Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Joun_Lord »

biostem wrote:Given the relative reliability of repulsorlift technology in Star Wars, why not just use tank equipped with them? I know that there are armed speeders, and at the very least, the CIS tanks would be a better match in this instance. The TIE Crawler is very poorly designed, and I wonder if it could even stand up to concentrated hand blaster fire...
I don't know bout the Crawler but the reasoning for the Juggarnaut and walkers I believe was that in certain environment repulsors didn't work. There was also supposed to be a limit on how much armor a repulsor vehicle could have without being unable to fly. There were flying tanks like the TX-130 Saber fight tank but it was extremely lightly armored, taking advantage of its repulsors to be highly maneuverable. The Snowspeeders were also repulsor craft and again were extremely lightly armed and armored. Even the AAT tank seemed to have incredibly thin armor.

Compare that to the much slower but also much more heavily armed and armored walkers.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by biostem »

Joun_Lord wrote:
biostem wrote:Given the relative reliability of repulsorlift technology in Star Wars, why not just use tank equipped with them? I know that there are armed speeders, and at the very least, the CIS tanks would be a better match in this instance. The TIE Crawler is very poorly designed, and I wonder if it could even stand up to concentrated hand blaster fire...
I don't know bout the Crawler but the reasoning for the Juggarnaut and walkers I believe was that in certain environment repulsors didn't work. There was also supposed to be a limit on how much armor a repulsor vehicle could have without being unable to fly. There were flying tanks like the TX-130 Saber fight tank but it was extremely lightly armored, taking advantage of its repulsors to be highly maneuverable. The Snowspeeders were also repulsor craft and again were extremely lightly armed and armored. Even the AAT tank seemed to have incredibly thin armor.

Compare that to the much slower but also much more heavily armed and armored walkers.

I don't know how much more massive the TIE Crawler is vs a regular TIE, but the CIS Droid tank seemed more massive, and it hovered...
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

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biostem wrote:I don't know how much more massive the TIE Crawler is vs a regular TIE, but the CIS Droid tank seemed more massive, and it hovered...
Like I said, I don't know about the reasoning behind the Crawler though I'm sure drugs were involved. The Crawler is just a terribly bad design whether it rolled or floated and didn't see to have logic behind it. It seems like mostly repulsor vehicles are light armored but high speed and/or highly maneuverable while ground vehicles are usually slower but highly armed and armored. The CIS Droid Tank, the AAT, seemed lightly armored but could move around pretty fast.

The TIE Crawler takes the worst aspects of both. Slow, lightly armored, lightly armed, and probably not very maneuverable.

Though the Juggarnaut is kinda different too, kinda the opposite of the TIE Crawler. It was supposed to be ridiculously well armed and armored but as demonstrated in Ep3 it was a fast bastard. Which kinda when against the earlier EU portrayals of it which always said it was extremely slow.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by biostem »

There was also that big wheeled tank thingy - though it appeared to have both a front and rear cockpit, (I think they explained that its turn radius was horrendous, so they would just reverse instead of turning around).
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

biostem wrote:There was also that big wheeled tank thingy - though it appeared to have both a front and rear cockpit, (I think they explained that its turn radius was horrendous, so they would just reverse instead of turning around).
That was the Juggernaut, or "rolling slab," originally introduced in the EU, and made its way into the Kashyyk scenes in Revenge Of the Sith. You're correct on the rationale behind the twin cockpits.

It was also notoriously high-maintenance, as I mentioned above.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

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Joun_Lord wrote:I don't know bout the Crawler but the reasoning for the Juggarnaut and walkers I believe was that in certain environment repulsors didn't work. There was also supposed to be a limit on how much armor a repulsor vehicle could have without being unable to fly. There were flying tanks like the TX-130 Saber fight tank but it was extremely lightly armored, taking advantage of its repulsors to be highly maneuverable. The Snowspeeders were also repulsor craft and again were extremely lightly armed and armored. Even the AAT tank seemed to have incredibly thin armor.

Compare that to the much slower but also much more heavily armed and armored walkers.
While that, and repulsor jammers, appear as excuses for the mecha in some things in the old EU, the Rebel company Yutrane-Trackata made some comparatively sane designs, such as the T3-B heavy tank, a track-equipped cross between a tank and a cruise missile TEL:
Image

It's supposed to fire beefy concussion missiles at AT-ATs and is immensely more practical than a walker, and obviously has ground contact. Presumably the Rebels won a lot of ground battles after Endor with these things.

