Luke Skywalker may be gay?

[Galvatron]

If it doesn't serve the story in some way, do we really need Luke to come out of the closet? I'm as liberal as the next guy, but I don't want Star Wars to turn into the Social Justice Wars.

I'd just as soon see homosexuality treated as not even worthy of a raised eyebrow, just like it was in nBSG or Mass Effect.

[Elheru Aran]

If it doesn't serve the story in some way, do we really need Luke to come out of the closet? I'm as liberal as the next guy, but I don't want Star Wars to turn into the Social Justice Wars.

I'd just as soon see homosexuality treated as not even worthy of a raised eyebrow, just like it was in nBSG or Mass Effect.

I'm pretty certain they're not going to bother showing/depicting it. The only romance that's going to happen is going to involve Rey.

Look at the OT: there's Han, Luke, and Leia. That's it. While the Han/Leia romance is fairly significant, it's not *that* big of a deal-- it only drove a subplot through the latter two movies. Doesn't really exist, apart from a few snarky lines, in the first.

Prequels? Anakin and Padme. Nothing else. (Well, apart from maybe a few awkward moments with Obi-wan and Anakin, but that's about it)

Sequel trilogy... well we've got Finn, Poe, and Rey. Leia's there, but she's not a main character, she's a supporting character. Han was a main character and well look where that went. I'm pretty sure Luke isn't going to be a prominent main character, so I doubt any romantic interest will be forthcoming on his part, unless we run into Rey's mother at some point and she tells us that Luke is her father or whatever. No, any romance side-plots will be between the three youngsters, I'm pretty sure. Unless something kinda gross turns out like Luke going after Rey, or Finn delivers a space pizza to Leia's beach cabana...

[The Romulan Republic]

The problem is, you can't show only heterosexual relationships and claim to just be neutral on the subject.

If the only relationships the Star Wars films show are straight relationships, the implication is that those relationships are normal and accepted in the franchise and gay relationships are not.

Edit: That's not to say you make a big deal out of them being gay. That would be clumsy, heavy-handed hack writing. Ideally, they should have gay couples, and write them much the same way they write straight couples.

[Elheru Aran]

The problem is, you can't show only heterosexual relationships and claim to just be neutral on the subject.

If the only relationships the Star Wars films show are straight relationships, the implication is that those relationships are normal and accepted in the franchise and gay relationships are not.

Edit: That's not to say you make a big deal out of them being gay. That would be clumsy, heavy-handed hack writing. Ideally, they should have gay couples, and write them much the same way they write straight couples.

Not necessarily. A.) Big universe, remember? and b.) We're only seeing a small slice of that universe (albeit a very important and pivotal slice). It's quite possible that we don't see homosexual relationships simply because none happen to impinge upon the slice of the universe we're looking at.

That said, I've said it before and I will say it again-- Star Wars isn't so much about the love stories as it is about the heroic journeys of the protagonists. Just because it only has straight protagonists (that we know of, thus far), doesn't mean that there are no gay protagonists to be found elsewhere.

[Crazedwraith]

"Oh yes, we're very progressive. We have gay people. It's just they are hidden away so you never ever see them."?

[Lord Revan]

we should remember that it's not a 50/50 split when it comes to sexual preferences, IIRC there's no straight people then there's LBGT people put together. Shoehorning a LBGT relationship for the sake of having one isn't gonna go over well even with people who have nothing against sexual minorities.

[Sidewinder]

"Oh yes, we're very progressive. We have gay people. It's just they are hidden away so you never ever see them."?

I have to agree with the Elheru Aran on this subject:

That said, I've said it before and I will say it again-- Star Wars isn't so much about the love stories as it is about the heroic journeys of the protagonists. Just because it only has straight protagonists (that we know of, thus far), doesn't mean that there are no gay protagonists to be found elsewhere.

That said, I can picture the following scene occurring, possibly off screen.

Finn: "Poe, I have something to tell you."

Poe: "Is it relevant to this mission?"

Finn: "No, but..."

Poe: "Then save it for later. We have a damn planet to save, and after we save this planet, we have a whole damn galaxy to save."

Finn: "My heart beats for..."

Poe: "If we don't act now, we're all going to die, and your heart will beat no more. SAVE IT FOR LATER."

[Elheru Aran]

"Oh yes, we're very progressive. We have gay people. It's just they are hidden away so you never ever see them."?

*shrugs* If you want to interpret it that way, sure.

I mean, I look at it this way. It's like taking a camcorder and following a random person around their life for a few hours. No narration, no description, all you get is picture and dialogue. In those few hours, what can you really tell about the world about them? How many people are going to be visibly gay? What kind of relationships are you most likely to see? Revan makes a good point; there's more straight people, or bi/gay people who identify as straight anyway, than there are openly gay people. To a certain degree, it's a simple matter of odds.

