Rogue One: A Star Wars Story

[The Romulan Republic]

I would kind of like to see them work Thrawn and maybe Mara back in somehow.

That, Dark Lord, the two Clone Wars series (one of which is still canon as I understand it), original KotOR, and the ICS are about all from the old EU that I really cared for. And ICS was very much a double-edged sword, because it sucked all the joy and challenge from versus debates.

[APlayerHater]

What does that have to do with the new lead being female? Unless you're actually trying to argue that the reason Rey was weak is because she was female, I'm not sure what your point is.

Anyway, I personally think your take on Rey is a little too harsh. I found her personality likeable enough and have no complaints about the actor. I just think she wasn't very well developed. Sloppy script and shallow characterization.

The sloppy script and shallow characterizations were the main problems, yes. But I feel, as some others probably feel, that Rey not being challenged in TFA had a lot to do with their desire to show her being a "strong female protagonist." Furiousa, Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor are good protagonists: they have a hard time, they accomplish something through their perseverance in the face of all odds; they don't always succeed and they very often fail. I didn't feel that at all with Rey: she just sleepwalks through the film with complete ease, never being challenged, never making any decisions or doing anything on her own initiative.

She has a mastery in every single field of expertise, gunfighting, staff fighting, the force; she's mastered a number of languages including wookie and droid (I mention again no other character speaks droid, because I am convinced that humans 'cannot' understand droid) and the only explanation for these feats being throw away lines in 3rd party merchandise. She isn't shown to have a mentor: she isn't shown to have been taught 'or' raised; with the environment she was shown growing up with I'm surprised she can even read. And despite all this she's the new character who comes along and instantly outshines the established cast in every way. She's a fanfic character.

Even Neo from the Matrix, one of the biggest wish fulfillment Stu's out there, had a hard time. He was basically the load for most of that movie; impotent while Cypher tried to kill him, impotent while Morpheus sacrificed himself, chickening out and getting captured by the agents when trying to escape that office building; failing the jump test. He was challenged and he grew, at least in the first film. I feel like if they wrote Neo the same way they wrote Rey he would have succeeded with flying colors, and without any effort, in all of those instances. It's basic storytelling: the character should fail and should learn from their failures, or struggle and learn from their struggles. Scenes should exist in a movie for a reason, preferably even to tell a story; not just to pad the run time between the big dumb fight at the beginning and the big dumb fight at the end.

Was Rey as brain-breakingly bad a character as Anakin in TPM? I'd say not quite. Anakin destroys the droid army, as well as doing other impossible feats, while having no idea what was going on. Even as a little kid when I first saw that movie, 7 years old, Anakin completely took me out of the film every second he was on screen, more so while accomplishing ridiculous feats with no sense of difficulty or danger; without even being aware he was doing so. That whole movie was like the part with the goblin king in the Hobbit 1, or the barrel rider scene in Hobbit 2: a cg laser lightshow of shapes moving around on screen that makes your eyes glaze over, with no ties to logic, reality, or suspension of disbelief.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I think you're being rather unfair there. Her speaking several languages can be explained from growing up in that Nema Outpost place with countless different species. If she were exposed to so many languages as a child it's not surprising she'd pick them up. It was never shown that she's fluent in them, but she knew enough to get by certainly.

The staff fighting and gun fighting are also explained by growing up in a shitty place like that. Her piloting skills were I think explained as that big trader person teaching her or something. Or maybe the place had an old flight simulator and that was her only source of fun as a kid.

TRR: Whilst I agree that Rey could have been better-developed in TFA, Luke was hardly a brilliantly developed character in ANH either, and since this was the first film of three the focus woudl have been on setting stuff up to build on in the next two. So consider her a partially-developed character and it makes more sense.

[Borgholio]

(I mention again no other character speaks droid, because I am convinced that humans 'cannot' understand droid)

Poe seems to understand BB-8 well enough.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Plus doesn't Luke talk to Artoo in the swamp on Dagobah? In the X-Wing there's a translation screen but in the swamp it's just those two.

[Rogue 9]

Plus doesn't Luke talk to Artoo in the swamp on Dagobah? In the X-Wing there's a translation screen but in the swamp it's just those two.

Luke was guessing from context. "If you're saying coming here was a bad idea, I'm beginning to agree with you."

[APlayerHater]

I think you're being rather unfair there.

I'm really not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. Remember that Into Darkness followed Trek 2009. Now I like into darkness more than most people, but it was a soulless retread/ripoff most of the time, and just a big dumb action movie the rest of the time. Also: a character assassination of Spock that showed the writers had no understanding of who Spock actually was.

