Microsoft is forcing users to upgrade to Windows 10

[Zaune]

I was addressing my comments at "the kind of user that can't wrap his technical skills around changing a setting in the windows control panel", as Purple put it. That category of individual can reasonably be assumed not to use their personally-owned computer for anything they make a living from.

In your particular case, Broomstick, I really don't know what to tell you. If you're lucky you'll find that the model of hardware you own is popular enough that someone's gone to the trouble to reverse-engineer the software and create an open source clone, but otherwise I suggest tracking down a cheap XP box on Craigslist and keeping it permanently isolated from the Internet to control the lathe with. You may also be able to use Wine to continue to use your current art and design software -anything older than about 2008 is more likely than not to run without any special effort on your part- but I'd start exploring Linux-compatible alternatives as well just in case.

And yes, I know that's going to involve a lot of expense and hassle you can do without. But the alternative is continuing to put up with Microsoft's bullshit.

[Purple]

Why do you need office to write short stories when software that comes free with Windows works just fine?

Because if you want to submit any document anywhere it requires formatting and possibly even an export to PDF. Things you can't do without decent office software. And the only decent office software happens to be MSOffice.

I can't comment on Visual Basic, but if it's a hobby, then spend the $500 like everyone else who has a hobby using PC's and doesn't upgrade for a decade and a half and suddenly finds that their old, obsolete shit is no longer supported. If it's used for professional reasons, then consider it an investment and take the tax write off, since businesses are forced to upgrade to new tech all the fucking time. It's the cost of doing business.

Why should he have to spend money twice just to buy a new product that does the same thing as his old product did and no better? That's the cusp of the argument here. Would you pay to buy a new car that's an exact copy of your old one because someone decided you are not to drive the old one any more even thought nothing is wrong with it?

I was addressing my comments at "the kind of user that can't wrap his technical skills around changing a setting in the windows control panel", as Purple put it. That category of individual can reasonably be assumed not to use their personally-owned computer for anything they make a living from.

On the contrary, I find that most people who make a living using the computer fall into this category. This includes most office workers, everyone who works in any job that is not a technical field, anyone that works in a company where they do not in fact have administrative access...

[Flagg]

It was mainly directed at Korto, who thinks a modern OS in 2016 should be able to run 16 year old software because he doesn't want to learn how to use newer (and better) versions of said software. It's like demanding modern cars come equipped with a fucking steam engine.

Oh, sorry. Missed that in your subtle nuance.

It's funny that I've had Windows 10 from day one and have yet to experience any of the "issues" described. Is there some other "Windows 10" OS put out by MS I haven't heard of? But then again, I don't demand that modern Operating Systems cater to a need (that I don't have, and if I did it would be totally unreasonable) to use ancient, obsolete software because I refuse to learn to use far superior versions.

Do you get angry at not being able to purchase carbon filament light bulbs, too?

So, first off, we have the assumption here that since you, Flagg, sample size one, hasn't had any problems, than anyone else who has experienced problems must be doing it wrong or something. Because no one else could ever have different components than you, or a different set up than you.
<snip>

Make that two since I've stated a few times regarding 10 that I've never had an issue with it. More so after installing DoNotSpy10.

That's the hilarious thing about all this whining and mewling: The Luddites doing it refuse to even put out the tiniest bit of effort to even try to mitigate, let alone find a workaround for what is their problem, and instead expect a company developing an OS for the masses to cater to their micro-minority who cannot or mostly will not upgrade their ancient software because they don't want to have to learn new things.

[Flagg]

Why do you need office to write short stories when software that comes free with Windows works just fine?

Because if you want to submit any document anywhere it requires formatting and possibly even an export to PDF. Things you can't do without decent office software. And the only decent office software happens to be MSOffice.

Well, sounds like if he wants to continue his hobby, he should upgrade his software like everyone who, for instance, uses their PC for gaming. Or just do a basic fucking Google search to learn (something that he seems to not want to do) how to turn off automatic upgrades instead of having a sad so stupid it deserves nothing but mockery and derision.

I can't comment on Visual Basic, but if it's a hobby, then spend the $500 like everyone else who has a hobby using PC's and doesn't upgrade for a decade and a half and suddenly finds that their old, obsolete shit is no longer supported. If it's used for professional reasons, then consider it an investment and take the tax write off, since businesses are forced to upgrade to new tech all the fucking time. It's the cost of doing business.

