Star Wars Peer Power

[Rhadamantus]

As a hypothetical, since the actual Empire vs AQ outcome is obvious, what would happen if the Empire was a peer power to the Feddies?
If you turn their galaxy into a globular cluster (such as Omega Centauri), then they'd have about 10 million stars against the AQ's 12 million, and a roughly comparable population if you downsize the ecumenopoli. If we make it so hyperdrive can cross the 40ly radius in a couple days, FTL speeds are around 5000c, which is pretty similar. If we downsize the firepower and power generation specs by 5 or 6 orders of magnitudes, a GCS can pose a challenge to a ISD. This setting wouldn't change the Imperial strategic calculus, and so they'd basically be the Empire of the Thrawn Trilogy. If we take this mini-Empire and connect it to the Federation, what would the more equal fight look like

[biostem]

Well, even if you did something like 1 turbolaser battery = 1 Galaxy Class phaser strip, ISDs still have more turbolasers and the Empire has more ISDs than the Federation has capital ships.

If you reduce things so both sides have the same volume of ships, and Hyperdrive = Warp, then it would come down to whether you're including named characters and production capability, etc.

[Rhadamantus]

I was saying something like 200 GT turbolasers get turned into 200 KT turbolasers. In the scenario, it'd be comparing their cultures and strategic doctrine.

[Esquire]

Just to be clear - magically the Empire is of roughly-equal size, speed, and per-gun weapons yield to the Federation?

The Empire still wins, because they have a functioning military culture used to large-scale war planning and ruthless enough to use planetary bombardment as a bargaining chip. Also, a Star Destroyer has many more guns and many fewer critical design flaws than a Galaxy does, and the Empire has many more ISDs than the Federation has Galaxies. They have better ships, more of them, and the ability to use them properly.

[The Romulan Republic]

Just to be clear - magically the Empire is of roughly-equal size, speed, and per-gun weapons yield to the Federation?

The Empire still wins, because they have a functioning military culture used to large-scale war planning and ruthless enough to use planetary bombardment as a bargaining chip.

Doesn't that all describe the Cardassians and Dominion too, at least as much as it describes the Empire?

Also, a Star Destroyer has many more guns and many fewer critical design flaws than a Galaxy does, and the Empire has many more ISDs than the Federation has Galaxies. They have better ships, more of them, and the ability to use them properly.

Its not a simple Galaxy class vs. ISD comparison. The Empire has loads of other ships, of varying quality, and so does the Federation.

And more of them? If the Empire was the same size as the Federation?

I honestly don't see the Empire fielding 25,000 ISDs with a Federation-sized territory to draw on for resources.

[Lord Revan]

Just to be clear - magically the Empire is of roughly-equal size, speed, and per-gun weapons yield to the Federation?

The Empire still wins, because they have a functioning military culture used to large-scale war planning and ruthless enough to use planetary bombardment as a bargaining chip.

Doesn't that all describe the Cardassians and Dominion too, at least as much as it describes the Empire?

Also to extent the Romulan Star Empire and the Klingon Empire as well, people tend to forget that the Federation is surrounded with highly militaristic powers who are quite ruthless.

There's also the Tholians, the Gorn, the Breen and probably other medium sized powers I'm forgetting.

[biostem]

Cardassians are actually technologically inferior to the Federation, their starships are smaller, and only have a handful of weapon emplacements. The Romulans aren't really interested in direct conflict, and rely heavily on their stealth advantage. Neither empire has the kind of production capability as the Galactic Empire.

[The Romulan Republic]

Neither would the Empire have the same production capability in this scenario, would it?

And the Dominion was technologically equal or superior to the Federation in at least some ways, and interested in direct conflict.

[Elheru Aran]

IIRC the implication was that long term the Federation didn't really have much of a chance against the Dominion if they hadn't resorted to sneaky tricks like poisoning the Changeling Great Link. So yeah, fairly comparable there. The Klingon Empire had too much internal drama, the Romulans were too paranoid to actively expand without direct provocation, and the other AQ powers like the Ferengi etc. were simply not strong enough.