Really only cultural factors can explain the mechas and rollytanks and things; I like to imagine that the thousand years of peace atropied knowledge of military design, and that the experience of building large scale droids like the construction bots on Coruscant is responsible for engineers preferring to make things like the AT-TE.

That, and the same spirit of invention that led to Stalin's spherical tank project.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Micro-Balrog »

I have just registered specifically to comment on this thread.

Here is what I believe is a logical take on this scenario:

1. Let us assume momentarily that the vehicles function more or less like vehicles IRL do, i.e. most major combat tasks are carried out by their crew, and the crew need to observe the battlefield either through some manner of openings in their vehicles, or through poking their head out (like the tank pilot in the first image is seen doing, and like the Leman Russ artwork implies by showing observation slits). That is to say, that there are no screen systems to replace the need for direct observation from the tanks.

2. Let us also assume more or less that both vehicles are capable of harming each other (otherwise this scenario makes no sense), and that what we know IRL about vehicles applies (i.,e. that the glass segments of the TIE tank cockpit are far more vulnerable than the metal bits - this is more or less backed up by the in-universe materials).

If these apply - I suspect they do apply, as the TIE pilot needs to climb out fully almost fully out of his vehicle hatch to see, as seen in the art in the first page - then what we have is this:

The TIE tank is much more agile than the Leman Russ (being capable of speeding at a 90 kph speed, much faster than most RL combat vehicle), while the Leman Russ is small. However it suffers from two problems that the Leman Russ does not suffer from:

1. It has a crew of only one person, woh is forced to both drive the tank, search for targets, and shoot the guns.
2. Because of how the tracks are laid out - the propulsion and the engines are located into bulky slab-like bodies to the left and right of the cockpit, extending higher and further to the front and rear than the cockpit - the TIE cannot see or shoot to its sides unless the pilot actually stops driving and climbs out out the hatch (and he can't just poke his head out - the treads are meaningfully taller than the hatch and he needs to see over them). To shoot at you, the TIE Tank needs to turn its glassy, vulnerable cockpit to face you.

The Leman Russ is slow, but unlike hte TIE tank, it contains the feature that actually makes tanks so mighty as war machines -it separates the combat tasks between several crewmembers, and positions the main armament in a 360-degree turret.

As the commander of the Leman Russ, I would therefore do much the same as what tank commanders do IRL - I would open the commander's hatch and start scanning the field for targets (or in saner people's terms, "looking around"), while giving instructions to the driver in his driver station (who cannot see as well as I do). Simultaneously, the sponsoon gunners would be ordered to constantly turn their sponsoons bakc and forth, scanning to the sides of the tank for targets. We would advance gradually through the airport, carefully positioning ourselves to make it harder for the enemy tank to sneak up on us (though not impossible completely).

In this situation, because of the TIE tank's limited field of sight and fire, it would be very hard for the TIE tank to spot the Leman Russ before either the Leman Russ' commander or the sponsoon gunners would spot him.

Should the LR commander spot the TIE tank he would obviously order the main gunner, and any other gunners that can bring weapons to bear, to open fire. This would probably be the end of the TIE tank. If the LR sponsoon gunners spot the TIE tank first, they would alert the rest of the crew and open fire - even if they are armed with the more low-key weapons, opening fire would at least make it dangerous for the TIE tank to turn its face towards the threat (As that would endanger its cockpit). Hopefully they're be able to penetrate. The only way for the TIE tank to kill the Leman Russ is -much like in RL tank combat - by seeing it first. Which is difficult, again, due to its dubious one-crewmember ergonomics and limited field of view.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Lord Revan »

Has there been any indication as to how durable the TIE tank is, I seem to remember reading that Leman Russ was rather sturdy By WH40K standards so IIRC taking one out isn't gonna be easy.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by biostem »

I believe that the TIE Crawler uses the same cockpit module as a standard TIE Fighter, though that doesn't tell us how it would stand up to handheld blasters. I can't imagine that snowspeeder blasters are that much weaker than, say, a X-Wing's, so it'll probably be able to be taken out by one.

