One Solution to the #OscarsSoWhite Problem

[TheFeniX]

Whoopi Goldberg had quite a bit to say about that – she's won an Oscar, has a star on Hollywood's Walk of Fame, and finds it's very, very hard to get roles despite all that. Yesterday I caught a bit of her on TV and she emphasized that black actors don't want quota, they want equal opportunities and a level playing field.

Movies are just a hard sell on that because they keep throwing white dudes into lead roles and it keeps selling so damn well. Not that minority leads don't sell, but studios seem extremely risk adverse. Even more so than in the past considering how much international markets matter to Hollywood now.

Jackson is an outlier – and really, he's a good thing because 75 years ago NO black man would have been in his position. It's time to move from token black superstars to, outside of productions where race is a crucial plot point, to a situation where black actors like Jackson and Goldberg get as many lead role offers as their white counterparts. That's not going to happen overnight and can't happen by decree. One thing the general public can do is speak up, on social media, in what they purchase or pay to see. Money talks.

Haven't they spoken up though? For all the hang wringing on social media: people are still lining up to buy tickets. The Hollywood protagonist list is about as diverse as AAA video games casting.

Duncan was cast for The Green Mile over 17 years ago, for Daredevil!movie more than 13 years ago... there has been some progress since then. You have to keep the timeline in mind when discussing these things.

Fair enough, but Green Mile really was his breakout role. After that, more people would know him as Duncan than Big Black Guy. I would have been more surprised had that cast someone like Kevin Brown (30 Rock). Billable is billable. For another crazy comic book example: Michael Keaton as Batman. Or Hell, now: Ben Afleck is Batman. They'll literally put any white guy with a name at the front of a million/billion dollar franchise. Even Downey Jr. after some mega-huge breakdowns (though he did make Iron Man the cash-cow it is today). But a black guy? Not seeing any good examples for them going out on a limb for minorities.

Jackman and Marsden weren't big stars at the time. Wolverine was Jackman's break-out role, it was what gained him sufficient recognition to become an international star. Marsden... not quite so much, he's still a B-list actor. Patrick Stewart and Halle Berry were the big-name stars for that movie, and again, that was 16 years ago the movie was released, meaning the decisions about those things were made more than 17 years ago, in an era when studios were still uncertain there was money in these comic book-based ventures and there was still a notion that you needed big names stars to bring people in to the movies.

Sticking with the Marvel example: they haven't exactly changed much over the years. The Avengers cast isn't exactly filled with nobodies. Least billable would probably be Mark Ruffalo and that guy has a laundry list of pre-Avengers work. They might have taken a risk with Pre-Thor Chris Hemsworth (for Thor, not Avengers obviously), but holy shit look at that guy. I don't think he was born, more like he punched his way out of a marble statue.

I recently re-watched those movies (like, last week recent) and while they were break-through blockbusters for the time they don't compare well to the current crop of Marvel movies like Iron Man, Thor, Avengers, and Guardians of the Galaxy where the multi-lead ensembles are written/handled much better and casting choices less “Hollywood”. As I said, things have changed over time. You can really tell the difference between the X-movies, where Fox Studios has major control and the executives (mostly older white men) meddle and the MCU where Marvel calls more of the shots and certain choices are much less traditional Hollywood.

Guardians is pretty damned billable. Maybe Dave Bautista, but I get the feeling Diesel may have done something to get him a role. And even that: they channeled Iron Giant and paid Vin fucking Diesel to say "I am Groot."

I'm not pointing to MCU as a paragon of virtue, it's an example of change in the right direction. I'm hoping in 20 years the choices made there look like the choices made 20 years ago.

I think their TV stuff is on point, but I also think their Hollywood stuff is stuck with two notions:
1. Pay lip service to diversity by recasting minor roles that would only piss off hardcore comic fans (and those guys get mad at anything anyways).
2. Assume the average movie-goer may not be racist.... but is probably pretty racist so only cast "safe" minority actors.

