National Pride...

[Channel72]

I take the most pride in what I do, but I am "proud" to be Texan and American... and white, I guess. There's shit that comes with all 3, but I've never found myself saying "I wish I wasn't X." I HATE Texas sometimes. Now, more than ever because even out west, Houston has become a shit-show. But I honestly can't think of anywhere else I'd actually want to live.

New York has a similar sense of pride, etc. Except it doesn't suck as much as Texas. Also New York is objectively better because (A) our carbon footprint is lower, and (B) our electoral votes cancel out your stupid electoral votes, making everyone have to fight over Florida and Pennsylvania.

Patriotism in the modern nation-state sense certainly is engineered. If you don't actively educate people from childhood about the national ideals, national cohesion etc., they would not rise above mere tribalism just by themselves. And education is always controlled by the ruling class.

Tribalism, on the other hand, is a more naturally arising loyalty system. It comes from directly supported social contact in the small circle (tribe), which could be viewed as a very extended family.

To make one from the other, active government effort is required, even in city-states.

Yes but this is far from a modern phenomenon. Nationalism seems to be rooted in the very beginning of organized human civilization. City-state nationalism goes back to Sumeria at least, but I'm sure it was fostered in much earlier pre-cuneiform settlements (usually centered around worship of some local deity), and classical Greek city-state nationalism seems to rival even modern jingoism. And in a somewhat very generalized sense, the modern nation states of Europe are traceable to ancestral tribes (Franks, Celtics, Normans, etc.) The history of these various peoples today is even incorporated into the national identities of various European nations. In America, we created our own nationalistic narrative around a group of deified 18th century rebels.

Obviously, nationalism is purposefully cultivated or engineered to a large extent by self-interested governments, but it's also a natural extension of the tribal social contract you mention - i.e. the city-state protects you with walls and services, and in return you pay taxes and obey laws.

[TheFeniX]

I was right: That's even worse than having the Tetris song stuck in your head.

It's worse for me because, lyrics aside, I actually liked God Blessed Texas a lot. And I didn't even like country music at all when I was a kid. It's just this fun song with a good beat. It's totally ruined for me. Like when a song is played out on the radio in the first week of release except you're never given the opportunity to recover because it's been going on for 20 years.

Brace yourself for disappointment.

I don't travel much, but you meet a lot of people gaming online for 20 years. No one I've talked to deals with what a Texas kid deals with on this front. If they do, their country is probably on the news because it's brainwashing it's citizens. The one good thing to come from it is I can say "Texas" when asked "where you from?" and 90% of people from across the globe don't need a qualifier. I assume it's because so many Texans focus their crazy pride into the ball of psychic energy that even life in other solar systems would say "Earth, what's that? Oh, you mean that place where Texas is?"** I've seen The Alamo with John Wayne like.... 6 times or more and never in my own home. Always at school. I don't like John Wayne. My favorite western movie is Quick and the Dead. I would rather watch WIld Wild West than a damned John Wayne movie (please don't tell my dad).

My best friend and I get together sometimes to shoot the shit. We bag on Texas fucking constantly. Dick Perry. The school board. This, that, whatever. But here's how bad it is growing up here is:

New York has a similar sense of pride, etc. Except it doesn't suck as much as Texas. Also New York is objectively better because (A) our carbon footprint is lower, and (B) our electoral votes cancel out your stupid electoral votes, making everyone have to fight over Florida and Pennsylvania.

Reading that, I got one of those split second "eat shit motherfucker, I'll fight you" moments that fade away almost instantly and you feel kind of bad. Luckily, it was immediately overridden with a laugh about NEW YORK CITY? Get a rope...."

But if he made a crack about Americans, or white people, or whatever: I wouldn't even get that. But Texas man.... Texas gets in your head.

Sorry to hijack rant a National Pride thread, but it's so bad I laugh when I hear a Texan talking about North Korea and how they're evil for brain-washing their people. Texas is more like Best Korea than you think.

**Much more likely, Texas Crazy makes the international news so much because it's just what we do.

[Flagg]

I was born in Texas, too. It's why I'm 1/2 steer rectum. Damn near killed 'em.

