Rogue One: A Star Wars Story

[NecronLord]

I wonder if that X-Wing was a spare or if Luke booted someone else off the pilot roster. Anyway, given how people whine how SW ships fly like they are in atmosphere, seems Luke's time in a Skyhopper was good enough for Red Leader.

With SW's insane construction speed, I think building an X-Wing isn't a big challenge. It's finding good pilots that is the bigger challenge for the Rebels.

Nowhere did I ever talk about X-Wing construction times. Anyway, the point I was making is that Biggs and Red Leader apparently were willing to trust someone with one of their fighters who had at best flown an atmospheric craft and my quip about spaceships maneuvering as if they're in atmosphere as anti-SWers are not want of saying could very well just mean they've designed them in such a way to reduce such a need for extra training.

Plus, the Skyhopper apparently is in line with canon to have similar controls as the X-Wing if Wookiepedia is still anything to go by.

Frankly, Red Leader knew Luke's Father, at least according to the deleted scenes, so it makes a degree of sense they'd trust Anakin Skywalker's son to take a spare X-wing into a life-or-death fight, if he knows anything about the force being inherited.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I don't recall Thrawn frowning upon any of those things.

The Force user one he did object to. Or at least being led by them; while he was willing to use C'Baoth it was as a tool and he took plenty of precautions to stop C'Baoth trying to take over.

As for the superweapons, he made no effort to try and acquire or build any (as a Grand Admiral, he would at least of known of the Eclipse and possibly the Maw Installation as well.

[Lord Revan]

IIRC (it's been a while since I last read the books) Thrawn's distaste for superweapons was more on the lines of them having limited tactical and strategic flexibility then anything specific on the conscept itself.

Also for C'Baoth was it force users in general or just him as C'Boath didn't so much have few screws loose then most of the screws had fallen off and those that still remained could fall off any moment.

[Galvatron]

The Force user one he did object to. Or at least being led by them; while he was willing to use C'Baoth it was as a tool and he took plenty of precautions to stop C'Baoth trying to take over.

You mean, besides the Emperor?

As for the superweapons, he made no effort to try and acquire or build any (as a Grand Admiral, he would at least of known of the Eclipse and possibly the Maw Installation as well.

Thrawn wasn't privy to a lot things. Most notably, the Emperor's resurrection on Byss. So why should have have known about the resurrected Emperor's flagship?

And the Maw Installation was Tarkin's secret. Only he knew about it. That's why Admiral Daala's fleet remained there for ten years while the Empire fell apart all around her.

[Elheru Aran]

'Fleet'. Wasn't it something silly like only 3 Star Destroyers? (god fuck KJA)

I may be pulling this out of my ass but weren't there implications drawn after the fact that Thrawn *did* know about Byss and the Emperor Reborn, that he was reconquering the New Republic in order to pave the path for Palpatine's return? Or was that just Lucasfilm trying to patch up the ragged-ass mess that Dark Empire made of the continuity?

[Eternal_Freedom]

The Force user one he did object to. Or at least being led by them; while he was willing to use C'Baoth it was as a tool and he took plenty of precautions to stop C'Baoth trying to take over.

You mean, besides the Emperor?

Yes, because Thrawn didn't have much choice with the Emperor. But when he was in charge he made a conscious effort to avoid having FOrce users in control.

As for the superweapons, he made no effort to try and acquire or build any (as a Grand Admiral, he would at least of known of the Eclipse and possibly the Maw Installation as well.

Thrawn wasn't privy to a lot things. Most notably, the Emperor's resurrection on Byss. So why should have have known about the resurrected Emperor's flagship?

And the Maw Installation was Tarkin's secret. Only he knew about it. That's why Admiral Daala's fleet remained there for ten years while the Empire fell apart all around her.

According to some of the OLD EU comics, the half-built Eclipse was used to hold meetings of the Grand Admirals, at least one of which was attended by Thrawn. So yeah, he did know about it. He was privy to a hold of secret information - he knew about Mara Jade's real job for instance.

As for the Maw, fair point.

[NecronLord]

'Fleet'. Wasn't it something silly like only 3 Star Destroyers? (god fuck KJA)

Three star destroyers is a reasonably logical number for baby-sitting a bunch of scientists, really. And she got to be admiral through patronage in the first place.

[Galvatron]

I may be pulling this out of my ass but weren't there implications drawn after the fact that Thrawn *did* know about Byss and the Emperor Reborn, that he was reconquering the New Republic in order to pave the path for Palpatine's return? Or was that just Lucasfilm trying to patch up the ragged-ass mess that Dark Empire made of the continuity?