Two generations ago the only roles for blacks and minorities were as extras, background, and very, very rarely as a sidekick to a white lead. Now, we do have minorities in, if not leads, at least significant roles other than sidekicks and the occasional lead. This is all part of the progression that needs to occur. If you don't have those secondary minority characters you won't have actors in the pipeline for leading roles. Now, we really do have minority actors capable of being leads that appel across demographics and it's time for them to be considered for roles and for the white-washing to stop.

Has Will Smith been allowed to kiss a white woman on screen yet? I remember how stupid (more so than the movie itself) that with all the chemistry between the leads at the end of I, Robot: they should have been making out at the end. They didn't, but Smith got to get all up in Rosario Dawson's personal space in MiB2.

Pretty sure seeing a black guy kiss a white women is still like seeing a Unicorn. As long as not wanting to offend moronic racists, when TV hasn't minded doing it for years, combined with the prevalence of adding romance sub-plots to every movie idea exists: lead minority roles for men (especially black) are going to remain much rarer than they should be.

Also, somehow white people don't like black men preaching at them according to Hollywood, yet Morgan Freeman has been doing that since I've been alive.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, its my hope that eventually we'll see more powerful people in Hollywood who aren't white men, but that kind of change might take a long time. I don't expect minorities and women (by the way, amid all the talk about racism at the Oscars, why wasn't their more talk about sexism?) to be satisfied with waiting though.

[TheFeniX]

Not saying sexism isn't a big problem, but women aren't technically a minority and get leads constantly in romance movies and romantic comedies. But more so than that, certain billable (read: smoking hot) actresses can also score leads in action movies. Mad Max being the most recent example. Angelina Jolee and Jovovich for just two who spent years getting leads like this. Beckinsale got her own series with Underworld. Some of the movies were awful, but that's not really the point: Hollywood was willing to take risks on name power alone for these women. There's Hunger Games, kids love that. Zoe Saldana got Columbiana. The lead of AVP was a black woman: Sanaa Lathan. The Thing reboot. Prometheus. Old school shout out to Quick and the Dead because watch that fucking movie.

That's just off the top of my head. They do have a lock on certain genres and, as sexist as it is, Hollywood's prevalence for shoe-horning in love-sub-plots means a lot more female actresses at least get exposure as supporting characters. Jamie Lee Curtis in True Lies. Sandra Bullock in Demolotion Man. These are great characters in their own right even though they are not leads.

For black men who can get a lead based on name power alone? I got Will Smith and Denzel Washington. Denzel is making a comeback but has been doing steady work for years. And..... Dwayne Johnson? But he's half-Samoan. Wesley Snipes might have kept going if the Blade movies didn't take a huge dump and he avoided getting busted for tax fraud.

Really, I would say only Hispanic actors have it rougher. I mean there's.... um, Antonio Banderas was big for a while. He does... Spy Kids movies now... that's something, right? Maybe I'm drunk, but Michelle Rodriguez and Zoe Saldana are the most billable Hispanic actors I can come up with.

[Broomstick]

Well, Danny Trejo, but he's a niche player. James Edward Olmos is a break-out Hispanic thanks to the revised Battlestar Galactica but it's more he's working regularly in the English media than getting a lot of lead parts (in Spanish media he's had a more extensive career, or so I'm told).

Martin(né Ramón Estévez) and Charlie Sheen have both been big-name Hollywood male stars, but note their "white" stage names - Emilo Estévez, Martin's son and Charlie's brother, has had an acting career under his birth name but never got the roles his father and brother did. Charlie did act in one movie under his birth name Carlos Estévez but it was an exception (he, along with a bunch of others, were helping out Trejo in his first starring role)

Ricardo Montalbon was the last leading-man Hispanic in Hollywood I can recall, but he's really from a prior generation. And he was constantly under pressure to Anglicize his name.