Why should he have to spend money twice just to buy a new product that does the same thing as his old product did and no better? That's the cusp of the argument here. Would you pay to buy a new car that's an exact copy of your old one because someone decided you are not to drive the old one any more even thought nothing is wrong with it?

No one is doing that you water-brained dipshit. As I and others have said repeadedly: You don't have to upgrade to Windows 10. As for your car example, plenty of states have adopted admission standards that require you get your car inspected and if it doesn't meet them, you have to get it fixed so that it meets the standards, or jump through hoops (far more than doing a Google search) to get a waiver. So you fail on every level, you are not a person, go away.

[Ralin]

As for your car example, plenty of states have adopted admission standards that require you get your car inspected and if it doesn't meet them, you have to get it fixed so that it meets the standards, or jump through hoops (far more than doing a Google search) to get a waiver. So you fail on every level, you are not a person, go away.

Which would qualify as "something wrong with your car," dontcha think?

[Dragon Angel]

It's the cost of doing business. And yes, demanding that new Operating Systems cater to people who have refused to upgrade thier software in a decade and a half is totally unreasonable.

In general I agree with this sentiment, it's just the edge cases can tend to range very far and wide, making it not an easy choice even factoring in costs of hardware, software, and labor (to get all the new parts working, as well as retrain users for these new parts). Even Microsoft, for all its tribulations getting software compatibility to work, has its limits (the 64-bit version of Windows could've easily supported 16-bit Windows/DOS programs with an emulator, since long mode doesn't have virtual 8086 possible in the CPU, but Microsoft completely dropped support for them).

[Purple]

Well, sounds like if he wants to continue his hobby, he should upgrade his software like everyone who, for instance, uses their PC for gaming. Or just do a basic fucking Google search to learn (something that he seems to not want to do) how to turn off automatic upgrades instead of having a sad so stupid it deserves nothing but mockery and derision.

Why should he have to invest undue time and/or money and/or effort into something just because microsoft got greedy? Why should he not have the right to complain about it if they make him?

No one is doing that you water-brained dipshit. As I and others have said repeadedly: You don't have to upgrade to Windows 10.

Except that there is an undue burden placed on us to take steps not to upgrade. Which is unfair.

As for your car example, plenty of states have adopted admission standards that require you get your car inspected and if it doesn't meet them, you have to get it fixed so that it meets the standards, or jump through hoops (far more than doing a Google search) to get a waiver.

Except that in this case your car not only has not failed but passed the test with flying colors. The clerk is just being obstinate like you are now.

So you fail on every level, you are not a person, go away.

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

[Edi]

I was addressing my comments at "the kind of user that can't wrap his technical skills around changing a setting in the windows control panel", as Purple put it. That category of individual can reasonably be assumed not to use their personally-owned computer for anything they make a living from.

No, it cannot be reasonably assumed. I have regular encounters with morons who should not be let anywhere near a computer who are using it to make a living and generally use consumer grade services to run enterprise grade operations and then bitch about it not acting like an enterprise system. I have two words to say about this sort of folks: FUCK THEM!


Regarding the issue of business software, specialized software, operating systems, compatibility, support and such, what we are seeing is the market in action.

Companies like Microsoft have ZERO obligation to keep their operating system backward compatible with old versions of third party software. Companies that make software generally should keep compatibility between versions (at least within the few versions closest to each other). It is also on those companies to make sure that their software is compatible with an operating system they program for. There is also the fact that once a company phases out a product and kills it at the end of its lifecycle, it has zero obligation to keep supporting old versions of its products, never mind in a new operating environment (substantially different hardware and/or a different operating system).

It may be a big investment in terms of equipment and software for a small business owner to upgrade to a new environment, but as was said, it is the cost of doing business. When you choose tools to do something, you need to balance cost, features, convenience, future upgrade/support and data compatibility/ownership issues. For many programs, you pay for the first three, are at the vendor's mercy for the fourth and are often at the vendor's mercy also for the last one, which is the worst. Unless you have the technical know-how to convert your operations to a different base at need.