[Elheru Aran]

There's a few states that are like that. Georgia is passing out of one of those periods, I think... depending on where you live (there is a distinct correlation with rural areas here), you can go into a gas station and see bumper stickers with the old state flag on them, novelty tags, etcetera. "Thank God I'm a Georgia Peach", bullshit like that. Neo-Confederate stuff is probably a bit more common now though since Sonny Perdue changed the flag to a less ridiculous design than Roy Barnes introduced, which was said to be the worst state flag design in the US at the time. People got a huge bug up their nose about how Perdue didn't go back to the original state flag though, which featured the Confederate battle flag. It's been like ten years now, they're starting to get over it.

[Raw Shark]

My favorite western movie is Quick and the Dead.

TQ & TD is... different... from other western movies. It contains a lot of the same elements, but it's highly-stylized in some specific ways and sort of functions as a takeoff and straight take on the genre in different ways at the same time. At the very least, it's a very genre-savvy film. They knew when they were observing convention, and when they were violating it.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

There's a few states that are like that. Georgia is passing out of one of those periods, I think... depending on where you live (there is a distinct correlation with rural areas here), you can go into a gas station and see bumper stickers with the old state flag on them, novelty tags, etcetera. "Thank God I'm a Georgia Peach", bullshit like that. Neo-Confederate stuff is probably a bit more common now though since Sonny Perdue changed the flag to a less ridiculous design than Roy Barnes introduced, which was said to be the worst state flag design in the US at the time. People got a huge bug up their nose about how Perdue didn't go back to the original state flag though, which featured the Confederate battle flag. It's been like ten years now, they're starting to get over it.

It didn't help how Barnes got his flag through the General Assembly. Ramrodding it through the legislature was the classic arrogance of the Atlanta politician writ large(and not his first display of such arrogance), and Barnes paid for that at the polls. At least Perdue put the decision up for a popular vote, which mitigated voter anger, since, well, they voted for the damn thing.

I initially didn't like the new flag, but 13 years down the road, I see that it is a better compromise, and a better design, than Barnes' banner had been. It encompasses pretty much Georgia's history and heritage, though they could have done without the "IN GOD WE TRUST" horseshit.

[Zeropoint]

State pride here in Oregon is a matter of trying to work out whether it's good or bad that the rest of the country forgets we exist.

I would say that I'm proud of humanity as a whole whenever it does something worthy of it, though.

Yep. There are no national borders above the Karman line.

[Flagg]

I'm like, an anti-nationalist. I don't believe in nationalism/patriotism/regionalism, or any of that shit. I'm for a one-world democratic federation based on the system that's worked best for the most democracies around the world, namely a parliamentary system. How to make it happen? Don't care, the sooner the better. Humans for humanity.

[Ralin]

Why?

Because it makes the point in a funny way.

[SolarpunkFan]

I'm like, an anti-nationalist. I don't believe in nationalism/patriotism/regionalism, or any of that shit. I'm for a one-world democratic federation based on the system that's worked best for the most democracies around the world, namely a parliamentary system. How to make it happen? Don't care, the sooner the better. Humans for humanity.

In a sense I think I feel a little bit the same way. I guess I'd be "patriotic" in the sense that I'll be so while I'm waiting for global democracy. I'm not sure if I'm making sense or not...

[K. A. Pital]

I am not a nationalist, but I feel the idea of a one-world government is not the way to go either. It has had its appeal in the age of radical revolutionary movements, but right now I'd be wary of people offering to run the entire world.

[TheFeniX]

There's a few states that are like that. Georgia is passing out of one of those periods, I think... depending on where you live (there is a distinct correlation with rural areas here), you can go into a gas station and see bumper stickers with the old state flag on them, novelty tags, etcetera. "Thank God I'm a Georgia Peach", bullshit like that. Neo-Confederate stuff is probably a bit more common now though since Sonny Perdue changed the flag to a less ridiculous design than Roy Barnes introduced, which was said to be the worst state flag design in the US at the time. People got a huge bug up their nose about how Perdue didn't go back to the original state flag though, which featured the Confederate battle flag. It's been like ten years now, they're starting to get over it.