[The Romulan Republic]

Not saying sexism isn't a big problem,

Except that the rest of your post is basically full of trying to downplay it while demonstrating that you don't understand the issue.

but women aren't technically a minority

I didn't say they were. I said minorities and women.

and get leads constantly in romance movies and romantic comedies. But more so than that, certain billable (read: smoking hot) actresses can also score leads in action movies. Mad Max being the most recent example. Angelina Jolee and Jovovich for just two who spent years getting leads like this. Beckinsale got her own series with Underworld. Some of the movies were awful, but that's not really the point: Hollywood was willing to take risks on name power alone for these women. There's Hunger Games, kids love that. Zoe Saldana got Columbiana. The lead of AVP was a black woman: Sanaa Lathan. The Thing reboot. Prometheus. Old school shout out to Quick and the Dead because watch that fucking movie.

No doubt it is possible for women to get major roles. That's not the issue.

The issue, as you noted yourself, is that the roles tend to be of certain types and in certain genres which fit with gender cliches, and tend to go disproportionately to young, conventionally attractive women (in other words, a woman is largely only worth something to Hollywood as an actress if she's sexy).

Granted, that kind of thing is a problem for everyone in the film industry, to a greater or lesser extent.

That's just off the top of my head. They do have a lock on certain genres and, as sexist as it is, Hollywood's prevalence for shoe-horning in love-sub-plots means a lot more female actresses at least get exposure as supporting characters. Jamie Lee Curtis in True Lies. Sandra Bullock in Demolotion Man. These are great characters in their own right even though they are not leads.

True.

However, it also basically says "You can get a role as a woman, as long as you're fitting the "right" social roles and/or riding a man's coattails by being his love interest."

That is... problematic.

For black men who can get a lead based on name power alone? I got Will Smith and Denzel Washington. Denzel is making a comeback but has been doing steady work for years. And..... Dwayne Johnson? But he's half-Samoan. Wesley Snipes might have kept going if the Blade movies didn't take a huge dump and he avoided getting busted for tax fraud.

I see your point, though you could probably come up with quite a few other examples of successful black actors.

Really, I would say only Hispanic actors have it rougher. I mean there's.... um, Antonio Banderas was big for a while. He does... Spy Kids movies now... that's something, right? Maybe I'm drunk, but Michelle Rodriguez and Zoe Saldana are the most billable Hispanic actors I can come up with.

Well, I'd say Zoe Saldana (who according to IMDB has a mix of Dominican, Puerto Rican, Hatian, and Lebanese heritage) is a borderline A list star these days I'd say, with roles in a number of major franchises including the female lead in Avatar and arguably the third biggest recurring role in the Star Trek film franchise at present (McCoy kind of got underused in the recent films, I think).

But yeah, as rough as black people sometimes have it in film, it seems like every other racial minority is less represented, and you can't even put that down to being a smaller demographic in the case of hispanics, because they're now a bigger percentage of the US population than black people (though admittedly that is a recent thing).

[TheFeniX]

Except that the rest of your post is basically full of trying to downplay it while demonstrating that you don't understand the issue.

While sexism shafts women at the oscars, at the least they can get front billing on a level black men can't and that blatant Hollywoof sexism can sometimes play in their favor.

I didn't say they were. I said minorities and women.

Yea, that's on me. I was actually going to segway into how it's actually worse in some areas considering how many more roles women get than minority actors, yet they get shafted as much. Making it even worse. But I also cannot stand the Oscars. It's all garbage. I'd rather talk about representation in Hollywood proper.

The issue, as you noted yourself, is that the roles tend to be of certain types and in certain genres which fit with gender cliches, and tend to go disproportionately to young, conventionally attractive women (in other words, a woman is largely only worth something to Hollywood as an actress if she's sexy).

My point was that: even in genres (action movies) where you would expect a black man to be a better fit than a woman: you end up with a list of billable women way above that of black men. Further, they get much more exposure as supporting characters, so they have even better access to future work.

However, it also basically says "You can get a role as a woman, as long as you're fitting the "right" social roles and/or riding a man's coattails by being his love interest."

Yes, and as shitty as that is: it gives women better access to build a name for themselves to get lead roles. Look at Sandra Bullock's credits after Demolition Man.

I see your point, though you could probably come up with quite a few other examples of successful black actors.

Definitely, especially on TV where black men do much better not only in representation, but also not being cast because "we need someone urban."