I should note that I'm not *against* it. I'd be fine with Poe and Finn sharing a kiss at some point, for example. I just want it to be handled well and not just a case of "Oh here's some gay people for the diversity brownie points". A random pair of guys living together in the same hovel who give our heroes a hand when they need it, sure. A random pair of ladies who laugh off Finn's clumsy attempt at flirting, sure. Rey meets a girl and builds up a relationship, sure. Not some clumsy "Look at that there's TWO GUYS KISSING" move. Something that develops a little more organically. Han and Leia didn't open ESB like a porn movie, after all.

Is it exclusionary? Is it a bad implication? Sure, from a certain point of view. But it would almost be worse to throw a gay relationship in there purely for the sake of having one. Sexual orientation has never been an issue in the Star Wars (movie) universe, and shouldn't be handled as one.

[Elheru Aran]

Finn: "Poe, I have something to tell you."

Poe: "Is it relevant to this mission?"

Finn: "No, but..."

Poe: "Then save it for later. We have a damn planet to save, and after we save this planet, we have a whole damn galaxy to save."

Finn: "My heart beats for..."

Poe: "If we don't act now, we're all going to die, and your heart will beat no more. SAVE IT FOR LATER."

See? That, I approve of. It's got the right tone, it sets the ground for some interesting stuff later on, it doesn't shift focus from the primary plot to the romantic shit.

[Crazedwraith]

"Oh yes, we're very progressive. We have gay people. It's just they are hidden away so you never ever see them."?

*shrugs* If you want to interpret it that way, sure.

I mean, I look at it this way. It's like taking a camcorder and following a random person around their life for a few hours. No narration, no description, all you get is picture and dialogue. In those few hours, what can you really tell about the world about them? How many people are going to be visibly gay? What kind of relationships are you most likely to see? Revan makes a good point; there's more straight people, or bi/gay people who identify as straight anyway, than there are openly gay people. To a certain degree, it's a simple matter of odds.

If you followed a random person around their life for a few hours. You wouldn't see them save the Galaxy from an evil Empire's superweapon either. so?

films are not random. They are a constructed narrative. The writers/director get to include whatever the want to include. They get to choose what's important to their story. Who the protagonist's love interest will be. Etc. It's not a matter of random chance.

Now, I agree it shouldn't be thrown in just because. And that Star Wars has more often been about familial love than romantic ones. So yeah they don't need to include any LGBT relationships. But this is the statement you responded to:

The problem is, you can't show only heterosexual relationships and claim to just be neutral on the subject.

And I still don't think saying 'well they are probably gay people we never see because statistics' really disproves that.

I should note that I'm not *against* it. I'd be fine with Poe and Finn sharing a kiss at some point, for example. I just want it to be handled well and not just a case of "Oh here's some gay people for the diversity brownie points". A random pair of guys living together in the same hovel who give our heroes a hand when they need it, sure. A random pair of ladies who laugh off Finn's clumsy attempt at flirting, sure. Rey meets a girl and builds up a relationship, sure. Not some clumsy "Look at that there's TWO GUYS KISSING" move. Something that develops a little more organically. Han and Leia didn't open ESB like a porn movie, after all.

Is it exclusionary? Is it a bad implication? Sure, from a certain point of view. But it would almost be worse to throw a gay relationship in there purely for the sake of having one. Sexual orientation has never been an issue in the Star Wars (movie) universe, and shouldn't be handled as one.

All this was pretty much exactly the point. You don't get credit for what you don't show. What you do show should be as well written and subtle as anything heterosexual you would show.

Who exactly do you think was arguing that they should include really badly written relationship material or turn it into softcore gay porn or something?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Ok. First thing is first.

His sexually has always been irrelevant to him (not in general, but to his character development in particular), barring his initial interest in his own sister. An interest which frankly was probably just his own (mostly) latent force-sensitivity. Siblings, particularly twins, who are not raised together are actually MORE likely to be sexually attracted to eachother than they would be to random strangers. Combine that with an instant feeling of closeness due to their force sensitivity and relatedness that Luke in particular does not know what to do with (Leia though, already being a seasoned politician who we know is resistant torture and probably force-probes is more mentally disciplined at this point), and that is going to fuck with anyone's perceptions.

So that is not evidence either way.

Luke COULD be gay going from strictly canon sources, but why bother? Poe probably is at least Bi (and Finn could be too, if not I expect Poe to find someone he likes in a later film), and yes, it is important to have gay, bi, and trans characters in fiction. If you need me to explain why, politely go fuck yourself.

