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Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!
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Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
Now, one thing that one of the semi-regulars pointed out tonight:
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Instead of foodservice equipment, let's play with large format projectors.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
Him, given Bruce's dream, is probably....
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Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
The problem exists only in your own mind. People laughed at that scene - out loud - in the cinema, the joke objectively worked. Further, using that joke as the introduction to the Martha/Clark farm scene would have cheapened what was an emotional moment between a mother and her son. She was confessing to Clark that she never wanted to share him with the rest of the world just as he was being painted as a killer, a monster and a threat.Grumman wrote:I have not found the scripts for the movie yet, so I cannot say whether the problem started in Goyer's original script, in Terrio's rewritten script, or in editing out or rearranging scenes after filming. But regardless of where it started, it would have ended with Snyder if he'd recognised it as a problem. My reference to Writing 101 did not mean it is something only a writer needs to know.Crown wrote:Someone was blaming the writing and pinning it on Snyder. I pointed out that he wasn't the writer.
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
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Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
I don't think you know what "objective" means. It worked for some people, in your theatre, but not for Grumman. That's "subjective".
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
Whether person A or B like something X or Y is subjective, true. Whether something X or Y worked in eliciting the desired response from persons A or B can be measured objectively. Was something X intended to make people laugh? Yes. Did people laugh? Yes. Ergo, objectively it worked. It doesn't mean that everyone has to laugh in order for it to work just a majority.Terralthra wrote:I don't think you know what "objective" means. It worked for some people, in your theatre, but not for Grumman. That's "subjective".
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
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Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
"The joke objectively worked for some people" is what makes it subjective. This isn't rocket science. Whether a joke works or not is subjective. Some people laugh, some people don't. A movie isn't objectively good or bad, a video game isn't objectively fun, etc.
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
Oh jesus, sweet fucking Christ. Yes, we can parse our whole life into subjective experiences if we want and have no meaningful insight at all, or we can talk in generalisations where we can use the 'did the majority find X to be funny' to come away with an objective analysis of said subjective experience.Terralthra wrote:"The joke objectively worked for some people" is what makes it subjective. This isn't rocket science. Whether a joke works or not is subjective. Some people laugh, some people don't. A movie isn't objectively good or bad, a video game isn't objectively fun, etc.
Otherwise what fucking conversation could we possibly have when talking about any movie?
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
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Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
There are lots of things to talk about with regard to objective things about movies. This site was founded on analysis of evidence directly from movies, for example. However, unless you're omnipresent or omniscient, you are talking out of your ass if you think you know whether the majority of watchers of the movie found a particular joke funny. You've seen the movie...once? Twice? You know at most the opinions of some portion of a few hundred people. You found it funny. I'm happy for you. Some people in your theatre(s) found it funny. I'm happy for them, too.
And you know, if you would just talk about your experience instead of bloviating, overassuming, and misusing common words, I'd pretty much stay out of this slapfight. I think Batman is at best a misguided-villain-archetype, Superman is a boy scout with no real complexity whatsoever, and I wouldn't pay money to see a movie featuring both of them. You liked it. Subjective, see? Great. Talk about what you liked about it. Disagree with other people. Calling your personal experience and opinion of it "objective" is mistakenly wrong at best, actively dishonest at worst.
And you know, if you would just talk about your experience instead of bloviating, overassuming, and misusing common words, I'd pretty much stay out of this slapfight. I think Batman is at best a misguided-villain-archetype, Superman is a boy scout with no real complexity whatsoever, and I wouldn't pay money to see a movie featuring both of them. You liked it. Subjective, see? Great. Talk about what you liked about it. Disagree with other people. Calling your personal experience and opinion of it "objective" is mistakenly wrong at best, actively dishonest at worst.
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
Congratulations you've established that I wasn't in every screening the in the movie world wide, in other news water is wet and rocks are dull.Terralthra wrote:There are lots of things to talk about with regard to objective things about movies. This site was founded on analysis of evidence directly from movies, for example. However, unless you're omnipresent or omniscient, you are talking out of your ass if you think you know whether the majority of watchers of the movie found a particular joke funny. You've seen the movie...once? Twice? You know at most the opinions of some portion of a few hundred people. You found it funny. I'm happy for you. Some people in your theatre(s) found it funny. I'm happy for them, too.
And you know, if you would just talk about your experience instead of bloviating, overassuming, and misusing common words, I'd pretty much stay out of this slapfight. I think Batman is at best a misguided-villain-archetype, Superman is a boy scout with no real complexity whatsoever, and I wouldn't pay money to see a movie featuring both of them. You liked it. Subjective, see? Great. Talk about what you liked about it. Disagree with other people. Calling your personal experience and opinion of it "objective" is mistakenly wrong at best, actively dishonest at worst.
