How will the story progress in EP 8 and 9?

[ray245]

Uhm, whether or not the Force awoke and worked through Rey, she obviously is not fully trained, and just like Ren, would have her clocked cleaned by an PT Jedi. She was able to defeat a half trained boy with poor control, who was wounded and emotionally conflicted. It was a good feat, don't get me wrong, but hardly an example of her being tip top master.

It was showing she was powerful, not well trained or educated on what that power was or could do. There lies the character growth potential. Just like the OT, the way you use power/wisdom/force is more important to your character than what power level you started out as.

All we saw in TFA was when Ren did the Jedi mind meld, it went both ways and she could read him too, when they fought, she with some basic melee skills was able to tap into the force with the whole 'be everything around you' bit and was able to outfight the wounded half trained spaz boy. Those are all basic Jedi skills shown in other movies.

Luke showed similar potential with the training droid, blocking laser shots, in fact I would say that blocking those bolts was more impressive than blocking sword strikes especially since she had some experience in melee fighting. Luke showed more in ESB with his training when he was able to see further into the future and lift a space fighter, albeit only a little before he gave up.

That being said, Younglings in the PT were shown with similar skill sets. So congratulations, your insta Jedi Master Rey is about on par with the beginners in ROTS. She has plenty of room to grow.

I highly doubt younglings in the PT could easily defeat Kylo Ren. Moreover, Rey at her current stage is better than Luke in ESB. She could practically do everything Luke could do.

He was the main antagonist of this movie, what makes you think he is the main antagonist of the series? What makes you think his character will not advance along with Rey's?

If he's not the main antagonist, then that would mean he is merely going to be sidelined in the future movies.

Luke SHOULD be the same nitch as Yoda was in the OT. He is the 'old wise master' role. The 'fix my mistakes' character. Just like Yoda. Luke WAS the main character in the OT, but I'm not sure why you thought the NT would be the continuation of his story? It's obviously not. Which is why I mentioned earlier that he is a transitional character, to move from OT to NT.

Except it can't be thanks to the set-up. Luke will have to play a more active role or otherwise the entire plot of TFA makes less sense. Leia sent her best pilot for the sake of finding out where Luke is. The whole plot of TFA revolves around finding Luke and suggesting he is crucial to the fight against the First Order. He can't be Yoda because he is a lot more central to the story.

ESB was not a story about finding Yoda, or at the least finding Yoda is not the most important plot in ESB.

Is that why you are so mad at the NT, you wanted the continuing story of Luke Skywalker?

No. I want a story that either focuses on telling a story which Luke is less relevant to the plot (easily done in many of the old EU books), or a story that makes Luke the main protagonist. I do not want a movie series that cannot make up its mind about who they really want to focus on.

No it doesn't, especially if you have a multi movie arc, you need a weaker villain for a weaker hero, but they both get stronger as the arc progresses so that it's more reasonable for the hero to both still be alive after the initial fight and win the last fight.

The villain must be able to threaten the hero even if he/she is weak. Without that, there is no tension left in the story.

While I have no problem with Maul, plenty of fans despised him for being a cheap cutout character with no depth. He was more or less disposable in TPM. Palpatine is the antagonist in the PT with good depth and he actually got more powerful in the story arc, not force power wise, but political power and influence wise. He made Vader and is sure as shit as cool, just sneaky black wizard cool to Vader's black knight cool.

Which is why I say creating a whiny Vader wannable is not necessary, nor ideal to storytelling. It's an interesting concept, but it doesn't work well narratively.

His character is the flip side of the decisions the Luke had to make. He wants to be evil and is resisting the light. That's actually pretty interesting and I'm sorry you just want a big bad meanie to beat up the good guys. His character has plenty of room to grow and that's a good thing.

Stop strawmanning my points. I am saying he needs to be threatening, regardless of his backstory. He could have the same backstory AND be more threatening to the heroes at the same time. I should fear Kylo Ren while watching the movie. That is a job for a villain.

Again, I see you're butthurt that this isn't the continuing story of Luke Skywalker's adventures. It's not. He's old and now a support character to move you from the old cast to the new.

I don't mind him moving on as a elder figure. However, the story set-up must be structured in a way which would ensure Luke does not overshadow the new characters. If we have a story about Luke's padawan for many years going on his/her own journey, Luke can easily remain in the background. Instead, with a story that focuses on the disappearance of Luke, he became far more important to the plot than he needs to be.

He's more important to the plot in the ST than Obi-Wan in the OT. The only way to avoid that would be killing Luke off 20 mins into the movie, which I highly doubt will happen.

Will Rey have the same plot points of Luke? Not sure, hope not.

JJ Abrams seems to be doing that in TFA. They can't even make the planet of Rey looks a little different from Tatootine. Even growing up in a snow planet would makes things a little different.

Will Rey have the same themes as a growing hero with hard choices? Absolutely and that isn't a bad thing, it the whole set up of the genre.

I don't mind a story about a hero growing up. What I do mind is a story which doesn't strive to be anything different. A story of Luke's first student taking a student for herself would be interesting and be a form of "growing up". There's so many ways to play with such a story and they chose the least unoriginal story for the ST.

It's like reading a story of Harry Potter's son fighting the new dark lord.

[Knife]

I highly doubt younglings in the PT could easily defeat Kylo Ren. Moreover, Rey at her current stage is better than Luke in ESB. She could practically do everything Luke could do.

Youngling's were blocking laser bolts from probe with lightsabers just like Luke was in ANH. Luke blocking those blasts are more impressive than someone who already has experience in melee fighting blocking incoming attacks from a melee weapon. Younglings>Luke>Rey.

At the end of ROTS, a young padawan that looks 10-12 years old took on a squad of clone troopers (I count 7 on screen) and blocked blaster bolts and killed at least 3 of the troopers before going down in front of Bail Organa. These are combat troopers, been in the war, fought with Jedi and know their tactics and skills and a kid took half of them. More impressive than Rey and Luke in ANH. Luke had to use a blaster to kill Stormtroopers in ANH not a lightsaber. So... Jedi kid>Rey>Luke.

Objectively, Rey is not this Mary Sue you think she is. I think you have some confirmation bias going on.

If he's not the main antagonist, then that would mean he is merely going to be sidelined in the future movies.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. He could be redeemed (I hope not) and be a good guy. He could fall further and be the series antagonist (I would prefer this), or be sidelined.

So what?

Except it can't be thanks to the set-up. Luke will have to play a more active role or otherwise the entire plot of TFA makes less sense. Leia sent her best pilot for the sake of finding out where Luke is. The whole plot of TFA revolves around finding Luke and suggesting he is crucial to the fight against the First Order. He can't be Yoda because he is a lot more central to the story.

Er... no. I don't see where you get that. Rey could easily train on (planet Luke) and go off and fight at the end of Ep. VIII and leave the old master behind just like Luke did in ESB. Hell, Luke could go with her like an Obi-Wan and live/die to continue the plot. Either way, the story is about Rey's adventure and growth, not Luke's.

