Geonosis/Klendathu Swap

[SilverDragonRed]

Scenario is simple. The Grand Armee of the Republic from AOTC and the Mobile Infantry from Starship Troopers (film) switch places. Standard equipment for each group.

Can the Clones succeed at Klendathu? And how well can the MI do at Geonosis?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Given that the Clones had small arms way more powerful than an assault rifle, had vehiclse, artillery and air support, they will win at Klendathu.

The Mobile Infantry at Geonosis? They will be utterly slaughtered.

[PREDATOR490]

Is this the movie MI ?

MI gets mauled to death - Their technology is woefully under-matched, they have little to no vehicle support and are used to going up against enemies that are primarily shit at ranged combat.

Clone army - The bugs get slaughtered for being the opposite of the MI. They have a wider array of powerful technology and access to massively more combat support options. The Clones could happily sit back and call down repeated strikes from space with impunity. The big bugs that shoot into space as their only AA options are going to be laughed at.

[Lord Revan]

we counting only Geonosian hardware here or are we including the CIS droid army present at Geonosis during AOTC?

since if we include the CIS hardware the Mobile Infantry probably won't even see a geonosian before they're force to retreat/surrender. I suspect that even the B-1 droids would be a though nut to crack for the MI.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. The movies' Mobile Infantry are a rather sad joke tactically and strategically, which is perhaps not a surprise since the movies are an anti-military parody of a fascist dystopia.

It would be more interesting to use the Mobile Infantry from Heinlein's novel. The M.I. would probably acquit themselves rather well.

Although if you gave an M.I. expeditionary force the same mission given to the Grand Army of the Republic on Geonosis... I suspect they would have dropped as close as possible to the arena, while delivering massed nuclear bombardment to the rest of the planet. Whether that would work depends on how good Star Wars shielding really is, a subject for independent speculation.

I am quite sure M.I. ground combat weapons could compete with Star Wars military technology; blasters are nasty but not that nasty.

As soon as they had successfully evacuated the Jedi from the arena they'd probably pull everyone off the planet and wreck it with a nova bomb.

[Captain Seafort]

I am quite sure M.I. ground combat weapons could compete with Star Wars military technology; blasters are nasty but not that nasty.

I'm not so sure they could. If you just compare infantry the MI would walk all over anything in Star Wars, but their lack of combined arms tactics is a serious weakness, and leaves them far short of the capabilities of both the Republic and the Confederacy in terms of both firepower and mobility.

Firepower: Their armour might be able to withstand blaster fire, given that Rico was astounded at the notion of a fellow MI's armour having a hole in it in the first chapter, having previously regarded building-flattening firepower as worth the effort, from the enemy's perspective, to kill a single MI, but that won't help against SW anti-vehicle weapons. They may have kT range LAWs, but AT-AT main guns are at least 10 kT range, and LAAT/i missiles are up to 100 kT, so it's likely that CIS weapons are roughly equivalent. They certainly don't have to sort of heavy AAA the Grand Army could bring to bear (i.e. the SPHA-Ts).

Mobility: Again, and far more obviously they're vastly inferior to the LAAT/is - they can certainly bounce forwards far faster than clonetroopers, and probably their supporting vehicles, but they can't compete with either the speed or altitude proper CAS is capable of.

[Elheru Aran]

Part of the problem is that we never see very much of the military in Starship Troopers (the novel) beyond, obviously, the MI and slices of the Navy. So we don't really know what they have on hand besides the MI. There could well be a passage somewhere that states something like "the MI is the Federation's only infantry" or something like that, but I doubt Heinlein would have been so short-sighted in military matters to write something like that.

The movies, well, what a fucking shit-show. Those guys aren't worth it.

[Captain Seafort]

Part of the problem is that we never see very much of the military in Starship Troopers (the novel) beyond, obviously, the MI and slices of the Navy. So we don't really know what they have on hand besides the MI. There could well be a passage somewhere that states something like "the MI is the Federation's only infantry" or something like that, but I doubt Heinlein would have been so short-sighted in military matters to write something like that.

