European refugee crisis thread

[Welf]

The more specific point of gang rape going to become common in the west is pretty overblown.

Well, no more common than it already is... it's hardly unknown in the west, either.

Because it is overblown doesn't mean it won't happen. Middle eastern nations have a much higher rape rate then western countries. I know some women from there and they are pretty happy to now life in a country where they are not afraid of getting raped by the police.
Rape in Muslim countries has been used to force women out of public spaces. It breaks outspoken feminists, scares women away and gives pretence for "protection measures" like public veiling. With enough immigration in a short enough time it is possible the same will happen here. That won't happen if a few million spread over 500 million Europeans the next 40 years, but might if a few dozen million come in one or two decades and settle in only a few countries.

[madd0ct0r]

Because it is overblown do sent mean its worth panicking over either. If people actually cared about the risk they'd be protesting car accidents not gang rape. No. It just is something that feeds into a primative part of the human brain that responds more to a black man fucking a white woman than a white man doing the same.

It's a primative tribal response circuit that makes people care about this far more than the actual lack of events suggests they should. The obvious example being previous posts. How many posts in this thread have entered on a sexual predator theme? How many on actual signifficant risks? It's not just here. It's everywhere. Do you want a list of European magazines that used an image of a non-white hand on a virginally white girl in the last year? Do you want a list that carried a story with the opposite image? Sex sells. Tribal feelings sell. And it is fucking hard for an adult human to not be drawn into that even if they know better.

'Muslim countries' in-fucking-deed. Are you saying rural Bangladesh is the same as urban Malaysia is the same as a madras in suafia Arabia is the same as an officers club in pakistan is the same as an arab suburb of israel?

[Broomstick]

Because it is overblown doesn't mean it won't happen. Middle eastern nations have a much higher rape rate then western countries. I know some women from there and they are pretty happy to now life in a country where they are not afraid of getting raped by the police.

Do you honestly believe that women haven't been raped by police in the west?

It's not systematic, but it happens. The major difference is that in the west a woman isn't going to be executed for being a rape victim.

Rape in Muslim countries has been used to force women out of public spaces. It breaks outspoken feminists, scares women away and gives pretence for "protection measures" like public veiling.

All of that has occurred in the west, too, restriction of women for their protection. Not face-veiling, of course, but indecent exposure laws are different for women than for men.

Does that mean things are as bad in the west as in the MENA for women? Nope - definitely prefer the west, particularly since I've seen considerable improvement in my lifetime. But don't ever get the idea that the west is paradise for women. We're still victimized, still oppressed, and all too often still blamed for being crime victims. Just not as much as some other places.

[Wild Zontargs]

Well, there does seem to be an increase in the problem linked with immigrants / refugees. Östersund, Sweden is cancelling Earth Hour because of a wave of attacks associated with foreigners.

[via Google Translate]

The police went in last week and warned the women [not] to go out alone at night. On Saturday extinguished world down under an hour - but the municipality and the police have agreed to keep Ostersund lit on Saturday.

On Tuesday, the municipal working committee decided that the street lighting in central Östersund will remain lit. Even during the hour-long climate event Earth Hour on Saturday.

The decision was taken on the recommendation of and in consultation with the police - and it is the recent unrest in the center which is the basis for the decision.

- Earth Hour is a good and important events, but this year we choose to have street lights lit view of what has happened. We want everyone to feel safe, says councilor Ann-Sofie Andersson (S)

- We from the police think it's a very wise move and that the municipality made a good decision. A lit lighting is to create security and is in line with our common efforts to increase security under current conditions, says Stephen Jerand, Chief Constable.

Regarding the investigation into the women attacked in Ostersund as it grows. Right now there are a total of 14 entries, and it is mainly about the different types of molestation where one or more unknown perpetrators persecuted women.

That's from the website of the Swedish national public TV broadcaster. Unfortunately, all the english-language coverage I've been able to find has been from sites with openly anti-immigrant bias. With that in mind, here's some background on the attacks:

WOMEN have been warned not to go out at night unless they are in large groups as Swedish police struggle to cope with a wave of migrant sex attacks in a once peaceful town.