Leia sent R2 to LOOK for Obi-Wan in ANH, the movie is sure as shit not about Obi-Wan. The plot has Luke be a McGuffin to end the First Order in the new movie, he isn't central, as we find out that other people can do it too. Luke is the old wise Master who they thought they needed but found out they could do it themselves. Luke is important because he is old wisdom and knowledge for Rey, not that he was going to come in lightsaber swinging and kill Snoke and Ren.

ESB was not a story about finding Yoda, or at the least finding Yoda is not the most important plot in ESB.

Indeed, and TFA isn't about finding Luke anymore than the OT was about finding Obi-Wan or getting the Deathstar plans, or finding Yoda, or saving the galaxy, it was about the growth of Luke. It's about the growth and discovery of the Rey character.

No. I want a story that either focuses on telling a story which Luke is less relevant to the plot (easily done in many of the old EU books), or a story that makes Luke the main protagonist. I do not want a movie series that cannot make up its mind about who they really want to focus on.

I don't know how much less relevant he could be, he was in the movie for like 30 seconds and didn't even speak a word.

The villain must be able to threaten the hero even if he/she is weak. Without that, there is no tension left in the story.

Er... he captured her, imprisoned her, tortured her, Jedi mind fucked her, chased her, killed her friend/injured her friend, and was beating her in a fight until providence stepped in and saved her. All that while being a 'weak' character.

I'm not even sure we watched the same movie at this point.

Which is why I say creating a whiny Vader wannable is not necessary, nor ideal to storytelling. It's an interesting concept, but it doesn't work well narratively.

To you.

Not saying it was perfect, but I think it worked. Subjective tastes and all.

Stop strawmanning my points. I am saying he needs to be threatening, regardless of his backstory. He could have the same backstory AND be more threatening to the heroes at the same time. I should fear Kylo Ren while watching the movie. That is a job for a villain.

WTF, who's strawmanning. I'm explaining something to you but you just don't want to hear it. Your interpretation, while valid to you, comes off as whiny and dumb to me and others in this thread. That's not a strawman. Explaining my interpretation and you not liking it is not a strawman.

Kylo Ren attacked and destroyed 3 civilian places the hero's were at during the movie and ordered the death of and/or killed himself quite a few people. He tortured two of the main cast and killed his own father. Shit dude, what is your idea of threatening?

I don't mind him moving on as a elder figure. However, the story set-up must be structured in a way which would ensure Luke does not overshadow the new characters. If we have a story about Luke's padawan for many years going on his/her own journey, Luke can easily remain in the background. Instead, with a story that focuses on the disappearance of Luke, he became far more important to the plot than he needs to be.

He's more important to the plot in the ST than Obi-Wan in the OT. The only way to avoid that would be killing Luke off 20 mins into the movie, which I highly doubt will happen.

What movie did you watch again? The one I watched had him in it for 30 seconds and didn't say a word.

JJ Abrams seems to be doing that in TFA. They can't even make the planet of Rey looks a little different from Tatootine. Even growing up in a snow planet would makes things a little different.

I partially agree with you here. I didn't want to see Tatooine again, so making a Tatooine with a different name didn't work for me either.

I don't mind a story about a hero growing up. What I do mind is a story which doesn't strive to be anything different. A story of Luke's first student taking a student for herself would be interesting and be a form of "growing up". There's so many ways to play with such a story and they chose the least unoriginal story for the ST.

It's like reading a story of Harry Potter's son fighting the new dark lord.

It was in form pretty close to ANH, I'm not denying that and I get you didn't like the movie, the characters, the plot, the themes, the director, the janitor, or the guy who went and bought sandwiches for the cast. We get it.

But a lot of the shit you're bitching about isn't what happened. Your judgment on this seems to be skewed by your bias.

[ray245]

Youngling's were blocking laser bolts from probe with lightsabers just like Luke was in ANH. Luke blocking those blasts are more impressive than someone who already has experience in melee fighting blocking incoming attacks from a melee weapon. Younglings>Luke>Rey.

At the end of ROTS, a young padawan that looks 10-12 years old took on a squad of clone troopers (I count 7 on screen) and blocked blaster bolts and killed at least 3 of the troopers before going down in front of Bail Organa. These are combat troopers, been in the war, fought with Jedi and know their tactics and skills and a kid took half of them. More impressive than Rey and Luke in ANH. Luke had to use a blaster to kill Stormtroopers in ANH not a lightsaber. So... Jedi kid>Rey>Luke.

Objectively, Rey is not this Mary Sue you think she is. I think you have some confirmation bias going on.

Learning to block blasters is not the same as defeating someone who has spent years training to be a Jedi/Sith. It's like saying knowing how to drive equates to being able to match up against a semi-professional racer.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. He could be redeemed (I hope not) and be a good guy. He could fall further and be the series antagonist (I would prefer this), or be sidelined.

So what?

Then we end up having the same problems as the prequels if he is sidelined. Villains are mere speedbumps to the protagonists, as opposed to a threat.

Except it can't be thanks to the set-up. Luke will have to play a more active role or otherwise the entire plot of TFA makes less sense. Leia sent her best pilot for the sake of finding out where Luke is. The whole plot of TFA revolves around finding Luke and suggesting he is crucial to the fight against the First Order. He can't be Yoda because he is a lot more central to the story.

Er... no. I don't see where you get that. Rey could easily train on (planet Luke) and go off and fight at the end of Ep. VIII and leave the old master behind just like Luke did in ESB. Hell, Luke could go with her like an Obi-Wan and live/die to continue the plot. Either way, the story is about Rey's adventure and growth, not Luke's.

Then the whole set-up about Luke going into hiding is pretty much useless. This is a setting where Jedi are actively welcomed by one major galatic power, and has no need to spend his time in hiding. If the ST is about rebuilding the Jedi order, then it cannot simply be about Rey defeating Snoke.

Leia sent R2 to LOOK for Obi-Wan in ANH, the movie is sure as shit not about Obi-Wan The plot has Luke be a McGuffin to end the First Order in the new movie, he isn't central, as we find out that other people can do it too. Luke is the old wise Master who they thought they needed but found out they could do it themselves. Luke is important because he is old wisdom and knowledge for Rey, not that he was going to come in lightsaber swinging and kill Snoke and Ren.

Except that isn't her main mission in ANH. It's only with the capture of her ship that she asked her droids to pass the Death Star plans to Obi-Wan. The entire focus of ANH was about the Death Star. Obi-Wan is simply a character recruited to help the rebels. If there was any other Rebel agents on Tatootine, Leia probably would have asked them instead of Obi-Wan.

TFA is different in a sense, because this is about finding Luke to reestablish the Jedi. All the characters mentioned that they need to find Luke and reestablish the Jedi in order to defeat the First Order. The Resistance wanted to find Luke even before they found out about Rey.