Now I don't know anything about Rian Johnson (?) the director of 8 (?). Maybe it'll be their ESB, I don't know, but until such point that we can get more plot or backstory to redeem these characters in my eyes I'm going to be hesitant to believe that there are good explanations for any of this.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Plus doesn't Luke talk to Artoo in the swamp on Dagobah? In the X-Wing there's a translation screen but in the swamp it's just those two.

Luke was guessing from context. "If you're saying coming here was a bad idea, I'm beginning to agree with you."

Fair point. It's been a while since I saw ESB.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I think you're being rather unfair there.

I'm really not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. Remember that Into Darkness followed Trek 2009. Now I like into darkness more than most people, but it was a soulless retread/ripoff most of the time, and just a big dumb action movie the rest of the time. Also: a character assassination of Spock that showed the writers had no understanding of who Spock actually was.

Now I don't know anything about Rian Johnson (?) the director of 8 (?). Maybe it'll be their ESB, I don't know, but until such point that we can get more plot or backstory to redeem these characters in my eyes I'm going to be hesitant to believe that there are good explanations for any of this.

That's up to you, but I would note that everything I suggested was either already in the film or a quite reasonable assumption that doesn't actually need something mentioned in the next film. Besides, being multilingual seems common enough in SW so it's hardly a mary-sue-esque thing for Rey to be able to speak more than one language. Even then, we see her speak, what, three? Basic/English, enough droid to understand BB-8 and whatever language that guy trying to steal the droid was, and as she clearly knew him/it and had dealt with them before, her knowing the language isn't surprising at all.

Honestly, complaining that Rey can speak more than one language is the single dumbest "she's a mary sue" accusation I've ever heard. It'd be like saying it was bullshit if you had a British guy working with a Frenchman and a German on a regular basis for twenty years and they knew enough French and German to communicate effectively in the office.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think the only things I really have a problem with as far as Rey's powers are the sudden plot-convenient vision in Maz's castle, her degree of flying skill (I don't mind her being a good pilot but that was on another level), and her self-taught skill with the Jedi mind trick.

Her having language and mechanical skills and some piloting and hand to hand combat skill is sufficiently justified, and I actually liked her beating Ren in a mental contest, because that seemed more like a straight up battle of wills and Ren is a conflicted, insecure poser/wanker.

I also liked her pulling the lightsaber to her on the Starkiller Base, because it was a well-executed moment in the film.

The duel itself I would find hard to swallow, but Ren was weakened enough I can buy it, if barely.

[evillejedi]

The shot in the trailer is a combination of ISDI and ISD2. The ISDI studio model recreated faithfully would look awful in CG - there's simply not enough detail on it. It looks like they took the ISDI tower, turrets, and maybe the first layer of terrace, and then based the rest of the Avenger model from TESB.

I've been looking at some of the details more and the original devastator model had a thick raised lip to the brim trench where the avenger has a step down, also the sensor globes are angled outward based on the bridge tower slope like the Devastator model where later model ISD's are vertical. The Super structure I agree looks like a mix of the Devastator and Avenger, some of the details like under the bridge tower look like they are from an ISD II, but the bulk geometry is flat sided like the Avenger in ANH was. It will be interesting to see if the engine baffles and the rear of the bridge tower is Devastator. One thing that does look really weird is that the lights on the top of the bridge tower look like they are super imposed, but the geometry is a ladder like structure running along the underside of the overhang.

It also looks like there are large dual turbolasers on the ventral bow?

The Hangar bay seems strange, like there is fog in there, but it might be the lights, the tractor beam projectors are not very prominent, like they are angled more flush to the hull, they also seem wider apart and the main bay crane is not visible

My guess is they laser scanned the original model and then mirrored it and then made a cleaned up new mesh around that base. Most of the original was asymmetrical and this is almost completely symmetrical

[APlayerHater]

I think the only things I really have a problem with as far as Rey's powers are the sudden plot-convenient vision in Maz's castle, her degree of flying skill (I don't mind her being a good pilot but that was on another level), and her self-taught skill with the Jedi mind trick.

Her having language and mechanical skills and some piloting and hand to hand combat skill is sufficiently justified, and I actually liked her beating Ren in a mental contest, because that seemed more like a straight up battle of wills and Ren is a conflicted, insecure poser/wanker.

Personally, I had a growing sense that something was wrong building throughout the whole movie.