FWIW, this is the Wookieepedia's citation from the Dark Empire Spourcebook:

While Palpatine was still recovering in his Deep Core stronghold, his former advisors received word (8 ABY) of the arrival, from deep in the Unknown Regions, of the last surviving Grand Admiral. This was the Chiss strategic mastermind Grand Admiral Thrawn, who was armed with a plan he outlined to them that would defeat the New Republic. Heartened by the possibility of wresting back their power from the Rebels, they managed to set aside their differences and grant him overall command of their forces, with an eye toward making him their figurehead emperor once they had a throne back to give him. When Palpatine learned of this, he was genuinely devastated. He had liked Thrawn, as much as he was capable of liking anyone. He had entrusted much to Thrawn's genius, even as he had used that genius for his own ends.

Palpatine's reaction may have to do with whatever role he was planning for Thrawn in his own upcoming offensive, Operation Shadow Hand. If anyone knew all there was to know about Thrawn's activities in the Unknown Regions, Palpatine knew. He had to have known what resources Thrawn commanded. Possibly he was only waiting for the right moment to reveal himself to Thrawn and offer him a place in his revived Empire, as he would soon do with many others, but never did. Instead, he let Thrawn make his bid to defeat the New Republic and, in secret, made every attempt to undermine that campaign. This terrible example of Palpatine's pettiness may have cost him everything. A combined offensive, consisting of his own forces launched from Byss, and Thrawn's launched from Nirauan, would have meant the quick and painful death of the New Republic.

[Eternal_Freedom]

'Fleet'. Wasn't it something silly like only 3 Star Destroyers? (god fuck KJA)

Three star destroyers is a reasonably logical number for baby-sitting a bunch of scientists, really. And she got to be admiral through patronage in the first place.

Actually it was four, but one (Hydra I think) gets taken out before they can leave the Maw.

[Thanas]

I see.

So your theory is that Admiral Rae Sloane, a prominent new character whose arc spans multiple novels, was simply "whacked" and we never heard about it.

Wouldn't be the first time characters disappear when canon is superseded by the EU.

In any case, you are simply of your rockers if you think that Thrawn would ever have founded the first order. Certainly not with incompetents and alien-hating idiots in charge. This is complete nonsense and nobody who has ever read Outbound Flight would think this would be any of Thrawn's designs. Keep in mind that all those who follow Thrawn's philosophy were not found of darksiders and definitely not of Sith. Heck, the empire ultimately founded upon Thrawn's ideals is the hardest enemy of the Sith in Legends.

I don't recall Thrawn frowning upon any of those things.

Then you clearly have a very faulty memory, he was not in favor of having Force users have any influence like that. Force users are a tool to him. Not someboy to lord over you.

[evillejedi]

Plenty of time between Jakku and TFA for Thrawn to get stabbed in the back by someone he thought had unquestionable loyalty. The first order could have risen from the squabbles after that.

TBH I would be more interest in seeing a retelling of Tie Fighter if Thrawn was going to be shown, it would provide a good insiders story to the EMpire from a pilots level, could involve the ISB and eventually move into emperor's hand territory.

[The Romulan Republic]

The Force user one he did object to. Or at least being led by them; while he was willing to use C'Baoth it was as a tool and he took plenty of precautions to stop C'Baoth trying to take over.

You mean, besides the Emperor?

Yes, because Thrawn didn't have much choice with the Emperor. But when he was in charge he made a conscious effort to avoid having FOrce users in control.

To be fair, from what I recall, Thrawn seemed genuinely loyal to Palpatine and his Empire.

Edit: His struggles with C'Baoth just come off more as Thrawn justifiably thinking C'Baoth was incompetent and crazy, rather than an aversion to Force users.

[RogueIce]

Frankly, Red Leader knew Luke's Father, at least according to the deleted scenes, so it makes a degree of sense they'd trust Anakin Skywalker's son to take a spare X-wing into a life-or-death fight, if he knows anything about the force being inherited.

That's actually a pretty good scene, and it seems to be just an alternate take of the one we got in the SE so I wonder why they didn't use that. Footage too damaged perhaps?

Anyway on all this "is the Fleet Admiral really Thrawn" stuff, I am left curious at one thing:

Why are people so determined to shoehorn Thrawn into that position at all?

What would be the downside to having this Fleet Admiral be a whole new character? Really this is one of those things that's really annoying me about SW fans as of late: this seemingly desperate need to keep shoving the old EU into the new at every possible turn. For fuck's sake, they rebooted the Canon, why can't we get some new stuff instead of rehashing the old with the same-but-slightly-different characters? Who the fuck cares if they bring back the name Thrawn, because it won't be the same Thrawn anyway and while some character elements may be retained, at the end of the day it'll be "new guy who's a tactical genius named Thrawn" and really they could just use a new name and not be tied to anything else anyway. Since fans will inevitably start whining and complaining anyway at whatever deviations they take with the character - as observed here with all the "that's not how Thrawn rolls" counterarguments to why the unnamed Fleet Admiral isn't Thrawn.