[The Romulan Republic]

Honestly, the Federation/Klingon/Romulan alliance seemed to have the Dominion on the ropes (albeit thanks to Cardassians switching sides, in part) with or without the bioweapon against the Changelings.

Now, if the wormhole had stayed open, it might have been a different story.

[Adam Reynolds]

Could the Empire even still build a Death Star in this scenario? My guess is no. Unless we magically let it work, they would not have the neither the industrial capacity nor firepower for it to be possible.

As for the scenario, while the Empire is more militaristic than the Federation, there is a strong indication that they are rather under militarized compared to what they could be. Given the fact that they saw no direct outside threat, their fleet numbers are tiny per capita. Especially when one considers the problem of loyalty to the Emperor, especially without a Death Star. If the Rebel Alliance still exists I can see them gaining aid from the Federation.

In other words, if you make them both the same size because reasons, the Empire doesn't win all that easily. How surprising.

[Rhadamantus]

In this, the Empire would have 200 or so ISDs, and the Death Stars would be replaced with Eclipses. The Empire is more militaristic, but the Federation has fought actual wars within living memory.

[APlayerHater]

Could the Empire even still build a Death Star in this scenario? My guess is no. Unless we magically let it work, they would not have the neither the industrial capacity nor firepower for it to be possible.

Well, the first order was able to build starkiller base even given the very limited resources we can assume it had (?)
Although if you're saying the empire wouldn't have the 'technology' necessary to create a death star if dragged down to Trek level, then yeah they probably wouldn't be able to build that. -On the other hand, I've been assured that the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force.

The empire's lack of replicators and transporters become a more serious problem in this scenario I suspect. The federation also has superior cloning technology (or, at least, a less advanced civilization based on a lost earth colony had this technology) being able to create full adult clones seemingly in a matter of days or even hours; although the federation itself would probably never use this technology. Without huge populations to draw stormtroopers from maybe the empire would fall back on using clones? Who knows. I'm trying to think of exotic technology that's common in the setting, and wouldn't be effected by the nerf.

I'd say their droids are inferior to Data, but the Empire has sentient/sapient droids everywhere, and as so commonplace that a fluke like Data doesn't really factor in at all. Droids could pose a serious advantage, especially if their personalized shielding and stealth technology is still canon. Droid armies? Although in Trek controlling the airspace above a planet usually seems to be enough to have 'won'. I'm not a strategy/tactics person, but other than to occupy territory you already control anyway via dominating the airspace (space space?) I don't see much use for a ground army. I don't seem to recall Trek planets employing planetary shields the way Wars planets did.

-Also, I never watched voyager but I do remember them using mobile holo-emitters in order to make holograms who could hold pickaxes and mine. This seems incredibly stupid to me, but I guess this is Trek and they never seem to have to factor in the costs of fueling their ships. So I guess they just have access to infinite energy? Voyager seemed to get by easily enough on its own for 7 years, although I think they occasionally did need to meet some convenient traders and refuel when the plot of the episode demanded it. -Anyway, are mobile holograms superior to droids? And is it possible to mass produce them to create an army? (I'm sure you could make holograms of something deadlier than Robert Picardo. And skip the actual hologram part and just do mobile forcefield emitters so your holograms can be invisible shapeshifters as well. Although I think the voyager staff forgot that forcefields were supposed to give hologram characters their physical presence)

[APlayerHater]

The Empire still wins, because they have a functioning military culture used to large-scale war planning and ruthless enough to use planetary bombardment as a bargaining chip.

Being ruthless and engaging in the kind of stuff even Romulans would turn up their nose at just seems like a good way to get the Alpha quadrant powers to gang up on you.

[Elheru Aran]

In this, the Empire would have 200 or so ISDs, and the Death Stars would be replaced with Eclipses. The Empire is more militaristic, but the Federation has fought actual wars within living memory.

You do know that so has the Empire, right? Well, technically I suppose it was the Old Republic, but the Clone Wars are definitely 'within living memory' for much of the Empire, and the way current canon is starting to look, it hasn't been all peace and quiet between ROTS and ANH.

[APlayerHater]

The way AOTC/ROTS make it seem like acquiring Darth Vader and building the Deathstar are both vitally important to the emperor's plans in creating the empire, it kind of makes me wonder if the Empire would exist in the same state it does in ANH with a more limited technology budget.