Indeed, and TFA isn't about finding Luke anymore than the OT was about finding Obi-Wan or getting the Deathstar plans, or finding Yoda, or saving the galaxy, it was about the growth of Luke. It's about the growth and discovery of the Rey character.

Read the opening crawl of TFA. It's about finding Luke and bringing him out of hiding to help the Rebels. Luke staying away would have defeated the whole point of TFA. Finding and bringing back Luke is as important as the mission to bring the Death Star plans to the Rebels. It's why he could not be hidden away.

Obi-Wan in ANH was just a bonus for Leia. It doesn't matter in the end if Obi-Wan wasn't recruited, as long as the plans are brought to the Rebels.

I don't know how much less relevant he could be, he was in the movie for like 30 seconds and didn't even speak a word.

Yet his presence overshadowed the entire movie. Everyone was talking about how important Luke and the Jedi was to the Republic/Resistance.

Er... he captured her, imprisoned her, tortured her, Jedi mind fucked her, chased her, killed her friend/injured her friend, and was beating her in a fight until providence stepped in and saved her. All that while being a 'weak' character.

I'm not even sure we watched the same movie at this point.

And the ending pretty much eliminated whatever fear presence he had over Rey. Rey resisted the Jedi mind trick, escaped right under his nose very easily and learnt to beat him in a duel in a matter of minutes. Hardly the mark of a strong character. And the only reason Rey did not kill Kylo right on the spot was because she was distracted by the planet exploding.

To you.

Not saying it was perfect, but I think it worked. Subjective tastes and all.

Do you think there will be an "oh shit" moment if Kylo Ren appeared in front of Rey? In ESB, Luke coming face to face with Vader was a scene full of dramatic tension, because we all suspect Luke might not be able to win in a fight against Vader.

Being able to create this kinds of moments is something I hope to seek in all SW movies, and I doubt this is something that's subjective.

WTF, who's strawmanning. I'm explaining something to you but you just don't want to hear it. Your interpretation, while valid to you, comes off as whiny and dumb to me and others in this thread. That's not a strawman. Explaining my interpretation and you not liking it is not a strawman.

You are attacking me for saying that I hated Kylo Ren because of his backstory. That is something I did not say. I said he was a bad villian because he isn't threatening.

Kylo Ren attacked and destroyed 3 civilian places the hero's were at during the movie and ordered the death of and/or killed himself quite a few people.

A bunch of defeated civilians and unarmed old men. Is that something really scary? The only threatening thing he did was to stop the blaster from hitting him.

He tortured two of the main cast and killed his own father. Shit dude, what is your idea of threatening?

Han was walking to him unarmed and taken by surprise that Kylo killed him. He found it challenging to face off against a stormtrooper that may or may not have any force sensitivity. Seriously, you have a really threshold of what is threatening as a villain.

What movie did you watch again? The one I watched had him in it for 30 seconds and didn't say a word.

A movie with an opening crawl that spelt out how important Luke was? Like Silence of the Lambs, a character does not need to be on-screen to have his presence felt throughout the movie. Same applies to movies like Jaws.

I partially agree with you here. I didn't want to see Tatooine again, so making a Tatooine with a different name didn't work for me either.

And this is the reason why I do not trust the creative minds at Disney. Anyone who is a little bit more adventurous and ambitious with storytelling would have told JJ to do something different.

You could EASILY create Jakku with destroyed warships in any other kind of setting. The planet could be all green for all I care and the story would still work.

It was in form pretty close to ANH, I'm not denying that and I get you didn't like the movie, the characters, the plot, the themes, the director, the janitor, or the guy who went and bought sandwiches for the cast. We get it.

But a lot of the shit you're bitching about isn't what happened. Your judgment on this seems to be skewed by your bias.

My argument was by creating a movie so close to ANH ( abit with some major differences), the writers have limited themselves in the stories they can tell. I think the problems they had in coming up with a decent script for TFA will show itself in subsequent movies.

Let say we have an episode mirroring the Yoda training scene. How long is Rey's training going to last? How much action and tension are we going to experience in the movie? If they did not spend the entire movie on Luke's planet, where are they going to go? What are the things that forcces them to leave the planet? What are the roles for all the other characters? What is Finn going to do in the meantime?

The Yoda training scene worked because ESB spent half the time following Han and Leia. As they were constantly being chased by Imperials, it created dramatic tension for the viewers, and keep people on their toes.

The platform for really creative storytelling is limited.

[Simon_Jester]

Learning to block blasters is not the same as defeating someone who has spent years training to be a Jedi/Sith. It's like saying knowing how to drive equates to being able to match up against a semi-professional racer.

If I shot the professional racer in the gut and left them dealing with the emotional turmoil resulting from murdering their father, perhaps their performance might be... degraded somewhat? Perhaps they would make a fatal mistake, or be unable to take some of the bold risks that they would normally take in order to capitalize on their professionalism.

Yes, yes, I get that Force users are supposed to be INVEENCIBLE, but the canon evidence on that has always been mixed in the EU, with them having massive superheroic power when the Force flows their way, and yet being very much beatable by normals or half-trained apprentices when it doesn't.

So, raw untutored Force power and years of experience with melee weapons manages to beat a severely wounded and half-crazed 'journeyman' * Dark Jedi.

Why is this such a big deal?
__________________

*That is, half way between 'apprentice' and 'master.'

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. He could be redeemed (I hope not) and be a good guy. He could fall further and be the series antagonist (I would prefer this), or be sidelined.

So what?

Then we end up having the same problems as the prequels if he is sidelined. Villains are mere speedbumps to the protagonists, as opposed to a threat.

If another villain is raised up to replace Ren, why is that a problem? If you're complaining about Ren not being badass enough, wouldn't that be an improvement?

Er... he captured her, imprisoned her, tortured her, Jedi mind fucked her, chased her, killed her friend/injured her friend, and was beating her in a fight until providence stepped in and saved her. All that while being a 'weak' character.

I'm not even sure we watched the same movie at this point.

And the ending pretty much eliminated whatever fear presence he had over Rey. Rey resisted the Jedi mind trick, escaped right under his nose very easily and learnt to beat him in a duel in a matter of minutes. Hardly the mark of a strong character. And the only reason Rey did not kill Kylo right on the spot was because she was distracted by the planet exploding.

So yes, when Ren is at a severe disadvantage, Rey can take him. Rey no longer needs to fear Ren. But then... Luke seemed quite willing to fight Vader in Episode V; if he was scared, he showed few signs of it.

So how is it a problem?

The real problem is that Ren, well... isn't Vader. He's not terrifying, he's not consistently badass and composed like Vader. Indeed, that is the entire point of his character, he is a troubled and conflicted villain who lacks the power and dominance of figures like Vader. Hopefully he's scheduled for some character growth, or for replacement/evolution with another, more formidable enemy taking center stage.

Do you think there will be an "oh shit" moment if Kylo Ren appeared in front of Rey? In ESB, Luke coming face to face with Vader was a scene full of dramatic tension, because we all suspect Luke might not be able to win in a fight against Vader.