*shrugs* If you want to interpret it that way, sure.

Because that is exactly what it is.

Writing is not constrained by real world odds, and if we held ourselves to that standard, there would never be gay people included in fiction. However, with an ensemble cast, there is no excuse. Even if it is something small. Star Trek has been around for decades and has danced around the subject to a degree that is hypocritical and insulting. Star Wars also has large supporting casts (particularly if you include Clone Wars) and odds are you would find someone married to another dude, or another woman. At some point. Somewhere.

And no, sexuality is NOT irrelevant in the star wars universe as portrayed. People's sexuality matters all the fucking time. See Han and Leia, Obi Wan and the dutchess, we dont even need to go into the Anakin Skywalker clusterfuck. You can only SAY it is irrelevant because the heterosexuality you see everywhere is considered by you to be the irrelevant default.

[Simon_Jester]

To expand on what Alyrium is trying to say, I think...

Basically, when you're straight, you tend to take for granted that (for instance) men will do irrational things to impress women they're attracted to. Or who they might be attracted to. Or who they want to be attracted to them. It doesn't register that the men do this because they are trying to conduct themselves in a way that maximizes their chances of having sex with women. Maybe not this woman in particular, maybe not right now, but in general.

If you're a straight man, or for that matter a straight woman, you take that for granted. It is how roughly 90% of all males behave, and if you are straight it is how you behave.

So you don't notice a male character engaging in such behaviors, despite the fact that they are very much driven by the character's sexuality.

But a gay guy who has no gut-level understanding of why other men do such things toward women will see this behavior as "oh yes, he's doing that because he is heterosexual."

[Alyrium Denryle]

Pretty close, but not exact. It is the same bullshit with "I dont have a problem with gay people, but why do they have to shove it in our face all the time" referring of course to PDA, and our being open about our gayness. Forgetting of course that their straightness is shoved in our face every second of every day.

Even in films where sexuality is not a primary component, it is still everywhere. In ESB, people downplay the importance of the Han/Leia romance, when it is actually central to their characterization. That whole movie is character development for them, a central component being their feelings for eachother. Down to open jealousy when Lando is being all charming in Leia's direction.

But heterosexuality is the default, so the straight people dont notice.

Which is really galling to me, because Star Wars (and lots of other speculative fiction, including comic books) are heroic epics/secular mythology. They are supposed to feature characters we can identify with and engage with our culture. Either as morality plays, allegories for growing up, or social commentary. Space opera is not just space ships, lasers, and visual spectacle. If it was, the social reactionaries in the sad and rabbid puppies would not get so worked up about the inclusion of minorities being a thing in the Hugo awards.

When we are excluded from that, it is basically saying "You are excluded from our cultural metanarratives. You are not Of Us" which may be a bit abstract to the straight people, but they are not on the receiving end and thus dont notice it. On a more concrete level, we are denied the role models these stories provide that we can identify with. The more pointed the exclusion, the worse it is. Star Trek is even worse than Star Wars in this respect, because the message of inclusion in that franchise has been a major thing since the 1960s, and LGBT inclusion they have very pointedly resisted, as opposed to Star Wars which is more of a cycle of coming-of-age/morality tale heroic epics.

Stargate managed it, nBSG managed, Hell, Babylon 5 managed to pull that off in the early fucking 90s, and in no case was it badly executed. There is no excuse for it anymore.

[Lord Revan]

If you ask me I'd rather see it in one the side movies where a gay character could be given time and respect such a character needs (well any character needs tbh) or if you absolutely have to have in the main trilogy have it be in episode 9 again so that character can be constructed in such a way that the reveal seems organic and not "oh shit we don't got a LBGT character, lets make 'character x* gay to shut up the critics".

Now if the reveal was planned before hand and this is only the first time they came public with it. It could maybe work for Episode 8, but shoehorning a gay character in the narative to be progressive is gonna end in tears (or at least a lot of yelling from both sides).

[Crazedwraith]

If you ask me I'd rather see it in one the side movies where a gay character could be given time and respect such a character needs (well any character needs tbh) or if you absolutely have to have in the main trilogy have it be in episode 9 again so that character can be constructed in such a way that the reveal seems organic and not "oh shit we don't got a LBGT character, lets make 'character x* gay to shut up the critics".

Now if the reveal was planned before hand and this is only the first time they came public with it. It could maybe work for Episode 8, but shoehorning a gay character in the narative to be progressive is gonna end in tears (or at least a lot of yelling from both sides).

If there was a new character with a heterosexual relationship, would we need to wait until Episode 9 for that to be made clear?