Without a Deathstar to bully people into obeying him, and with enemies existing clearly all around the mini SWG in Trek Space, would Palpatine have seen it wise to destroy the jedi order? And would he even need the trade federation's influence to sieze power? Just replace the trade federation with the Dominion or the Borg to get your emergency powers, and keep those powers because enemies really do surround and threaten the Empire at all times. -Redo the clone wars with the dominion or the borg as the aggressors, and this super peaceful ally to the Federation becomes a xenophobic enemy.

We might see an empire where Palpatine tried to dominate and corrupt the Jedi instead of kill them all. I know Rule of Two is supposed to be in effect, but the cartoon shows make it look like he had dozens of sith servants all over the place. (admittedly I haven't watched them so if anyone wants to correct me that's fine.)

Would the human-centric empire try to merge with or annex earth? Starfleet at the very least seems to be predominantly human. And can we assume that the SWG section of the galaxy has also been around for thousands of generations at about the same tech level? Maybe the star warsian technology is more effective against assimilation or the borg or something.

-I know the OP specified just a mini empire that exists the way it does in the films, but without a deathstar around to crush rebellion in the senate, and with un-annexed space and powerful alien factions around them everywhere, I feel like they would at least hire a new PR guy to make them seem less evil. -Either that or they would be Space North Korea.

[Rhadamantus]

The way AOTC/ROTS make it seem like acquiring Darth Vader and building the Deathstar are both vitally important to the emperor's plans in creating the empire, it kind of makes me wonder if the Empire would exist in the same state it does in ANH with a more limited technology budget.

Without a Deathstar to bully people into obeying him, and with enemies existing clearly all around the mini SWG in Trek Space, would Palpatine have seen it wise to destroy the jedi order? And would he even need the trade federation's influence to sieze power? Just replace the trade federation with the Dominion or the Borg to get your emergency powers, and keep those powers because enemies really do surround and threaten the Empire at all times. -Redo the clone wars with the dominion or the borg as the aggressors, and this super peaceful ally to the Federation becomes a xenophobic enemy.

We might see an empire where Palpatine tried to dominate and corrupt the Jedi instead of kill them all. I know Rule of Two is supposed to be in effect, but the cartoon shows make it look like he had dozens of sith servants all over the place. (admittedly I haven't watched them so if anyone wants to correct me that's fine.)

Would the human-centric empire try to merge with or annex earth? Starfleet at the very least seems to be predominantly human. And can we assume that the SWG section of the galaxy has also been around for thousands of generations at about the same tech level? Maybe the star warsian technology is more effective against assimilation or the borg or something.

-I know the OP specified just a mini empire that exists the way it does in the films, but without a deathstar around to crush rebellion in the senate, and with un-annexed space and powerful alien factions around them everywhere, I feel like they would at least hire a new PR guy to make them seem less evil. -Either that or they would be Space North Korea.

What? I specified it was in a Globular Cluster in intergalactic space, and they had an Eclipse instead of the Death Star

[APlayerHater]

What? I specified it was in a Globular Cluster in intergalactic space, and they had an Eclipse instead of the Death Star

Well an eclipse is certainly no death star. And you specified that their firepower as greatly reduced, so I can assume that the nerf-eclipse's main gun has similarly been heavily nerfed. In which case, the emperor might have a big ship, but I highly doubt it's the invincible planet-destroying, impossible-to-counter battlestation he had envisioned it to be.

You said the mini SWG was a peer to the alpha quadrant powers, so I assumed they were in contact with the alpha quadrant. The Empire didn't appear to have a bunch of different civilizations, including the Borg and the Dominion, and the Klingons/Federation/Etc as outward threats. The way the Empire was set up the only real threats came from member worlds of the Empire. Hutt space certainly didn't seem officially recognized, or a major player in any of the goings on.

[The Romulan Republic]

What? I specified it was in a Globular Cluster in intergalactic space, and they had an Eclipse instead of the Death Star

Well an eclipse is certainly no death star. And you specified that their firepower as greatly reduced, so I can assume that the nerf-eclipse's main gun has similarly been heavily nerfed. In which case, the emperor might have a big ship, but I highly doubt it's the invincible planet-destroying, impossible-to-counter battlestation he had envisioned it to be.