Let me repeat myself; Whether person A or B like something X or Y is subjective, true. Whether something X or Y worked in eliciting the desired response from persons A or B can be measured objectively. Was something X intended to make people laugh? Yes. Did people laugh? Yes. Ergo, objectively it worked. It doesn't mean that everyone has to laugh in order for it to work just a majority.
Notice the key word? I've seen it twice, both times that joke got an audible laugh from the audience. You can measure something subjective to get an objective analysis out of it.
Maybe you should stop being such a little semantics whore before you go and derail a thread?
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
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Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
Oh, man, are you hilarious. Rather than say "oh I guess I misused objectively, mb", you have now tripled down on your "objective measurement" of the "majority" of the audience in your theatre. Sure thing. How many people were in the audience? How many laughed? How many thought it was amusing but didn't laugh? How many laughed because of social pressure (conformal laughter)? How did you calculate the latter numbers?
Is your self-worth so tied into being right all the time that you'd rather make an ass of yourself on a minor scifi analysis forum than just admit you used a word wrongly?
Is your self-worth so tied into being right all the time that you'd rather make an ass of yourself on a minor scifi analysis forum than just admit you used a word wrongly?
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
People can tell when a majority of a group respond to something without having to break down all the data, much the same way we can distinguish between hot or cold water being poured just by the sound. We don't need to define the temperature range of 'hot' or 'cold'. And conformal laughter would be an indicator in my benefit no? If people were 'joining in' to not feel 'left out' they were moderating their behaviour to be part of the majority.Terralthra wrote:Oh, man, are you hilarious. Rather than say "oh I guess I misused objectively, mb", you have now tripled down on your "objective measurement" of the "majority" of the audience in your theatre. Sure thing. How many people were in the audience? How many laughed? How many thought it was amusing but didn't laugh? How many laughed because of social pressure (conformal laughter)? How did you calculate the latter numbers?
Congratulations on trying to be clever and fucking up.
But more importantly; you agree with me, right? We can indeed objectively measure a subjective response/experience right? You're just disagreeing that I managed to do that, correct? So in essence, I wasn't misusing 'common words' like you accused me of, you're just wasting my time now, right?
Terralthra wrote:Is your self-worth so tied into being right all the time that you'd rather make an ass of yourself on a minor scifi analysis forum than just admit you used a word wrongly?
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
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Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
People frequently think they can accurately gauge the majority of a group's response, but are very usually wrong. This applies both to your feeling of how many people were laughing and to any particular person laughing conformally. For example, extensive studies of the breakdown in speech in mixed-gender groups found that men perceived a group discussion as having roughly equal contribution from men and women when it actually was 85% men talking, 15% women talking. The massive disparity between reality and perception is why when people want to measure things objectively, they, y'know, actually measure them instead of giving their feelings.Crown wrote:People can tell when a majority of a group respond to something without having to break down all the data, much the same way we can distinguish between hot or cold water being poured just by the sound. We don't need to define the temperature range of 'hot' or 'cold'. And conformal laughter would be an indicator in my benefit no? If people were 'joining in' to not feel 'left out' they were moderating their behaviour to be part of the majority.Terralthra wrote:Oh, man, are you hilarious. Rather than say "oh I guess I misused objectively, mb", you have now tripled down on your "objective measurement" of the "majority" of the audience in your theatre. Sure thing. How many people were in the audience? How many laughed? How many thought it was amusing but didn't laugh? How many laughed because of social pressure (conformal laughter)? How did you calculate the latter numbers?
One of us certainly has.Crown wrote:Congratulations on trying to be clever and fucking up.
We can. You didn't. You misused the word because you said a joke "objectively worked", when it subjectively worked. You can't give your impression of how many people you think might've laughed in one theatre and call that "objective". That has been my point, like, all along.Crown wrote:But more importantly; you agree with me, right? We can indeed objectively measure a subjective response/experience right? You're just disagreeing that I managed to do that, correct? So in essence, I wasn't misusing 'common words' like you accused me of, you're just wasting my time now, right?
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
The possibility of me being wrong does not automatically invalidate the reported observation. You can be sceptical and cynical about it, power to you.Terralthra wrote:People frequently think they can accurately gauge the majority of a group's response, but are very usually wrong. This applies both to your feeling of how many people were laughing and to any particular person laughing conformally. For example, extensive studies of the breakdown in speech in mixed-gender groups found that men perceived a group discussion as having roughly equal contribution from men and women when it actually was 85% men talking, 15% women talking. The massive disparity between reality and perception is why when people want to measure things objectively, they, y'know, actually measure them instead of giving their feelings.Crown wrote:People can tell when a majority of a group respond to something without having to break down all the data, much the same way we can distinguish between hot or cold water being poured just by the sound. We don't need to define the temperature range of 'hot' or 'cold'. And conformal laughter would be an indicator in my benefit no? If people were 'joining in' to not feel 'left out' they were moderating their behaviour to be part of the majority.