The TIE Crawler is most likely a way of simply using existing parts in a different role, in order to keep costs down; Just slap on the tread modules and replace the fixed blasters with turreted ones.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

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biostem wrote:The TIE Crawler is most likely a way of simply using existing parts in a different role, in order to keep costs down; Just slap on the tread modules and replace the fixed blasters with turreted ones.
...Though to me, it seems that most of the mass of the fighter is moved into the treads. If the plan is to reuse existing TIE components and washouts, why not just put together more TIEs and restrict them to atmospheric combat? The frame isn't going to be any stronger, and you're already building a whole new set of things for the treads.

To me, this is one of the clearest examples of EU ridiculousness. I can see how someone came up with it and thought it was cool: I can simultaneously see how it's absolutely worthless as a tank. Not only does a Russ win, I suspect a single Space Marine with a bolter would win. Or just regular rebel fighters with heavy blasters. Or a couple of Ewoks with a rock and a stick - if they land on top, use the stick to pry the hatch and smash the pilot with the rock.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by biostem »

Me2005 wrote:
biostem wrote:The TIE Crawler is most likely a way of simply using existing parts in a different role, in order to keep costs down; Just slap on the tread modules and replace the fixed blasters with turreted ones.
...Though to me, it seems that most of the mass of the fighter is moved into the treads. If the plan is to reuse existing TIE components and washouts, why not just put together more TIEs and restrict them to atmospheric combat? The frame isn't going to be any stronger, and you're already building a whole new set of things for the treads.

To me, this is one of the clearest examples of EU ridiculousness. I can see how someone came up with it and thought it was cool: I can simultaneously see how it's absolutely worthless as a tank. Not only does a Russ win, I suspect a single Space Marine with a bolter would win. Or just regular rebel fighters with heavy blasters. Or a couple of Ewoks with a rock and a stick - if they land on top, use the stick to pry the hatch and smash the pilot with the rock.

Out of universe, I totally agree with you. In-universe, some Imperial officer or Sieinar exec was able to promote the idea, and probably pocked a nice sum to boot. As you pointed out, those treads probably require more material than the cockpit itself, (and possibly less if they just built a tank, since they wouldn't have to armor both sides of both tread units). Maybe they literally kitbashed some treads from some unseen vehicle onto the TIE cockpit?
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Simon_Jester »

Micro-Balrog wrote:If these apply - I suspect they do apply, as the TIE pilot needs to climb out fully almost fully out of his vehicle hatch to see, as seen in the art in the first page - then what we have is this:

The TIE tank is much more agile than the Leman Russ (being capable of speeding at a 90 kph speed, much faster than most RL combat vehicle), while the Leman Russ is small...
The Russ is indeed a smaller target; I'm not sure the TIE tank has greater 'agility.' 90 kilometers an hour is about 55 miles an hour, which isn't vastly greater than the road speed of typical modern armored vehicles on a paved surface (like starports with concrete pads). Moreover, the TIE tank's sheer physical size makes it harder to turn in confined spaces, and likely imposes a very large turning radius on the vehicle. Vehicles with treads have to turn carefully by nature; it's not as simple as turning a steering wheel, which is one of the main reasons bulldozer operators and the like have to be specially certified and trained.

So in many ways the Russ might well be the more 'agile' vehicle, in that it can turn tighter and go places the TIE tank can't, while being little or no slower in terms of straight-line speed.
1. It has a crew of only one person, woh is forced to both drive the tank, search for targets, and shoot the guns.
2. Because of how the tracks are laid out - the propulsion and the engines are located into bulky slab-like bodies to the left and right of the cockpit, extending higher and further to the front and rear than the cockpit - the TIE cannot see or shoot to its sides unless the pilot actually stops driving and climbs out out the hatch (and he can't just poke his head out - the treads are meaningfully taller than the hatch and he needs to see over them). To shoot at you, the TIE Tank needs to turn its glassy, vulnerable cockpit to face you.
You are very right to point this out.

For fighter aircraft with machine guns this strategy works, but mostly because the extreme mobility of fighter planes makes it impossible to shoot effectively except by pointing the whole plane at the target and flying straight toward it, so that the guy pulling the trigger has to be the same guy who has control of the plane's movement. Even there, a lot of fighters evolved towards the two-man model of pilot and weapons officer once radar and missiles appeared on the scene.