It's very heavily implied, as Rico didn't specifically apply to the equivalent of the Paras - on the list of preferred arms of service he filled out the MI were simply listed as "infantry". Even worse, Rico's obvious contempt for armoured warfare ("a single MI private could take on a squadron of those things and knock them off unassisted if anybody was silly enough put tanks against MI") implies that the logic of combining MI armour and power density with the far superior volume/surface area ratio of a vehicle has not been thought through. I doubt there's any light infantry in science fiction who could take on the MI and win, but they're still just light infantry.

[Simon_Jester]

Sure, the M.I. are light infantry. But on the other hand they are "light infantry" with kiloton-range guided missiles as squad level support weapons. They are also both highly mobile and highly dispersed.

I honestly think they'd fare at least as well against CIS armor as the clonetroopers do- clonetroopers don't go around packing one or more nuclear bazookas per ten clones. They aren't equipped to handle things like the gigantic "core ships" and whatnot... but those are exactly the sort of targets I'd expect the M.I. to bombard from orbit rather than attacking on foot.

Also, while it's pretty clear that the Federation doesn't have any heavy armored ground vehicles capable of being 'spacedropped' from orbit to support M.I. operations, the story's more open as to whether they have effective air support. The Navy's routine use of flexible bombardment to support M.I. operations suggests that they do have such support, or its equivalent.

As to whether the Terran Federation's navy possesses weapons capable of knocking out things like grounded core ships... they do have bombs that can "crack a planet open," so I suspect they have bombs or missiles in the right general firepower range to do the job.

[Captain Seafort]

Sure, the M.I. are light infantry. But on the other hand they are "light infantry" with kiloton-range guided missiles as squad level support weapons. They are also both highly mobile and highly dispersed.

Agreed

I honestly think they'd fare at least as well against CIS armor as the clonetroopers do- clonetroopers don't go around packing one or more nuclear bazookas per ten clones.

Clonetroopers also had LAAT/is and AT-TEs in support.

They aren't equipped to handle things like the gigantic "core ships" and whatnot... but those are exactly the sort of targets I'd expect the M.I. to bombard from orbit rather than attacking on foot.

The problem is that they'd be in trouble in the sort of situation the clones were in - relying on organic AAA (which MI don't have) to take out the core ships. Their capital ships might have the firepower to take them out, but they'd also take out their own troops - "danger close" doesn't even begin to describe GT scale blasts a few miles away.

Also, while it's pretty clear that the Federation doesn't have any heavy armored ground vehicles capable of being 'spacedropped' from orbit to support M.I. operations, the story's more open as to whether they have effective air support. The Navy's routine use of flexible bombardment to support M.I. operations suggests that they do have such support, or its equivalent.

The only support I can recall involved plastering the areas of a planet they weren't interested in with nuclear weapons until they were uninhabitable, and orbit-to-surface transport (which was implied to be poorly protected, as the MI needed to form a screen around it while they were boarding). There was nothing in terms of tactical naval gunfire support or CAS.

As to whether the Terran Federation's navy possesses weapons capable of knocking out things like grounded core ships... they do have bombs that can "crack a planet open," so I suspect they have bombs or missiles in the right general firepower range to do the job.

Their heaviest weapons certainly come close to DS-scale, but they didn't seem to have any intermediate (for want of a better term) firepower comparable to a BDZ. When they bombarded Planet P, they reduced the areas not involved in the operation to "radioactive glaze", but still maintained low-orbit patrols to keep an eye on it in case the bugs stuck their heads up. That wouldn't have been necessary with BDZ-level bombardment. This therefore raises doubts about whether their starships have the firepower to go toe-to-toe with their CIS counterparts, which certainly could give and take BDZ firepower.

[Simon_Jester]

The problem is that they'd be in trouble in the sort of situation the clones were in - relying on organic AAA (which MI don't have) to take out the core ships. Their capital ships might have the firepower to take them out, but they'd also take out their own troops - "danger close" doesn't even begin to describe GT scale blasts a few miles away.

I've always found this problematic because gigaton-range energy weapons should have similar effect. They wouldn't just burn nice pretty holes through a large armored target; there'd be backblast comparable to nuclear weapons, rivers of molten metal pouring out of the wreckage of the ship, and so on.

Also, while it's pretty clear that the Federation doesn't have any heavy armored ground vehicles capable of being 'spacedropped' from orbit to support M.I. operations, the story's more open as to whether they have effective air support. The Navy's routine use of flexible bombardment to support M.I. operations suggests that they do have such support, or its equivalent.