Well, I'd say Zoe Saldana (who according to IMDB has a mix of Dominican, Puerto Rican, Hatian, and Lebanese heritage) is a borderline A list star these days I'd say, with roles in a number of major franchises including the female lead in Avatar and arguably the third biggest recurring role in the Star Trek film franchise at present (McCoy kind of got underused in the recent films, I think).

She got her own lead in an action movie. Avatar was pretty good for her career. Even though, while extremely proactive and well written, she was basically just a love-interest.

But yeah, as rough as black people sometimes have it in film, it seems like every other racial minority is less represented, and you can't even put that down to being a smaller demographic in the case of hispanics, because they're now a bigger percentage of the US population than black people (though admittedly that is a recent thing).

I was going to mention this, but I decided against it as I was already going into "who has it rougher" territory.

[Civil War Man]

Really, I would say only Hispanic actors have it rougher. I mean there's.... um, Antonio Banderas was big for a while. He does... Spy Kids movies now... that's something, right? Maybe I'm drunk, but Michelle Rodriguez and Zoe Saldana are the most billable Hispanic actors I can come up with.

If we were really having a contest over which groups have a harder time getting good roles in Hollywood movies, I'd say the people who have it worst are probably Asian men and Middle Easterners and Native Americans in general.

While sexism shafts women at the oscars, at the least they can get front billing on a level black men can't and that blatant Hollywoof sexism can sometimes play in their favor.

I think the Oscars are sort of a double-edged sword for women. Having distinctly separate acting categories certain helps raise the profiles of female actors, but it can also inhibit their prospects by reinforcing the mindset that there are distinctly male and female roles. I think having separate categories for minorities, like what Chris Rock joked about in the opening monologue, might have the same effect. It would raise the profile of individual actors, but wouldn't do much to help the group as a whole because it reinforces the biases that makes it hard for minority actors to reliably get good roles.

[Elheru Aran]

Samuel L. Jackson and Morgan Freeman are another couple of top-billing black actors.

It is notable enough though that both have been in Hollywood a quite long time-- thirty years or so, maybe-- and it's only within the past couple decades or so that they've become well enough known that they can command that kind of prestige.

[General Zod]

Samuel L. Jackson and Morgan Freeman are another couple of top-billing black actors.

It is notable enough though that both have been in Hollywood a quite long time-- thirty years or so, maybe-- and it's only within the past couple decades or so that they've become well enough known that they can command that kind of prestige.

When was the last time either of them was cast as the lead role in a major picture, as opposed to a top billed supporting actor?

[Civil War Man]

Samuel L. Jackson and Morgan Freeman are another couple of top-billing black actors.

It is notable enough though that both have been in Hollywood a quite long time-- thirty years or so, maybe-- and it's only within the past couple decades or so that they've become well enough known that they can command that kind of prestige.

When was the last time either of them was cast as the lead role in a major picture, as opposed to a top billed supporting actor?

Depends on how you define lead role and major picture, I guess. Jackson has The Hateful Eight from this past year, but before that...Snakes on a Plane, maybe?

As for Freeman, probably Invictus.

But yeah, your point still stands, since even for really big name actors like them, you usually have to go back several years before you find one where they played a lead character.

[TheFeniX]

Jackson and Freeman are, sadly, victims of the times and their own age now.

It's been like 20 years and I can still only come up with "Will Smith" if you were to ask me to name a black actor who can be cast in pretty much any role when race isn't a requirement. Like, I could see Smith going up against Tom Cruise for any given role. He's that billable.

Who else has that pull? Denzel to an extent. A much much much much smaller extent. And.... The Rock? He's half-Samoan and was big even before his breaking into movies, but he's also built like a brick shit-house so it's hard to shoe-horn him into anything. Smith really does have that "everyman" quality and studios and audiences agree.

When Smith retires who is going to be left? Has their been any new blood even cracking into Hollywood on that level? 20 years and I got nothing. Please prove me wrong on this. Because to me, more than the popularity contest of the Oscars, that's a much bigger problem with minorities trying to make it in Hollywood. Though I admit: they could be closely related, but I assume studios care more about dollar signs than awards.