Yes, that would be you. You wanted me to tell you how many people were laughing along only because they were joining in with other people laughing ... think about it.Terralthra wrote:One of us certainly has.Crown wrote:Congratulations on trying to be clever and fucking up.
You have no evidence to show that it only subjectively worked. All you've done is insert an element of doubt. Grats.Terralthra wrote:We can. You didn't. You misused the word because you said a joke "objectively worked", when it subjectively worked. You can't give your impression of how many people you think might've laughed in one theatre and call that "objective". That has been my point, like, all along.Crown wrote:But more importantly; you agree with me, right? We can indeed objectively measure a subjective response/experience right? You're just disagreeing that I managed to do that, correct? So in essence, I wasn't misusing 'common words' like you accused me of, you're just wasting my time now, right?
Tell me; when I say I was at Craven Cottage and the entire away end crowd erupted when Luis Suarez scored a goal do you pipe up and say; how do you know it was the away end entire crowd? How many were there? What percentage of people were just faking it? You've nitpicked and engaged in semantic sophistry on a level well beyond what could be reasonably expected given the subject matter. What's your beef? Are you thinking I'm engaging in outright lying or have outwitted myself with confirmation bias in order to win a petty argument over the merits of a line in a movie online?
Here, let me help you; people were laughing during SW:TFA and Avengers AoU. I was bored during both. But I can't deny that the majority of the audience was enjoying the writing and humour of both movies when I was sitting in the audience.
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
This is the second time you've missed the point. I'm not talking about jokes, I'm talking about the glue that holds a story together. If people laughed at the line, good. But you have two choices at that point: to take advantage of the fact that you got people thinking about what Clark Kent gets up to to smoothly transition to your scene about what Clark Kent is up to, or to jump to something else.Crown wrote:The problem exists only in your own mind. People laughed at that scene - out loud - in the cinema, the joke objectively worked. Further, using that joke as the introduction to the Martha/Clark farm scene would have cheapened what was an emotional moment between a mother and her son. She was confessing to Clark that she never wanted to share him with the rest of the world just as he was being painted as a killer, a monster and a threat.
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
It is pretty jarring to set up such an obvious scene transition line and then not do the scene transition - I'm not sure if it was deliberate or just sloppy editing.
I was never going to like this film given that I hated Man of Steel's interpretation of Superman, dislike Snyder's approach to film making in general, and am soooo bored of gritty fascistic Frank Miller Batman by this point. The best I can say is that it's not as bad as the 30% on Rotten Tomatoes would suggest.
I was never going to like this film given that I hated Man of Steel's interpretation of Superman, dislike Snyder's approach to film making in general, and am soooo bored of gritty fascistic Frank Miller Batman by this point. The best I can say is that it's not as bad as the 30% on Rotten Tomatoes would suggest.
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
I don't know what you people are bitching about, but I thought this movie was pretty swell. I mean if you're down to the level of whining over "they didn't cut to Clark when Perry White made a reference about him" then you're really reaching for shit to be complaining about.
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
No, we are complaining about the editing of the movie making zero sense. Every scene has little impact on the next scene.RogueIce wrote:I don't know what you people are bitching about, but I thought this movie was pretty swell. I mean if you're down to the level of whining over "they didn't cut to Clark when Perry White made a reference about him" then you're really reaching for shit to be complaining about.
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Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
So I came back from seeing it just now.
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Overall, I really enjoyed it even if I thought the first hour dragged after a very excellent opening sequence, and I definitely enjoyed it more than Age of Ultron. I'm looking forward to the next one of these!
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
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"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
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-Jean-Luc Picard
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
If you say so? I never felt especially lost by anything (except once*), and as noted before I didn't see Man of Steel.ray245 wrote:No, we are complaining about the editing of the movie making zero sense. Every scene has little impact on the next scene.
*That one scene where Superman is dragging some massive object on the ice. Can't remember what the deal was with that. Pretty minor though.
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That's what made him take his little mountain journey and speak to Pa Kent's Force Ghost or whatever. And him internalizing the whole "maybe I didn't want to save them" scene with Lois. It did matter and wasn't forgotten about.
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
SpoilerRogueIce wrote:If you say so? I never felt especially lost by anything (except once*), and as noted before I didn't see Man of Steel./spoiler]ray245 wrote:No, we are complaining about the editing of the movie making zero sense. Every scene has little impact on the next scene.
Well, given there's a good number of people were saying the same thing as I did, at least half of the audience were confused. Moreover, I think those that weren't confused are probably filling in the blanks as opposed to looking at the movie for what it is.
Spoiler
But those scenes have so little consequences that we might as well ignore them altogether. SpoilerSpoiler
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
Well, that is definately not the case at all.ray245 wrote:The movie is probably going to bomb at the box office, in the sense that it could not generate sufficient profits.