The only support I can recall involved plastering the areas of a planet they weren't interested in with nuclear weapons until they were uninhabitable, and orbit-to-surface transport (which was implied to be poorly protected, as the MI needed to form a screen around it while they were boarding). There was nothing in terms of tactical naval gunfire support or CAS.

I don't know, my impression is that it was heavily implied by the operations on Planet P. Basically, the M.I. are operating dispersed in a way that just doesn't make sense, even with their high level of firepower, unless there's some kind of heavy fire support for them to call down on any concentrations of Bug warriors coming up.

Their heaviest weapons certainly come close to DS-scale, but they didn't seem to have any intermediate (for want of a better term) firepower comparable to a BDZ. When they bombarded Planet P, they reduced the areas not involved in the operation to "radioactive glaze", but still maintained low-orbit patrols to keep an eye on it in case the bugs stuck their heads up. That wouldn't have been necessary with BDZ-level bombardment. This therefore raises doubts about whether their starships have the firepower to go toe-to-toe with their CIS counterparts, which certainly could give and take BDZ firepower.

The patrols were to watch the areas the Navy hadn't glassed...

[Adam Reynolds]

I've always found this problematic because gigaton-range energy weapons should have similar effect. They wouldn't just burn nice pretty holes through a large armored target; there'd be backblast comparable to nuclear weapons, rivers of molten metal pouring out of the wreckage of the ship, and so on.

Curtis Saxton had previously argued that the reason that we don't see that level of firepower with SW weapons in use is because of active systems that suppress the energy. He came up with the rather clever solution of neutrino generators that dumped the waste heat in a harmless form. Which would have the bonus of explaining why Coruscant didn't cook itself.

The problem here is that this means that we never actually see just how powerful SW weapons are and can never really make judgements with any precision. Even Alderaan, the standard in high level firepower, had a shield that resisted and thus presumably dumped energy out of the system in some form.

[NecronLord]

From a Doylian perspective it's simple enough; the writers of SW didn't think about the implications of huge accelerations, BDZ and such examples, so while some shows, like SG1 and Star Trek, have higher acceleration vessels, they usually have thought about explaining their drive systems and so avoid these seeming inconsistencies, by solutions like mass lightning which allow for plausibly lower weapons firepower.

[Simon_Jester]

The problem here is that this means that we never actually see just how powerful SW weapons are and can never really make judgements with any precision.

The other problem is that this makes it utterly impossible to use modus tollens, which is one of the basic rules of deductive logic, and runs like "if X were true, we'd expect result Y, Y doesn't happen, so X isn't true."

This is at the foundation of all science and most good logic, and when you can't do it at all, it's inevitable that you'll get confirmation bias run amok as a result.

And as a result you get stubborn insistence on the 'hardline' interpretation in edge cases. For example, a ship which has just powered up and is lifting off is clearly an edge case in terms of "will this ship be able to resist the maximum theoretically possible quantity of energy from an attack?" It's in atmosphere which may compromise shields designed for vacuum, it's just lifted off which may compromise shields not intended to work near the ground, it's just 'woken up' which may mean it's running on emergency or partial power.

But instead we get "well, we know the ship absolutely has to be able to make gigaton-range bolts mysteriously disappear and dissipate harmlessly, therefore the SPHA-T must be firing something even bigger and nastier than that, despite the total lack of side effects."

I mean seriously, the mere act of such an energetic beam passing through atmosphere should dissipate tremendous amounts of energy, like having a long slender rod-shaped volume carved out of a nuclear fireball along the path of the beam. Direct energy transfer on that scale is simply never going to be dainty or pretty, even if it doesn't result in a huge apocalyptic event.

[Q99]

Aside from just the weapon difference, the fact that Clone Troopers are more likely to try and maintain distance rather than rushing forward and using up their range advantage.

Plus, Jedi will help prevent Bug breakouts where contact with the lines is made. While taking on bugs with Lightsabers won't be fun, especially the more skilled Jedi can do it and help make bugs reaching melee less completely terrifying.

