I *hate* the solar panel explanation...

[Purple]

If you don't mind stepping back from the alternate explanations for a moment could anyone answer a simple question for me? What is wrong with it simply being magically powerful solar cells that power the fighter? I mean this is a setting with real magic, laser swords, FTL flight, violations of causality etc. So just what is it about the idea of supper efficient clean energy that to you is out of place?

[Khaat]

They have hypermatter reactors, and aren't guaranteed to be operating anywhere near a stellar body of "sufficient luminosity" (whatever that means).

The magic thing also isn't that widely believed by the OT and ST eras; just the kooks, mystics, and those they've bamboozled. Everyone else is just really dependent on their tech. It would out of character for everyone to "believe enough" to make magic a staple of starship design.

[Purple]

When I say magically effective I do not mean that in a literal sense but rather "so effective that to us it looks like magic". I thought it was obvious from the context.

[Eternal_Freedom]

As someone pointed out earlier, even if the solar panels were magically able to collect, store and use 100% of the energy that hits them from a sun, they are still limited by how much energy the star is emitting. For a Sun-type star at 1AU (a good baseline since TIEs are commonly seen around habitable worlds which would be about this distancce) the energy emitted per square metre is a meagre ~1.4 kW/m^2, which just isn't enough for a spacecraft capable of the accelerations and weapons power TIEs are seen to be capable of.

Then there is the issue of the times fighters have been seen flying around further from stars, like in the Hoth asteroid field, or as someone noted, over Starkiller Base in TFA once the sun has been...eaten.

Finally there is the existence of the TIE Interceptor, supposedly faster and more maneuverable (meaning higher power requirements) despite having smaller solar panels.

[Lord Revan]

we should also remember that Force Powers was that was more or less exclusive to the Jedi Order (and the Sith) while there was other sects of Force users they were few in numbers and Force based technology was practically unheard of certain not common enough to be used in something like the TIEs as both in current and previous incarnations when techonology that uses the Force it's seen as something rare and exotic, where the characters (if not Jedi, Sith or member of those minor sects) go "wow didn't know that was possible" rather then "oh it's one of those cases fine! *Sigh*".

When I say magically effective I do not mean that in a literal sense but rather "so effective that to us it looks like magic". I thought it was obvious from the context.

the thing is that even at 100% effiency a true solar panel wouldn't give anywhere near sufficient energy for the TIE to function. After all you can't give more energy then you have and for solar panel effectiveness and efficiency are one and the same.

[Purple]

I understand all that. What I do not understand is why when given a setting with actual magical powers including magical mind control, routine violations of relativity (FTL) and causality (prediction) the proverbial straw that breaks the camels back with your suspension of disbelief is a solar panel that shouldn't work.

[Eternal_Freedom]

We aren't saying solar panels in SW don't work. We are saying that in the case of TIE-series craft they cannot provide enough power.

So unless you are so determined to keep themas solar panels you make stars orders of magnitude brighter, you're sunk. And if you do do that, well, we might as well stop talking since physics just went out the window.

[Purple]

I do not think you understand what I am saying. Allow me to try again. Why is it that among all the other blatant violations of physics that make star trek look like a science show it is this one in particular that you dislike so much? What makes this one special?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Because unlike the other crazy technology in SW, a solar panel is limited by the emissions of a star, not how effecient/effective it is. As Revan said a solar panel, no matter how effecient, cannot provide more energy per square metre than what the nearest star is emitting.

[Crazedwraith]

Maybe it's like Saxton's explanation for Dooku's Solar Sail it's just a name and it really works off XYZ sci-fi radiation.

[Khaat]

If they have FTL, only causality needs to be missing from the setting. The setting gets FTL and predictions, mutable fate ("always in motion is the future"), and the story isn't limited to one star system.

Handwaving their tech (which is internally consistent) is easier than breaking the observable universe to make "magic solar panels" that collect more energy than there is.

[Lord Revan]

Well with the Force or FTL when justify them as "something we don't understand yet" science isn't static after all and FTL is something you could plausibly discover is the future but solar panel that's more then 100% efficient is harder to swallow. basicaly it's easier to accept the Force and FTL because we know nothing about them so what we know doesn't cause the "that's not how it works" reaction.