Another consequence of the issues you describe is that the TIE tank will have to expose much of its hull for an extended time when driving around a corner. Since it cannot fire to the sides, and its sides will necessarily be exposed as soon as it rounds the corner, there is a high risk of suffering a "mobility kill" when the TIE-tank eats a main gun round to the tracks as soon as it drives into the Russ's sights.
Should the LR commander spot the TIE tank he would obviously order the main gunner, and any other gunners that can bring weapons to bear, to open fire. This would probably be the end of the TIE tank. If the LR sponsoon gunners spot the TIE tank first, they would alert the rest of the crew and open fire - even if they are armed with the more low-key weapons, opening fire would at least make it dangerous for the TIE tank to turn its face towards the threat (As that would endanger its cockpit). Hopefully they're be able to penetrate. The only way for the TIE tank to kill the Leman Russ is -much like in RL tank combat - by seeing it first. Which is difficult, again, due to its dubious one-crewmember ergonomics and limited field of view.
Agreed. There are good reasons why in real life nobody designed one-man tank destroyers with fixed forward weapons and no view to the sides, though at least the TIE-tank's operator doesn't have to manually load shells into his own cannon the way a 20th century tank crew would.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Batman »

Um-why would the TIE tank have a large turning radius? It's a (abysmally designed, granted) tracked vehicle. It can turn on the spot (or at least it should be capable of doing so but given the basic stupidity of the idea who knows). Left track forward, right track back, pretty damned quick orientation change (it'll involve a lot of sideways drifting depending on mass and speed but changing the direction the vehicle is 'headed' doesn't really require much in the way of turn radius).
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Purple »

Batman wrote:Um-why would the TIE tank have a large turning radius? It's a (abysmally designed, granted) tracked vehicle. It can turn on the spot (or at least it should be capable of doing so but given the basic stupidity of the idea who knows). Left track forward, right track back, pretty damned quick orientation change (it'll involve a lot of sideways drifting depending on mass and speed but changing the direction the vehicle is 'headed' doesn't really require much in the way of turn radius).
That only works if it stops before turning. If you try and do it at speed you are liable to drift, throw a track or just generally suffer bad things. Especially if your vehicle is designed to be very light, boxy and have a horrible width to length ratio on the tracks.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Batman »

No it doesn't, hence the mention of drifting.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Purple »

Batman wrote:No it doesn't, hence the mention of drifting.
It's not about drifting. If you try and make too sharp a turn in a tracked vehicle at speed you'll end up throwing a track. That is to say the track will slip off the road wheels and you'll have to manually go out and fix it. And the odds of this increase dramatically if your vehicle is wider than its long, very wide to begin with and has narrow tracks. And if that happens the vehicle is basically dead because unlike on a modern tank its tracks have virtually no access point without dissembling the side covers. And fixing a thrown track can't be done by one man alone anyway.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Gunhead »

Track being thrown is a complete non issue in a fight taking place on essentially concrete and pavement. Disregarding incredible crew negligence or previous track damage, you cannot get a tracked vehicle to throw a track on flat pavement. Most likely case for thrown track is something big and hard gets stuck on the inside of the track, lifts a road wheel so high the stoppers meant to prevent the track from moving sideways go under the road wheel and the forward movement of the tank causes the next link to follow and so on. Both of the designs here are utter shit, but so shit they can throw a track on a hard flat surface?? Yea I don't think so.

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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Sidewinder »

Gunhead wrote:Track being thrown is a complete non issue in a fight taking place on essentially concrete and pavement. Disregarding incredible crew negligence or previous track damage, you cannot get a tracked vehicle to throw a track on flat pavement. Most likely case for thrown track is something big and hard gets stuck on the inside of the track, lifts a road wheel so high the stoppers meant to prevent the track from moving sideways go under the road wheel and the forward movement of the tank causes the next link to follow and so on. Both of the designs here are utter shit, but so shit they can throw a track on a hard flat surface?? Yea I don't think so.

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You assume the hard flat surface will remain a hard flat surface. What if battle damage- say a near-miss from the Leman Russ or the TIE Crawler's weapons- crater it?
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Micro-Balrog »

I don't know if I would want to be driving a tank at 90 kilometers per hour in a confined environment such as the build-up starport in the first post.