It's very heavily implied, as Rico didn't specifically apply to the equivalent of the Paras - on the list of preferred arms of service he filled out the MI were simply listed as "infantry". Even worse, Rico's obvious contempt for armoured warfare ("a single MI private could take on a squadron of those things and knock them off unassisted if anybody was silly enough put tanks against MI") implies that the logic of combining MI armour and power density with the far superior volume/surface area ratio of a vehicle has not been thought through. I doubt there's any light infantry in science fiction who could take on the MI and win, but they're still just light infantry.

Something the tech of the universe really encourages.

I can name some that can take on book MI, but they aren't common.

[Simon_Jester]

Hm. Clonetroopers would be far better and more effective than movie M.I., and would probably do rather well in the job of book M.I., although they'd approach certain issues differently (less casual mass destruction "terror raids" throwing around bombs and mini-nukes).

[Kingmaker]

Plus, Jedi will help prevent Bug breakouts where contact with the lines is made. While taking on bugs with Lightsabers won't be fun, especially the more skilled Jedi can do it and help make bugs reaching melee less completely terrifying.

There really wouldn't be much reason for the Jedi to try and get into hand to hand combat with the bugs.

Where I think they'll come in most handy is as bug detectors. Even in the novel, where the MI and their leadership are far more competent and effective, the attack on Klendathu was a complete fiasco. I vaguely recall that a large part of this was that they were not really prepared for the bugs' ability to use tunnels to surprise them. Later we even see them bring out a psychic for this purpose. If the Jedi can warn their troops prior a bunch of giant space bugs tunneling out the ground, that will go a long way towards alleviating that problem.

The movie MI is fucked on Geonosis. Frankly, they'd probably have a rough time with the Georgia State Defense Force. I'm not sure how the book MI fares, simply because there aren't very many of them: a MI division has a paper strength of ~10k, and I think the Klendathu attack force was only a few divisions.

[Darth Nostril]

Their heaviest weapons certainly come close to DS-scale, but they didn't seem to have any intermediate (for want of a better term) firepower comparable to a BDZ. When they bombarded Planet P, they reduced the areas not involved in the operation to "radioactive glaze", but still maintained low-orbit patrols to keep an eye on it in case the bugs stuck their heads up. That wouldn't have been necessary with BDZ-level bombardment. This therefore raises doubts about whether their starships have the firepower to go toe-to-toe with their CIS counterparts, which certainly could give and take BDZ firepower.

The whole point of the Planet P operation was to capture a queen bug & a brain bug, BDZing the planet would have been somewhat counterproductive.

[Simon_Jester]

[I'm talking about the novel here]

In regards to numbers...

For the task of securing and rescuing the Jedi, a few divisions of M.I. would probably be adequate to secure the area around the arena itself, to a radius of... probably several miles.

M.I. mostly use weapons that are, by all evidence, significantly heavier than the average clonetrooper's blaster. On Planet P (where we get our best picture of large scale M.I. operations), Rico is seriously nervous about the prospect of friendly fire when his soldiers are spread out with ten or twenty square miles per man! This suggests that their weapons are both long-ranged and potentially have wide area effect.

So honestly, if a few divisions of M.I. are available, there's a good chance that this is actually too many to all drop around the arena, because they'd just be getting in each other's way.

...

Then we have the question of what missions would be carried out across the rest of Geonosis. M.I. doctrine would be to rely on orbital bombardment to wipe out all those droid foundries and concentrations of battledroids- even on Planet P they carpet-bombed with nukes any territory that was not part of the area they were planning to be fighting over.

So the only real question is, will the M.I.'s space support be capable of doing the job? Geonosis doesn't have a full-up planetary shield, so far as we know (or if it did, the Geonosians never managed to activate it to defend the planet). The OP is ambiguous about whether the Grand Army of the Republic's "standard equipment" includes their starships- if we assume the M.I. deploy from M.I transports and naval vessels, it comes down to whether the Federation Navy has bombs big and nasty enough to destroy Star Wars ground targets.

I think they just might.

[Q99]

There really wouldn't be much reason for the Jedi to try and get into hand to hand combat with the bugs.

Not as a preference of course, just 'in case Bugs reach clone troopers, put Jedi there.' We see Jedi fight big animals often enough.