As odd as it sounds hyperdrive might not be in conflict with current sciencific theories, however a solar panel that is more then 100% efficient is drawing energy from nothing and thus is in conflict with one of the core princibles of modern science the conservation of energy (aka energy cannot be created or destroyed only transfered)

[Adam Reynolds]

While I don't disagree about the solar panel issue, there is an underlying problem with energy generation in Star Wars regardless. The Death Star produces more energy than is theoretically possible under E=MC^2. That is just as big of a violation as solar panels producing more energy than is theoretically possible.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Not entirely, since we have the whole question of how exactly a "hypermatter reactor" works, we can file that under "it works but fuck if I know how" so it breaking physics is less of a concern than a soalar panel that's generating more power than the radiation it absorbs.

After all, if they have a way of drawing energy from nothing why use solar panels at all?

[FedRebel]

Not entirely, since we have the whole question of how exactly a "hypermatter reactor" works, we can file that under "it works but fuck if I know how"

"Hypermatter" may be what we call 'Dark Matter', "The Force" is 'Dark Energy'.

The "hyper" part is of course derived from the realm of "hyperspace" which isn't observable to the rest of the universe, yet an integrated component. The properties of which enable FTL transit, communication, and the acceleratoing expansion of the universe

'Dark Energy' of course "binds the galaxy (and the whole universe) together." In their Lexicon, likely untold millennia past (well, well before 25,000 BBY) it was known as "Dark Force" and was a scientific concept like 'Dark Energy' is to us. Throw in a Dark age or two and it gets religious-ified, a schism occurs and one 'faith' drops the "Dark" and "the Force" as we know it takes shape. Successive holy wars make things 'worse' in the sense of mysticism overriding scientific understanding and each 'faith' wiping the other out repeatedly with cultural contaminations, corruptions of 'legends', etc.

Force users in the 'modern' era are like 40K humans in terms of stagnation of knowledge...hence the fascination with "artifacts" from millennia long past, the "how" has long since been lost and their "why" has been grossly corrupted.

[Lord Revan]

speculation that may or may not be correct we simply don't know, SW has some what clever in that they've left how things like hypermatter reactors work vague as it's really not needed for the story.

As for the nature of the Force as far as I know it's has been never specified what exactly the Force is and in fact IIRC it's something of a mystery in-universe as well (and for the Nth time the midichlorians transmit/channel the Force they're not the source).

so we can speculate what it is but in the end it's "it works but hell if I know why" as Eternal_Freedom put it (yes I know that's not a direct quote but I dislike over use of the certain 4-letter word starting with "f")

[APlayerHater]

Perhaps the solar panels are 4th dimensional tesseracts extending into infinite parallel realities and timelines to simultaneously draw infinite power from all local stars in other realities, or from untapped solar energy flowing through hyperspace. Technobabble and shrugging.

[Sea Skimmer]

As for the nature of the Force as far as I know it's has been never specified what exactly the Force is and in fact IIRC it's something of a mystery in-universe as well (and for the Nth time the midichlorians transmit/channel the Force they're not the source).

You never watched the last season of the Clone Wars I take it?

[APlayerHater]

Well obviously mystical telepathic powers are nonsense. It makes much more sense for everyone's cells to contain mystical telepathic mitochondria, who then communicate with our bodies through... Telepathy? Obviously our bodies don't generate enough energy, or contain the specialized machinery you would need, to manifest psychokinesis/telepathy/etc.

Mystical energy fields permeating higher parallel universes or something. I know Ani entered some alternate universe and fought a gargoyle or something.

[APlayerHater]

Anyway, stars clearly exist in hyperspace since Han talks about accidentally crashing into supernovas/etc in ANH. Maybe stars in the SWU emit energy into hyperspace in far larger amounts than they do in real space, and TIE fighters can absorb this energy in their panels.

[Adam Reynolds]

Not entirely, since we have the whole question of how exactly a "hypermatter reactor" works, we can file that under "it works but fuck if I know how" so it breaking physics is less of a concern than a solar panel that's generating more power than the radiation it absorbs.