Being able to create this kinds of moments is something I hope to seek in all SW movies, and I doubt this is something that's subjective.

Agreed. Then again, perhaps Ren trains up or gains hidden advantages, and in their next fight wins. Who knows?

Kylo Ren attacked and destroyed 3 civilian places the hero's were at during the movie and ordered the death of and/or killed himself quite a few people.

A bunch of defeated civilians and unarmed old men. Is that something really scary? The only threatening thing he did was to stop the blaster from hitting him.

Ren's ability to inflict destruction doesn't make him scary? I mean, by that standard, Vader in Episode IV chokes out a prisoner. And beats an old man in a swordfight (and we've never actually seen Obi-Wan fight before this point). And shoots some fighters in the back. Why is Vader scary again?

Oh, right, it's all about the presentation and the context. Which are subject to character growth.

The big difference is that Vader is threatening purely because of his power and malice, whereas Ren is in large part threatening because he is insane, unstable, and potentially very treacherous. They're profoundly different characters.

My argument was by creating a movie so close to ANH ( abit with some major differences), the writers have limited themselves in the stories they can tell. I think the problems they had in coming up with a decent script for TFA will show itself in subsequent movies.

Let say we have an episode mirroring the Yoda training scene. How long is Rey's training going to last? How much action and tension are we going to experience in the movie? If they did not spend the entire movie on Luke's planet, where are they going to go? What are the things that forcces them to leave the planet? What are the roles for all the other characters? What is Finn going to do in the meantime?

The Yoda training scene worked because ESB spent half the time following Han and Leia. As they were constantly being chased by Imperials, it created dramatic tension for the viewers, and keep people on their toes.

The platform for really creative storytelling is limited.

Poe and/or Finn can go off and do anything. Luke can return from seclusion and train Rey somewhere that isn't an isolated world in the middle of nowhere. Leia can go off and try to enlist allies for the Resistance and/or get involved in New Republic politics again in the wake of the Hosnian attack.

Empire Strikes Back was driven by the twin elements of Luke training in isolation, and Leia/Han being on the run from the Empire until they are finally run down and captured.

Episode VIII doesn't have to keep either of those elements.

[ray245]

If I shot the professional racer in the gut and left them dealing with the emotional turmoil resulting from murdering their father, perhaps their performance might be... degraded somewhat? Perhaps they would make a fatal mistake, or be unable to take some of the bold risks that they would normally take in order to capitalize on their professionalism.

If the professional driver is so handicapped that anyone could beat him, then what is the point of watching the race? There's no adversary for either of the participants.

Yes, yes, I get that Force users are supposed to be INVEENCIBLE, but the canon evidence on that has always been mixed in the EU, with them having massive superheroic power when the Force flows their way, and yet being very much beatable by normals or half-trained apprentices when it doesn't.

So, raw untutored Force power and years of experience with melee weapons manages to beat a severely wounded and half-crazed 'journeyman' * Dark Jedi.

Why is this such a big deal?
__________________

*That is, half way between 'apprentice' and 'master.'

There's no sense of challenge for any of the characters? Good stories is about characters overcoming challenges, which can be in many forms. An injured Kylo fighting against a Jedi Master? That would be interesting because it is about Ren trying to overcome the sheer amount of challenge he faced. Ren facing against an untrained force user? Not as dramatic for both duelist.

If another villain is raised up to replace Ren, why is that a problem? If you're complaining about Ren not being badass enough, wouldn't that be an improvement?

Then Kylo Ren as a character just wasted half a movie. In a film format where you have limited time to tell a story, you should not waste any character development time.

So yes, when Ren is at a severe disadvantage, Rey can take him. Rey no longer needs to fear Ren. But then... Luke seemed quite willing to fight Vader in Episode V; if he was scared, he showed few signs of it.

So how is it a problem?

Because we as the audience would not find it that scary for Rey in the second time they fight? You are scared for Luke because you know by the end of Ep 4, Vader is someone that could best a Jedi Master. You will question whether Luke can even survive the fight.

The real problem is that Ren, well... isn't Vader. He's not terrifying, he's not consistently badass and composed like Vader. Indeed, that is the entire point of his character, he is a troubled and conflicted villain who lacks the power and dominance of figures like Vader. Hopefully he's scheduled for some character growth, or for replacement/evolution with another, more formidable enemy taking center stage.

You can create a character that is less terrifying than Vader and still be a source of fear for the viewers. Plenty of writers have created villians in Star Wars EU that retain an element of terror for the protagonist. Let's say we saw a fleet commanded by Thrawn. That alone could make anyone familar with the character to worry for our heroes.

I disagree with the concept of trying to make an unterrifying villain just because you can never match Lucas in creating Vader.

Agreed. Then again, perhaps Ren trains up or gains hidden advantages, and in their next fight wins. Who knows?

Doesn't matter. The sense of fear is gone thanks to the final duel in TFA.

Ren's ability to inflict destruction doesn't make him scary? I mean, by that standard, Vader in Episode IV chokes out a prisoner. And beats an old man in a swordfight (and we've never actually seen Obi-Wan fight before this point).

It's not like Obi-Wan is presented as weak. Remember this is a a character that could easily hold his own in a bar fight despite his age, with excellent reflexes. Obi-Wan was never protrayed as a weak old man, but a rather badass character in ANH.

And shoots some fighters in the back. Why is Vader scary again?

Because he easily destroyed fighters after fighters, and no one could outmaneuver him?

Oh, right, it's all about the presentation and the context. Which are subject to character growth.

Kylo Ren had pretty horrible presentation as a villian. If not, no one would be talking about him being unterrifying and a mere Vader wannabe.

The big difference is that Vader is threatening purely because of his power and malice, whereas Ren is in large part threatening because he is insane, unstable, and potentially very treacherous. They're profoundly different characters.

The Joker in TDK is even more insane, and he is far more scary as a villain than Kylo Ren.

Poe and/or Finn can go off and do anything. Luke can return from seclusion and train Rey somewhere that isn't an isolated world in the middle of nowhere. Leia can go off and try to enlist allies for the Resistance and/or get involved in New Republic politics again in the wake of the Hosnian attack.

Empire Strikes Back was driven by the twin elements of Luke training in isolation, and Leia/Han being on the run from the Empire until they are finally run down and captured.

Episode VIII doesn't have to keep either of those elements.

And we run in the exact problem I was talking about earlier. If Luke train Rey after returning for seculsion, then it once again becomes a story about Luke's journey. He becomes an active character with a story-arc of his own, and a background setting that thrust him into the very center of the narrative.

The only way for Luke to be a Yoda-like character is to ensure he does not leave the planet. The second he does, he will definitely overshadow Rey.

[SilverDragonRed]

This thread made me reflect on the film, and I came to two conclusions because of it.