As for your post above, which is all broken - and to be fair I broke the shit out of mine as well - I don't really agree. I mean, it affected Superman, which is who we care about. And there were people very much afraid of Superman, especially the dude who lost his legs. I mean yeah he had an overall hero/hope thing going on too, but I didn't watch MoS so it might make sense with how that ended, or not. I can't fairly judge that though so I'll let that tangent go.
As for the future Batman thing, that was clearly a dream sequence, as we discovered. And Flash trying to warn Batman of something. TBH it was more like a Marvel post-credits stinger but they put it in the middle of the movie because I guess Nolan doesn't believe in doing those. Anyway, it's obviously laying groundwork for future films. This is not a negative.
Anyway can you please not use spoiler tags or at least don't stick them after a quote box? We all know they're broken and it's kind of annoying having to quote your post just to see what you're saying.
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
There's been a number of media sources saying this movie needs to make close to a billion just to see any reasonable profit because of its budget and marketing.RogueIce wrote:Well, that is definately not the case at all.ray245 wrote:The movie is probably going to bomb at the box office, in the sense that it could not generate sufficient profits.
I say that how it affected the common people matter just as much as the protagonist, especially in a Superhero movie. The biggest mistake of any Superhero film is to ignore the lives of the common joe.As for your post above, which is all broken - and to be fair I broke the shit out of mine as well - I don't really agree. I mean, it affected Superman, which is who we care about. And there were people very much afraid of Superman, especially the dude who lost his legs. I mean yeah he had an overall hero/hope thing going on too, but I didn't watch MoS so it might make sense with how that ended, or not. I can't fairly judge that though so I'll let that tangent go.
And it's not Superman that people should be afraid off. It's the fact that a businessman could easily blow up the Senate on his whim that should scare people. You can't make a scene like this and ignore the consequences.
I don't have a problem with the scene itself if that's what you are wondering. My problem is how the scene was placed in the movie. There's no establishing shot or anything that helps the audience to understand that this is a dream sequence. Everyone around me was confused by that scene, especially when Flash pops out.As for the future Batman thing, that was clearly a dream sequence, as we discovered. And Flash trying to warn Batman of something. TBH it was more like a Marvel post-credits stinger but they put it in the middle of the movie because I guess Nolan doesn't believe in doing those. Anyway, it's obviously laying groundwork for future films. This is not a negative.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
SPOILER TAGS BREAK SO JUST CONSIDER ALL THIS POST SPOILERISH
If this was a Superman movie I would agree with you, it should have been explored further, but it's not. This movie had so much to do that it had move forward. But to say it was 'forgotten' isn't correct at all.
That scene caused Clark to have a crisis re-examining if he should be 'The Superman' or not. He admitted to Lois that he was doing this out of some promise/guilt to his now dead father, and he wasn't certain if he didn't see the bomb because it was shielded or he didn't even look for it or maybe he didn't want to see the bomb at all which makes it even worse. I mean you didn't see the pain in his face when we cut to inside the blast radius and he's just looking like his about to die of regret? Further we have the CNN anchor telling us that the initial investigation is showing that Wally was the bomber, we have the scene with him and Lois on the balcony, the scene with him imagining/talking with his father on the mountain, the scene with Perry, Lois and Jenny where Jenny is reading out loud that 'we (the public) are left to wonder wether Superman knew about the bomb, and did nothing, or was unaware of it showing he is fallible' from the article they're going to run in the Daily Planet.ray245 wrote:Take the scene where the senate building was blown up. This was forgotten about very quickly.
If this was a Superman movie I would agree with you, it should have been explored further, but it's not. This movie had so much to do that it had move forward. But to say it was 'forgotten' isn't correct at all.
See above. I think in an earlier post you mentioned that this movie should have been 4 or 5 different movies (or you felt it was like 4 or 5 crammed into one). And honestly I agree with that assessment. It just doesn't bother me, because frankly I felt for what this movie was set up to do (build the DC Cinematic Universe), it did much better than I could have hoped for.ray245 wrote:The Senate and a number of important government officials were killed in a terrorist attack and no one in the public seems scared about it? The world seems to move on too easily from this, just like how they somehow managed to move on from an attack which killed thousands of people in Metropolis.
Look at how TDK deals with scenes where government officials were killed off. You show the consequences of the event to the average citizens of Gotham. You showed how bad things is going.
It has a < 30% critic rating on Rotten Tomatoes and has beaten every single other opening weekend WB have ever had, ever. It's pulled in just under half a billion dollars and there are still two more days of the Easter long weekend. It's doing fine.ray245 wrote:There's been a number of media sources saying this movie needs to make close to a billion just to see any reasonable profit because of its budget and marketing.