Officers in picturesque Östersund issued the astonishing warning after gangs of "foreign" men went on the rampage, attempting to rape women in the street and even groping a group of 10-year-old girls at a bus stop.

The shocking announcement will heighten concerns around the effects of mass migration on Sweden, which has been struggling to integrate more then 150,000 predominantly Muslim migrants.

Women in the tiny lakeside town of Östersund, in central Sweden, have been terrorised by sex attacks with six such incidents being recorded in the last two weeks.

In all of the cases the male attackers, often acting in gangs, were described as being "of foreign appearance".

The attacks come as Swedish authorities have begun sending increasing numbers of migrants to a refugee reception centre in the small town because all accommodation further south has already been filled.

Speaking at an extraordinary press conference yesterday police chiefs issued a stunning warning to women, telling them Östersund is now so unsafe they should not go out after dark alone.

Regional police chief Stephen Jerand said the attacks were unusual because none of the perpetrators appeared to be drunk, adding that officers have witnessed a "worrying trend" in the town.

He said: "The cases of the sexual harassment and attempted rapes have involved groups of up to three people. What stands out is also that none of these perpetrators have been under the influence.

"Now the police are going out and warning women against travelling alone in the city. We have seen a worrying trend.

"This is serious, we care about the protection of women and that is why we are going out and talking about this."

The most recent assault took place in the early hours of Sunday morning, when three young men attempted to rape a woman in the town centre.

According to police they wrestled her to the ground shortly after 1am and tried to rip her trousers off, before she managed to fight back and escape.

The perpetrators have been described as "tall, slim, aged 18-25 and speaking Swedish with a foreign accent".

Just a few hours later, police received another report of a lone woman being attacked by a young man in the same neighbourhood.

A police report states that an unknown man in his late 20s "whose appearance was described as foreign" suddenly lunged at the woman and attacked her.

Detectives said that the man walked up to her and punched her in the face before throwing her to the ground, pushing her head into the tarmac, and running off.

Most shockingly of all police are probing a disturbing incident in which a group of men tried to grope four ten-year-old girls who were waiting at a bus station in central Ostersund.

Police also highlighted an additional four cases in the past two weeks, including a lone woman assaulted by three men, and a report of a group of ten-year-old girls being harassed by men in central Östersund.

The warning was today defended by police, who said they had learnt from previous criticism when they failed to alert the public to the threat of migrant sex attacks.

Mr Jerand admitted officers had failed to protect a number of women who were sexually assaulted at a music festival in Stockholm, with the subsequent cover-up of the crimes shocking the nation.

He said: "Police have previously been criticised for not going out and informing people, I think of the example of the criticism over the We Are Stockholm festival.

"Therefore we choose now to go out and tell people. We would, of course, not scare people, but at the same time, we have a responsibility to tell people what is happening."

But the warning was widely criticised by women's rights advocates, who expressed concerns that Sweden's hard fought gender equality is being undermined by a blind obedience to the dogma of multiculturalism.

Local government commissioner Ann-Sofie Andersson said it was fundamentally wrong to ask women to "adapt" to the needs of sex abuse monsters.

She said: "The solution can never be to not go out because of such a warning. We have very many women who work in home and social care at night for example. What are they supposed to do?

"It's wrong if it calls on women to adapt to the criminals. It risks leading people the wrong way, if the victims must adapt to the perpetrators."

Sweden has taken in 163,000 migrants in 2015, which is a far higher proportion than any other European nation in relation to its tiny population.

Amid growing concern over the cultural impact of mass migration, the country recently reimposed border controls including ID checks to curb the number of people coming in.

The migrant influx has fuelled a surge in support for far-right parties in Sweden, with the anti-immigrant Swedish Democrats (SD) party polling at over 25 per cent of public support.

[madd0ct0r]

Call me when any of these "forigen appearance' guys turn out to have refugee status. Just like the last time?

[Grumman]

Call me when any of these "forigen appearance' guys turn out to have refugee status. Just like the last time?