"Oh she can beat up these two dudes with a staff? Okay, seems a little far fetched since they got the jump on her but okay, she's an action hero or whatever (although at least in most action movies, characters are shown or implied to have had some kind of training to do these things). Oh, she can speak droid, well that's a bit weird. She can pilot the falcon? Okay. Oh, wow, she's a ridiculously good pilot. Okay, and she's a mechanic and knows how to released deadly gas (wait, stormtrooper helmets don't have rebreathers? The hell? You'd think venting the atmosphere or using poison gas would be standard tactics against boarding parties). Oh, and she can hack doors, okay. Oh, and she can understand Chewbacca? Um. Oh, and now she's getting a vision from Anakin's lightsaber.. Okay, I'm not sure why that would happen. Oh, and she's a crack shot with a pistol, despite we're seeing her not knowing how to operate it correctly.. Is this the first time she's ever held a gun? How is she killing all these stormtroopers.. Oh, hey, Kylo did something with his force stop ability, neat. Okay and now she's reversing his mind probe thing.. And now she's mind controlling Daniel Craig. How does she even know what a jedi mind trick is? And now she's just sneaking around starkiller base like she's a ninja or something, at least in ANH they needed disguises.. So just hearing the words 'the force' is enough to suddenly enable you to beat your opponent? I'm sure Kylo also remembers the force exists." -Obviously these are not my thoughts verbatim, but it's indicative of how it started to nag at me more and more throughout the movie.

It's just one thing after another compounding throughout the whole movie, snowballing into this big thing.

Honestly, complaining that Rey can speak more than one language is the single dumbest "she's a mary sue" accusation I've ever heard. It'd be like saying it was bullshit if you had a British guy working with a Frenchman and a German on a regular basis for twenty years and they knew enough French and German to communicate effectively in the office.

And how does a wookie teach you to speak their language? Or how does a droid teach you to speak droid? Wookies are physically incapable of speaking other languages, at least according to the old EU. And at that point, why would wookie junkers even bother teaching some random orphan to speak their language anyway? Just buy a protocol droid, and then have that droid translate for you.

Solo could speak huttese because that was the trade language out where he did business, and he could speak shyriiwook because he hung out with chewie, and they ostensibly had lots of adventures.

[Sea Skimmer]

Seems like a real hackjob were going to get. Super implausible character, who has to be another English sounding white women of course for reasons, with the worst possible horrible traits for being a secret agent/spy/covert anything, and a bunch of really dumb looking fighting. I was hoping these side story movies would be where some more exoticism came back into the franchise but looks like nope. Certainly I don't see a trace. Frankly the moment I saw the moron with the staff I just gave up hope, I'll have to settle for being happy if it isn't a literal Force Awakens 2.0.

The fact that this is from the director for Godzilla, which could put most of its problems squarely on poor direction and a failure to give the audience what it rationally wanted is also filtering my expectations and opinions.

[Knife]

None the less, seems we're going back to the OT era with all it's beauty. I'll give the characters a bit of slack to go back to real X wings and SD's and a freak'n Death Star. Might get a good explanation on the Rebel troops (really hoping it's Alderaan troops) and what not. I'm moderately excited.

[Vympel]

You keep using that word. I do not think that it means what you think it means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk

[Ace Pace]

I'm hoping, given the time frame and Mothma's presence, that they'll show us the disbanding of the Senate on screen. That would be a time for Palpatine to show up.

The senate was disbanded mid ANH.

TARKIN
The Imperial Senate will no longer
be of any concern to us. I've just
received word that the Emperor has
dissolved the council permanently.
The last remnants of the Old Republic
have been swept away.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yes, I know that, of course. Seeing as how I, you know, have watched A New Hope.

But I get the sense that A New Hope covers a fairly short span of time, and presumably I imagine that disbanding the Senate would have been in the works for a while. If this film is set right before A New Hope or overlaps it a little you could work something about the disbanding of the Senate in their.

[Adam Reynolds]

Seems like a real hackjob were going to get. Super implausible character, who has to be another English sounding white women of course for reasons, with the worst possible horrible traits for being a secret agent/spy/covert anything, and a bunch of really dumb looking fighting. I was hoping these side story movies would be where some more exoticism came back into the franchise but looks like nope. Certainly I don't see a trace. Frankly the moment I saw the moron with the staff I just gave up hope, I'll have to settle for being happy if it isn't a literal Force Awakens 2.0.

The character is even rumored to be Rey's mother, because of course she is. Though Rey doesn't actually speak with a normal British accent.