Would a new heterosexual character be clearly shoehorned in if they appeared in Episode 8?

[APlayerHater]

This is Disney. I doubt they're going to make a mainstream Star Wars character gay. Certainly not one of the OG star wars characters.
They'll be content to quietly say Luke is gay in 3rd party materials or interviews, but they will not give any proof of it in the film.

That's my problem with Dumbledore. You can imply his brother has sex with sheep in the book, but you'd better not give any evidence that Dumbledore is gay until you're in an interview and you want to sell another book, and retroactively making a safe character like Dumbledore gay is the easiest way to get noticed.

And they will wait until 8 to shoehorn in a romance because 5 had a romance. Poe will probably have a bigger role and Finn will probably be sidelined out of combat due to his injury. Finn and Poe had an onscreen chemistry I wasn't feeling with Finn and Rey. So who knows. It's possible something could happen between them.

But like I said: Disney probably wants to play it safe. They will probably awkwardly shove Poe and Rey together. You might think Finn and Rey, but this is Disney.

This is their chance though, because you can take more risks in the sequel.

You can still make Finn gay at this point. Give him some flashback sequences or something. Flesh his character out please.

[Lord Revan]

If you ask me I'd rather see it in one the side movies where a gay character could be given time and respect such a character needs (well any character needs tbh) or if you absolutely have to have in the main trilogy have it be in episode 9 again so that character can be constructed in such a way that the reveal seems organic and not "oh shit we don't got a LBGT character, lets make 'character x* gay to shut up the critics".

Now if the reveal was planned before hand and this is only the first time they came public with it. It could maybe work for Episode 8, but shoehorning a gay character in the narative to be progressive is gonna end in tears (or at least a lot of yelling from both sides).

If there was a new character with a heterosexual relationship, would we need to wait until Episode 9 for that to be made clear?

Would a new heterosexual character be clearly shoehorned in if they appeared in Episode 8?

Thank you for totally and utterly missing my point!

My point was (as you were clearly too stupid to get it the first time), if you are gonna do this then TAKE TIME TO DO IT WELL, I would rather see a well done gay character in episode 9 then a poor done rush job to attempt to appease the LGBT crowd in episode 8.

if you read my whole post you would have noticed that I said if said character had been in development already and this was just a reveal of "hey guys there will a character in episode 8 who is openly homosexual" I would be fine with that.

Since LGBT characters aren't the same thing as straight characters thanks to the bad treatment of LGBT people in the past.

A bad straight character would be no big deal, a bad LBGT character on the other would be a very big deal. As for shoehorned in straight character we already had one in the form of Jar-Jar Binks and he wasn't exactly well recievied.

[Crazedwraith]

How much time do you think it takes to write something? Movies take years to write and produce, is that not 'long enough'? Where exactly do you think the problem arises. Take nearly any well written love story that doesn't involve pregnancy, chance character A to be the same sex as character Boom, done.

It's only different because people think it's different and it'll only stop being different when you stop treating it differently.

Being well done/well written goes without saying. And for the second time I've had to ask someone in this thread: Who the hell do you think is advocating putting a badly written, rushed gay romance in a film. Because literally no-one is asking for that

[APlayerHater]

A bad straight character would be no big deal, a bad LBGT character on the other would be a very big deal. As for shoehorned in straight character we already had one in the form of Jar-Jar Binks and he wasn't exactly well recievied.

I'm gonna need some quotes from you proving that Jar-Jar Binks is straight.

I'm not sure how homosexuality is treated in the SW universe, other than not appearing to exist (unless there are some clone wars/rebels characters that are gay). If they make the First Order or any of the characters homophobic it might instantly date this movie. There's something to be said for not treating it like a big deal, which I'm sure is the path they'll have to go on if they do put a gay character in.

I really think Finn is the way to go here. They could show Finn being bullied in the empire, and constantly having to go to their weird storm trooper indoctrination things, to try to 'cure' his deviancy from the storm trooper way. I'm not saying they'll treat him differently because he's 'gay' per se, but the way Phasma talked it seemed like maybe him visiting the counselor was a frequent thing, so maybe he was just "different". They could kill 2 birds with one stone by giving us a homosexual character without it seeming forced, and fleshing out Finn's backstory more with some pathos.

Because as it stands, I have no idea why he, from his perspective, would think the Resistance were the good guys. Sure, burning people with flamethrowers is wrong, but the US employed flame throwers in wars before. Am I saying the US are the good guys? Well, there are plenty of opinions on that matter. But a least give him 'some' kind of motivation to think he didn't belong with the first order, because he's been indoctrinated since birth to feel a certain way, and him instantly switching to a side he knows nothing about is just odd.