[LastShadow]

Is it really an oscars problem or is it a hollywood problem? More African american actors need to be cast for stuff, but they need to be cast into new roles, instead of the constant need to gender or race change pre-existing roles for PC police reasons.

Now i am totally not against competitive roles for other races, and genders. But give them their own new roles, make a new superhero, dont just say well captain america is black now lets see how that goes. There is actually a black spiderman, miles something or other(i havent read much on him), make a movie about him instead of re-re-rebooting the same spiderman story over and over again.

In the end i olny really appreciate roles the way they were meant to be played, i hate when they cast as stereotypes, like when they make a character who happens to be black, semi stereotypical. Itts like most of the time they cast a black person they have to accentuate the fact that they are black, instead of just playing out the role as it was meant to be.

I have serious concerns over the state of the entertainment industries. And this is coming from a primarily science fiction background where, strong female leads and strong male leads are there and prominent, along with decently strong secondary characters for them too.

They need new actors and new roles for those actors, instead of rehashing the same stuff and just racebending or genderbending the roles.

[Grumman]

More African american actors need to be cast for stuff, but they need to be cast into new roles, instead of the constant need to gender or race change pre-existing roles for PC police reasons.
...

I agree with everything you just said. If the desire to get more African-American roles inspires people to make new and awesome characters, great! Give us a character like Captain Hiller from Independence Day and I don't care that he's not the same race as me.

[LastShadow]

More African american actors need to be cast for stuff, but they need to be cast into new roles, instead of the constant need to gender or race change pre-existing roles for PC police reasons.
...

I agree with everything you just said. If the desire to get more African-American roles inspires people to make new and awesome characters, great! Give us a character like Captain Hiller from Independence Day and I don't care that he's not the same race as me.

Well its like people getting bent out of shape that a white guy was cast for iron fist. Which is a white guy, that was mostly raised in a chinese inspired area. The PC patrol wants him to be asian and honestly that would be awful, and stereotypical. Asian guy knows mystical kung fu, so game changing.... White guy basically sidekick to black guy, now thats different. Since Iron fist is basically Luke cage's sidecick.

New roles, not reverse whitewashing, and i say it that way because hollywood is often accused (and sometimes rightly so) of making characters of color white, but altering white characters, that are white in every media they have been involved in, to a different race, just to not be called racist is ludicrous.

There are actually a BUNCH of racial characters, White tiger (black lady), Luke cage (black guy), then you have nova of the nova corps that is hispanic, they need to bring more of these characters to light.

Not to mention, some characters that are white but from a specific subdivision of white (Irish, Scottish, Russian, Other) need to be more thoroughly represented also, people seem to think all whites look alike i guess, but hey thats not racist or anything...

[The Romulan Republic]

Is it really an oscars problem or is it a hollywood problem?

Its both, obviously.

More African american actors need to be cast for stuff, but they need to be cast into new roles, instead of the constant need to gender or race change pre-existing roles for PC police reasons.

I'm open to both, and so no need for the false dichotomy "instead of".

I also find the implication that any race or gender changes are only due to "PC police reasons." offensive. It discounts the possibility that such a change might possibly be made because they have a particular actor in mind, or because it allows for a different interpretation of the characters/story.

And even if they are doing it purely to give more roles to minorities and women, their are much worse reasons for doing something.

Also, a new character will not have the same prominence as an established legend.

Personally, my rule is that casting should be as open and flexible as possible unless their is a) a continuity issue (i.e. I would object to Luke being black in the next Star Wars film because it would contradict canon, but not Luke being black in a hypothetical remake) or b) the character's race and/or gender is integral to the character (i.e., it wouldn't make sense to make Buffy of Buffy the Vampire Slayer a man, because themes of female empowerment are integral to the series/character).

Now i am totally not against competitive roles for other races, and genders. But give them their own new roles, make a new superhero, dont just say well captain america is black now lets see how that goes. There is actually a black spiderman, miles something or other(i havent read much on him), make a movie about him instead of re-re-rebooting the same spiderman story over and over again.