After all, if they have a way of drawing energy from nothing why use solar panels at all?

Thinking about it again, the other underlying problem with my point is Occam's Razor. It is better to have one assumption than two.

Radiators are also a better explanation for s-foils as well, so they win in more ways than one.

"Hypermatter" may be what we call 'Dark Matter', "The Force" is 'Dark Energy'.

The "hyper" part is of course derived from the realm of "hyperspace" which isn't observable to the rest of the universe, yet an integrated component. The properties of which enable FTL transit, communication, and the acceleratoing expansion of the universe

'Dark Energy' of course "binds the galaxy (and the whole universe) together." In their Lexicon, likely untold millennia past (well, well before 25,000 BBY) it was known as "Dark Force" and was a scientific concept like 'Dark Energy' is to us. Throw in a Dark age or two and it gets religious-ified, a schism occurs and one 'faith' drops the "Dark" and "the Force" as we know it takes shape. Successive holy wars make things 'worse' in the sense of mysticism overriding scientific understanding and each 'faith' wiping the other out repeatedly with cultural contaminations, corruptions of 'legends', etc.

Force users in the 'modern' era are like 40K humans in terms of stagnation of knowledge...hence the fascination with "artifacts" from millennia long past, the "how" has long since been lost and their "why" has been grossly corrupted.

Certainly an interesting theory, even if eventually disproved.

One thing I have wondered is how much people in the galaxy actually understand it, even experts. Even with modern Earth, genuine experts in one field have a hard time transferring their knowledge to another. Imagine doing an economic analysis of imports to Coruscant or a physiological study across a thousand different species. It is no wonder that droids are as popular as they are for such functions as protocol and medical droids. I don't recall actually seeing a human doctor in all of Star Wars.

The old-EU even gave examples of things that were so old that no one understood them all that well, things like Centerpoint Station or the Star Forge. In the case of the Star Forge, it wasn't until the end that Malak discovered that it could serve as a conduit for the Dark Side, despite years in control of the station.

speculation that may or may not be correct we simply don't know, SW has some what clever in that they've left how things like hypermatter reactors work vague as it's really not needed for the story.

As for the nature of the Force as far as I know it's has been never specified what exactly the Force is and in fact IIRC it's something of a mystery in-universe as well (and for the Nth time the midichlorians transmit/channel the Force they're not the source).

I wonder if the rest of the sequel trilogy might give us answers as to the nature of the Force. Obviously Abrams is more about giving questions, but maybe the next two might give us answers.

There is apparently something about the wellspring of the Dark Side in EU books released before the film, so perhaps we will see that eventually.

You never watched the last season of the Clone Wars I take it?

Thanks for reminding me. I had actually forgotten that garbage. The Order 66 arc was bad enough.

[Sea Skimmer]

Thanks for reminding me. I had actually forgotten that garbage. The Order 66 arc was bad enough.

...I know. Sorry I reminded you. I still feel like Lucas had reached the point of active trolling with that entire season. He's done enough other trolling things that I don't think this out of character, or really that unreasonable either since it went both ways. Ah well, nothing to do about it now. The soul of the franchise is gone and that is that.

[Lord Revan]

if you ask me the Force should be one of those things we don't know that much about, it gives SW a feel of mythical story that isn't bad at all. after all you don't have to explain all just make sure you're consistent.

[Adam Reynolds]

Thanks for reminding me. I had actually forgotten that garbage. The Order 66 arc was bad enough.

...I know. Sorry I reminded you. I still feel like Lucas had reached the point of active trolling with that entire season. He's done enough other trolling things that I don't think this out of character, or really that unreasonable either since it went both ways. Ah well, nothing to do about it now. The soul of the franchise is gone and that is that.

There was an arc in between those about Jar Jar and a Force prophecy. I refuse to learn any more than that.

As for Disney, it is interesting that they have taken some of the worst ideas from the EU and turned them into proper stories.

[bilateralrope]

As for Disney, it is interesting that they have taken some of the worst ideas from the EU and turned them into proper stories.

Do you have any examples ?

I didn't pay much attention to the old EU. I don't pay much attention to anything outside the movies and the Rebels series.