You said the mini SWG was a peer to the alpha quadrant powers, so I assumed they were in contact with the alpha quadrant. The Empire didn't appear to have a bunch of different civilizations, including the Borg and the Dominion, and the Klingons/Federation/Etc as outward threats. The way the Empire was set up the only real threats came from member worlds of the Empire. Hutt space certainly didn't seem officially recognized, or a major player in any of the goings on.

An Eclipse is actually arguably smarter than a Death Star. Its not as massive/powerful, but the Death Star's main gun is serious overkill. And you can build a lot of Eclipses, presumably, for the cost of a Death Star. Which means you can more readily afford to lose some and they can be in multiple places.

[Simon_Jester]

As a hypothetical, since the actual Empire vs AQ outcome is obvious, what would happen if the Empire was a peer power to the Feddies?
If you turn their galaxy into a globular cluster (such as Omega Centauri), then they'd have about 10 million stars against the AQ's 12 million, and a roughly comparable population if you downsize the ecumenopoli. If we make it so hyperdrive can cross the 40ly radius in a couple days, FTL speeds are around 5000c, which is pretty similar. If we downsize the firepower and power generation specs by 5 or 6 orders of magnitudes, a GCS can pose a challenge to a ISD. This setting wouldn't change the Imperial strategic calculus, and so they'd basically be the Empire of the Thrawn Trilogy. If we take this mini-Empire and connect it to the Federation, what would the more equal fight look like

Hm, as long as you aren't arguing that this is the 'canon' version of Star Wars, I think this makes an interesting challenge. We've had similar discussions in the past (I remember suggesting it once, myself).

In such a 'small' Empire, you could still have things like the Death Star (say, one built to the same scale as an Eclipse-class capital ship, with a superlaser to match)

Could the Empire even still build a Death Star in this scenario? My guess is no. Unless we magically let it work, they would not have the neither the industrial capacity nor firepower for it to be possible.

As for the scenario, while the Empire is more militaristic than the Federation, there is a strong indication that they are rather under militarized compared to what they could be. Given the fact that they saw no direct outside threat, their fleet numbers are tiny per capita. Especially when one considers the problem of loyalty to the Emperor, especially without a Death Star. If the Rebel Alliance still exists I can see them gaining aid from the Federation.

If the Federation wouldn't help the Maquis I doubt they'll help the Rebel Alliance until and unless the Empire actually attacks them. The Prime Directive is a big deal to the Federation and they extend that to favor noninterference in general.

In other words, if you make them both the same size because reasons, the Empire doesn't win all that easily. How surprising.

Well, you certainly lose the main argument popularized on this website, of the Empire winning because it has vastly greater speed, strategic mobility, firepower, and defenses. There's good canon evidence for all those things in my opinion- but take them out of play and the fight becomes far less certain.

What? I specified it was in a Globular Cluster in intergalactic space, and they had an Eclipse instead of the Death Star

Well an eclipse is certainly no death star. And you specified that their firepower as greatly reduced, so I can assume that the nerf-eclipse's main gun has similarly been heavily nerfed. In which case, the emperor might have a big ship, but I highly doubt it's the invincible planet-destroying, impossible-to-counter battlestation he had envisioned it to be.

Thing is, the Death Star superlaser from the movie isn't just powerful enough to wreck worlds, it's powerful enough to spatter them across the sky like a little cardboard globe with a firecracker lit off inside. It is ludicrous overkill for destroying planets, unless of course it is opposed by comparably overpowered planetary shielding.

So if the Eclipse Star or whatever is the only ship in the galaxy with a 'superlaser' whose energy output is in, say, the single digit teraton range... Basically, by shooting at a planet for a few hours such a ship could destroy all life on that planet, because firepower of a few teratons per minute equals on Chicxulub Event worth of destruction per hour. Perhaps worse than that.

And yet such a ship is vastly less powerful, by many many orders of magnitude, than the 'real' Death Star.