On the issue of a covert agent being an overly violent combatant, its not like that is new. The covert raids on the Death Star and Endor both turned into epic firefights. If Star Wars didn't have a major shootout people would wonder why.

As for the staff fighting, while that is not exactly new either(a character in Rebels does the same), it is in many ways worse. Hand to hand combat in any modern of future context should be a last resort, not a primary weapon. At least not unless you are a Jedi. Which leads to the next question, if you are casting Donnie Yen, why is he not a Jedi? Have they seen his fight in Hero?

The fact that this is from the director for Godzilla, which could put most of its problems squarely on poor direction and a failure to give the audience what it rationally wanted is also filtering my expectations and opinions.

I wonder how much of that was writing vs direction?

At least the skydiving scene was cool, if also somewhat stupid(why would a covert drop use smoke?).

[eMeM]

The character is even rumored to be Rey's mother, because of course she is.

But isn't she Snoke?

[NecronLord]

Yes, I know that, of course. Seeing as how I, you know, have watched A New Hope.

But I get the sense that A New Hope covers a fairly short span of time, and presumably I imagine that disbanding the Senate would have been in the works for a while. If this film is set right before A New Hope or overlaps it a little you could work something about the disbanding of the Senate in their.

A senate plot isn't really likely. Disney has demonstrated they're extremely risk-averse with these films; the fans, critics and public didn't like the amount of politics in the prequels, so they're hardly going to give us more than at best, a glimpse, of politics, and really I don't imagine they'd show the senate floor or anything.

[NecronLord]

As for the staff fighting, while that is not exactly new either(a character in Rebels does the same), it is in many ways worse. Hand to hand combat in any modern of future context should be a last resort, not a primary weapon. At least not unless you are a Jedi. Which leads to the next question, if you are casting Donnie Yen, why is he not a Jedi? Have they seen his fight in Hero?

Really that is more jarring another woman being an apparently expert staff fighter (though always the hollywood take on staff fighting, sadly) which is hardly that unusual or far fetched, even if it might become a cliche; I'd love to know what the excuse is going to be for why they don't shoot him; even if they want him alive, they have stun settings.

[Crazedwraith]

Plus doesn't Luke talk to Artoo in the swamp on Dagobah? In the X-Wing there's a translation screen but in the swamp it's just those two.

Luke was guessing from context. "If you're saying coming here was a bad idea, I'm beginning to agree with you."

Fair point. It's been a while since I saw ESB.

Han is clearly having a technical discussion with a repair droid on Hoth in ESB as well.

[Adam Reynolds]

I would kind of like to see them work Thrawn and maybe Mara back in somehow.

That, Dark Lord, the two Clone Wars series (one of which is still canon as I understand it), original KotOR, and the ICS are about all from the old EU that I really cared for. And ICS was very much a double-edged sword, because it sucked all the joy and challenge from versus debates.

I had meant to respond to this earlier and forgot.

Anyway, Dark Lord is impossible to reconcile with the Order 66 arc in Clone Wars. If the clones had mind control chips, there is no way they would ever disobey the order.

As for KOTOR, I don't see the new EU going into that era for awhile. Though seeing Bioware remake and update the game for the new canon might be interesting.

I don't see how Thrawn and Mara could really fit into the new continuity. The new Empire dies too quickly from what we saw of the new timeline.

[APlayerHater]

Han is clearly having a technical discussion with a repair droid on Hoth in ESB as well.

Depending on one's definition of clearly. As I recall it isn't on frame for very long and I can't remember whether it's speaking droid speech as beeps and boops, or in a language. I mean, the man can't even communicate with the hyperdrive on his own ship.

There are times when characters speak to droids, and the droids sort of wiggle or emote in response, but it would be a leap to say the humans 'understood' the droids.

[Sea Skimmer]

I don't see how Thrawn and Mara could really fit into the new continuity. The new Empire dies too quickly from what we saw of the new timeline.

I see about 0.0% chance of Disney directly reusing those storylines, but it'd be easy to insert the characters with minimal changes or new composites (likely) based on them into a new storyline. That really wouldn't be hard at all, indeed given the way Rebels had Vader pulling random force using pawns out of his butt Mara's generalized background already exists in new canon. I don't think this would really be a bad thing since so much of Mara's later history simply cannot happen, and Thrawn while fun in a book was awful drawn out in term of actually doing anything. He could still come out of nowhere to raise hell but it would have to be different. Been a while since those books in any case.