents. They are not to be taken lightly, they are not remotely in the same fucking category as random thirteen year olds.

But in this case what I think doesn't matter, what matters is what the thousands of nutjobs who kept threatening "bloody civil war" if this turned into another Ruby Ridge or Waco think. It doesn't even matter whether it is actually anything like Ruby Ridge or Waco,all that matters is what the nutjobs think.

There is literally no way to stop the nutjobs from deciding this guy's a martyr. Doesn't matter if he shoots first. At most, it might affect a few percent of them, the least-crazy ones who are least quick to believe conspiracy theories and outright lies due to their hatred of government.

Is it worth risking death on the off chance that a few percent of the potentially maybe-violent maybe-supporters will maybe not back a hypothetical terrorist movement that might or might not grow in reaction to this event?

I wouldn't ask anyone to risk their lives for such a small and uncertain reward. You would, but if so, that's you being cavalier with other people's lives and trying to deny them the right to defend themselves against the unjust use of force. Because defending themselves against unjust force might in some way make things worse and offend your ideology, or cause some notional harm that will probably not even affect you personally.

[Napoleon the Clown]

And of course the FBI and local police continued to be fucking retarded until the very end:

What the fuck are you going on about? The FBI and state police executed this better than I imagined they would. I was thinking the best course of action was a siege. Instead they lured the fuckers into a false sense of security and got most of the leaders in one fell swoop, and then blocked off the refuge which is now occupied by a bunch of leaderless whackaloons.

It was perfect.

That they had to shoot a man who declared in public that he would not permit himself to be taken alive, and contrived to force the hand of law enforcement in that respect by reaching for a weapon is...well... to be expected.

Would you have preferred Finicum had been permitted to force their hand further by shooting a federal agent instead?

"Reaching for his waistband" has always been a bullshit reason to shoot someone, most notably Tamir Rice. Yes, police need to wait until the suspect actually has the gun in his hand before they kill him.

But in this case what I think doesn't matter, what matters is what the thousands of nutjobs who kept threatening "bloody civil war" if this turned into another Ruby Ridge or Waco think. It doesn't even matter whether it is actually anything like Ruby Ridge or Waco,all that matters is what the nutjobs think.

So I'm going to apply your logic to another situation here, tell me what you think:

A guy has declared he will murder someone. Should the police wait until he's about to murder his victim before arresting his ass? There's a hell of a lot more legal justification for letting someone make death threats (namely, freedom of speech) than there is for saying you should let someone who has sworn they will not be taken alive pull a gun before using lethal force. Finicum was on video multiple times stating his intent to go down fighting. He tried to flee, then jumped out of the vehicle reaching toward his waistband. How the fuck aren't they justified in minimizing risk? This wasn't a case of some kid in the park playing. This was a grown-ass adult that had been playing militia and stated his intention to use violence to not go to prison for doing something he knew was illegal and would result in arrest attempts.

Now, if you (rightly) conclude my Death Threats Dude comparison is a retarded-ass situation, good job! You've got brain cells still working! Now apply said brain cells to the task of this particular case. Finicum intentionally recorded himself threatening to use lethal force on people who weren't trying to kill him. He was making threats of force with absolutely no legal justification. Death threats are not protected speech. If someone sent you videos threatening to shoot you, would you allow them to pull a gun before you defended yourself? You see them reaching to where a gun can easily be carried. They've made recordings stating they plan to try and kill you. Is it reasonable to let the person start pulling a gun before you shoot their ass?

Jesus, dude. Calling law enforcement on excessive force is a good thing. Assuming that every use of force is automatically excessive? That's not a good thing. This guy stated he planned to use lethal force if arrested. He was seen to be armed in every one of his videos on the subject. A prudent person would assume his intent was to cause harm, and that's the bar in law.

[jwl]

If there were FBI infiltrators in the group, might he have told them his true intentions, so they would know whether his speeches are bravado or not?

[Alyrium Denryle]

If there were FBI infiltrators in the group, might he have told them his true intentions, so they would know whether his speeches are bravado or not?

The speeches were evidently not bravado. Now, the Militias are not the KKK, they are not so heavily infiltrated that some dude in a leadership position or place of group-trust is likely to be an FBI agent. But they are there. Watching.

[Rogue 9]

The FBI has released video of the stop and the shooting.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Here is the version of events the nutjobs are spreading around:



A clear video showing the dead nutjob having a weapon in his hand would have been really useful for defusing this broader situation, but apparently one doesn't exist because the trigger-happy SWAT small-dicks gunned him down before we could get that video.

It was incredibly incompetent to not issue orders "don't shoot unless you clearly see a weapon (and hopefully the video captures it too)"

I don't mean to sound like comicalstorm but there is a significant chance more stuff is going to happen that's going to be really bad, and their primary target is going to be police so these cops absolutely should have taken that risk.

That's bullshit, DA. Even if he had killed a Law Enforcement officer they still would been supportive. Hell, the first LOD this year was a Utah cop that was shot in the head at close range by a hit and run suspect. The suspect then wounds another officer before being killed by other cops. His friends are still supporting him by calling it murder and demanding revenge. They aren't hardcore anti-government types like these clowns.

The "wait until he has a gun in his hands" tactic is only suggested by those that simply do not care about the people in law enforcement. That doesn't mean I think it should be applied in all situations because each is different but this one doesn't get any more justified. You need to pull your head out of your ass.

[Borgholio]

The FBI has released video of the stop and the shooting.

Gonna post another version with the video embedded from Youtube (found the Oregon live site to be unresponsive for me for some reason...)

Anyways, the whole video can be found on USA Today (it's 30 minutes unedited). An edited version to show only the good stuff is here:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ore ... story.html

Fast forward to 5:50 shortly after the white truck crashes. The terrorist does indeed come out of the car with his hands up but then repeatedly reaches for his pockets. According to the FBI, he had a loaded handgun in his pocket. That pretty much seals the deal then. He wanted to die.