So I can easily imagine a setting where starship weapons are normally in the kiloton/second or megaton/second range, but superweapons exist on massive nigh-invincible battle platforms that are a million times more powerful and thus overwhelmingly threatening. In the same sense that heavy battleship guns are more threatening than rifles.




You said the mini SWG was a peer to the alpha quadrant powers, so I assumed they were in contact with the alpha quadrant. The Empire didn't appear to have a bunch of different civilizations, including the Borg and the Dominion, and the Klingons/Federation/Etc as outward threats. The way the Empire was set up the only real threats came from member worlds of the Empire. Hutt space certainly didn't seem officially recognized, or a major player in any of the goings on.[/quote]

[Rhadamantus]

As a hypothetical, since the actual Empire vs AQ outcome is obvious, what would happen if the Empire was a peer power to the Feddies?
If you turn their galaxy into a globular cluster (such as Omega Centauri), then they'd have about 10 million stars against the AQ's 12 million, and a roughly comparable population if you downsize the ecumenopoli. If we make it so hyperdrive can cross the 40ly radius in a couple days, FTL speeds are around 5000c, which is pretty similar. If we downsize the firepower and power generation specs by 5 or 6 orders of magnitudes, a GCS can pose a challenge to a ISD. This setting wouldn't change the Imperial strategic calculus, and so they'd basically be the Empire of the Thrawn Trilogy. If we take this mini-Empire and connect it to the Federation, what would the more equal fight look like

Hm, as long as you aren't arguing that this is the 'canon' version of Star Wars, I think this makes an interesting challenge. We've had similar discussions in the past (I remember suggesting it once, myself).

Yes, but that went off topic.

Well an eclipse is certainly no death star. And you specified that their firepower as greatly reduced, so I can assume that the nerf-eclipse's main gun has similarly been heavily nerfed. In which case, the emperor might have a big ship, but I highly doubt it's the invincible planet-destroying, impossible-to-counter battlestation he had envisioned it to be.

Thing is, the Death Star superlaser from the movie isn't just powerful enough to wreck worlds, it's powerful enough to spatter them across the sky like a little cardboard globe with a firecracker lit off inside. It is ludicrous overkill for destroying planets, unless of course it is opposed by comparably overpowered planetary shielding.

So if the Eclipse Star or whatever is the only ship in the galaxy with a 'superlaser' whose energy output is in, say, the single digit teraton range... Basically, by shooting at a planet for a few hours such a ship could destroy all life on that planet, because firepower of a few teratons per minute equals on Chicxulub Event worth of destruction per hour. Perhaps worse than that.

And yet such a ship is vastly less powerful, by many many orders of magnitude, than the 'real' Death Star.

So I can easily imagine a setting where starship weapons are normally in the kiloton/second or megaton/second range, but superweapons exist on massive nigh-invincible battle platforms that are a million times more powerful and thus overwhelmingly threatening. In the same sense that heavy battleship guns are more threatening than rifles.

Yeah. I'd imagine an ISD puts out about 1.2 gigatons per second (which is still immensely devastating, yet a millionth that of an actual ISD), and the Eclipse Star puts out 7 exatons in a blast (which is enough to melt the crust, and is effectively a BDZ).

[Esquire]

I'd just like to clarify - the Empire occupies... let's say the Epsilon Quadrant, bordering the Federation, has technology roughly comparable to same, and has ~200 ISDs with per-weapon yields equivalent to Galaxy phaser strips and a single Eclipse capable of BDZ-level attacks?

Yeah, the Empire still wins. It's apparently capable of building ten-mile-long warships with mile-long standard heavy combatants. The Eclipse alone can destroy whole Federation fleets on its own; it's got thousands of turbolasers and hundreds of parasite craft. Apart from that, Imperial forces include things like a functional surface arm, which means they win any planetary engagement by default.

[Rhadamantus]

I think that the Federation has 2000ish Galaxy class ships, so that's about 150 ISDs on their own. The Eclipse is big, but it can only hit one place at once. And ground forces are way less important, since shields are strongly nerfed.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Where the hell do you get the Federation having 2000 Galaxy class ships?

[Rhadamantus]

I thought that Mike Wong had estimated that on his website