There's a reason why open data formats are the friend of a small business owner, as well as public tools, because then the products of your work cannot easily be held hostage by proprietary data formats and similar arbitrary bullfuckery. The downside is often that you have to sacrifice convenience and ease of use to retain your independence.

Bottom line is that both hardware and software have a life cycle and nobody is entitled to automatic (or any) support past the EOL date. If they want or need help and support for obsolete hardware and software, they are free to seek it wherever they can find it, at whatever price they can negotiate from whoever is willing or able to provide it.

======

Note that that is entirely separate from the issue of Microsoft's terms and conditions of use. Fortunately they do not apply here as written with regard to user created content. EULAs are, in the EU, more of a wishlist that companies put in and that the courts can simply override and say "this part is invalid due to being against the law" if that happens to be the case.

If those are the kind of issues that touch on you (such as Tribble's comment about risking client-privilege), then you need to switch to a system that does not carry the risk. It is yet another cost of doing business.

What MS is doing with those kinds of poison pill terms is utterly unethical, because they are seeking an avenue of leeching off of the work of others, but in the US at least it is (so far) legal. There is a reason why I have made a point of not using any Microsoft software if there is a good alternative to it. I have Windows at home, and mainly due to gaming. I'll be just as comfortable doing writing on Linux as well as a number of other things.

[Edi]

Well, sounds like if he wants to continue his hobby, he should upgrade his software like everyone who, for instance, uses their PC for gaming. Or just do a basic fucking Google search to learn (something that he seems to not want to do) how to turn off automatic upgrades instead of having a sad so stupid it deserves nothing but mockery and derision.

Why should he have to invest undue time and/or money and/or effort into something just because microsoft got greedy? Why should he not have the right to complain about it if they make him?

Since Microsoft is giving their new operating system away for free, where the fuck does the greed argument come from? He doesn't have to pay anything for it. He also has the right to complain as much as he wants, but he is not entitled to actually get those complaints addressed unless he does so himself.

No one is doing that you water-brained dipshit. As I and others have said repeadedly: You don't have to upgrade to Windows 10.

Except that there is an undue burden placed on us to take steps not to upgrade. Which is unfair.

Weren't you the one who was always saying that he doesn't much care about things like fair or morality questions? Why the change of tune? Microsoft's insistence may be annoying as fuck, and it is on many metrics unethical, but it is not illegal.

As for your car example, plenty of states have adopted admission standards that require you get your car inspected and if it doesn't meet them, you have to get it fixed so that it meets the standards, or jump through hoops (far more than doing a Google search) to get a waiver.

Except that in this case your car not only has not failed but passed the test with flying colors. The clerk is just being obstinate like you are now.

A more apt comparison is an old model car that starts experiencing problems with lack of support because there are no more spare parts made for it. When it breaks down, then fuck yes you have to buy a newer model of car and if it's not the exact same as the old one, that is again too bad.

Those who wish to keep their old stuff running until the end of time have the options to
1) do it all themselves, including spend the time and effort required
2) find someone who is willing to help them for free
3) pay someone else to do it for them

Option one takes a hell of a lot of time, which is directly away from whatever productive work they want to do.
Option two is really fucking difficult to find and if you take it for granted or bitch too much, it will go away.
Option three gets really fucking expensive really fast, to the point that it would have been better to just upgrade in the first place.

[Civil War Man]

It's the cost of doing business. And yes, demanding that new Operating Systems cater to people who have refused to upgrade thier software in a decade and a half is totally unreasonable.

It's not always that cut and dried. The US navy, for example, is paying Microsoft over $9 million per year to continue to develop security patches for Windows XP for them, because it could take them as long as mid 2017 to finish upgrading all of their XP equipment and replacing all of their software that's not compatible with 7 or later. And some of that is because the equipment literally cannot be replaced for months because it is on a ship that's currently deployed somewhere.

I don't have any clients who are in that extreme a situation, but for every one I have who won't upgrade because they are a luddite, I have at least one who can't because they don't have the budget for new equipment or software or their
vendor hasn't gotten their shit together and released a version of their software that works on 10.

[Executor32]

Because if you want to submit any document anywhere it requires formatting and possibly even an export to PDF. Things you can't do without decent office software. And the only decent office software happens to be MSOffice.

Wordpad does text formatting, has enough other features to suffice for most people's word processing needs, and it can save to Word's .docx format. If you then need to make it a PDF, you can convert it with the free Foxit Reader.