[Khaat]

Because as it stands, I have no idea why he (Finn), from his perspective, would think the Resistance were the good guys.

The Resistance opposed the First Order, who gave the order to gun down prisoners after catching the spy. Finn wasn't on board with gunning down innocents. He wasn't on board with the Resistance until the First Order took his friend, Rey. The Resistance was his only chance to save her (the crew he was hiring on with sure as hells weren't going to attack the First Order for him!) Finn's also a soldier from childhood: soldiering is what he does, so he's got to have some "comfort zone" in "the mission", provided it doesn't go against his well-developed empathy for people.
He lied about being Resistance, right up to joining in on the spec-ops raid on the Star Killer Base.

Dr. Who has done inclusive very well without being "everybody gets equal time" and I would hope to see that degree of nuance in a major motion picture like SWVIII/IX.
A romance played out in the story is the only reason to even see sexuality in play. But I believe it would also be poorly received if an on-screen relationship was called out specifically to "appease"... well, anyone.

[The Romulan Republic]

Finn, I think, probably sympathizes with the Resistance at least in part because Poe, his first real friend, maybe the first person he ever knew outside the First Order, is Resistance.

But even then, like you said, he wasn't prepared to sign on with them until Rey was taken. He just wanted to escape until Rey's life was on the line, and then he joined the Resistance out of necessity.

And yeah, I don't want to see a gay character as a ham-fisted attempt at tokenism. I'd like to see gay characters written as a character like any others.

[APlayerHater]

Finn's motivations for leaving were entirely self serving. As far as I could tell, he freaked out because he was scared of war and wanted to run away.

I don't see how his backstory would provide him with any ideas about human rights, or respect for life or anything like that. If anything, he wanted to escape from a bad situation.

[Lord Revan]

I'm pretty sure that's not something you can do overnight, it's not like you insert something into a story and have it automatically make sense, same thing is true for heterosexual romances as well or countless other things you know stories have this thing called flow that gets disrupted if you just add or remove things willy nilly. Also I'm pretty sure they've already started filming Episode 8 meaning the script is more or less writen already so any major rewrites would delay the production.

It's only different because people think it's different and it'll only stop being different when you stop treating it differently.

No shit Sherlock and I guess you've also invented a device to change how people think overnight. It's the reality we have to live with even if we don't have to like it.

Being well done/well written goes without saying. And for the second time I've had to ask someone in this thread: Who the hell do you think is advocating putting a badly written, rushed gay romance in a film. Because literally no-one is asking for that

You by the looks of it, seeing as you took my point about taking time to make sure that writers don't screw this up as some hidden homophobic agenda.

I'm gonna need some quotes from you proving that Jar-Jar Binks is straight.

As Alyrium Denryle pointed out "heterosexual" is the default. With characters of unknown sexuality we assume they're straight unless given good reason to assume otherwise. That's one the reasons why a well done openly homosexual character is so important, to show that even people who are without any shadow of a dout homosexual are still just people.

[Elheru Aran]

I think it's obvious that people aren't *asking* for badly-written, ham-handed gay characters. A more likely explanation is that people are thinking that that's what may happen given Hollywood's not-great track record (anybody remember that shitty "Chuck and Larry" movie?). It's improved in recent years, and Star Wars is a big enough tentpole property that Disney will treat it with extreme care, but there's still a certain fear, because people do remember such abominations as the Holiday Special and the Ewoks show...

Anyway, I concede that there are nuances of relationship behavior that straight people may not notice, and that having the default relationship type being strictly heterosexual is exclusionary. I don't really think it's deliberate (most of the time), though. That doesn't make it right, of course.

[The Romulan Republic]

Finn's motivations for leaving were entirely self serving. As far as I could tell, he freaked out because he was scared of war and wanted to run away.

I don't see how his backstory would provide him with any ideas about human rights, or respect for life or anything like that. If anything, he wanted to escape from a bad situation.

Fear is a factor, it appears, but don't presume that Finn was incapable of feeling empathy because of his background. Indoctrinated or not, he is still a person, and we do see signs of camaraderie with First Order soldiers (Finn seems affected by the death of a fellow trooper, and bonds quickly with Poe during their escape). So I think he was emotionally capable of grasping that those people being killed are people, and their pointless deaths aren't a good thing.

I don't think it was a carefully thought-out philosophical position given the context, no. I think it was a gut emotional reaction. But I would not dismiss it as just self-serving. After all, he exposed himself to massive personal risk by defecting from the First Order (though in that case, he may have felt that it wasn't safe to remain, since his loyalty was now in doubt).