See above.

That said, I wouldn't mind a non-white Spiderman movie.

Hell, why not go that route with Marvel movies Spiderman (unless he's supposed to be the same as the current movie Spiderman)? I mean, its a new continuity, and its not like Marvel has an overabundance of major non-white male characters, at least in the films (their TV/Netflix lineup is better, with Agent Carter, Jessica Jones, Agents of SHIELD, etc.).

In the end i olny really appreciate roles the way they were meant to be played, i hate when they cast as stereotypes, like when they make a character who happens to be black, semi stereotypical. Itts like most of the time they cast a black person they have to accentuate the fact that they are black, instead of just playing out the role as it was meant to be.

That's not an argument against changing a non-black character to black. Its an argument against changing a non-black character to a badly-written black character.

I have serious concerns over the state of the entertainment industries. And this is coming from a primarily science fiction background where, strong female leads and strong male leads are there and prominent, along with decently strong secondary characters for them too.

They need new actors and new roles for those actors, instead of rehashing the same stuff and just racebending or genderbending the roles.

See above.

[Civil War Man]

Is it really an oscars problem or is it a hollywood problem? More African american actors need to be cast for stuff, but they need to be cast into new roles, instead of the constant need to gender or race change pre-existing roles for PC police reasons.

As TRR said, it's both. One of the issues is that when a casting call doesn't specifically specify race or sex, then the majority of the time only white men are considered for the role. And we see many more instances of non-white roles either having a white actor cast or having the character rewritten as white than the reverse, even when you discount the stuff made years ago when blackface or yellowface wasn't considered a big deal.

Now i am totally not against competitive roles for other races, and genders. But give them their own new roles, make a new superhero, dont just say well captain america is black now lets see how that goes. There is actually a black spiderman, miles something or other(i havent read much on him), make a movie about him instead of re-re-rebooting the same spiderman story over and over again.

Speaking of minority superheroes, I think one of the biggest mistakes of the Green Lantern movie (besides, you know, pretty much everything) was that they decided to go with Hal Jordan over John Stewart. Hal was the original human Lantern, but John was way more popular. Hell, I know a few people who were turned off of the movie because they grew up with the 90's Justice League cartoons, so seeing a white Green Lantern just felt off for them.

And there really wasn't any reason to have a white Green Lantern besides either an overly strict adherence to the comics canon (since Hal did come before John), or a belief that a black superhero wasn't marketable enough to headline their own movie. Even now Marvel and DC are pretty much only just starting to experiment with having non-white and non-male superheroes as the leads, and even then it will still be months to years before we start seeing those movies actually coming out in theaters.

They need new actors and new roles for those actors, instead of rehashing the same stuff and just racebending or genderbending the roles.

I agree that they need to tone down the racebending and genderbending, but as I mentioned before (and as seen in the John Oliver video posted earlier), it's more common for that to go in the direction of rewriting non-white roles so white actors can be cast.

Though changing the race or sex of a role is not always a bad thing. For example, Red was white in The Shawshank Redemption short story, but casting Morgan Freeman in the movie if anything made it better because a) Red's race wasn't important to the story, and b) people would pay money to listen to Morgan Freeman read the phone book.

[Elheru Aran]

Part of the problem is that media is starting to divide along minority lines to some degree. Take a look at the recent growth of African-American-centric cinema, for example; there's a growing number of movies every year that are majority African-American, generally starring actors that range across the visibility spectrum from Martin Lawrence to Kevin Hart to Tyler Perry. I can see a similar movement happening with Hispanic cinema as well, if a pretty solid chunk of Netflix movies are any indication.

This was always there to some degree-- BET started in the 90s, didn't it-- but if that continues to be a strong trend, we may well see a sort of informal self-segregation happening in the entertainment industry before too long. Partially this is due to how new media can be targeted via on-demand services and the Internet, partly it's because it's a lot easier to make a movie now (quality and profile are another matter) thanks to technology. Netflix can make TV shows all on its own, and it's a video streaming service, not a Hollywood studio. Granted they probably hire a professional film studio to actually make the show and they just front money, but that's how it could be done; I would be very surprised if major ethnic providers like Univision aren't envisioning similar moves.

