Worldbuilding and form vs function,

[Adam Reynolds]

I just watched the movie Royal Space Force, and while it was interesting in terms of the way it portrayed technology that both felt extremely familiar and extremely alien at the same time, it led me to a problem. How could technology perform the same function without appearing the same as it does in reality?

This is also an issue throughout science fiction. The Mon Calamari have warships that visually appear very distinct from the Empire with an organic versus a mechanical appearance. Likewise, we see that multipolar settings have this trait even further. The Federation, Romulans and Klingons all have extremely distinct designs, as do the asari, turians, and geth.

In reality, technology has the appearance it does because of practical concerns. If one looks at all of the worlds modern warships or combat aircraft, one sees that they all look approximately the same. The Chinese Type 52C and an Arleigh Burke Class look somewhat similar, as do the PAK-FA and F-22. An absolute amateur could easily mistake one for the other, which would be impossible with most science fiction designs. Which is obviously why that is the case, it is so that the audience easily knows which side are the good guys.

The problem is that there really is only a handful of ways to do things like designing warships, different philosophies only go so far. In reality, form follows function, while in fiction it is almost always the other way around.

[Batman]

Form follows function when 'everybody has the same tech base'. In SciFi they often do not. Compare ancient greek to sailing age to steam age to WW1 to WW2 to 1960s to modern age warships. Compare a Sopwith Camel with a Su-35. And that's one measly real world century (for the planes, not the ships). Imagine stuff like one side having wonder materials, artificial gravity, super stealth tech (hello, B5), massively superior FTL and sensors...

And in Trek the Romulans, the Feds and the Klingons all follow a reasonably similar design scheme-have a pair of Warp nacelles away from the hull (despite the D'deridex giant hole in the middle).

[biostem]

Another factor may have to do with, (at least in a space setting), material and construction resources. For instance, if the Klingon Empire has fewer space-docks to build ships, and thus relies a lot on ground-based construction, then that could explain why they have many more smaller ships that can make landfall. Similarly, AFAIK, the Klingons still use naturally mined dilithium, so perhaps there are different design constraints or freedoms that they suffer/benefit from as a result.

Along the same lines, the Romulans use micro-singularities as a power source, so I'm sure those reactors and related systems require some different designs.

[Simon_Jester]

Alternatively, in other settings like Mass Effect it may actually be the case that a long-settled power living in a relatively peaceful environment (e.g. the Asari) has grown 'baroque' in that they are more prepared to intentionally compromise the functionality of their weapons and starships and buildings, in exchange for aesthetic goals.

Art actually plays a rather important role in civilization, it's not just a random epiphenomenal thing. Long-lasting, stable cultures might be precisely those which are prepared to sacrifice a bit of performance to preserve their aesthetic and cultural values.

[biostem]

In the case of the Calamari, wasn't it mentioned, (probably in some EU source), that the ships seen in RotJ were actually converted passenger liners?

I'd love to see, (even if just as a mini-series), a show about a captain and crew who were stationed aboard one of the various still-in-use Excelsiors that we've seen in TNG era; Sort of a "used future" vibe vs the "new and shiny" that we saw in TNG.

[Batman]

Unless it pops up again the MCs being converted civilian liners pops up again is a goner and anyway in a setting where most of the ship's durability is likely to be up to magitech anyway (on all sides) what difference does it make?

[Zwinmar]

There is also the military concern: In most scifi settings they show wide open spaces everywhere rather than compartmentalization. When a ship has covered walls for aesthetic purposes rather than the bare-bones skeleton it suggests that they are utilizing form rather than function (star trek), along with the automatic side opening doors when a hatch that can be dogged shut would be just as effective if not more so, and probably safer.

A wide passageway on a ship indicates one thing: cargo goes through here, the rest are more restrictive to not only save space but also limit mobility of any gear laden assaulter. Getting through those passageways in full gear with a pack is a real chore, let me tell ya.

[Elheru Aran]

There is also the military concern: In most scifi settings they show wide open spaces everywhere rather than compartmentalization. When a ship has covered walls for aesthetic purposes rather than the bare-bones skeleton it suggests that they are utilizing form rather than function (star trek), along with the automatic side opening doors when a hatch that can be dogged shut would be just as effective if not more so, and probably safer.

A wide passageway on a ship indicates one thing: cargo goes through here, the rest are more restrictive to not only save space but also limit mobility of any gear laden assaulter. Getting through those passageways in full gear with a pack is a real chore, let me tell ya.

In this respect the Earth ships from Stargate were not badly designed, I thought. They reflected real-world naval craft fairly well.