That was part of the montage of Superman doing Superman things; saving the girl from the fire during the Day of the Dead celebrations, rescuing people stuck on their roofs during a flood and dragging a capsized ice breaker to safety. This was all going on while we had political, religious/philosophical and scientific leaders discussing the question of how does the world react to a Superman, and what should his role be.RogueIce wrote:*That one scene where Superman is dragging some massive object on the ice. Can't remember what the deal was with that. Pretty minor though.
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
I just want to put down some of the things I really, really loved about this movie. So consider there to be spoilers from this point on ward.
The Acting
I was just so made up with the performances in this movie, right from the opening credit sequence (which I'll talk about again later) until the ending I was just amazed at how all the actors were delivering. I was petrified about Gal Gadot, but she was amazing. I was in the wait and judge after camp for Batfleck, so to see him deliver was especially gratifying. Jeremy Irons, Lawrence Fishburn and Diane Lane were fantastic and Holy Hunter took a role and delivered such nuance in her scenes with Charlie Rose, Jesse and the senate hearings just a true pleasure and well done on them nabbing her for this role.
Now Jesse was the one I really, and I mean really was petrified about before seeing the movie. I mean I just did not see him as Lex. And strangely his performance is one that seems to divide critics. Some praise him for his performance others are deriding him for basically being Mark Zuckerberg in the movie. There were two things which I 'latched on to' which helped me like his performance. The first, a subtle hint that this isn't 'Lex' Lex. When we're first introduced to him one of the Senator's refer's to him as "the man whose name is on parapet" - but he quickly corrects the Senator by saying that the company was named by his father, and that his father is the Lex in LexCorp. In the DC universe Lex's father is Lionel Luthor, so perhaps Jesse is Lex Luthor Jnr? The other was the scene between Lex and Superman on top of Lex Tower. The sheer manic vindictiveness of Lex in this scene really helped me get on board with Jesse.
The Batfleck
Well fucking done Ben. He showed up all the haters in this movie. I love that Snyder gave us a post "Death in the Family" and essentially a broken Batman. This guy is off his game and damaged by his history. He makes up for it with sheer brutality. Thank God. If I had to see another Batman which is just the same as all the others I would have been bored. You believe that this Batman will not only want to kill Superman, but that he will actually feel it's the correct thing to do. Also his brutality is a valid reason for Superman to be interested in stopping him.
Lois and Clark
I'm not going to lie about this; I'm a shipper and thank God Amy and Henry can act, because they have only a few scenes to sell us that they are involved and they do. Adams is such a gifted actress, and I was worried that WB were going to drop the ball by not featuring her a lot in this movie (especially going off the trailers) thankfully she had her moments in this movie - some you have to concede were damsel in distress tropes, but also you can see that she is a fierce investigator who gets a hold of a story and digs. Cavill has so much 'acting' to do, with such little script but he made me believe the character's turmoil, frustration and fear. You believe that he will legitimately lose his shit if Lois or Martha are killed (more on this later).
However, for the sake of these two we desperately need a stand alone Superman movie. MoS was the introduction of this Superman, how he is a loner and apart from his parent(s) untethered to humanity until Lois. I liked that during MoS he didn't really know what to do, and I like that during BvS he is still struggling with it. But for the love of Rao can we please, please WB get a stand alone movie for these guys? I don't expect this to end a certain way (i.e. classic boy scout Superman), but I just want a movie of them.
The Opening Credits
When I saw the trailers and we saw yet another Batman origin story I was dismayed. Like I find it hard to believe that there is a human being on the planet that could possibly not know who Batman is and why he became who he did. Thankfully Snyder just did it - beautifully - as an opening credit scene. It was surreal, dramatic and touching all at once. And I appreciated how it served a vital point in stopping Batfleck's bloodlust later in the movie. I've been a Superman and Batman fan for over 20 years now, and it never even occurred to me that Bruce's and Clark's mothers share the same name so I was just as shocked as Batfleck during that moment. Well done, well fucking done.
As an aside; Jeffery Dean Morgan plays Thomas Wayne and Lauren Cohan is playing Martha Wayne. JDM is about to appear as Negan in the Walking Dead, and Lauren is playing Maggie so this could be interesting But if WB ever wanted to do a Flashpoint Paradox story, they've just gut to amazing people to play these roles. Fantastic foresight if they do.
And then these credits lead directly into Batfleck's perspective of the battle of Metropolis. What a way to get the heart going. And what a way to use all the (moronic) criticism of the destruction during MoS as a catalyst for one of your protagonists' action.