[TheFeniX]

Personally, my rule is that casting should be as open and flexible as possible unless their is a) a continuity issue (i.e. I would object to Luke being black in the next Star Wars film because it would contradict canon, but not Luke being black in a hypothetical remake) or b) the character's race and/or gender is integral to the character (i.e., it wouldn't make sense to make Buffy of Buffy the Vampire Slayer a man, because themes of female empowerment are integral to the series/character).

Oddly, I would have the least issue with that specifically because race does not matter (aside from genetics, so Luke's father and/or mother would have to be black) in the Star Wars universe. At least the race of humans. You don't add any implications to the character by changing his race.

To me, it's about on the level as painting Aayla Secura red in a remake: only nerds who hate everything would bitch. Either way, Luke should be a lot more tan than he is in the Star Wars movies.

Hell, why not go that route with Marvel movies Spiderman (unless he's supposed to be the same as the current movie Spiderman)? I mean, its a new continuity, and its not like Marvel has an overabundance of major non-white male characters, at least in the films (their TV/Netflix lineup is better, with Agent Carter, Jessica Jones, Agents of SHIELD, etc.).

I would love to see a Spider-man movie with a black lead with nothing but a line or scene explaining one (or both) of Parker's parents were black. He still gets bullied for being a nerdy runt by Flash. He still gets to make out with Dunst. He still deals with great power yadda yadda without his race playing into it. As far as the movie universe is concerned, being black or white or whatever does not matter.

I imagine multiple nose-bleeds and aneurysms by the writing and executive staff not being able to lean on stereotypes for a black character. It's been done on varying levels: Blade being black factored in a big zero in the movie. They needed someone who knew some martial arts: they got Snipes. His moral dilemma (anything but) was Vampires vs Humans, not his race being why they'd never accept him. Will Smith lives here, with the exception of certain movies where they kind of shoe-horn it in. Although, I think that's more on Smith because he makes lambasting white people pretty funny.

This of course does run into the noted problem: there's few billable "everyman" minority leads out there. So, we want a Green Lantern movie and Ryan Reynolds is on tap. People like him. Problem solved. When race doesn't matter, there's no reason aside from PR to cast a black actor. And, beating a dead horse here, you've basically only got Will Smith when it becomes an advantage to cast a black man in a role because he plays extremely well among all races and both genders (he's a good looking man, what can I say?).

So, do we push this split where race does matter? It would get minorities more work, thus increasing exposure. But is that good for Hollywood getting over race? I have no idea.

[Civil War Man]

This of course does run into the noted problem: there's few billable "everyman" minority leads out there. So, we want a Green Lantern movie and Ryan Reynolds is on tap. People like him. Problem solved. When race doesn't matter, there's no reason aside from PR to cast a black actor. And, beating a dead horse here, you've basically only got Will Smith when it becomes an advantage to cast a black man in a role because he plays extremely well among all races and both genders (he's a good looking man, what can I say?).

Speaking of Will Smith as the black actor who can consistently get otherwise white roles, even that is not always the case. It's pretty well-documented that movies very rarely have romantic plots between a black man and a white woman unless that is specifically what the movie is about (like Jungle Fever or Guess Who's Coming to Dinner). When it comes to portrayals of interracial relationships, you'll occasionally see just about every other combination you can conceive of, but almost never black man/white woman.

For a non-Will Smith example, there's the movie for The Pelican Brief. The male lead in the book is white, but they cast Denzel Washington in the movie (Denzel pretty much was the go-to "black guy who can be cast in stereotypically white roles" before Independence Day allowed Will Smith to take the title), and that is the only movie I can think of where Hollywood removed a romantic subplot that was in the source material.

[TheFeniX]

I think Pootie-tang had some white farmer's daughter making out with the lead. There's that.... I mean, that movie is a bastion of equality, right? For Smith I got... Hancock? Him and Theron briefly kiss in that from what I recall when I was awake during it. There's many implied relationships, but kissing or romance scenes, when Hollywood looks for any excuse to throws those at us? Like Unicorns.