One is that Luke Skywalker has been turned into a Mary Sue. Consider that from the opening crawl, the whole movie (aside from that weird SKB excursion) was about finding Luke. It was the driving force, the inciting motivation and incident, and the reason for Rey leaving that shithole of a planet. Outside of a few moments (most of which involve Ren), Luke is the black hole for which nearly the entire film is drawn towards. Rey may have the outward appearance of a Mary Sue (which is debatable), but Luke definitely qualifies as one.

Second is the ultimate problem with Ren. The way I see it, he was designed to a be foil-style of villain for the main character. The problem comes in with Rey not really having a character. Sure, she has the desire to wait for her father on the shithole planet, but outside of that she only has a list of character traits. So Ben Ren has nothing to work with, and for a sorta-strong character like him he needs something other than an undefined person to bounce off of.

So, here a small list of things I think has to happen in the next film for there to be any suspense:
1) The FO must prove their Neo-Nazi fanatic might against the NR.
2) Rey must be outshone in something (even if it is Poe beating her at a practice dogfight).
3) Rey must grow a character.
4) Rey must be decisively beaten by Ben Ren.

[Knife]

Learning to block blasters is not the same as defeating someone who has spent years training to be a Jedi/Sith. It's like saying knowing how to drive equates to being able to match up against a semi-professional racer.

Stop trying to have it both ways man.

Your objection was her feat of beating him. It has been pointed out that he was wounded and half trained, if that considering the feats of the PT Jedi, and having had killed his father and a fight with Fen before he even got to Rey. So blocking the blows of a half trained boy obviously not an expert saber duelist who spent the whole movie making huge overstepping swipes with the weapon, tired and wounded is not as impressive a feat as picking up a lightsaber and blocking laser shots. Especially since we know she is no stranger to melee combat.

All my examples show way younger people doing similar feats, or better, showing an actual classically trained Jedi would wipe the floor with both of them. It's not like Rey fought off Maul or Sidious, that would have been the cheap stuff you are so adamant that this fight was.

Then we end up having the same problems as the prequels if he is sidelined. Villains are mere speedbumps to the protagonists, as opposed to a threat.

Or a change in cast. I mean that has never happened in a movie before, or a Star Wars movie... lol. For this movie, Ren was the main bad guy but who knows, Snoke could jump out and be the main bad guy for the other two movies. Who knows, not me or you. Your complaint here is just speculation.

Then the whole set-up about Luke going into hiding is pretty much useless. This is a setting where Jedi are actively welcomed by one major galatic power, and has no need to spend his time in hiding. If the ST is about rebuilding the Jedi order, then it cannot simply be about Rey defeating Snoke.

For someone who says they want themes and such, you're not that great at picking them up. Luke put himself into isolation for a reason, it is implied because of the massacre at his academy by the Knights of Ren. I've already, in this thread, gone over possibilities on his motivations on that and guilt over his actions or inaction would more than validate a reason why he would 'disappear'. He's not hiding from the Empire like Yoda, he's hiding from himself and his guilt.

Except that isn't her main mission in ANH. It's only with the capture of her ship that she asked her droids to pass the Death Star plans to Obi-Wan. The entire focus of ANH was about the Death Star. Obi-Wan is simply a character recruited to help the rebels. If there was any other Rebel agents on Tatootine, Leia probably would have asked them instead of Obi-Wan.

TFA is different in a sense, because this is about finding Luke to reestablish the Jedi. All the characters mentioned that they need to find Luke and reestablish the Jedi in order to defeat the First Order. The Resistance wanted to find Luke even before they found out about Rey.

It's not the fucking main mission in TFA either. Luke is not the main mission, Rey's journey is. Obi-Wan and the deathstar are NOT the main mission in ANH, Luke's journey is. Again, you really suck at this theme thing you want so badly.

Read the opening crawl of TFA. It's about finding Luke and bringing him out of hiding to help the Rebels. Luke staying away would have defeated the whole point of TFA. Finding and bringing back Luke is as important as the mission to bring the Death Star plans to the Rebels. It's why he could not be hidden away.

Read the opening crawl of ANH, Obi-Wan and getting the Deathstar plans are the main mission, fuck Luke, he's just the POV for the audience. LOL. See, doesn't read right does it? In TFA, they wanted Luke back as a check on the raising power of the First Order, to fight Ren and Snoke. Hey look, our plucky hero's did it without Luke. Guess he really wasn't needed after all. Almost like he was just a plot point to get things rolling.

Obi-Wan in ANH was just a bonus for Leia. It doesn't matter in the end if Obi-Wan wasn't recruited, as long as the plans are brought to the Rebels.

Irony, thy name is Ray.

Yet his presence overshadowed the entire movie. Everyone was talking about how important Luke and the Jedi was to the Republic/Resistance.

Jesus fuck this gets old. Luke was a McGuffin. Fucking google it man.

And the ending pretty much eliminated whatever fear presence he had over Rey. Rey resisted the Jedi mind trick, escaped right under his nose very easily and learnt to beat him in a duel in a matter of minutes. Hardly the mark of a strong character. And the only reason Rey did not kill Kylo right on the spot was because she was distracted by the planet exploding.

At the end of the movie, Snoke told him to come back to finish his training, perhaps by Episode VIII he could be recovered from the gut shot as well. Snark aside, he very well might get training on anti Jedi stuff as well since NOBODY expected to come up against lightsabers and force powers.

Do you think there will be an "oh shit" moment if Kylo Ren appeared in front of Rey? In ESB, Luke coming face to face with Vader was a scene full of dramatic tension, because we all suspect Luke might not be able to win in a fight against Vader.

Being able to create this kinds of moments is something I hope to seek in all SW movies, and I doubt this is something that's subjective.

I really don't think you know what you want or like. If something goes to far off the rails you don't like it because you can't compare it to Episode X, but if it's too close you don't like it because it's been done before.

Ren is NOT the same type of character as Vader. If they did a Rey versus XYZ scene to get that feeling, I believe they'd have to have another character do it with her and not Ren. Not that Ren can't be the villain, he's just not that type of villain.

And it's film/writing/story telling. It's all subjective as far as tastes go.

You are attacking me for saying that I hated Kylo Ren because of his backstory. That is something I did not say. I said he was a bad villian because he isn't threatening.

I'm explaining the character and themes related, could give a shit if you think it's his backstory, his motivations matter. And he did plenty of kill'n to be threatening, you're just butt hurt it's not Vader-ish (but you'd probably bitch it was just a cheap knockoff of Vader if they did)

A bunch of defeated civilians and unarmed old men. Is that something really scary? The only threatening thing he did was to stop the blaster from hitting him.

Yeah, only murdered a score of people for little to no reason and showed straight out that resistance is not possible and their weapons would have no effect on him. Yeah, not scary at all.

Han was walking to him unarmed and taken by surprise that Kylo killed him.

That's not threatening? That doesn't convey a sense of danger or malice?

He found it challenging to face off against a stormtrooper that may or may not have any force sensitivity. Seriously, you have a really threshold of what is threatening as a villain.

I watch and read all sorts of fiction and don't need all my villains to blow up planets to find them threatening. If mine is low, yours might be too high.