Where I think they'll come in most handy is as bug detectors. Even in the novel, where the MI and their leadership are far more competent and effective, the attack on Klendathu was a complete fiasco. I vaguely recall that a large part of this was that they were not really prepared for the bugs' ability to use tunnels to surprise them. Later we even see them bring out a psychic for this purpose. If the Jedi can warn their troops prior a bunch of giant space bugs tunneling out the ground, that will go a long way towards alleviating that problem.

Good point, that's quite useful.

Though I will note that book bugs had guns, so it's not *just* their inability to find them underground that was a problem in the book.

The movie MI is fucked on Geonosis. Frankly, they'd probably have a rough time with the Georgia State Defense Force. I'm not sure how the book MI fares, simply because there aren't very many of them: a MI division has a paper strength of ~10k, and I think the Klendathu attack force was only a few divisions.

Their 'on the bounce' tactics would be very hard to respond to with SW tech.

[Captain Seafort]

I don't know, my impression is that it was heavily implied by the operations on Planet P. Basically, the M.I. are operating dispersed in a way that just doesn't make sense, even with their high level of firepower, unless there's some kind of heavy fire support for them to call down on any concentrations of Bug warriors coming up.

That would make sense, but there's no evidence of it. Rico gives a detailed breakdown of the comm channels he has available, and fire support isn't on the list.

The patrols were to watch the areas the Navy hadn't glassed...

Nope:

The Navy had plastered the islands and that unoccupied part of the continent until they were radioactive glaze; we could tackle Bugs with no worries about our rear. The Navy also maintained a ball-of-yarn patrol in tight orbits around the planet, guarding us, escorting transports, keeping a spy watch on the surface to make sure that Bugs did not break out behind us despite that plastering.

There's also, again, no mention of them providing on-call fire support.

The whole point of the Planet P operation was to capture a queen bug & a brain bug, BDZing the planet would have been somewhat counterproductive.

I'm not talking about a BDZ, but of applying that sort of firepower to the bits they're not interested in. The fact that they were worried about breakouts behind them shows they don't have quite that sort of firepower.

[Simon_Jester]

It shows they didn't literally reduce the uninteresting parts of the planet to a sea of lava.

But Bugs have the ability to tunnel very, very rapidly; they are not digging ants, they're a tool-using species. It is believable that they might dig a tunnel many miles out through the bombarded areas, and then surface in them anyway. As long as the crust is physically solid, this is a risk.

Even if the Federation had the level of firepower it would take to reduce a large portion of the planetary crust to lava (admittedly uncertain even if they do have nova bombs capable of "splitting" a planet from a single point source detonation), using it on Planet P might well be unwise. The environmental degradation and ground shockwaves associated with that level of bombardment would risk killing off the brain bugs and queens they're hoping to capture. And it wouldn't serve very much of a purpose, either, because the Navy would still need to maintain patrols anyway (if only to stop Bug ships from attacking the M.I. on the surface), and monitoring the surface while they do so isn't much of a handicap.

ST, p189 wrote:

The Navy had plastered the islands and that unoccupied part of the continent until they were radioactive glaze; we could tackle Bugs with no worries about our rear. The Navy also maintained a ball-of-yarn patrol in tight orbits around the planet, guarding us, escorting transports, keeping a spy watch on the surface to make sure that Bugs did not break out behind us despite that plastering.

There's also, again, no mention of them providing on-call fire support.

Conceded that the M.I. do not show evidence of having low-level officers or soldiers (Rico's perspective) capable of calling down orbital fire support. If orbital fire support is available, then it must be coordinated at the company level or (probably) above.

The Navy has to have some kind of rapid-reaction firepower, though, or they wouldn't be able to respond effectively in the event of a Bug breakout.

Remember, what I'm picturing the Federation military doing in a case like Geonosis is sending down a "drop" to rescue the captives (and/or rescue the rescuers) around the arena... but the rest of the planet they'd just bomb the hell out of, because that's exactly what they do on a regular basis. This doesn't necessarily require close coordination between space and ground forces, it boils down to "okay, rescue the prisoners in this square while we nuke everything else, and we'll drop the really big nukes after your dropships have left."

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Yeah. The movies' Mobile Infantry are a rather sad joke tactically and strategically, which is perhaps not a surprise since the movies are an anti-military parody of a fascist dystopia.