The DC Easter Eggs
We had the Flash travelling back through time, which automatically sets up the possibility of a Flashpoint paradox type of story (as mentioned above) and the Knightmare scene where we get a setup for Darkseid with a possible Injustice Gods Among Us tie in. I loved that this Superman has a real chance of losing his mind if anything happens to Lois (as per Flash's warning; "Bruce, Bruce ! Listen to me right now ! Lois ! Lois Lane, she is the key, am i too soon ? I'm too soon ! You were right about him, you always have been right about him ! Fear him ! Find us Bruce ! You have to find us !") or Martha (he was ready to roast Lex on that roof). I loved Diana's line "I've killed things from other worlds before." We talking about the new God's maybe?
The Trinity on the Big Screen - Wonder Woman Specifically
I've mentioned this before; seeing these three on the big screen for the first time gave me a feeling of wish fulfilment I never thought I could have as an adult. I thought that kind of reaction dies off in later teenage years. To actually get me grinning from ear to ear when they're all on screen together since I'm a miserable, cynical old bastard is no small thing. The fact that Wonder Woman was such a good fighter was just boss. I love the way she was cutting up Doomsday. You get the impression that it was a war of attrition between these two. Doomsday more raw power, but she had the nous and skills to damage him.
I'm okay with her being slightly de-powered (no flight) so to make her and Superman more distinct, but I think some people aren't too hyped about it.
The Senate Hearing Scene
So much going on here that I loved.
I love that this was being set up early; the discussion over Superman's actions and his (lack of) accountability. The constant discussions in the background over how the appearance of a Superman has caused a shift in all of our understanding with our place in our world. The quandary of the political elite on how to control someone that powerful without it all blowing up in their face. The machinations of Lex to further degrade Superman's image and to remove those who oppose him and his vision.
I did not believe that Lex would sacrifice Mercy, so I was shocked when I realised at the same moment as Senator Finch that the room was about to blow. As she was talking, giving her spiel of how they govern with the consent of the governed (unlike Superman who is a law onto himself), and how 'this committee' will not tolerate shadow interventions she spots the jar of tea on her desk. She is flustered and loses some of her composure. She covers a little, but the jar has something written on it and she turns it to reveal a hand written label "Granny's Peach Tea".
It was at that moment she knew she was about to die. But even if she wasn't it was a master stroke of Lex. She had just begun by berating Superman for doing Superman things. Imagine if she had lost her composure and yelled for him to help but there had been no threat? She gets discredited and one of Lex's pet Senators will destroy her politically.
For those who don't get the connection; Lex wanted Finch to give him an import license for the Kryptonite - under the guise of him weaponising it as a deterrent, but she blocks it and when she informs Lex the exchange goes something like this;
Lex: May I call June?
Senator June Finch: You can call me what you like. You can take a bucket of piss and call it "Granny's Peach Tea". You can call a weapon of assassination a deterrent for all I care. You won't fool fly or me; I won't drink it.
And then just before the hearing begins Lex greets her outside the room by saying; "You're going to be in the hot seat tonight June-bug."
Brilliant. Fucking brilliant.
The Action/Fight Scenes
I'm just going to echo everything that Guardsman Bass said; just fantastic. During MoS I was a little 'fight fatigued' in the battle between Zod and Superman. I like it more now than I did then, but I was drained at that point in the movie the first time I saw it. With this one, that wasn't the case at all. Even though it was longer than anything in MoS. We went from Batman vs Superman, to Batfleck saving Martha to the climax of the Trinity vs Doomsday. And I was engaged during the whole thing. That is no small feat.
Each of these set pieces was done with such fantastic (and this is a pretty ridiculous word to use but go with it) "realism" that I was buying it (in the context of this movie).
The Music
I was listening to the soundtrack the week leading up to the release of the movie, and I've got to say there were moments where I was like "how in the hell is this going to fit in the movie?". But foolish me for doubting, Hans Zimmer hit it out of the park again.
The Death
I did not believe that WB would actually do it - I didn't think they had the balls, but they did. And while I have to admit that I wish they hadn't actually done it (more on this later) I have to acknowledge that it was done so fucking well. People were either in shock or crying. The funeral scene you feel the weight of what is going on, the loss that the main characters feel and what society at large feels. While comic reader's knew that having Doomsday meant that this was the possibility, lay-people were completely gob smacked.
Changes That Could Have Made it 'Better'
Again; I love this movie, but given some of the reactions online and the well documented critical response; I can't pretend that it's perfect and there are some 'suggestions' which could have possibly helped this movie;
The Acting
I was just so made up with the performances in this movie, right from the opening credit sequence (which I'll talk about again later) until the ending I was just amazed at how all the actors were delivering. I was petrified about Gal Gadot, but she was amazing. I was in the wait and judge after camp for Batfleck, so to see him deliver was especially gratifying. Jeremy Irons, Lawrence Fishburn and Diane Lane were fantastic and Holy Hunter took a role and delivered such nuance in her scenes with Charlie Rose, Jesse and the senate hearings just a true pleasure and well done on them nabbing her for this role.