A movie with an opening crawl that spelt out how important Luke was? Like Silence of the Lambs, a character does not need to be on-screen to have his presence felt throughout the movie. Same applies to movies like Jaws.

Gone over this, not doing it again.

And this is the reason why I do not trust the creative minds at Disney. Anyone who is a little bit more adventurous and ambitious with storytelling would have told JJ to do something different.

You could EASILY create Jakku with destroyed warships in any other kind of setting. The planet could be all green for all I care and the story would still work.

My argument was by creating a movie so close to ANH ( abit with some major differences), the writers have limited themselves in the stories they can tell. I think the problems they had in coming up with a decent script for TFA will show itself in subsequent movies.

Let say we have an episode mirroring the Yoda training scene. How long is Rey's training going to last? How much action and tension are we going to experience in the movie? If they did not spend the entire movie on Luke's planet, where are they going to go? What are the things that forcces them to leave the planet? What are the roles for all the other characters? What is Finn going to do in the meantime?

The Yoda training scene worked because ESB spent half the time following Han and Leia. As they were constantly being chased by Imperials, it created dramatic tension for the viewers, and keep people on their toes.

The platform for really creative storytelling is limited.

Arguable since they have Rey with Luke at the end of the first movie, they can make her training last for however long they want, unlike the issues with Luke and Yoda in the middle of a movie with other characters in other places shown doing things that should not take very long. Episode VIII could be two years after Episode VII which gives Rey and Ren plenty of time to level up.

And getting Rey off the planet is some mind numbingly easy it's insulting. Fen wakes up, the First Order is on the move and a mission to beat them hinges on her. Ta-da.

[ray245]

Stop trying to have it both ways man.

Your objection was her feat of beating him. It has been pointed out that he was wounded and half trained, if that considering the feats of the PT Jedi, and having had killed his father and a fight with Fen before he even got to Rey. So blocking the blows of a half trained boy obviously not an expert saber duelist who spent the whole movie making huge overstepping swipes with the weapon, tired and wounded is not as impressive a feat as picking up a lightsaber and blocking laser shots. Especially since we know she is no stranger to melee combat.

All my examples show way younger people doing similar feats, or better, showing an actual classically trained Jedi would wipe the floor with both of them. It's not like Rey fought off Maul or Sidious, that would have been the cheap stuff you are so adamant that this fight was.

My objection was not simply about the excuses concocted by the writers to explain how Rey beat Kylo. It's about how they undermined a screen villain by having a Mary-sue defeat him.

Or a change in cast. I mean that has never happened in a movie before, or a Star Wars movie... lol. For this movie, Ren was the main bad guy but who knows, Snoke could jump out and be the main bad guy for the other two movies. Who knows, not me or you. Your complaint here is just speculation.

Of course they could do it, but that does not mean it is a good idea. It will make the ST as a whole suffer from villain decay if they adopted such an approach.

For someone who says they want themes and such, you're not that great at picking them up. Luke put himself into isolation for a reason, it is implied because of the massacre at his academy by the Knights of Ren. I've already, in this thread, gone over possibilities on his motivations on that and guilt over his actions or inaction would more than validate a reason why he would 'disappear'. He's not hiding from the Empire like Yoda, he's hiding from himself and his guilt.

Luke hiding isn't a theme, it's the plot set-up for the series. Furthermore, if you said the theme of the ST was about Luke, doesn't that make him the protagonist?

The theme of a movie must reflect the journey of the protagonist. And if Rey is going to be the main protagonist, then her journey would be the same as Luke.

It's not the fucking main mission in TFA either. Luke is not the main mission, Rey's journey is. Obi-Wan and the deathstar are NOT the main mission in ANH, Luke's journey is. Again, you really suck at this theme thing you want so badly.

The missions or the driving force behind the story is not the same as the themes of the movie. Yes, the story of ANH was about Luke's journey, but his journey was driven by the desire to defeat the empire and bring the DS plans to the Rebels.

Finding Luke/bringing the DS plans was the objective of the protagonist.

Read the opening crawl of ANH, Obi-Wan and getting the Deathstar plans are the main mission, fuck Luke, he's just the POV for the audience. LOL. See, doesn't read right does it? In TFA, they wanted Luke back as a check on the raising power of the First Order, to fight Ren and Snoke. Hey look, our plucky hero's did it without Luke. Guess he really wasn't needed after all. Almost like he was just a plot point to get things rolling.

Then we might as well have an ending where the Rebels didn't find Luke since he is now so important.

Jesus fuck this gets old. Luke was a McGuffin. Fucking google it man.

I know what a McGuffiin is. All I am saying is they chose to make Luke the McGuffin of TFA, and there will be some consequences as a result of this. If they chose to make some story stuff the McGuffin of the story, then the ST would be a very different story.

At the end of the movie, Snoke told him to come back to finish his training, perhaps by Episode VIII he could be recovered from the gut shot as well. Snark aside, he very well might get training on anti Jedi stuff as well since NOBODY expected to come up against lightsabers and force powers

It doesn't matter how much Ren improves in EP 8. Once you destroyed an on-screen presence, you can't rebuild it.

Do you think there will be an "oh shit" moment if Kylo Ren appeared in front of Rey? In ESB, Luke coming face to face with Vader was a scene full of dramatic tension, because we all suspect Luke might not be able to win in a fight against Vader.

Being able to create this kinds of moments is something I hope to seek in all SW movies, and I doubt this is something that's subjective.

I really don't think you know what you want or like. If something goes to far off the rails you don't like it because you can't compare it to Episode X, but if it's too close you don't like it because it's been done before.

For fuck sake, I was bringing up the Vader scene merely to demonstrate how to build a scene in which the villain dominates the screen.

Ren is NOT the same type of character as Vader. If they did a Rey versus XYZ scene to get that feeling, I believe they'd have to have another character do it with her and not Ren. Not that Ren can't be the villain, he's just not that type of villain.

Exactly. He isn't the kind of villain that have ANY on-screen presence threat.

I'm explaining the character and themes related, could give a shit if you think it's his backstory, his motivations matter. And he did plenty of kill'n to be threatening, you're just butt hurt it's not Vader-ish (but you'd probably bitch it was just a cheap knockoff of Vader if they did)

I have no problems with plenty of Star Wars villains that aren't a Vader knock-off. The Emperor was a good SW villain even though he is very different from Vader. Thrawn and many other bad guys in the EU are good villains that really threaten and scare our protagonist well enough.

Of course, anyone with a problem of Kylo Ren MUST be butt-hurt because he isn't Vader.

Yeah, only murdered a score of people for little to no reason and showed straight out that resistance is not possible and their weapons would have no effect on him. Yeah, not scary at all.

And the writers proceed to deconstruct Kylo Ren and constantly remind the audience how un-scary he is.

That's not threatening? That doesn't convey a sense of danger or malice?

Considering Han didn't even want to kill him, that's hardly threatening.