Refugee status is granted at the end of the asylum seeking process, not the beginning. If an asylum seeker commits a crime, Europe cannot avoid responsibility by accurately pointing out that he hasn't been granted refugee status (yet) when the problem is that Europe is failing to discriminate between those who have been granted refugee status and those who haven't.

[madd0ct0r]

Call me when any of these "forigen appearance' guys turn out to have refugee status. Just like the last time?

Refugee status is granted at the end of the asylum seeking process, not the beginning. If an asylum seeker commits a crime, Europe cannot avoid responsibility by accurately pointing out that he hasn't been granted refugee status (yet) when the problem is that Europe is failing to discriminate between those who have been granted refugee status and those who haven't.

Dude. Last time it turned out to mostly be people with full resident status who'd been there years.: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 74201.html

Cologne: Three out of 58 men arrested over mass sex attack on New Year's Eve were refugees from Syria or Iraq
Majority of suspects are of Algerian, Tunisian or Moroccan descent and none had recently arrived in Germany, police have reportedly said

I'm not really sure what this 'Europe' entity is you are pointing at. I seem to recall you as a right wing israeli, perhaps we all look the same from so far away?

[Thanas]

madddoctor, that article is BS, because it took a German quote out of context and took it as the centerpiece of their article.

[madd0ct0r]

madddoctor, that article is BS, because it took a German quote out of context and took it as the centerpiece of their article.

could you post a more relevant one than? Deutch is fine, but my search engine stuff dosen't tend to return german language articles, and the ones I do get I know a lot less about the relability of that paper. The Indy is normally pretty good.

[Thanas]

Here is the FAZ
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/flue ... 71659.html

My rough translation from the german:

Investiagtions are running against 73 subjects/accused now, said the District Attorney of Cologne. The "vast majority" of them are Asylum applicants, asylum seekers or people who were staying illegally in Germany.

[Welf]

Do you honestly believe that women haven't been raped by police in the west?

It's not systematic, but it happens. The major difference is that in the west a woman isn't going to be executed for being a rape victim.

I'm pretty sure it happens. But it is not expected behaviour, and I don't think women are afraid of calling police. That contains women into their own homes, and makes them dependent on their family; much more efficient than laws. And I think that is the major difference.

Rape in Muslim countries has been used to force women out of public spaces. It breaks outspoken feminists, scares women away and gives pretence for "protection measures" like public veiling.

All of that has occurred in the west, too, restriction of women for their protection. Not face-veiling, of course, but indecent exposure laws are different for women than for men.

Does that mean things are as bad in the west as in the MENA for women? Nope - definitely prefer the west, particularly since I've seen considerable improvement in my lifetime. But don't ever get the idea that the west is paradise for women. We're still victimized, still oppressed, and all too often still blamed for being crime victims. Just not as much as some other places.

Yes, affairs are bad here, too. I did hear quite a few stories from friends and acquaintances ranging from some using male identities on the internet to avoid harassment, to nervous breakdowns at workplace to worse. Stuff I didn't consider possible today.
But it still can get worse, much worse. I don't want to see more of the above happening.

[Eleas]

Well, there does seem to be an increase in the problem linked with immigrants / refugees. Östersund, Sweden is cancelling Earth Hour because of a wave of attacks associated with foreigners.

[via Google Translate]<snip>

That's from the website of the Swedish national public TV broadcaster.

Yes. And if you look at it, it actually said nothing at all about immigrants. The Daily Express, an infamously racist tabloid rag that fails to provide source, does not constitute corroborating evidence. Currently, one asylum seeker from Iraq is being charged with crime. That's what we know so far, and lack of knowledge should not mean turning to the magazine that 1933 read the headline "JUDEA DECLARES WAR ON GERMANY! Jews Of All The World Unite In Action." is a valid move.

The Expressen article certainly does not lend credence to the "only immigrants" spiel. In fact, since the quoted perpetrators demonstrably share both rhetoric and vocabulary with Sweden Democrat members in parliament, I'm tempted to consider that ironclad proof of SD guilt by the same standards of evidence.

[jwl]

I don't think that what the express was doing in 1933 is really relevant. Especially since they have a whole load of dodgy headlines these days that serve as a better example.