That said, for Smith or Washington: they are at least willing to rewrite the script to accommodate racism, so there is that. I, Robot is a case where it's obvious there's chemistry among the characters and actors. Same with Denzel in Virtuosity. I'm sure those sub-plots just didn't make it out of the executive meetings. Jackson got his chance with Davis in Long Kiss Goodnight and One Eight Seven, but unless my memory is bad: we just got a bunch of hint-hint. Also, in the case of 187: dog murdering. That tends to kill the mood.

I'm doing some googling during lunch and all I got is supposedly Julia Stiles damaged her career making out with a black guy? Ok, not a huge fan of the movies she does, but I swear I remember her kissing Mekhi Phifer in some movie. I would have paid attention because Greg Pratt in ER: I like that guy. Googling both actors, I'm coming up with the remake of Othello, "O". Is that right? Either way, not calling it a win.

Television seems to be the only place that shit plays. You wouldn't think it's 2016. The biggest ray of hope I've got is Disney (which is crazy considering) casting relatively unknown female and black leads in a 3.5 billion dollar IP. Meanwhile, even a golden-boy TV Series like ER kicks Hollywood in the nuts. Eriq La Salle totally got to get all up in Alex Kingston's personal space for almost an entire season. And this was in the fucking 90s.

Fuck you Hollywood.

[Broomstick]

US TV started with inter-racial kissing with Captain Kirk lip wrestling with Lt. Uhura back in the 1960's, they started sooner than Hollywood did. That does make a difference.

[Gandalf]

US TV started with inter-racial kissing with Captain Kirk lip wrestling with Lt. Uhura back in the 1960's, they started sooner than Hollywood did. That does make a difference.

It's actually more prevalent than you would think. A good example of this is the film The Crimson Kimono (1959), which predates Plato's Stepchildren by nearly a decade. James Shigeta (later known as Mr Takagi from Die Hard) kissed Victoria Shaw, and it even made the poster. There's earlier examples, but it's hard to find clips online.

Also, US TV featured interracial kisses in both I, Spy and Wild Wild West, before Trek's alien enforced intimacy.

[TheFeniX]

US TV started with inter-racial kissing with Captain Kirk lip wrestling with Lt. Uhura back in the 1960's, they started sooner than Hollywood did. That does make a difference.

That's a fair point and so is Gandalf's. But it's 2016 and I don't feel Hollywood has made any progress and in fact seems to be regressing in all areas where it comes to minorities. I know it's kind of dumb to keep harping on making out in movies, but it's so damn apparent due to all the show-horned in love plots. Tom Cruise can bag any and all races he wants, even getting in on Japanese action. But there's always either a minority woman on tap for Smith or they just down-play the romance into "hint-hint" when there's a white woman around.

Arnold didn't have this issue in his hey-day, but that's not exactly the same thing. I just see TV these days and it's like "black guy dates white woman, whoop-di-do" while anything on the silver screen is like "whoa now, no white woman would sign on for that." There's obviously racial and sexual issues on TV, but at least they've progressed since I've been able to work a remote. Or at the least aren't ignoring the issues entirely.

Only thing I can come up with, besides old school racism, is China factoring into the bottom line with how important foreign markets are these days. How much prejudice do they have against African-Americans or is Hollywood just looking at how well white-dominated action movies (like Transformers) do over there and is just saying "why fuck with a good thing?"

[Elheru Aran]

They did seem to be improving on the minority-dating-white thing in the 80s and 90s. Not that I was watching movies much back then, but like... for example we had Kevin Costner and Whitney Houston in 'The Bodyguard'. Which was 1992.

Here's a somewhat depressing list (at least when you get into the 00's)... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_i ... ance_films

Probably not thorough, but still.

[General Zod]

Well . . . that's different because it's a white man with a black woman. The way the stereotypes work is that a black woman marrying a white man was seen as "moving up", while a white woman marrying a black man was seen as "moving down".