I watch and read all sorts of fiction and don't need all my villains to blow up planets to find them threatening. If mine is low, yours might be too high.

Fuck off. Since when did I say I need a villain to blow up a planet to be threatening? Thrawn never blew up a planet and I still find him a good villian.

Gone over this, not doing it again.

Yeah, because you kept strawmanning me.

Arguable since they have Rey with Luke at the end of the first movie, they can make her training last for however long they want, unlike the issues with Luke and Yoda in the middle of a movie with other characters in other places shown doing things that should not take very long. Episode VIII could be two years after Episode VII which gives Rey and Ren plenty of time to level up.

Good luck with that. They've already said they are making EP 8 take place right after the last scene in TFA.

And getting Rey off the planet is some mind numbingly easy it's insulting. Fen wakes up, the First Order is on the move and a mission to beat them hinges on her. Ta-da.

You really no idea as to what consequences that would bring to the story, don't you? You are constantly switching back and forth between Rey stayinng with Luke and Rey leaving the planet. You aren't addressing the main problem, which is how do you write a story which Luke plays an important role in the story while not overshadowing Rey.

Option 1: Have Luke leave the planet and journey with Rey. The consequences of this would be Luke overshadowing Rey because he is not an active character going though his own story-arc.

Option 2: Have Luke stay on the planet while training Rey. You will end up with a story with no villain is around to threaten them, reducing the overall tension of the movie.

[Khaat]

Episode VIII: Totally Not A Retread
We see Luke do the training set with Rey, teach her that the Jedi Order (PT) had it wrong, and that his studies of the First Jedi Temple have exposed the original teachings that *somethingsomethingmumblemumble*
Paralleling this is Ren's training under Snoak, and his search for Skywalker. Snoak goads Ren into greater barbarity in training: chopping up ewok and gungan children or something.
Meanwhile, Poe, the Resistance, and Finn (fresh outta Bacta - seriously, the stuff works wonders!) are off doing some fight-the-good-fight stuff and get bunched-up against Hux, Phasma, and the First Order, because plot. Finn and Poe get cornered/captured.
Rey gets a vision during training, and faces that same test as Luke in ESB: go to save her friends or sacrifice them. She takes off to rescue them, but Ren is headed the other way and has a showdown with Unca Luke. Luke puts off direct confrontation, trying to explain the revealed teachings to Ren, as Ren bitch-fits his way through everything Luke throws up to stop him. Luke throws out the "strike me down... " line, and Ren does just that.
Rey on the way back from saving her friends gets hit by Luke's passing, gets back in time to see Ren heading out of Jedi-ville. [Yeah, biggest issue is that Rey isn't all that attached to her friend(s) so far.]
Luke says something something something, reveals who she is.
Ren holo-calls Rey and says [something totally infuriating], "you know where to find me".
Cast line up in front of panoramic view totaly not like the end of ESB
Credits

IX: Also Totally Original Stuff
Resistance gets the thumbs-up from the New Republic talking heads, Leia give a rousing speech about stuff and things before launching the attack on the First Order stronghold. The shields are too strong for orbital bombardment so AT-ATs!
Cloaked Rey pulls a totally original move and rescues her friends from Jabba's Palace (yeah, she already did that) the First Order Stronghold of Snoak because we've totally forgotten Rogue One: A Star Wars Tale by now, by disguising herself as a trooper to sneak into the base, and gets the Bespin fight/DSII fight rolled into one against Snoak.
Finn after being freed gets a secondary mission (d3, roll randomly: blow up the generator, lower the shields, clean the latrine), while Poe gets to launch in a stolen fighter in time to join the overhead...
Meanwhile: space battle porn!
Even money on "it's a trap!' or some variant making a cameo.
Ren is "dismissed" when Rey gets to Snoak, Ren instead goes to meditate on grampa's melted helmet and gets a visitation from a Force ghost.
Rey is getting zotted by Snoak until... Ren comes out and joins against Snoak, "my grandfather's destiny was to bring balance to the Force!"
Snoak is defeated, Rey is wary of Ren, but they escape together as the Frst Order base goes up in a ring-splosion LF loves so much.
Credits.

[Simon_Jester]

Episode VIII: Totally Not A Retread
We see Luke do the training set with Rey, teach her that the Jedi Order (PT) had it wrong, and that his studies of the First Jedi Temple have exposed the original teachings that *somethingsomethingmumblemumble*
Paralleling this is Ren's training under Snoak, and his search for Skywalker. Snoak goads Ren into greater barbarity in training: chopping up ewok and gungan children or something.
Meanwhile, Poe, the Resistance, and Finn (fresh outta Bacta - seriously, the stuff works wonders!) are off doing some fight-the-good-fight stuff and get bunched-up against Hux, Phasma, and the First Order, because plot. Finn and Poe get cornered/captured.
Rey gets a vision during training, and faces that same test as Luke in ESB: go to save her friends or sacrifice them. She takes off to rescue them, but Ren is headed the other way and has a showdown with Unca Luke. Luke puts off direct confrontation, trying to explain the revealed teachings to Ren, as Ren bitch-fits his way through everything Luke throws up to stop him. Luke throws out the "strike me down... " line, and Ren does just that.
Rey on the way back from saving her friends gets hit by Luke's passing, gets back in time to see Ren heading out of Jedi-ville. [Yeah, biggest issue is that Rey isn't all that attached to her friend(s) so far.]
Luke says something something something, reveals who she is.
Ren holo-calls Rey and says [something totally infuriating], "you know where to find me".
Cast line up in front of panoramic view totaly not like the end of ESB

I actually like this because while it retreads a lot of the elements of Episode V and has many similar consequences, it is actually very different. Characters making choices that reflect but are deliberately different from the ones in the original series. Luke possibly advising Ren "go, save your friends, though it may cost you dearly," because that's what he did, and partially as a result he gets killed. Phasma and Hux and so on getting a chance to do something cool and impressive (I was kind of disappointed that they have Phasma serve no useful purpose except to make reports to Ren and then get held hostage by one of her own former troopers).

If this is a retread, it's a good retread.

[ray245]

I actually like this because while it retreads a lot of the elements of Episode V and has many similar consequences, it is actually very different. Characters making choices that reflect but are deliberately different from the ones in the original series. Luke possibly advising Ren "go, save your friends, though it may cost you dearly," because that's what he did, and partially as a result he gets killed. Phasma and Hux and so on getting a chance to do something cool and impressive (I was kind of disappointed that they have Phasma serve no useful purpose except to make reports to Ren and then get held hostage by one of her own former troopers).

If this is a retread, it's a good retread.

I don't think it is good for fans who waited decades for an OT sequel to have 3 new movies retreading the same storylines. Anyone can retread a story ( whether they can do a good job is debatable), but it takes a really special talent to produce something very different and creative.

This is why I was so interested in the ST when George announced they will be using his story treatments. I was interested in what's George take on the events after ROTJ, because he tends to go into directions very few fans expect him to. I liked his prequels for depicting a universe very different from what most SW fans are used to.