[Simon_Jester]

Because it is overblown doesn't mean it won't happen. Middle eastern nations have a much higher rape rate then western countries. I know some women from there and they are pretty happy to now life in a country where they are not afraid of getting raped by the police.

Do you honestly believe that women haven't been raped by police in the west?

If it isn't happening often enough that Middle Eastern women in Germany are "afraid of getting raped by the police," Welf still has a point and everything he says is literally correct.

It's like, if you have a country where the police habitually shake people down for bribes/protection money, and move to a country where this is rare, you can be happy to live in a place where the police are not corrupt. That doesn't mean literally zero policemen are taking bribes, it means you personally are unlikely enough to have this problem, compared to your home country, that you don't worry about the issue anymore.

It's not systematic, but it happens. The major difference is that in the west a woman isn't going to be executed for being a rape victim.

Rape in Muslim countries has been used to force women out of public spaces. It breaks outspoken feminists, scares women away and gives pretence for "protection measures" like public veiling.

All of that has occurred in the west, too, restriction of women for their protection. Not face-veiling, of course, but indecent exposure laws are different for women than for men.

Does that mean things are as bad in the west as in the MENA for women? Nope - definitely prefer the west, particularly since I've seen considerable improvement in my lifetime. But don't ever get the idea that the west is paradise for women. We're still victimized, still oppressed, and all too often still blamed for being crime victims. Just not as much as some other places.

Fair- but a black moving out of South Africa into the United States in 1980 might well feel as though they were in a paradise, even though the US is not and never was a paradise for blacks. Because there's a huge difference between a country where your oppression is a matter of official state policy and 90% of the dominant group is strongly in favor of you being oppressed... And a country where the state is at least theoretically committed to giving you a fair chance, where you have at least some chance of being able to argue for equality under the law, and where most of the dominant group is either against oppressing you or is totally indifferent and won't go out of their way to oppress you.

I'm not going to forget about sexism and the oppression of women being a bad thing here... but let's not refuse to even listen to Middle Eastern women who are telling us how and/or why they're happy to move to Germany.

[Broomstick]

It's not that I'm refusing to listen to the women, I get irritated by Western men who are clueless that there are very real problems to being female even in the west, just as there are still drawbacks to being black in a white-dominated society. Yes, things are better but there is still a long way to go. Too often the answer to men behaving badly is still "women, change your conduct".

[K. A. Pital]

Western men have had their share of misogyny, but it is undeniable things have changed in industrialized European countries (the US is not really a European country, so I leave it out of the comparison). Changed to a point where women can safely walk alone in all but the worst kinds of neighborhoods.

The attitudes are incomparable simply because much of the Middle East was locked in repressive semi-feudal relations for ages.

It won't change because people wave at it. The base controls and defines the superstructure.

And if "change your conduct" coming from the First World far right is cringeworthy, I have very bad news - it will be just as bad or worse with people from war-torn ME nations, because people from tribal socities espouse "family values" in the fascist-traditionalist sense, summed up by the "kitchen-church-children" triad.

There are drawbacks to every society, but in places in the Middle East where women aren't enslaves or generally treated as shit (like the Kurdish areas) the women have to create armed self-defense units - to defend themselves, their comrades and to prevent men from trying to go back to the "old ways".

Just ignoring this problem by saying there are shitbags with backwards views in the West won't solve it, full stop.

[Honorius]

Do you honestly believe that women haven't been raped by police in the west?

Actually was part of an investigation into one of those. Got a call for an unconscious woman with suspected OD. We got there and the scene did not match up with the officer's description and we noticed scratch marks on his face,vaginal and semen stains on the ground, and mess in the living room. We had just gotten protocols for Narcan and were able to get her breathing again began transport with my partner doing the rape kit and assessment.

We knew that cop raped that patient and tried to kill her and pass it off as a drug overdose, but luckily our Director was a former cop himself and well respected by the local law enforcement and backed us and the patient/victim in getting that cop in prison. Other places, the fact she was black and a known addict would have shielded the cop from the harsh hand of justice.