It would be more interesting to use the Mobile Infantry from Heinlein's novel. The M.I. would probably acquit themselves rather well.

Although if you gave an M.I. expeditionary force the same mission given to the Grand Army of the Republic on Geonosis... I suspect they would have dropped as close as possible to the arena, while delivering massed nuclear bombardment to the rest of the planet. Whether that would work depends on how good Star Wars shielding really is, a subject for independent speculation.

I am quite sure M.I. ground combat weapons could compete with Star Wars military technology; blasters are nasty but not that nasty.

As soon as they had successfully evacuated the Jedi from the arena they'd probably pull everyone off the planet and wreck it with a nova bomb.

And, you hit on the primary flaw of Verhoven's MI: Their tactics are shit.

I mean, running at the enemy in a disorganized mob only works if you're the Red Army, and you have more disciplined units waiting behind the rampaging mob of disposable cannon fodder.

I don't think Geonosis had a planetary shield or even any area shields.

Given that each of Heinlein's cap troopers had man-portable nuclear weapons, I'd say they'd be at least on an equal footing with the Separatist forces, and their mobility and combined-arms doctrine certainly would be on par.

Just as interesting would be to pit the Terran SICON Mobile Infantry from Roughnecks:The Starship Trooper Chronicles against the Separatists on Geonosis. Again, their tactics are far superior to Verhoven's MI, as is their combined-arms doctrine, and they're better equipped as well. Their Moritas would be good at taking on grunt Geonosians and battle droids, and their powersuits give them decent mobility, while the firepower from a squad's pair of marauder suits should be adequate against droidekas, spider tanks, hailfire droids, and the like.

[Simon_Jester]

And, you hit on the primary flaw of Verhoven's MI: Their tactics are shit.

I mean, running at the enemy in a disorganized mob only works if you're the Red Army, and you have more disciplined units waiting behind the rampaging mob of disposable cannon fodder.

While this is obviously a major flaw, I'm actually not sure it's a worse flaw than the lack of adequate support weapons, though bad tactics makes it nearly impossible to employ support weapons even if you have them.

I don't think Geonosis had a planetary shield or even any area shields.

Given that each of Heinlein's cap troopers had man-portable nuclear weapons, I'd say they'd be at least on an equal footing with the Separatist forces, and their mobility and combined-arms doctrine certainly would be on par.

Now now, mini-nukes were fireteam level heavy weapons. Carried by the section leaders, because you wouldn't give a buck private an atom bomb. But a lance corporal? Definitely.

Just as interesting would be to pit the Terran SICON Mobile Infantry from Roughnecks:The Starship Trooper Chronicles against the Separatists on Geonosis. Again, their tactics are far superior to Verhoven's MI, as is their combined-arms doctrine, and they're better equipped as well. Their Moritas would be good at taking on grunt Geonosians and battle droids, and their powersuits give them decent mobility, while the firepower from a squad's pair of marauder suits should be adequate against droidekas, spider tanks, hailfire droids, and the like.

I liked that show. That said, I'm really not sure their firepower is competitive with Star Wars, since it seems to be fairly normal machine-guns-and-bazookas fare, the sort of thing we might reasonably expect mid-21st century weapons to be capable of.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Now now, mini-nukes were fireteam level heavy weapons. Carried by the section leaders, because you wouldn't give a buck private an atom bomb. But a lance corporal? Definitely.

I could've sworn these were issued to each individual cap trooper. I'll have to re-read the novel. Another addition to the reading list.

I liked that show. That said, I'm really not sure their firepower is competitive with Star Wars, since it seems to be fairly normal machine-guns-and-bazookas fare, the sort of thing we might reasonably expect mid-21st century weapons to be capable of.

I did as well. Shame the creative team and the studio couldn't get their shit together, and give it a proper ending. It was far and away better than the three movies, which, even as satire, failed miserably in every respect that didn't involve keeping that damn song stuck in my head.

As to whether their weapons are good what's contemporary for the Rise of the Empire era, as I said, slug throwers and bazookas would do against grunt battle droids, which seemed easy enough to knock down, and basic Geonosian warriors. Everything else, especially clone/storm trooper armor, depends on whether or not a Sand Person's slugthrower can punch through SW body armor, and a more careful re-watch of the series, mainly the latter. For now, I'll have to concede the point.