Now Jesse was the one I really, and I mean really was petrified about before seeing the movie. I mean I just did not see him as Lex. And strangely his performance is one that seems to divide critics. Some praise him for his performance others are deriding him for basically being Mark Zuckerberg in the movie. There were two things which I 'latched on to' which helped me like his performance. The first, a subtle hint that this isn't 'Lex' Lex. When we're first introduced to him one of the Senator's refer's to him as "the man whose name is on parapet" - but he quickly corrects the Senator by saying that the company was named by his father, and that his father is the Lex in LexCorp. In the DC universe Lex's father is Lionel Luthor, so perhaps Jesse is Lex Luthor Jnr? The other was the scene between Lex and Superman on top of Lex Tower. The sheer manic vindictiveness of Lex in this scene really helped me get on board with Jesse.
The Batfleck
Well fucking done Ben. He showed up all the haters in this movie. I love that Snyder gave us a post "Death in the Family" and essentially a broken Batman. This guy is off his game and damaged by his history. He makes up for it with sheer brutality. Thank God. If I had to see another Batman which is just the same as all the others I would have been bored. You believe that this Batman will not only want to kill Superman, but that he will actually feel it's the correct thing to do. Also his brutality is a valid reason for Superman to be interested in stopping him.
Lois and Clark
I'm not going to lie about this; I'm a shipper and thank God Amy and Henry can act, because they have only a few scenes to sell us that they are involved and they do. Adams is such a gifted actress, and I was worried that WB were going to drop the ball by not featuring her a lot in this movie (especially going off the trailers) thankfully she had her moments in this movie - some you have to concede were damsel in distress tropes, but also you can see that she is a fierce investigator who gets a hold of a story and digs. Cavill has so much 'acting' to do, with such little script but he made me believe the character's turmoil, frustration and fear. You believe that he will legitimately lose his shit if Lois or Martha are killed (more on this later).
However, for the sake of these two we desperately need a stand alone Superman movie. MoS was the introduction of this Superman, how he is a loner and apart from his parent(s) untethered to humanity until Lois. I liked that during MoS he didn't really know what to do, and I like that during BvS he is still struggling with it. But for the love of Rao can we please, please WB get a stand alone movie for these guys? I don't expect this to end a certain way (i.e. classic boy scout Superman), but I just want a movie of them.
The Opening Credits
When I saw the trailers and we saw yet another Batman origin story I was dismayed. Like I find it hard to believe that there is a human being on the planet that could possibly not know who Batman is and why he became who he did. Thankfully Snyder just did it - beautifully - as an opening credit scene. It was surreal, dramatic and touching all at once. And I appreciated how it served a vital point in stopping Batfleck's bloodlust later in the movie. I've been a Superman and Batman fan for over 20 years now, and it never even occurred to me that Bruce's and Clark's mothers share the same name so I was just as shocked as Batfleck during that moment. Well done, well fucking done.
As an aside; Jeffery Dean Morgan plays Thomas Wayne and Lauren Cohan is playing Martha Wayne. JDM is about to appear as Negan in the Walking Dead, and Lauren is playing Maggie so this could be interesting But if WB ever wanted to do a Flashpoint Paradox story, they've just gut to amazing people to play these roles. Fantastic foresight if they do.
And then these credits lead directly into Batfleck's perspective of the battle of Metropolis. What a way to get the heart going. And what a way to use all the (moronic) criticism of the destruction during MoS as a catalyst for one of your protagonists' action.
The DC Easter Eggs
We had the Flash travelling back through time, which automatically sets up the possibility of a Flashpoint paradox type of story (as mentioned above) and the Knightmare scene where we get a setup for Darkseid with a possible Injustice Gods Among Us tie in. I loved that this Superman has a real chance of losing his mind if anything happens to Lois (as per Flash's warning; "Bruce, Bruce ! Listen to me right now ! Lois ! Lois Lane, she is the key, am i too soon ? I'm too soon ! You were right about him, you always have been right about him ! Fear him ! Find us Bruce ! You have to find us !") or Martha (he was ready to roast Lex on that roof). I loved Diana's line "I've killed things from other worlds before." We talking about the new God's maybe?
The Trinity on the Big Screen - Wonder Woman Specifically
I've mentioned this before; seeing these three on the big screen for the first time gave me a feeling of wish fulfilment I never thought I could have as an adult. I thought that kind of reaction dies off in later teenage years. To actually get me grinning from ear to ear when they're all on screen together since I'm a miserable, cynical old bastard is no small thing. The fact that Wonder Woman was such a good fighter was just boss. I love the way she was cutting up Doomsday. You get the impression that it was a war of attrition between these two. Doomsday more raw power, but she had the nous and skills to damage him.
I'm okay with her being slightly de-powered (no flight) so to make her and Superman more distinct, but I think some people aren't too hyped about it.
The Senate Hearing Scene
So much going on here that I loved.