The limited vision field of tanks makes it sound like a recipe for disaster.

Also I think that it's fair to assume that if you have tanks fighting inside a starport, the startport is in a less-than-pristine shape.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Lord Revan »

hell the Leman Russ commander might even intentionally crater the surface to make the odds be more in his favor.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Patroklos »

I love how the century pick has a dude popping out of an armored hatch when he has a large window right in front of him.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Lord Revan »

I'd suspect thanks to the weapon being low on the ground and direct fire the TIE tank would have really low range since if you're not on surface that's 100% flat the guns are bound to hit hills or mounds on the terrain thus reducing the ranged and also the horizon would be a lot closer at essentially at the ground then 1-2m up in the air like with the Leman Russ. More importantly a space port would have things like fuel "barrels" or gargo crates that could block the TIE century from shooting while the Leman Russ could fire over them.
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by biostem »

Lord Revan wrote:I'd suspect thanks to the weapon being low on the ground and direct fire the TIE tank would have really low range since if you're not on surface that's 100% flat the guns are bound to hit hills or mounds on the terrain thus reducing the ranged and also the horizon would be a lot closer at essentially at the ground then 1-2m up in the air like with the Leman Russ. More importantly a space port would have things like fuel "barrels" or gargo crates that could block the TIE century from shooting while the Leman Russ could fire over them.

It's even worse, since the blaster that's on the turret is *under* the cockpit bubble - so it's even lower down. I just like to think that the only reason this abomination exists is because someone high up got a serious kickback...
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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Gunhead »

Sidewinder wrote: You assume the hard flat surface will remain a hard flat surface. What if battle damage- say a near-miss from the Leman Russ or the TIE Crawler's weapons- crater it?
The craters themselves are not a big deal in themselves, unless the crew is running with improperly tightened tracks and manage to "drop" the track into the crater and pivot the vehicle at the same time. Surface debris caused by weapons fire is unlikely to be big or hard enough cause serious issues, tanks are quite heavy and things stuck between the tracks and the road wheels tend to get crushed and I don't think the fight will last long enough for surface debris to become a major deciding issue.
Moreover, both vehicles have fairly similar track construction by the look of it with the road wheels and the drive mechanism encased which in this case would help shield them from loose debris.

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Re: Battle of the Questionable Tanks (40K vs SW)

Post by Simon_Jester »

Batman wrote:Um-why would the TIE tank have a large turning radius? It's a (abysmally designed, granted) tracked vehicle. It can turn on the spot (or at least it should be capable of doing so but given the basic stupidity of the idea who knows). Left track forward, right track back, pretty damned quick orientation change (it'll involve a lot of sideways drifting depending on mass and speed but changing the direction the vehicle is 'headed' doesn't really require much in the way of turn radius).
Yes; that's called a pivot steer. Not all armored vehicles are capable of doing a pivot steer; it depends on the transmission.

That said, I suspect that the motors to drive the tracks of a TIE tank are built into the outriggers and that there is NOT a mechanical driveshaft 'axle' connecting them to the central ball. In which case a TIE tank, specifically, should be able to do a pivot steer.

In any event, though, this does not permit the tank to peek around corners, and the idea of a tank drifting is frankly silly- you could throw tracks quite easily that way.
Gunhead wrote:
Sidewinder wrote: You assume the hard flat surface will remain a hard flat surface. What if battle damage- say a near-miss from the Leman Russ or the TIE Crawler's weapons- crater it?
The craters themselves are not a big deal in themselves, unless the crew is running with improperly tightened tracks and manage to "drop" the track into the crater and pivot the vehicle at the same time. Surface debris caused by weapons fire is unlikely to be big or hard enough cause serious issues, tanks are quite heavy and things stuck between the tracks and the road wheels tend to get crushed and I don't think the fight will last long enough for surface debris to become a major deciding issue.
Moreover, both vehicles have fairly similar track construction by the look of it with the road wheels and the drive mechanism encased which in this case would help shield them from loose debris.

-Gunhead
I will note that Bats was proposing that the TIE-tank driver try to pivot steer while moving at speed. While normal tank driving on a paved surface shouldn't cause anyone to throw a track, improbable maneuvers like that really should, I would think.
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