That's the impression I get from other Southern states: confed racist bullshit and some State pride rolled in. But Texas tends to be unique because our TV stations constantly remind us we're in Texas and Texas Edition stuff exists AND IS AWESOME. I bagged on Ford originally, but it seems every damned truck has a Texas edition, and even Nissan and Toyota got in on the action. This is why I've never questioned why Hollywood and TV portrays Texans the way they do: it's because from the outside, we have to look insane.

So, here's to you Mr. Way too proud of Texas guy.

My favorite western movie is Quick and the Dead.

TQ & TD is... different... from other western movies. It contains a lot of the same elements, but it's highly-stylized in some specific ways and sort of functions as a takeoff and straight take on the genre in different ways at the same time. At the very least, it's a very genre-savvy film. They knew when they were observing convention, and when they were violating it.

Allow me to rephrase: I don't like Western Movies. Wayne and Eastwood put me to sleep. The ones I enjoy are specifically those that "aren't" westerns such as Quick and the Dead, Quigley Down Under, Support Your Local Sheriff/Gunfighter to name a few.

So, even though The Alamo wasn't really a Western, merely a hilariously over-the-top "Documentary" (read: Texas mythological masturbation-fest), I could have dealt without seeing it once, much less multiple times. I don't actually mind John Wayne so much, but most of his movies are boooooooring.

[Balrog]

I get kind of miffed that China is leapfrogging over us, but maybe I should just get over it.

Wanting to do better than a rival is not something wrong in and of itself. After all, if a rival gains an advantage over your nation and presses that advantage in negative ways (i.e. it "liberates" sections of your country) it affects you as much as it does everyone else living within said nation.

It's also why nations exist in the first place, when people realized that their small tribe would be overwhelmed by that larger tribe of mountain-folk unless they got together with their friends on the other side of the valley and presented a unified front against the aggressors. Out of that grew all the things we take for granted when it comes to modern society, so if you can't take pride in a given nation because they did something naughty in the past I guess you can take pride in being part of something which sustains civilization as we know it?

[SolarpunkFan]

Wanting to do better than a rival is not something wrong in and of itself. After all, if a rival gains an advantage over your nation and presses that advantage in negative ways (i.e. it "liberates" sections of your country) it affects you as much as it does everyone else living within said nation.

It's also why nations exist in the first place, when people realized that their small tribe would be overwhelmed by that larger tribe of mountain-folk unless they got together with their friends on the other side of the valley and presented a unified front against the aggressors. Out of that grew all the things we take for granted when it comes to modern society, so if you can't take pride in a given nation because they did something naughty in the past I guess you can take pride in being part of something which sustains civilization as we know it?

Thank you.

I want the U.S. to do more good (both here and abroad) but I just feel kind of... disappointed? I don't really know how to describe how I feel.

[K. A. Pital]

Disappointed why? With what?

Is it even normal for a nation with 300 million people to keep a life standard that's 10 times higher what the other 7,1 billion people have?

There is no way in our day and age to stop China, India and potentially other nations with a much larger population from overtaking unless you espouse the idea of keeping the others down in rubble with war or actions of "economic hitmen" designed to keep them in poverty.

That's just basic logic, and history itself has demonstrated that after the forcible brakes to development of large nations in the form of colonialism had been removed, they started bit by bit advancing towards their former masters - and given the larger population, overtaking is inevitable.

The other option, where a tiny fraction of people is always and permanently on top of the world, well, that's even worse than our current realm of inequality.

[SolarpunkFan]

I meant that I'm disappointed in the U.S. not doing more good around the world (for example: raising living standards in poorer countries).

[Esquire]

I'll just point out that the US government gives more in foreign aid than any other country, that the US is host to many of the world's largest humanitarian NGOs, and that 1 in 4 Americans volunteer through an aid organization of some sort. (Corportation for National & Community Service). It's absolutely true that we can and should do more, and that much of our effort is wasted or inefficiently utilized currently, but it's not like we're totally ambivalent to other people's suffering.

[His Divine Shadow]

Proud over Finland? Well.... I guess I am proud over the fact that we have 3-phase power. Oh and I can leave my car unlocked. And baby boxes and child care support.

Stuff like that. If I gonna be proud over something it should be something something specific, practical and useful.

[SolarpunkFan]

I know I'm probably in the wrong here, but for some reason I'm Sinophobic. Not of the Chinese people of course, they deserve a good life, I just don't know why I am.