(no I'm not saying Thanas and the others are "whining and complaining" just that the inevitable deviations from his original characterization will produce such; what's in this thread is a more reasoned form of that which the masses of fanboys will be crying about if they did make him Thrawn)

[Knife]

Amen, the old EU is dead, long live the new EU.

[Galvatron]

For the record, I don't care if it's Thrawn or not. I just find it suspicious that the novel deliberately avoided identifying the fleet admiral, as if doing so would have been a huge reveal.

What baffles me is that Thanas keeps insisting that it can't be Thrawn and I find his reasons to be both poorly thought-out and flimsy.

[The Romulan Republic]

Amen, the old EU is dead, long live the new EU.

I'm all for doing new things. That's the whole bloody point of a reboot to me.

But I'll be honest: their are a very few parts of the old EU I somewhat miss having in canon, and the Grand Admiral is one of them.

[Thanas]

What baffles me is that Thanas keeps insisting that it can't be Thrawn and I find his reasons to be both poorly thought-out and flimsy.

As do I find your reasons why it should be the same, so lets just agree to disagree.

[Galvatron]

Amen, the old EU is dead, long live the new EU.

I'm all for doing new things. That's the whole bloody point of a reboot to me.

But I'll be honest: their are a very few parts of the old EU I somewhat miss having in canon, and the Grand Admiral is one of them.

Which is an opinion shared by many fans and LFL knows it. That's why, despite all of the "that's not how MY Thrawn would act" objections, the LFL Story Group is likely to find a way to reintroduce him back into the new canon if there's enough popular demand.

According to some of the OLD EU comics, the half-built Eclipse was used to hold meetings of the Grand Admirals, at least one of which was attended by Thrawn. So yeah, he did know about it.

Citation please. I can't find any evidence of that in the Wookieepedia.

[Eternal_Freedom]

There is mention in "Byss and the Deep Core" of the Eclipse being used as a meeting place for the Grand Admirals, and there is a picture on the Grad Admiral page of Thrawn and Takel in uniform standing on the bridge of a Star Destroyer-type vessel. I would have sworn the full picture showed Palpatine as well but the full version doesn't seem to be available on the wiki any longer.

[Galvatron]

There is mention in "Byss and the Deep Core" of the Eclipse being used as a meeting place for the Grand Admirals, and there is a picture on the Grad Admiral page of Thrawn and Takel in uniform standing on the bridge of a Star Destroyer-type vessel. I would have sworn the full picture showed Palpatine as well but the full version doesn't seem to be available on the wiki any longer.

You must mean this picture (which I found here), but I can't find any reference to that meeting taking place anywhere near Byss or the Eclipse. Is "Byss and the Deep Core" the title of a comic book issue?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'm not sure, but thanks for finding that. I'll concede the point about Thrawn knowing about the Eclipse, though since she was being build over Fondor right up until shortly after the Battle of Endor, I'd be bloody surprised if he didn't know of it.

[NecronLord]

Krishna Galv, can't you google? Yes, it's a WotC roleplaying supplement that was released online.

Source

The Eclipse

In construction for almost as long as either Death Star, the Eclipse is a massive capital ship orbiting the planet Byss. Almost unimaginable in length and unparalleled in firepower, the Eclipse is the largest Star Destroyer ever built, dwarfing the Super Star Destroyers and bearing within its arsenal a superlaser capable of cracking the crust of most planets. The interior of the Eclipse resembles the interior of a Star Destroyer, but also contains docking bays and repair facilities like those found on space platforms. An orbital battlestation in its own right, meetings between the Grand Admirals and other important business of the Imperial Navy take place in one of the many war rooms aboard the massive capital ship. The Eclipse is a permanent fixture in the skies above Byss, an imposing visage and display of the Imperial Navy's might.

Given that other information dates around the time of the Shadow Hand campaign, it's presumably referring to new Grand Admirals appointed by clone-palpatine, rather than the originals, though. Or possibly it implies that some of them survived unknown to the Republic (Afsheen Makati?) and joined up with the Emperor on Byss.

[Galvatron]

Krishna Galv, can't you google? Yes, it's a WotC roleplaying supplement that was released online.

Of course, but I generally stick to the Wookieepedia since they tend to compile sources like that pretty well into a fairly comprehensive repository of information. Besides, I think you're right about the context referring to the time after Thrawn's death which would make the point rather moot.

Besides, the Eclipse was apparently stolen four year after the Battle of Yavin, then abandoned, then recovered by the reborn Emperor's forces. Even if Thrawn knew about it, it may not have been available to him during his campaign anyway.

[Iroscato]

Thrawn was a Chiss wasn't he? The guy in the trailer looks decidedly human. Maybe he'll be a 'Thrawn in all but name' type, unless they pull a Star Trek Into Darkness/Spectre and have him announce himself as Thrawn accompanied by BWUUUUUM music.

[Batman]

The guy in the trailer also didn't wear a Grand Admiral's uniform.