I love that this was being set up early; the discussion over Superman's actions and his (lack of) accountability. The constant discussions in the background over how the appearance of a Superman has caused a shift in all of our understanding with our place in our world. The quandary of the political elite on how to control someone that powerful without it all blowing up in their face. The machinations of Lex to further degrade Superman's image and to remove those who oppose him and his vision.
I did not believe that Lex would sacrifice Mercy, so I was shocked when I realised at the same moment as Senator Finch that the room was about to blow. As she was talking, giving her spiel of how they govern with the consent of the governed (unlike Superman who is a law onto himself), and how 'this committee' will not tolerate shadow interventions she spots the jar of tea on her desk. She is flustered and loses some of her composure. She covers a little, but the jar has something written on it and she turns it to reveal a hand written label "Granny's Peach Tea".
It was at that moment she knew she was about to die. But even if she wasn't it was a master stroke of Lex. She had just begun by berating Superman for doing Superman things. Imagine if she had lost her composure and yelled for him to help but there had been no threat? She gets discredited and one of Lex's pet Senators will destroy her politically.
For those who don't get the connection; Lex wanted Finch to give him an import license for the Kryptonite - under the guise of him weaponising it as a deterrent, but she blocks it and when she informs Lex the exchange goes something like this;
Lex: May I call June?
Senator June Finch: You can call me what you like. You can take a bucket of piss and call it "Granny's Peach Tea". You can call a weapon of assassination a deterrent for all I care. You won't fool fly or me; I won't drink it.
And then just before the hearing begins Lex greets her outside the room by saying; "You're going to be in the hot seat tonight June-bug."
Brilliant. Fucking brilliant.
The Action/Fight Scenes
I'm just going to echo everything that Guardsman Bass said; just fantastic. During MoS I was a little 'fight fatigued' in the battle between Zod and Superman. I like it more now than I did then, but I was drained at that point in the movie the first time I saw it. With this one, that wasn't the case at all. Even though it was longer than anything in MoS. We went from Batman vs Superman, to Batfleck saving Martha to the climax of the Trinity vs Doomsday. And I was engaged during the whole thing. That is no small feat.
Each of these set pieces was done with such fantastic (and this is a pretty ridiculous word to use but go with it) "realism" that I was buying it (in the context of this movie).
The Music
I was listening to the soundtrack the week leading up to the release of the movie, and I've got to say there were moments where I was like "how in the hell is this going to fit in the movie?". But foolish me for doubting, Hans Zimmer hit it out of the park again.
The Death
I did not believe that WB would actually do it - I didn't think they had the balls, but they did. And while I have to admit that I wish they hadn't actually done it (more on this later) I have to acknowledge that it was done so fucking well. People were either in shock or crying. The funeral scene you feel the weight of what is going on, the loss that the main characters feel and what society at large feels. While comic reader's knew that having Doomsday meant that this was the possibility, lay-people were completely gob smacked.
Changes That Could Have Made it 'Better'
Again; I love this movie, but given some of the reactions online and the well documented critical response; I can't pretend that it's perfect and there are some 'suggestions' which could have possibly helped this movie;
- Split the movie in two. A lot of the criticism is rightly pointing out about how much is going on. This movie was trying to be too many things in too short a time. Splitting it in two one the first half coming out now and the second in the Autumn would have helped immensely
- The 'cameos' of Cyborg, Aquaman and the Flash are getting a lot of hate as being 'forced'. I myself didn't mind it at all, but everyone seems to be hating these a lot. If you split this movie in two you can do a better introduction of the 'Meta-Human' hypothesis
- For me; maybe not Doomsday. Rather a Lex in his own power suite simply because I think the Doomsday storyline should have been in either a stand alone Superman movie or an actual Justice League movie. I think on some level we got robbed from the full impact of a fully developed and fleshed out Superman dying
- An actual Superman movie ... yes, now I'm just repeating myself
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Re: Batman v Superman - Official Thread
Why didn't you just put it in spoilers? They work if you select the entire body of text in the "full editor & preview" and click on the "spoiler" button.
As for the "Senate Hearing" scene, it was okay - but it came at the end of a bad story arc that dragged the entire movie to a crawl for an hour before it happened. And why the hell didn't Superman do anything in the room except stand there? He's going to hear the goddamn bomb start to go off before anyone else in the room, so he could literally jump on the guy and smother most of the explosion - or rip the wiring out of the bomb before it blows.
As for the "Senate Hearing" scene, it was okay - but it came at the end of a bad story arc that dragged the entire movie to a crawl for an hour before it happened. And why the hell didn't Superman do anything in the room except stand there? He's going to hear the goddamn bomb start to go off before anyone else in the room, so he could literally jump on the guy and smother most of the explosion - or rip the wiring out of the bomb before it blows.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
-Jean-Luc Picard
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood