Christian Bale's Bruce Wayne in Batman V Superman

[NeoGoomba]

Pretty self-explanatory. Replace Affleck's interpretation of Batman with Bale's. How do you think the events of Batman V Superman would have played out with a far less brutal, grimdark Batman? Give BaleMan his version of Wayne Enterprises (with Lucious Fox and Applied Sciences) as his resource base. So only the tools, vehicles, and capabilities shown in the Nolanverse.

For context, we can look at Bale's Batman at his peak during "The Dark Knight", and also his older Bruce Wayne/Batman from "Dark Knight Rises".

[Crown]

Pretty self-explanatory. Replace Affleck's interpretation of Batman with Bale's. How do you think the events of Batman V Superman would have played out with a far less brutal, grimdark Batman? Give BaleMan his version of Wayne Enterprises (with Lucious Fox and Applied Sciences) as his resource base. So only the tools, vehicles, and capabilities shown in the Nolanverse.

For context, we can look at Bale's Batman at his peak during "The Dark Knight", and also his older Bruce Wayne/Batman from "Dark Knight Rises".

Would the fight even occur? Maybe Baleman would still go after Superman just like Batfleck, but why would Superman go after Baleman if he's not tenderising criminals at night to a bloody pulp and then branding them?

[NeoGoomba]

Would the fight even occur? Maybe Baleman would still go after Superman just like Batfleck, but why would Superman go after Baleman if he's not tenderising criminals at night to a bloody pulp and then branding them?[/quote]

Well I wasn't thinking about just the throw down. As I watched I was curious as to how BaleMan would go about dealing with Diana, Lexcorp, Zod, and the rest. Would he take it as a sign that his crusade was truly over once the metas begin to appear? Would Lex be able to play him as easily as Affleckman without that unhinged rage?

[Tribble]

Well, seeing as the movie is called Batman v Superman, IMO a fight between the two of them is kind of a requirement. For the sake of arguement, if you want Batman at his peak let's say that it takes place immediately after the Dark Knight, when Batman was believed to have killed several people including Harvey Dent. If you want Dark Knight Rises Batman you could assume that this takes places immediately after Batman's first re-appearance, where his is still seen as a public enemy and a murderer. Under those circumstances I think Superman would want to take Batman down.

As for Nolan's Batman's perspective I think he'd still initally view Superman as a potential threat and try to plan accordingly, but he wouldn't be as obsessed over it as Batfleck. I think it's plausible that Nolan's Batman would have tried to figure out Superman's weakness and have some kryptonite stashed, just in case.

How would Dark Knight Batman fare? Well, even if he has knowledge of Superman's weakness and has some kryptonite on him, IMO he'd stil get stomped by Superman. Nolan Batman's tech is nowhere near at the level where he can even begin to compete with Superman even if the kryptonite was being used. And he's much more strict about his "no-kill" policy, so he wouldn't do something like make a kryptonite spear and try to stab Superman to death with it, its just not his style. Batman's best bet would be to ambush Supeman in his sleep or something and say "I know who you are, where you live, and who your family is, so f&*k off." That, and maybe convince Superman to talk to Commissioner Gorden so that Superman knows the whole "Batman is a murderer" thing was just a story to try and fix the mess the Joker made.

As for Dark Knight Rises Batman... he has all the weaknesses of Nolan's Batman, plus he's 8 years older and out of shape. The only good thing to come out of that fight would be Superman stopping Bane the moment his scheme went into action, so Gotham would be spared that mess at least. Hell, you'd probably see Gotham erect a statue of Superman in honour of saving the city

Well I wasn't thinking about just the throw down. As I watched I was curious as to how BaleMan would go about dealing with Diana, Lexcorp, Zod, and the rest. Would he take it as a sign that his crusade was truly over once the metas begin to appear? Would Lex be able to play him as easily as Affleckman without that unhinged rage?

I think Nolan Batman would be better suited dealing with Diana, Lexcorp, Zod if only because he's not as crazy as Batfleck. I doubt Lex would be able to play him as easily because he would likely see the good in Superman long before Batfleck did. Also, it was pretty clear that Nolan Batman was not intending on being Batman for very long, and IMO after he learns to trust the likes of Superman and Wonder Women he'd likely retire because he would assume he was no longer needed.

[Purple]

If we are talking about alternative Betmen why not the good old ones? You know, the ones from the old movies that weren't Batman 40K?

[Elheru Aran]

If we are talking about alternative Betmen why not the good old ones? You know, the ones from the old movies that weren't Batman 40K?

*shrugs* Why the hell not.

Adam West Batman: Living, walking, talking joke. He'd pull out a can of Anti-Superman Spray from his belt or something.

Michael Keaton: I can see this one being similar-ish to Batfleck. A bit less rugged, but he's got enough of a similar background and motivation to fill the role well enough.

Val Kilmer: Too much playboy, too much shiny. Not enough grittiness. A little too much reliance on high tech.

George Clooney: Jesus fuck no. Now mind you, had the script of Batman and Robin been actually *serious*, he could've done gritty well enough-- he's a honestly decent actor. But as written? No.

[Purple]

Why the insistence on gritty? I explicitly like the old Batman movies because they are in fact not gritty, dark and overall anti fun.

[Elheru Aran]

Why the insistence on gritty? I explicitly like the old Batman movies because they are in fact not gritty, dark and overall anti fun.

Well. To each their own.

Batman isn't supposed to be a 'fun' character IMO, given his origins and the setting that he lives and works in. Cartooning that up like the Adam West series did is a grotesque parody that only works if you're deliberately going for a comic effect. The latter two Batman movies pre-Nolan/Bale tried to bring up some of this flavour, but it simply didn't work when juxtaposed with the higher tech, more slick and 'modern' feel that those movies had. Bad combination. It's no coincidence that the better Batman movies are the Nolan films and the first Burton movie, which take the character somewhat more seriously.

A light-hearted, fun character wouldn't be able to do much against the grim darkness of the Zack Snyder DC universe. I'm not saying that I LIKE the universe that the DC films are creating, but a 'fun' character would be simply too out of place.

[Crown]

If we are talking about alternative Betmen why not the good old ones? You know, the ones from the old movies that weren't Batman 40K?

*shrugs* Why the hell not.

Adam West Batman: Living, walking, talking joke. He'd pull out a can of Anti-Superman Spray from his belt or something.

Ironically, Batfleck did pretty much that!

[Civil War Man]

Pretty self-explanatory. Replace Affleck's interpretation of Batman with Bale's. How do you think the events of Batman V Superman would have played out with a far less brutal, grimdark Batman? Give BaleMan his version of Wayne Enterprises (with Lucious Fox and Applied Sciences) as his resource base. So only the tools, vehicles, and capabilities shown in the Nolanverse.

For context, we can look at Bale's Batman at his peak during "The Dark Knight", and also his older Bruce Wayne/Batman from "Dark Knight Rises".

Can I just point out how utterly bananas it is that "What if this movie had a less grimdark Batman, like the one played by Christian Bale?" is apparently a legitimate question?

Seriously. Christian Bale is the comparatively less grimdark Batman. How did we end up here?

[ray245]

Pretty self-explanatory. Replace Affleck's interpretation of Batman with Bale's. How do you think the events of Batman V Superman would have played out with a far less brutal, grimdark Batman? Give BaleMan his version of Wayne Enterprises (with Lucious Fox and Applied Sciences) as his resource base. So only the tools, vehicles, and capabilities shown in the Nolanverse.

For context, we can look at Bale's Batman at his peak during "The Dark Knight", and also his older Bruce Wayne/Batman from "Dark Knight Rises".

Can I just point out how utterly bananas it is that "What if this movie had a less grimdark Batman, like the one played by Christian Bale?" is apparently a legitimate question?

Seriously. Christian Bale is the comparatively less grimdark Batman. How did we end up here?

Studios somehow thinking giving a teenager in charge of their major projects is a good idea.

[The Romulan Republic]

Spoiler warning for Batman v Superman. Spoiler tags are still a big messed up and their isn't a spoiler warning on the thread, but this post will include spoilers so, fair warning.

If we are talking about alternative Betmen why not the good old ones? You know, the ones from the old movies that weren't Batman 40K?

*shrugs* Why the hell not.

Adam West Batman: Living, walking, talking joke. He'd pull out a can of Anti-Superman Spray from his belt or something.

The funny thing about this is that in Batman v Superman, Batman basically used Kryptonite spray (or Kryptonite mist) grenades to de-power Superman.

Michael Keaton: I can see this one being similar-ish to Batfleck. A bit less rugged, but he's got enough of a similar background and motivation to fill the role well enough.

Yes.

Both very much loners (or at least not in a relationship and have no known allies outside of Alfred initially in the films) as well, and both willing to break out the heavy firepower and kill.

Val Kilmer: Too much playboy, too much shiny. Not enough grittiness. A little too much reliance on high tech.

George Clooney: Jesus fuck no. Now mind you, had the script of Batman and Robin been actually *serious*, he could've done gritty well enough-- he's a honestly decent actor. But as written? No.

Don't know these two well-enough to say.

As to Nolan/Bale's Batman... I'm not sure I agree with Tribble that he lacks the technology of Affleck's Batman. I mean, no Kryptonite, and their are some other differences, but honestly, he could probably get access to that stuff in Superman v Batman's world. He certainly has a bigger support staff (he works closely with not just Alfred, but also Gordon, Lucius Fox, and eventually Selina and whatshisname who's actually Robin, sort of).

But I agree that he'd be less hostile to Superman, probably (unless stuff like Metropolis pushed him over the edge as well). He'll kill if he really feels he has to, but he's less brutal and he'd probably be less ready to kill. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he tried to talk things out with Superman first. Because for all the talk about how "dark" the Nolan films are, Nolan's Batman isn't really that dark a character. I'd only really put him maybe one shade darker than Justice League animated Batman. Keaton's Batman and Affleck's are both more brutal at times, and Affleck's is way more relentless/ruthless.

Agreed also that he might just retire once he knew he could count on Superman and WW. He never wanted to be Batman for life.

But then, for all we know Affleck Batman would have retired if he could have handed things off to WW and Superman. Probably not, but you never know. He never got the chance, because Superman died (something he evidently feels some guilt/responsibility for) and he found evidence that Darkseid was coming, forcing him to stay in the game and start putting the Justice League together. I think Nolan's Batman would have made much the same call under those circumstances.

Also, Superman is not powerful enough to be everywhere at once, and neither is WW. And as the Capitol bombing showed, they can still be surprised. They have the Earth to patrol. Batman may want someone who will focus on Gotham specifically (which Bale's Batman had when he retired).

[The Romulan Republic]

One thing I'm wondering is weather Baleman could have pulled off the Spoiler

rescue of Martha from Lex's goons. In some respects that fight reminded me of the hostage situation right before Baleman's final fight with the Joker, which he handled magnificently, but the way it was shot it was a much tougher and more brutal fight.

[streetad]

If we are talking about alternative Betmen why not the good old ones? You know, the ones from the old movies that weren't Batman 40K?

*shrugs* Why the hell not.

Adam West Batman: Living, walking, talking joke. He'd pull out a can of Anti-Superman Spray from his belt or something.

Ironically, Batfleck did pretty much that!

I was just mentally composing the post asking why it goes from 'camp and silly' to 'grimdark and awesome' just because the delivery method is a grenade launcher rather than an aerosol when I saw you had beaten me to it.

Adam West Batman is just so different in tone from any of the others that it's impossible to come up with a sensible answer as to what he would do. Maybe try to get superman to stop being so mopey by teaching him the Batusi? Given that he goes out of his way to avoid harming so much as a bunch of baby ducks, Superman doesn't really have any reason to try to shut him down anyway.

[The Romulan Republic]

Um... I don't know much about Adam West Batman, but didn't he work openly/publicly with the support of law enforcement?

Would Superman have any grounds to object to what he does other than personal dislike?

[The Romulan Republic]

You know, all this kind of makes me wish they'd used Nolan's Batman as the basis for Justice League/DCCU after all. I seem to recall their was some talk of that back in the day, but it obviously never went ahead.

I mean, maybe its better they didn't. Affleck hands down is better at playing Batman (sorry Bale), and I don't know if the more down to Earth Nolan world could have had the epic feel that the new Batman v Superman has. Plus it would have retconned/invalidated the trilogy's ending, which I actually liked.

But it would have been interesting.

Hmm... wonder if their are any good fanfics built around that premise.

[streetad]

Um... I don't know much about Adam West Batman, but didn't he work openly/publicly with the support of law enforcement?

Would Superman have any grounds to object to what he does other than personal dislike?

Well yeah, in that he does all the actual law enforcement in Gotham whilst the police stand around fretting and being slightly offensive stupid irishman stereotypes.

I kind of like the Adam West series. In addition to his noticeable beer-gut, the man has genuine charisma. It has the more recent 'silly' Joel Schumacher Batman films beaten by virtue of actually being quite witty on occasion.

[Elheru Aran]

Um... I don't know much about Adam West Batman, but didn't he work openly/publicly with the support of law enforcement?

Would Superman have any grounds to object to what he does other than personal dislike?

Nah, Adam West Batman was pretty much a straight-up wimp. That's one reason Frank Miller's version of the character was so popular when he first came out with that book... I guess it's almost thirty years ago; the comics were still fairly niche thanks to the show souring the popular conception of Batman as an effeminate weirdo. I mean, that was pretty much the same era as Super Friends, so... yeah. He'd shake his finger at Superman and pull off some incredibly simplistic plan involving climbing "up" a horizontal wall to BIFF and SOCK greasepainted villains. It was a live-action cartoon... and not a particularly deep one, at that.