[Tsyroc]

In one of the novelizations of the prequel trilogy didn't Yoda learn the whole Force ghost schtick from Qui-Gon Jin?

Couldn't Rey have been tapping into some training that she had been getting from one of the various dead Jedi from the previous movies? It's just that it is stuck in her subconscious by the same thing that made her stay on Jakku waiting for her family. Ren did mention that she was having problems sleeping. That might not be anything unusual but given how it appears that her mind has been messed with it could also be related to any number of things. (I guess I'm getting flashbacks to Professor X teaching Ilyana Rasputin English while she slept and have been thinking someone could have been doing that with the Force).

It just seems too convenient that she could do the Jedi mind trick and fight as well as she did against Kylo Ren based solely on being strong in the Force. The initial fighting against Kylo Ren I could buy because of Force potential plus regular experience fighting, but later in the fight she seemed to be using specific lightsaber skills, going for quick stabs instead of just bashing/hacking away. She reminded me of Obi-Wan but I've seen others who thought she fought like Palpatine.

I suppose she could have picked up the basics of the mind trick from very early Jedi training, or maybe some sort of "mind meld" backwash from Ren but I'm leaning towards her having received some sort of additional training after she was stuck on Jakku.



As for some of the rest of the stuff people mention. I like the idea of Ren falling big time and not being redeemed. I also like the idea of him staying mostly dark but deciding to go off on his own. Having him redeemed but having to live down all the horrible stuff he did would also be good, but if they are going to do that I'd like it to go beyond just a couple of movies.

[Knife]

My objection was not simply about the excuses concocted by the writers to explain how Rey beat Kylo. It's about how they undermined a screen villain by having a Mary-sue defeat him.

You keep saying Mary Sue without showing how she is a Mary Sue. That's pretty much what this whole thing is about.

Of course they could do it, but that does not mean it is a good idea. It will make the ST as a whole suffer from villain decay if they adopted such an approach.

They've done it already. So what?

Luke hiding isn't a theme, it's the plot set-up for the series. Furthermore, if you said the theme of the ST was about Luke, doesn't that make him the protagonist?

If you don't understand that the old wise master hiding and needing an apprentice to fix his mistakes is a theme, I seriously don't know what to say. At this point I think I just need to have you define what you are saying so we're on the same track.

The theme of a movie must reflect the journey of the protagonist. And if Rey is going to be the main protagonist, then her journey would be the same as Luke.

Define your terms. Because the sentence above does not equal that in my mind. The 'journey of the protagonist' is a theme but not necessarily forced to replay exactly what Luke did. Rey's journey can be vastly different than Luke's while still fulfilling the theme of a hero's journey.

The missions or the driving force behind the story is not the same as the themes of the movie. Yes, the story of ANH was about Luke's journey, but his journey was driven by the desire to defeat the empire and bring the DS plans to the Rebels.

Finding Luke/bringing the DS plans was the objective of the protagonist.

You're mistaking the hero's journey for a copy of exactly what Luke does in his iteration of a hero's journey. Luke's journey has many themes besides just the standard hero's journey. Luke had the ' live up to his fathers destiny' theme in ANH, and later he got the 'be better than my father' theme. Luke had the 'bear the sin's of my father' theme. These themes don't have to apply to Rey unless they do the 'she's Luke's daughter' bit.

Lots of stories have hero journeys without those other ones attached, Rey doesn't need those ones either. They CAN do them, but don't have to.

Then we might as well have an ending where the Rebels didn't find Luke since he is now so important.

He's a McGuffin and a transitional character from old Star Wars to New Star Wars. If Mark Hamil hadn't been apart of it, they would have to have come up with a reason Skywalker wasn't in the new one. Still doesn't make him a central character. Just a supporting one.

I know what a McGuffiin is. All I am saying is they chose to make Luke the McGuffin of TFA, and there will be some consequences as a result of this. If they chose to make some story stuff the McGuffin of the story, then the ST would be a very different story.

Yeah, the consequences of that is that he isn't a central character and is a supporting character. Big whoop.

And I thought a different story is what you want, is it not?

It doesn't matter how much Ren improves in EP 8. Once you destroyed an on-screen presence, you can't rebuild it.

You CAN'T, just CAN'T. LOL

LOL, what ever man. You're pretty much Eeyore at this point with this subject.

For fuck sake, I was bringing up the Vader scene merely to demonstrate how to build a scene in which the villain dominates the screen.

Seriously, do you want it the same or not. Quit fucking around, pick a side, same or not the same.

Exactly. He isn't the kind of villain that have ANY on-screen presence threat.

Says you. You don't say why, but you do sure keep saying it.

I have no problems with plenty of Star Wars villains that aren't a Vader knock-off. The Emperor was a good SW villain even though he is very different from Vader. Thrawn and many other bad guys in the EU are good villains that really threaten and scare our protagonist well enough.

Sidious was the black wizard to Vader's black knight. Ren isn't that character either. And FUCK Thrawn, you want to talk about bad writing. Win's with writers fiat, gary stu, crap character. I hope if they show him its for like 2 seconds before he's crushed by falling wreckage or some shit. You're old EU can burn.

And the writers proceed to deconstruct Kylo Ren and constantly remind the audience how un-scary he is.

To you.

All you say is he's not scary, no reason why, just keep saying it. Good for you. In your opinion he's not scary. Who gives a fuck.

Considering Han didn't even want to kill him, that's hardly threatening.

So an unstable child willing to kill his unarmed father who had no intention of hurting his son, IS NOT SCARY? Fuck your reaching.

Fuck off. Since when did I say I need a villain to blow up a planet to be threatening? Thrawn never blew up a planet and I still find him a good villian.

Fuck off tool. You are entitled to your opinion, but if all you got is 'he is not scary' and then show all the scary stuff he's done and keep with the 'he is not scary' he may not be to you, but why the fuck would ANYONE else be drawn into your side of it. And again, FUCK Thrawn and the old EU, it was hack writing.

Yeah, because you kept strawmanning me.

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Good luck with that. They've already said they are making EP 8 take place right after the last scene in TFA.

Unplug and relax man. You're taking for gospel shit you're reading on the interweb. When it releases and they do exactly that, then come back and go neener neener.

You really no idea as to what consequences that would bring to the story, don't you? You are constantly switching back and forth between Rey stayinng with Luke and Rey leaving the planet. You aren't addressing the main problem, which is how do you write a story which Luke plays an important role in the story while not overshadowing Rey.

Option 1: Have Luke leave the planet and journey with Rey. The consequences of this would be Luke overshadowing Rey because he is not an active character going though his own story-arc.

Option 2: Have Luke stay on the planet while training Rey. You will end up with a story with no villain is around to threaten them, reducing the overall tension of the movie.

[/quote]

Irony thy name is Ray.

[Galvatron]

When he comes around to liking to sequel trilogy, I think a name change from ray245 to rey789 is in order.