That said, while it may be fuck-ugly and has had no support from Microsoft whatsoever for 7 years, Korto's Office 2000 should work on Windows 10 without issue. He'd still have to use Foxit or the like if he needed to make a PDF, though, since Microsoft didn't add built-in PDF export until Office 2007.

[Tribble]

A more apt comparison is an old model car that starts experiencing problems with lack of support because there are no more spare parts made for it. When it breaks down, then fuck yes you have to buy a newer model of car and if it's not the exact same as the old one, that is again too bad.

The problem isn't that at all, the problem is choice. When I go to buy a new PC I expect Windows 10 to be the default OS, that's no real issue for me. I do have a problem with Microsoft essentially sabotaging my current OS in order to try and force me to upgrade. If and when I want Windows 10 on my computer I will happily install it myself. I should not be forced into a never-ending battle with Microsoft just to keep my current OS.

To use the car analogy, it's the equivalent of owning a car that still works fine and has plenty of spare parts available. The next time you bring it into the dealership for service they advise you to buy a new car, and when you decline they try their best to sabotage your car so that you have to anyways.

I've been using Microsoft's operating systems since DOS, but between the spying, intellectual property rights clauses and blatant disregard for user preferences this is the first time I've seriously considered switching over to Mac or Linux when my current PC dies.

[Flagg]

As for your car example, plenty of states have adopted admission standards that require you get your car inspected and if it doesn't meet them, you have to get it fixed so that it meets the standards, or jump through hoops (far more than doing a Google search) to get a waiver. So you fail on every level, you are not a person, go away.

Which would qualify as "something wrong with your car," dontcha think?

Not necessarily. Your car can function perfectly well without meeting a states emission standards.

[TheFeniX]

The US navy, for example, is paying Microsoft over $9 million per year to continue to develop security patches for Windows XP for them, because it could take them as long as mid 2017 to finish upgrading all of their XP equipment and replacing all of their software that's not compatible with 7 or later. And some of that is because the equipment literally cannot be replaced for months because it is on a ship that's currently deployed somewhere.

Not to mention schools, libraries, and other non-profits who may not have the money to upgrade their software even with free OS upgrades. If not for ERATE (which funding is/was based off how many kids were enrolled in the free lunch program) and TIF, I don't know how they would even get new PCs at all. Other states have to have their own systems. I know I had numerous issues getting the lunch and attendance trackers to work with XP. One school was so poor (a charter school in Houston) their tracking app was coded by a teacher's son for use with Windows 95.

I suppose more people could donate man hours to make old software work with new operating systems, as the Gate's Foundation could dump multiple PCs off on a library/school but the workers had little time to make something outside Office work, but I needed a few weekends to myself.

I've also done more than a few hours of work with government medical tracking, such as for medicaid/care. One was for what I would describe as hospice care for people who had no money, family, whatever. Their entire compensation system required dial-in access and manual entry of data through a terminal. In fact, the government side was so outdated, they actually required an External USRobotics 56k modem. Like, a specific model. Sure, I beat a different one into shape and got it working on WinXP, but you're talking manhours and on-site shit like that costs money. I can only imagine the hammer used to make that dinosaur work on W7+.

To keep this weird car analogy going, it's like winning a car on a TV show and not having the money to pay the sales tax.

[Edi]

A more apt comparison is an old model car that starts experiencing problems with lack of support because there are no more spare parts made for it. When it breaks down, then fuck yes you have to buy a newer model of car and if it's not the exact same as the old one, that is again too bad.

The problem isn't that at all, the problem is choice. When I go to buy a new PC I expect Windows 10 to be the default OS, that's no real issue for me. I do have a problem with Microsoft essentially sabotaging my current OS in order to try and force me to upgrade. If and when I want Windows 10 on my computer I will happily install it myself. I should not be forced into a never-ending battle with Microsoft just to keep my current OS.

To use the car analogy, it's the equivalent of owning a car that still works fine and has plenty of spare parts available. The next time you bring it into the dealership for service they advise you to buy a new car, and when you decline they try their best to sabotage your car so that you have to anyways.

I've been using Microsoft's operating systems since DOS, but between the spying, intellectual property rights clauses and blatant disregard for user preferences this is the first time I've seriously considered switching over to Mac or Linux when my current PC dies.