[Sky Captain]

How technology looks is governed by physics. Since physics are the same anywhere in our Universe I think if two civilizations are at similar technological development level their designs would look quite similar if they are made to not sacrifice performance over appearance. There just aren't many ways how to build effective aircraft, space launch rocket, space station or deep space ship.

If alien interstellar expedition arrives in our Solar system in some sort of fusion or antimatter propelled generation ship I think humans from telescope observations could fairly easily figure out what functions major parts of the ship perform since it is based on physics we know.

Difference would start if aliens arrived using technology based on physics we have not yet discovered. Some kind of gravitic propulsion, space time bending or something we haven't even imagined may require designs that make no sense from our point of view. It would be similar like if ancient Greeks encounter modern technology.

[Lord Revan]

well how technology looks is governed by physics and what ever materials you have avaible, imagine a planet that's poor alunium deposites (or just no easily acessble ones) but naturally formed plastics (or similar materials).

I mean the planes here on Sol III (aka Terra aka Earth) are limited in design by what materials are avaible, some plane shapes impossible not because you can't build planes that shape but because of the limitations of the materials avaible to us.

[Batman]

Or the limitations on the affordability of the materials available to us. It's not like we don't have Titanium. It's just fucking expensive.

[biostem]

Or the limitations on the affordability of the materials available to us. It's not like we don't have Titanium. It's just fucking expensive.

This makes me wonder - since, even with replicators, we see that *some* materials still need to be hauled around in Star Trek, how much of their design decisions are due to the scarcity of materials. I don't think we've ever actually seen the entire construction process, from raw materials to ship components, depicted in Star Wars or Star Trek, for that matter...

[madd0ct0r]

Or the limitations on the affordability of the materials available to us. It's not like we don't have Titanium. It's just fucking expensive.

This makes me wonder - since, even with replicators, we see that *some* materials still need to be hauled around in Star Trek, how much of their design decisions are due to the scarcity of materials. I don't think we've ever actually seen the entire construction process, from raw materials to ship components, depicted in Star Wars or Star Trek, for that matter...

Could be huge. In real life the cheapest way to build medium-tall buildings cycles between reinforced concrete and steel composite quite often as the cost of steel vs labour fluctuates.

[Patroklos]

As has been mentioned I think some are exaggerating the differences in for example ST. If I give you a Russian vs US destroyer there are a lot differences, very few similarities. The thing to note her is that the similarities are general and in broad strokes. Has a hull with a pointy and blunt end: CHECK. Has a mast with radars: CHECK. Has some sort of weapons based on missiles/guns: CHECK. If you look at any of those things up close there are very big differences. Similarly in ST all ships have warp naccels. They all have an top bottom orientation. They all have some mix of energy/torpedo weapons. They all have a sensors/tractor beams/transports. On and on.

I would also point out that real world warships are built for a two dimensional space. This is a pretty hard stop on different they can be because everything has to be built from the bottom up. A space warship can have sensor masts, weapons mounts and other gadgets arrayed all around the thing giving more space for difference.

[Purple]

Another thing to consider is that whilst form follows function not all of the factions are going to have the same functions. Take Star Trek as a basic example. The Feds need universal multi purpose ships that can do a lot of things. Thus you get the huge galaxy class. The Klingons meanwhile need fast light no nonsense single purpose warships. Thus the BoP. When the federation does end up needing one such craft it ends up with the Defiant which is very much like a BoP with the pulsed weaponry, small size etc. For a real world example look at aircraft carriers. Observe the American huge super carriers, the more tame smaller European ones and than the Soviet aviation cruisers.

In a worldbuilding context the thing we can learn from this is that instead of designing objects to be different for the sake of difference we should design them to reflect the nature of those using them. How something looks can and should if designed properly tell you quite a lot about those using it.

[biostem]

I would also imagine that the designs are restricted to logisitcal concerns as well; Federation vessels rely heavily on replicators for food storage/distribution, so you don't need actual water or food tanks, refrigeration, etc. Klingons tend to keep raw/live food, so they'd need containment and support for that stuff. Federation ships have more comfortable crew quarters, and so you'll also need ways of cleaning the bedding, while Klingons sleep on metal bunks, and I doubt they're laundering their uniforms that frequently. Similarly, I don't think Romulans keep civilian clothing on board their vessels, while we know Federation crew does, (at least, I don't recall that ever being portrayed).

[Ziggy Stardust]

For real-world examples, what about something like the AK-47 vs the M-16? They look radically different to the point of being not only mutually unmistakable but also intrinsically associated with the power that most widely used them.

I'd also argue that WW2-era Japanese versus most Western battleships were visually distinct enough that even amateurs would notice that there is a distinctly different design philosophy, even if they couldn't a priori identify which nations they belong to.