(Hah, talk about getting opposing views here)

[The Romulan Republic]

Eh... I kind of see West Batman and Miller Batman as representing (deservedly or not- I'll leave that up to people more familiar with both interpretations) two extremes, each equally problematic in their own way.

Miller Batman is gratuitously grimdark. West Batman is a joke you can't take seriously.

For me, my preferred take is...

Well, character-wise I like Nolan Batman and Justice League animated Batman.

Acting-wise, Affleck fucking nailed it.

[streetad]

Well fortunately you don't have to choose one or the other. I don't think anyone is clamouring for an Adam West style Batman to turn up in the DC extended universe - IMO there's no reason he can't be filed under 'guilty pleasure' though.

Personally I'd like to see a film version that makes more of Batman's 'world's greatest detective' side - an aspect that has been lacking in all of the cinematic takes. We had a little taste of that in the new film, more so than usual where he just feeds stuff into a magic computer but he still ultimately made most of his decisions based on 'stuff he imagined in a dream'.

The version in 'Batman vs Superman' pretty much has to be psycho Frank Miller Death Wish Batman because (putting aside any arguments about mauling the character of Superman) otherwise there is no plausible reason they would come to blows at all. You can't really insert Nolan's or the Burton/Schumacher take and retain anything like the same plot given that the whole fight could have been avoided if Batman was reasonable/sane enough to actually listen for five seconds instead of immediately attacking.

[The Romulan Republic]

Obviously their are alternatives besides grimdark Miller Batman and cartoon West Batman. Like I said, I prefer Nolan/Bale's Batman and animated Justice League Batman as characters.

But I get the sense that Batman v Superman's Batman wasn't so vicious and ruthless at first, and maybe won't be in the future. Remember that this is a Batman who has apparently Spoiler

both lost Robin to the Joker and seen what happened Metropolis. And its implied, at least, that he was a better man before Metropolis. Remember that the first thing we see of (adult) Affleck Batman is him running to save his employees from a collapsing building, then comforting a girl who'd just lost her mum. And Alfred's lecture to him about how such experience "turn good men cruel".

And now I feel like he's got WW, and Superman's memory (along with his guilt over "failing" Superman) to reign in his excesses of grimdark.

Also, their are legitimate reasons for Batman and Superman to be at odds without the Miller-style Batman.

But I agree that a more rational and moderate Batman probably not have gone straight to killing without attempting negotiation, or used such needlessly destructive tactics.

As to the detective... we got a bit of that from Nolan Batman, but I agree, I'd like to see it more.

Edit: Added spoiler tags.

[streetad]

You can probably tell I disliked the new film - Affleck was pretty blameless though and I look forward to seeing more of his Batman away from the influence of Zack Snyder and his focus on the worst elements of the Miller version.

I especially liked Spoiler

the sequences where he was able to make more progress by being Bruce Wayne and 007ing it up at fancy parties than by bashing heads as Batman as well as the early scene that you mentioned of him pulling people from the rubble.

[The Romulan Republic]

I liked when Alfred pointed out to him that Spoiler

their were situations where he could do more good as Bruce Wayne than as Batman.

[Tribble]

If Michael Keaton's Batman got into a fight with Superman the movie would be over pretty quick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn_FMsoTkGY

Assume the bald guy's Supemran and the bomb's kryptonite, and, well, there you go. Seriously, Keaton's Batman never had a problem wasting people... and he's the only one that can pull off the "you're totally fucked!" smile that you see at 0:21 so effortlessly.

[Elheru Aran]

If Michael Keaton's Batman got into a fight with Superman the movie would be over pretty quick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn_FMsoTkGY

Assume the bald guy's Supemran and the bomb's kryptonite, and, well, there you go. Seriously, Keaton's Batman never had a problem wasting people... and he's the only one that can pull off the "you're totally fucked!" smile that you see at 0:21 so effortlessly.

Keaton-Man was... interesting. A definite departure from the traditional Batman portrayal up to that time. A strong reaction to the comics-based silliness, heavily influenced by Dark Knight Returns, and with a pretty good slash of Tim Burton wackiness to boot. That, along with DKR, is what basically made Batman the grimdark avenger of the night that he is now. Before then, he was either a clown or a detective in funny clothes chasing the occasionally homicidal but mostly cartoonish villains. 'Death in the Family'-- the story arc where Jason Todd got killed-- also came out about the same time too.

Of course, we also had the death of Superman a few years later, and in general comics just took a turn for the darker (or sillier, depending on who you talk to) in the 90s... Red and Blue Superman, anybody?