I can certainly understand that.

Just now checked the updates of February's Patch Tuesday and there are two new ones that are Windows 10 nagware updates by all indications, another update from two years ago (in revision 17) was forcibly enabled for at least the fifth time and Windows 10 upgrade was automatically checked to be applied.

So I certainly won't blame anyone for being pissed at Microsoft, which is acting like a gigantic asshole, though still within the limits of the law. I also won't blame anyone for switching off of Windows entirely. May do that myself at some point, or at least run a dual boot configuration (with the operating systems on different hard drives).

It still doesn't invalidate the points made earlier, nor does the failure of various instances to plan enough ahead to avoid running on 20 year old systems because nobody bothered to do anything about them when it was still feasible.

[Korto]

MS Office Excel and Access are compatible with VB 6. Word (as opposed to WordPad) also has a spelling and grammar checker, and the ability to create and edit tables.

Do you get angry at not being able to purchase carbon filament light bulbs, too?

Nice analogy with the light bulb, though. That's good. Because there's so many similarities between a light bulb and software, let's list them:
1) Light bulbs have a short life span, die, and need to be replaced.
2) Light bulbs do one thing, and don't come packed with more and more 'features' every year.
3) Old light bulbs use far more energy than new light bulbs, and therefore have a measurable effect upon the environment.
4) When I use a new light bulb, I can plug it into the same, hundred year old, socket, and I don't need to rewire the entire house.
5) When I plug in a new light bulb, I don't have to worry about the fridge stopping working for some obscure reason.
Oh, sorry; light bulbs and software don't seem to have very many things in common at all, do they?

I see hyperbole fails you. Magnificent.

I'm familiar with hyperbole. I'm also familiar with hyperbole used to strawman and then ridicule another person's position. Interestingly, I believe the Luddites fell victim to something similar.


Help me out here, Flagg. I'm looking at my first post, and trying to find where I:
(1) Said that MicroSoft should continue to support sixteen year old software
(2) Complained that they weren't.

So do I.

The main thing that concerns me is will I be able to run my Office 2000 and Visual Basic 6 ? I don't want to buy modern software, the stuff I have does me fine.

Sometimes I kind of feel upgrading from XP to 7 was a mistake--I lost convenience. I have programs on a thumbdrive, and with XP I could just stick those in the Start Menu, easy, and the computer would run them. Can't do that with 7 (there is a work-around, but it's ugly). And the Recent Documents folder is gone--yes, every application now has its own, but that means I've got to go searching for wherever the hell the pdf viewer or whatever is through the menus.

And I hate feeling pushed.

[Tribble]

It still doesn't invalidate the points made earlier, nor does the failure of various instances to plan enough ahead to avoid running on 20 year old systems because nobody bothered to do anything about them when it was still feasible.

Oh I agree on that point. I know someone in that exact scenario - he put off upgrading for so long that all of his hardware and software is completely obsolete, and he'd have to buy everything from scratch. Not to mention the headaches of retraining everyone on the new software and data migration (At this point I don't think any of his data could be migrated and he'd have to enter everything in manually). To put it into perspective, in order to fix some stability issues with his network he was very recently forced to upgrade all of his computers... to Windows XP. I believe he was still using 98/2000 before that. Now whenever one of his computers acts up he has to go hunting for an IT guy who still knows how to deal with XP, and when one of them dies he's stuck looking on Ebay for a replacement. He really should have stayed at least somewhat up to date.

[Broomstick]

It's not that the "luddites" are demanding the new operating systems accommodate them - they don't want the new system. Period.

[Flagg]

MS Office Excel and Access are compatible with VB 6. Word (as opposed to WordPad) also has a spelling and grammar checker, and the ability to create and edit tables.

Nice analogy with the light bulb, though. That's good. Because there's so many similarities between a light bulb and software, let's list them:
1) Light bulbs have a short life span, die, and need to be replaced.
2) Light bulbs do one thing, and don't come packed with more and more 'features' every year.
3) Old light bulbs use far more energy than new light bulbs, and therefore have a measurable effect upon the environment.
4) When I use a new light bulb, I can plug it into the same, hundred year old, socket, and I don't need to rewire the entire house.
5) When I plug in a new light bulb, I don't have to worry about the fridge stopping working for some obscure reason.
Oh, sorry; light bulbs and software don't seem to have very many things in common at all, do they?