Part of me knows that it's stupid to be so, part of me wants the U.S. to stop being stupid, part of me is a stark raving Sinophobe. It's... not a good feeling.

[K. A. Pital]

Sinophobic why?

In the US, as a foreigner with bad English, good chances you'd get robbed. Also you can't make friends with people unless you have a high income. In the latter case they'll be your friends only as long as you have that income.

In China, as a foreigner with just a tiny bit of Chinese, good chances you'd get random strangers to help you in everything and make friends with totally random people.

That's not a GDP thing. I found the US off-putting and though I had the chance to stay, I decided not to come any more (unless just as a tourist).

I found China welcoming and I'd gladly come again if I have the chance in the future, and not just as a visitor but to live for a while or even permanently. Who knows.

[SolarpunkFan]

Your points are true, but part of my brain just doesn't listen to reason.

Edit: I realize now, I'm scum. If I can't even convince myself to be rational, then what good am I?

[Raw Shark]

In the US, as a foreigner with bad English, good chances you'd get robbed. Also you can't make friends with people unless you have a high income. In the latter case they'll be your friends only as long as you have that income.

I work in an industry with a large number of low-income foreigners with bad English, some of whom are my friends.

Your points are true, but part of my brain just doesn't listen to reason.

Edit: I realize now, I'm scum. If I can't even convince myself to be rational, then what good am I?

You are thinking irrationally from a depressed place. You can be whatever good that you can be. Which is more than nothing until you become evil or die.

[TheFeniX]

In the US, as a foreigner with bad English, good chances you'd get robbed. Also you can't make friends with people unless you have a high income. In the latter case they'll be your friends only as long as you have that income.

The U.S. is a pretty broad spectrum to nail it down like that. In parts of Houston, English speakers can't even read the road signs. The areas where a person with bad English would get robbed: anyone would get robbed. Areas like New York, Houston, and LA with large international airports: you'll find much higher incidents of muggings around said airports for obvious reasons.

If you end up in a higher-income neighboorhood, you're more likely to run into cops than thugs. My friend from an extremely upscale neighborhood used to get run out of his own neighborhood because he dressed like he was in the Trench Coat Mafia and this was before Columbine. He was a white kid that didn't look the part so cops would drop him off in the next door lower income neighborhood. It got so bad, because he refused to dress decently, his parents had to give his photo to the cops that patrolled the neighborhood. The area was rife with that: mostly white lower-class kids would constantly get run out of the neighborhood.

Maybe I'm cheating a bit because Houston is pretty diverse, but I hear "bad English" nearly everyday. I think one of my neighbors is speaking Farsi most of the time on his cellphone, but it would be rude to jam my cellphone up to his mouth to record it. You will hear Spanish constantly. I have met people, some of them becoming actual friends, from Germany, England, Scotland, Canada (51st state), Russia, Japan, China, Korea, Philippines, India, Iraq, and that's just off the top of my head. And I'm just one redneck. So, the whole culture shock thing is kind of gone. Yea, the nationalism of "took our jobs" is there, but there's not a lot of special treatment for someone who just got here. Kind of sucks for them.

[K. A. Pital]

Dunno - that was my general impression after half a year of stay in the US.

I can be biased - somehow I just didn't like the country.

I have no local friends remaining from that time. But I think it is a general First World problem not unique to the US.

[TheFeniX]

Growing up, I had more than a few friends move here from out of country. While the parents enjoyed it for the most part, many kids were disappointed with Houston and I can't blame them. The city is an ugly concrete slab, traffic sucks, people are rude. And the parents wouldn't let them walk anywhere because... Houston. If I had to live in Houston proper, I'd consider diving into the woods with a gun and go all Davey Crocket and this is coming from a guy who can't survive more than 24-hours without an Internet connection.

Even the Houston social life is "face-punch" inducing. Meanwhile, in the outskirts you can find dives that look like they host KKK rallies. But when you get inside, you find young/old black/white/hispanic all sitting around telling all kinds of war stories. My experience might be abnormal but I've found that in poorer areas that actually have mixed ethnic demographics, you find some really cool people. It's the 90% white poor areas you avoid. So, hanging around a mostly hispanic area did help.