Imperial Army Battlegroup

[zezia]

I have been trying to figure out on what would it take to transport an entire Imperial Army line battlegroup which has 10,219 troopers, 4191 support personnel, 511 repulsorcraft and 53 heavy tanks.
Would it take serveral ships to transport the troopers and the equipment or just one like the Acclamator-class assault ship?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Line_battlegroup

[Simon_Jester]

Well, realistically you need a ship the size of a large ocean liner just to have places to put all the crew. The armored vehicles would take up volume comparable to that by themselves; AT-ATs are biiiig and even merely normal tanks add up to a hell of a lot of volume when you're packing 500 of them.

So I suspect you need a troopship that is drastically larger than any real life oceangoing ship, with the exception of the very largest oil tankers and superfreighters.

Is an Acclamator that big? If so, the troops will fit; if not, they won't.

[Lord Revan]

IIRC the Acclamator-class was 752 meters long and designed to carry large numbers of troops from AOTC we know it can carry AT-TEs and those huge self propelled field artillery walkers the clone army uses (the ones used to shoot down the TradeFed coreships).

We also have the Venator Star Destroyers that impressive cargo space (it's implied in ROTS that all of Yoda's forces were carried on a handful of these ships.

[Esquire]

As per Wookiepedia, the troop complement of an Acclamator is over 16,000 troops, as well as "countless" walkers, gunships, and speeders. Probably that covers 550 vehicles; at most, you might need two assault ships per battlegroup.

[Simon_Jester]

IIRC the Acclamator-class was 752 meters long and designed to carry large numbers of troops from AOTC we know it can carry AT-TEs and those huge self propelled field artillery walkers the clone army uses (the ones used to shoot down the TradeFed coreships).

We know they do carry such heavy vehicles and personnel, but it's hard to be sure how many men and vehicles each ship carries without, say, a detailed cross-section portrayal showing the size of the troop spaces.

Basically, the stated canon troop capacity of the ship is all very well and good, but if the ships physically aren't big enough to fit that many soldiers, we can only assume that the canon author made a mistake and ignore it. However, a 752-meter ship with the overall form factor of an Acclamator would definitely have enough space that it could reasonably carry an infantry division plus hundreds of heavy and dozens of superheavy vehicles, assuming that a large percentage of its total internal volume is devoted to troop and vehicle storage.

So it appears credible that the Acclamators could carry such a battlegroup, with at most some minor refits to make sure they can physically store the relevant vehicle classes (AT-ATs might need special docking bays or something).

[Adam Reynolds]

According to the old ICS books, an Acclamator carried 48 AT-TE walkers, 36 SPHA-T artillery pieces, 320 speeder bikers and 80 gunships. In addition to the 16,000 troops. Though it should also be noted that in Clone Wars, we never seemed to see vessels carrying their full complements. So it is likely that they never did throughout most of the conflict.

If you removed the ability to launch gunships, which appeared to take up the majority of the space, carrying that complement should not be a problem for a single Acclamator. Especially since none of it is likely the same size as a SPHA-T. Though those racks could instead be adapted for the repulsorcraft complements of this unit.

Also, Simon, the Imperial army unit that he is referring to used heavy repuslorlift tanks rather than walkers. So they wouldn't need the space to carry an AT-AT, which would have a far larger vertical footprint than a tank of the same mass. If proper facilities were installed, it would be possible to store smaller repulsorcraft above them.

[fractalsponge1]

Troop space is negligible at SW capital scale. An Acclamator, if it's used as an assault ship and not a mobile base, is enormous for 16k leg infantry. Even if you give each man 20 cubic meters (which is ludicrous), barrack volume is 320,000 m3. That's...like half of the volume of just the dorsal "bump" region under the bridge tower neck, never mind the main hull itself.

What'll really kill you are walkers and dropships. Walkers and dropships are likely the reason ISDs only carry a wing of fighters. By space they could easily handle a Venator's fighter complement, but AT-ATs take up an enormous amount of volume. I did some back of envelope calculations for hypothetical vehicle space recently (begins: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 0#p3912093). Repulsorlift never actually get all that large, and can presumably stack several to the same footprint as a walker, and can self-deploy to boot.

If you trust the sourcebook, out of 16 battalions in the standard battlegroup, 7 of them aren't even mounted, being largely leg infantry. Let's say we go pretty wild with vehicles for this scenario, and we make 3 regiments of repulsorlift infantry, plus 1 armor regiment and an artillery regiment (something like 2000 repulsor and 400 heavy tank equivalents). All of that plus 80 LAAT equivalents and 40 AT-AT could fit in ~9e6 cubic meters in storage configuration. That would be too tight for an Acclamator, but that ship was designed for mostly leg infantry (basically cut out most of the 2400 repulsorlift vehicles), and walkers that are much smaller than an AT-AT in volume. For comparison purposes, a line battlegroup by sourcebook is something like 500 repulsor and 60 heavy tank equivalents, and does not actually include separate artillery formations.