[Elheru Aran]

I would also imagine that the designs are restricted to logisitcal concerns as well; Federation vessels rely heavily on replicators for food storage/distribution, so you don't need actual water or food tanks, refrigeration, etc. Klingons tend to keep raw/live food, so they'd need containment and support for that stuff. Federation ships have more comfortable crew quarters, and so you'll also need ways of cleaning the bedding, while Klingons sleep on metal bunks, and I doubt they're laundering their uniforms that frequently. Similarly, I don't think Romulans keep civilian clothing on board their vessels, while we know Federation crew does, (at least, I don't recall that ever being portrayed).

You may not need water/food tanks but you do need some storage for replicator raw material. Granted, depending on how replicators work, that may not require as much space as one might think. There *would* be water tanks though, at the very minimum to catch condensation from respiration, unless they compensate for that via careful atmosphere processing.

As for bedding; it's possible that they're simply rendered back into replicator raw material and then re-replicated into clean sheets. Clothing in general tends to be replicated as necessary; see holodeck episodes. You think they've got massive closets holding all those different costumes?

I imagine the Romulans don't much bother with civilian clothing on their naval vessels, they would just wear uniforms, which also seems pretty standard for the Federation-- the only time we see Starfleet personnel walking around in mufti in TOS and TNG, they tend to be either off duty or in an emergency situation. Voyager and DS9 had a little more freedom due to their different situations.

To give a couple of low-tech examples: Bedding could be dispensed with for the most part by using inflatable mattresses covered by some kind of tough paper sheet that comes folded up tightly, and when dirty, is simply disposed of, perhaps by composting, and washable blankets (the water being used in washing gets recycled, of course). Clothing could be kept to a few uniforms and sets of fatigues or off-duty garments; when 'on the field' dress uniforms are dispensed with and left back home. These, like the blankets, are washed as necessary and the water recycled.

A look at how different militaries handle their affairs might be instructive. Americans like their comforts-- trailers, porta-potties, running water and all that. In Third World countries, they're lucky to get uniforms and guns, never mind the rest.

[biostem]

That makes me wonder - I would hope that the Federation would keep some store of emergency water/food/supplies, in the event that their are stuck somewhere distant, and they lose their replicators. BTW, have we ever seen an instance where they lost the main ship's systems, but ended up using a shuttle's as a backup? I know that in at least one instance we saw them access a replicator in a shuttle...

[Khaat]

In some of the gaming material (notably the deck plans for the Enterprise and Reliant), there are water tanks and "materials storage" rooms (not bulk storage, though they also have those, but like actual storerooms with shelves, refrigerators, and such.)
The Klingon D7 deck plans have much the same (though at that point, it was the same design folks filling-in the iconic shapes, not designing them from go.)

The Enterperise-D deck plans included entire sections on decks in the saucer with unfinished quarters sections "for customization during diplomatic missions" (IIRC). They could have filled every available space with their rubber-stamp template junior- or senior-officer quarters, but actually went out of their way to make up a reason not to. I seem to remember they also had store rooms and water storage tanks.

It would be foolish to create over-dependence on replicators for the basics (food & water), but if the artificial gravity never went out, maybe they just assumed the replicators wouldn't, either.

[Lord Revan]

there's mentions of "emergency rations" in DS9 so there appears to be food (or at least SF equilevant of MRIs) that's not replicated, there's probably stores for water in case of emergencies as well at least it seems logical even if that's not outright stated.

[Zwinmar]

I know that on ship every available space was filled with stores, haven't seen that in security

[biostem]

It makes me wonder why, in the case of Voyager, they didn't take the opportunity, when they had any sort of energy surplus, to replicate and stockpile food/water/other supplies, for when they ran into shortages later...

[Lord Revan]

It makes me wonder why, in the case of Voyager, they didn't take the opportunity, when they had any sort of energy surplus, to replicate and stockpile food/water/other supplies, for when they ran into shortages later...

Out of verse it would imply that makers of the series had plans to have Voyager be something else then "TNG with a new coat of paint" which we know isn't true, in-universe I have no idea why that was done.

[Batman]

There's always been complaints about replicated stuff not quite being like the real thing and VOY had (and used) plenty of opportunities to take on fresh food (granted, Neelix tended to ruin it, but that has nothing to do with them going for fresh food over replicated rations). Besides, replicating water makes no sense. Not only won't the stuff compress worth a damn so storing it in bulk is going to be volume-intensive, but water is to be had everywhere. Nevermind that the galaxy seems to be lousy with M-class planets, just nab the occasional comet on the way.