Not everyone is so lucky and it is still extremely difficult to prove rape cases in the US and the most difficult problem is getting women to even press the charges and then convince a jury that the accused is a monster while all the defendant's dirty laundry is brought out. Even if they win, the defendant serves at most 7 years if that which is a fucking travesty as non-violent drug use of crack can land a woman in jail for 20 years minimum.

It's not systematic, but it happens. The major difference is that in the west a woman isn't going to be executed for being a rape victim.

Not to down play this, but they aren't executed for being a rape victim, they're executed for falsely accusing someone of rape without evidence to back it.

Sharia law requires direct evidence to prove a crime was committed. DNA only states sex occurred, it doesn't tell the circumstances and in that case the law is heavily weighed to the defendant in a rape case. Especially is it is not unheard of for women to falsely accuse someone of rape.

If a women can get the witnesses or video evidence necessary to prove her case or the Rapist confesses, the Rapist is killed under Sharia Law. However if someone accuses them falsely, and is found out, they shall suffer the same fate the defendant faced if found guilty to deter false accusations.

Neither system is really set up to help the victims get justice, as both are based on the presumption of innocence for the defendant as it should be as you are accusing them of a serious crime which if proven will ruin them and even if they successfully defend themselves will haunt them.

However, the Sharia System makes the punishment fit the crime if proven, the Western One makes a mockery of the crime by treating rape less seriously than non-violent drug possession.

There is no easy answer to this conundrum, but the West does need to ramp up the penalties for rape and not treat it as less serious than non-violent drug use and the Sharia Law needs to stop executing accusers who fail to prove their case.

[K. A. Pital]

I have a better solution. The West should not criminalize non-violent drug possession and should not alter rape laws to appease Dark Age barbarians like Honorius.

[Ralin]

I have a better solution. The West should not criminalize non-violent drug possession and should not alter rape laws to appease Dark Age barbarians like Honorius.

What part of that do you find barbaric? Cus I don't know the ins and outs of Sharia law, but I'm not seeing how he's saying anything other than "both systems fail badly in protecting rape victims and need to be changed."

[Welf]

What part of that do you find barbaric? Cus I don't know the ins and outs of Sharia law, but I'm not seeing how he's saying anything other than "both systems fail badly in protecting rape victims and need to be changed."

Honorius both demands a softening of sharia penalties for rape, and harsher penalties in western societies. K.A.Pital says there is no need to make western laws more strict since this only applies to our darker desires for vengeance and brutality.

[K. A. Pital]

I have a better solution. The West should not criminalize non-violent drug possession and should not alter rape laws to appease Dark Age barbarians like Honorius.

What part of that do you find barbaric? Cus I don't know the ins and outs of Sharia law, but I'm not seeing how he's saying anything other than "both systems fail badly in protecting rape victims and need to be changed."

Everything.

1. Western penalties for rape are strict enough. People who say 5 years in prison are a "mild" penalty clearly have zero fucking idea what prison actually is. 5 years in prison with a sexual offense mean a life that's broken forever. The person will likely still emerge from prison, but his chances in life will be very slim (which, in turn, premeditates repeat offense - so perhaps the Scandinavian rehabiltation system is a better idea). In a brutal prison system, and many prison systems have been unable to tackle brutality, even a 1-2 year sentence will crush the person's life forever.

2. Moreover, Honorius has no understanding of what it means to be a rapist in prison. Even in the West, rapists are usually themselves subjected to the worst kind of rape in prison (per the unwritten criminal conduct code, a killer can be a "man", but a rapist - especially a child rapist - can not, he has to be either raped or killed).

3. Sharia law is a dangerous and brutal throwback even in the most watered-down form. To Honorius, Sharia law is actually better because occasionally rapists are killed. I don't even need to explain how fucking dumb that is. "Punishment fits the crime"? If anything, jail gang-rape that's a very likely outcome for most rapists who end behind bars is "punishment fits the crime", but taking a life without remorse and also requiring the potential victim to be ready for DEATH shall she be unable to conclusively prove rape is just total bullshit that feels good for the XVI, XVII century but not for present day.