[vengence]

It should be kept in mind, when planning the use of space in starships, the space that is already taken up by things like life support, Engines, main reactor, power conduits, hallways, the ship superstructure, also the ships crew and supply storage ( like food, weapons, additional ammunition, fuel, etc.) and any additional things needed to make space travel possible. These things will most likely take up the majority of a ship's space. A good reference to space allocations would be to look at modern day marine transports.

[Abacus]

vengeance, believe me when I say that fractalspongue1 (aka Ansel) has that covered just fine. In point of fact, his Evakmar ship covers everything -- and carries a full corp, and not just a battlegroup.

[NoogDeNoog]

here are 2 ships I did years ago.
TROOP TRANSPORT VESSEL
CRAFT: Evakmar-KDY August transport
TYPE: August-class corps transport vessel
SCALE: Capital
LENGTH: 1,075 Meters (3,536.90 ft)
SKILL: Capital Ship Piloting: August-class corps transport
CREW: 7,024, Gunners: 94, Skeleton: 3,050/+10
CREW SKILL: Astrogation 4D+1, Capital Ship Gunnery 4D, Capital Ship Piloting 5D, Capital Ship Sensors 3D+2, Capital Ship Shields 4D
TROOPS: 150 (50 Naval Troopers + 100 Stormtroopers)
PASSENGERS: 80,000 Imperial Army Troopers
CARGO CAPACITY: 170,000 metric tons
CONSUMABLES: 2 years
RESTOCKING COST: 637,056,400 Crs.
COST: 1,443,000,000 Crs. (new)
HYPERDRIVE MULTIPLIER: x2
HYPERDRIVE BACKUP: x12
NAV COMPUTER: Yes
MANEUVERABILITY: 0D
SPACE: 4
HULL: 7D+1
SHIELDS: 4D+1
SENSORS:
Passive: 40/0D
Scan: 80/1D
Search: 160/2D+2
Focus: 4/4D
WEAPONS:
4 Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 2 front, 1 right, 1 left
Crew: 4
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150/km
Damage: 7D
10 Turbolaser Cannons
Fire Arc: 5 right, 5 left
Crew: 2
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150/km
Damage: 5D
20 Quad Laser Cannons
Fire Arc: 5 front, 5 right, 5 left, 5 back
Crew: 2
Scale: starfighter
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 4D
Space Range: 1-3/12/75
Atmosphere Range: 100-300/1.2/2.5 km
Damage: 4D
6 Tractor Beam Projectors
Fire Arc: 3 right, 3 left
Crew: 3
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 1-5/15/30
Atmosphere Range: 1-5/15/30
Damage: 4D
STARFIGHTER COMPLEMENT: 2 squadrons of TIE/In's, 1 squadron of TIE Bombers
SUPPORT CRAFT: 4 Lambda-class shuttles, 2 Katarn-class boarding shuttles, 4 Grek-class troop shuttles, 4 MU-3-class shuttles, 2 Aegis-class combat shuttles, 2 AIC-4-class drop-ships, 12 F-7-class drop-ships, 12 MT-191-class drop-ships, 10 Warlord-class drop-ships
GROUND EQUIPMENT: Has room for 7,000 vehicles of all types (from speeder bikes to AT-AT's)
CAPSULE: The development of the August-class corps transport is one of the few instances of real cooperation between the Imperial Army and the Imperial Navy. The ship was purpose built to transport all of the men and equipment of an entire Imperial Army Corps. The August can land 6,708 fully equipped troopers and 583 combat vehicles at one time using all of it's 52 support craft. In addition, the August has 24 TIE/In's to provide escort to the surface and 12 TIE Bombers to provide direct combat support. The August also has an impressive array of firepower with it's turbolaser emplacements and it's anti-starfighter system.