I see hyperbole fails you. Magnificent.

I'm familiar with hyperbole. I'm also familiar with hyperbole used to strawman and then ridicule another person's position.

Strawman? Yeah, not a strawman, just a bad example as Edi said, and I'm happy to concede to that. However the hyperbole was lumping you in with the whiners who complained about the big bad organization (in that case the US Government) forcing them (or to use your wordage: "push") to stop using ancient technology by taking it off the market. So I'll admit the hyperbole was inaccurate, but it was far from a strawman.

Help me out here, Flagg. I'm looking at my first post, and trying to find where I:
(1) Said that MicroSoft should continue to support sixteen year old software
(2) Complained that they weren't.

So do I.

The main thing that concerns me is will I be able to run my Office 2000 and Visual Basic 6 ? I don't want to buy modern software, the stuff I have does me fine.

Sometimes I kind of feel upgrading from XP to 7 was a mistake--I lost convenience. I have programs on a thumbdrive, and with XP I could just stick those in the Start Menu, easy, and the computer would run them. Can't do that with 7 (there is a work-around, but it's ugly). And the Recent Documents folder is gone--yes, every application now has its own, but that means I've got to go searching for wherever the hell the pdf viewer or whatever is through the menus.

And I hate feeling pushed.

You said you were concerned that you wouldn't be able to use your ancient software. Logically this leads any rational person to believe that you think MS should continue to support your ancient software. Not to mention your thinking that upgrading from an equally ancient OS was a mistake. And that you hate feeling "pushed" is just icing on the lol-cake since its been repeated ad nauseum that you don't have to upgrade, you can avoid it completely. But then you would have to do something, and you seem to not want to do anything. But by all means, continue backpedaling.

[Flagg]

It's not that the "luddites" are demanding the new operating systems accommodate them - they don't want the new system. Period.

Yes, and I'll say what I and others have said over and over, which either post-skimming has caused you to miss, or you are just flat out being obnoxious and ignoring: YOU DO NOT HAVE TO UPGRADE, THERE ARE WAYS TO AVOID DOING SO. Period.

[Broomstick]

Oh, sure - my household is computer literate enough to do that.

The problem is that not everyone is that computer literate, and the way MS is going about this does result in people winding up with an upgrade they don't want.

Frankly, why are you so fucking upset at other peoples' issues over this? Do you bitch about Amish people not using electricity, too?

[Ralin]

Not necessarily. Your car can function perfectly well without meeting a states emission standards.

If it doesn't meet emission standards then its presumably at least somewhat contributing to harm to other people in general. Me wanting to keep using an older version of Word or whatever because I don't want to figure out the next hieroglyph menu thing Microsoft decided to add for no discernible reason doesn't do that in any way I can think of other than apparently using old software being bad past a certain point.

Frankly I'm with Broomstick here. Why is this something you care about? My computer skills are so-so at best, but I could probably figure out most changes, sure. I'd still rather have as much choice as possible to keep using what I know works. Trying to slip in constant "You really should upgrade, here let us make it easier for you to do it!!!" messages doesn't take that choice away, but it does mean more of a hassle. Which seems like something worth bitching for consumers who are affected.

[Zaune]

I can sort of see where Microsoft are coming from, mind you. At the moment they're stuck doing security patches for three completely different operating systems besides 10, which must be costing them a fortune in duplicated effort, and backwards compatibility is a non-trivial exercise when you're dealing with third-party software that isn't getting updated because the company that developed it either discontinued it or flat-out doesn't exist anymore.

[Broomstick]

Yeah, well, manufacturers of things like cars have to worry about long-term liability, making replacement parts (for at least awhile) and so on. I'm sure Microsoft finds certain things about being so damn popular annoying, but I'm not sure that justifies them imposing costs on everyone else.

[Zaune]

I can't really argue with that, and Microsoft's own choices have made the problem a lot worse than it had to be. But in all fairness to them, up until quite recently long-term liability for computer equipment was mostly an issue for large businesses with embedded systems; the median lifespan of a typical home PC between 1995 and 2001 was something like five years, because the technology was getting better so fast that it was still worthwhile to start over from scratch.