The statement is pretty simple: (1) the West should not "ramp up" penalties for rape, instead lesser offenses should carry no punishment or stop being a crime at all (2) Sharia law should be abolished wherever possible, and where it can't be abolished and replaced with secular law, at the very minimum imprisoning or killing women should be completely out of the question. That is the bare minimum of civilization. The West should not allow the Sharia law in any form of shape to take root (it is sad that this happens in some places; I find it a regrettable concession that will inevitably have bad results in the future), as it is a dangerous reactionary element that simply doesn't belong in a "developed society" which the Western liberal capitalist nations claim to be.

Finally, there's no general "West" as such where people get thrown in jail for smoking some weed for 20 years! That's simply not true. Most of Europe has been moving towards decriminalizing marijuana and recreational non-violent drug use in general. So this carries no penalty in many nations or a minor administrative offense.

[Ralin]

Honorius both demands a softening of sharia penalties for rape,

Where did he say that? He straight up said that executing rapists under Sharia law is a fitting punishment!

1. Western penalties for rape are strict enough. People who say 5 years in prison are a "mild" penalty clearly have zero fucking idea what prison actually is. 5 years in prison with a sexual offense mean a life that's broken forever. The person will likely still emerge from prison, but his chances in life will be very slim (which, in turn, premeditates repeat offense - so perhaps the Scandinavian rehabiltation system is a better idea). In a brutal prison system, and many prison systems have been unable to tackle brutality, even a 1-2 year sentence will crush the person's life forever.

Pretty sure you're reading more into it than he intended. He's using the disparity in punishment to make the point that rape cases aren't taken as seriously in the West (by which I think he mostly means America) as they should be. It's about the contrast between how rapists and their victims are treated, not literally calling for super hardcore castrate them increased punishment. You're focusing way too much on that one part of his post.

2. Moreover, Honorius has no understanding of what it means to be a rapist in prison. Even in the West, rapists are usually themselves subjected to the worst kind of rape in prison (per the unwritten criminal conduct code, a killer can be a "man", but a rapist - especially a child rapist - can not, he has to be either raped or killed).

None of that will happen if they aren't arrested and convicted. Which as Honorius said in his post, happens all too infrequently.

Or maybe Honorius will clarify that yes, he totally believes Sharia law is way too hard on rapists and/or that he supports them being publicly tortured to death, but I do not personally get that vibe from his post.

[Welf]

Honorius both demands a softening of sharia penalties for rape,

Where did he say that? He straight up said that executing rapists under Sharia law is a fitting punishment!

Huh, I read that paragraph too quickly, you're right.

[madd0ct0r]

Here is the FAZ
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/flue ... 71659.html

My rough translation from the german:

Investiagtions are running against 73 subjects/accused now, said the District Attorney of Cologne. The "vast majority" of them are Asylum applicants, asylum seekers or people who were staying illegally in Germany.

I did see this and I started a reply but I'm not really sure what I'm arguing. The quote is woolly and hard to get to grips with. I wouldn't class illeagel residents in the same status as asylum applicants. I would keep both seperate from people who have been legally resident in the country for five years, even if they are resident as aslyum seekers.

And I'm not sure where it is going as an argument. That the issue isn't refugees from Syria? That the timing was coincidence or only noticed then reported then had more victims come forward following the story being in the media because everyone was more aware of the potential of racially tinged violence, the Lind that sells papers.

But the police statement is vague. What if he meant 30 of the seventy were Moroccan applicants, what if they were a dozen in a pickpocker gang who created the vast majority of the cases? Its just chaff.

[K. A. Pital]

You're focusing way too much on that one part of his post.

No. Re-read what I posted above. I don't agree with neither the assessment of rape punishment in Europe (which is the majority of Western nations FFS) as lenient, nor with the assessment of Sharia law punishment of rapists as "fitting". Finally, I don't agree that rape laws should be made more brutal in the West and think that the whole comparison is bullshit because it's built on just one example of America which is paranoid and crazy about non-violent drug use and light drugs, compared to other nations - where in fact there's no punishment for light drugs, and so it's not "ramping up" what's needed but relaxing America's insane Drug War policy (I can't honestly call it "war on drugs", sorry). That's all.