STRIKE CRUISER
CRAFT: Loronar Strike Cruiser PA (planetary assault)
TYPE: Strike-class medium cruiser
SCALE: Capital
LENGTH: 485 Meters (1,591.20 ft)
SKILL: Capital Ship Piloting: Strike-class cruiser
CREW: 1,641 Gunners: 139, Skeleton: 650/+10
CREW SKILL: Astrogation 3D+1, Capital Ship Gunnery 4D, Capital Ship Piloting 4D, Capital Ship Sensors 3D+2, Capital Ship Shields 4D
TROOPS: 1,700 (200 Naval Troopers, 400 Stormtroopers, 50 Stormtrooper Scouts, 1,050 Imperial Army Troopers)
PASSENGERS: 10
CARGO CAPACITY: 7,000 metric tons
CONSUMABLES: 1.5 years
RESTOCKING COST: 19,107,750 Crs.
COST: 32,100,000 Crs. (new)
HYPERDRIVE MULTIPLIER: x2
HYPERDRIVE BACKUP: x12
NAV COMPUTER: Yes
MANEUVERABILITY: 2D+1
SPACE: 6
HULL: 6D
SHIELDS: 3D
SENSORS:
Passive: 30/0D
Scan: 50/1D
Search: 100/2D
Focus: 4/3D
WEAPONS:
10 Turbolasers
Fire Arc: 4 front, 2 left, 2 right, 2 back
Crew: 2
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150 km
Damage: 5D
20 Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 8 front, 4 left, 4 right, 4 back
Crew: 4
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150 km
Damage: 7D
10 Tractor Beam Projectors
Fire Arc: 2 front, 3 left, 3 right, 2 back
Crew: 3
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 1-5/15/30
Atmosphere Range: 1-5/15/30 km
Damage: 4D
3 Ion Cannons
Fire Arc: 1 front, 1 left, 1 right
Crew: 3
Skill: Capital Ship Gunnery
Fire Control: 4D
Space Range: 1-5/15/30
Atmosphere Range: 2-10/30/60 km
Damage: 4D
STARFIGHTER COMPLEMENT: None
SUPPORT CRAFT: 2 Lambda-class shuttles, 1 Grek-class troop shuttle, 2 Aegis-class combat shuttles, 4 MT/191-class drop-ships, 4 F-7-class drop-ships
GROUND EQUIPMENT: 5 AT-AT, 10 AT-ST's, 31 repulsorlift vehicles
CAPSULE: The Strike PA's assault force consists of a reinforced assault battalion and a company of stormtroopers. The PA can land all of it's troopers in two combat assaults. Each assault can consists of 862 fully equipped troopers and half of the ground vehicles the ship carries. In addition, the PA features extra turbolaser batteries for direct ground support. In a standard combat assault, the stormtrooper scouts and the AT-ST's go out and reconnoiter the target area. Then the AT-AT's, with their stormtroopers, commence with an assault on the target area with the support of the assault battalion. Each Sector Group is assigned anywhere from 10 to 50 of these vessels depending on the need for a strong planetary assault force.

[MKSheppard]

even merely normal tanks add up to a hell of a lot of volume when you're packing 500 of them.

SL-7 ships had three basic loadouts:

minimum 122 tanks (43 188 ft 2) and 174 helicopters (61 282 ft2), plus misc. wheeled and tracked vehicles
maximum 183 tanks (64 782 ft 2) plus misc. vehicles
maximum 327 helicopters (128 411 ft 2) plus misc. vehicles

So it's not exactly a big ship that you need.

[Ender]

Real space constraint isn't the people spaces or their hardware. It is the supplies for operations. Food, shells, water, fuel, power, spare parts, medical supplies, gear...

I looked at this some years back. Even allowing that the given sci-fi premise allows some large reductions (e.g. Rechargeable power cells instead of cases of ammunition) you end up just stepping things back, not eliminating them. It is lighter and simpler, but not nearly as much as folks think.

depending on your doctrine and positioning, thumb rule is a prestage of 6 months within the operating area and immediate deployment with 2 weeks worth for heavy operations. That's for the modern low tempo stuff. For war between great powers where supply will be irregular, consumption high, and strong chance of pushback or being temporarily cutoff, you want to land 3-5 months worth when you push. That way when the landing window is cut your forces can keep going despite losses and such until such time that another large landing window opens again

For this tonnage, your shift rate, and its relative density, it gets pretty hefty. Also remember your fleet auxiliaries can't be in constant operation because they will need to repaired as well

[Lord Revan]

I'd say as rule of thumb that if your combat section is larger then the logistical section for any (large) military unit you might want to rethink things. something like an army battlegroup would have to have larger portion of it's personal strenght in the logistical branch then in the actual combat branch.

[Shroom Man 777]

Space-saving technologies would just mean... they get to bring MORE amounts of said gear by filling up the same space taken during pre-optimization eras.

Like if a Stormtrooper's blaster's power pack can carry... the equivalent number of bolts that six30-round M16 mags can carry.... then that doesn't mean the trooper will just carry one power pack... that means he'll carry as many packs as he can carry, so while a modern day soldier might carry 6 magazines... a Stormtrooper might carry the same number of power packs... despite each pack carrying the same amount of shots a modern soldier might have from all the magazines he'd be carrying. (6x6)x30

As for the number of logistics personnel... the equations people here are putting don't include droids, do they? If droids don't count as personnel or people... and if they require less space and such... then all the black evil R2D2s and K2-type droids as well as protocol droids, and droids like that Snape-voiced Imperial droid Chopper befriended, and MOUSE DROIDS, etc. would be left out of the tallies. Some of these models might even be capable of heavy lifting. Heck, their forklifts might be capable of autonomous actions.

Super disciplined brainwashed clonetroopers might need less recreation time and might count as multi-role modular people!

Troopers whose idea of recreationa gym time is... hauling around supply pallets... to destress from shooting and skeletonizing moisture farmers...