Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I don't really see it.

Lex is... goofy. Hammy. And obviously lacking self-control at times, perhaps most notably in his mini-breakdown while giving a speech at his own event.

Ledger's Joker is actually a lot colder, as I recall. I get the sense that while he has a deeply warped and cynical view of the world and enjoys playing sadistic games with people in order to make his point, he's got a good deal more self-control and/restraint than this Lex does. Even his "jokes" tend to be a more wry, subdued humour. Except for that one scene in the hospital where he dresses in drag.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:I just saw the film earlier today and a couple of things bothered me:

First, the film was called Batman vs Superman, yet they spent all of five minutes fighting each other, with Superman largely holding back his full strength until Batman whips out the green spear of doom...
Here's an interesting interview with the Editor of BvS (some of you can get your pitchforks and burning torches ready if you need :wink: ), provides some insight on what was cut and why. Good read for all in this thread, here are the highlights from memory (and some of the list I'm filling in from other news sources as well I'm sure);
  1. Rough cut of this movie was 4 hours preserving all of Terrio's script
  2. Got whittled down to 3hrs while moving some parts around
    1. Namely moving Lex into Act 1 when Terrio had him only from Act 2 onwards
  3. This is the 'cut' that everyone saw (which tested well) but when they went to the classification board it came back as R
  4. Studio wanted 2.5hrs non-R movie so they had to make a decision on what to keep, and what to cut
  5. Ultimately it boiled down to what part of the four characters of Clark Kent/Superman and Bruce Wayne/Batman they could keep and what they could dispense with
  6. What was sacrificed was nearly all of Clark Kent being Clark Kent
  7. They kept a lot of Bruce Wayne but cut some of Batman
  8. Lois' story suffered by the sounds of it as well
Good news is that the extended Blu-Ray will have this back in for my fanboy self to be happy! :mrgreen:

You can understand why they did 6 (which pains me) simply because if you have to choose between Clark and Bruce (who is new in this universe) you have to put Bruce in there or he just falls absolutely flat. This movie should have been 2 different movies, at minimum. I appreciate what they did (I'm unapologetically in love with this film) but it suffered so much for what it was trying to accomplish.
EnterpriseSovereign wrote:Second, we know that comic book Batman doesn't like guns, yet during his rescue of Martha he turns plenty of the mook's guns against them. It's one thing to have the batmobile pack cannons etc (Impressive that it was still driveable even after its altercation with Superman), but Batman himself picking up firearms? :?:
Every single live action Batman (except Clooney) kills people, and yes sometimes with explosives and guns.



For some reason, people's head-canon blocks all these out, unless it's in a Snyder movie.

Anyway, the point (which has been already pointed out) is that this is a broken Batman. This is post Death in the Family, he has essentially given up hope. At the end of the movie, this is a redeemed Batman who begins to return to the 'no kill' ideal (well at least no brand people with a hot iron ideal).

And a small, intsy tiny spoiler for Suicide Squad; it takes place after BvS. Here's a pic of the BvS Batmobile. Here's a screen grab of the Batmobile in the latest Suicide Squad trailer. Notice a difference? I'll concede that we don't yet know if this is a flashback or present day but ... They're trying to build this universe, give it some time.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

GHETTO EDIT :: SHIT SORRY MAN, I DIDN'T PROPERLY ANSWER YOUR POINT
Crown wrote:
EnterpriseSovereign wrote:Second, we know that comic book Batman doesn't like guns, yet during his rescue of Martha he turns plenty of the mook's guns against them. It's one thing to have the batmobile pack cannons etc (Impressive that it was still driveable even after its altercation with Superman), but Batman himself picking up firearms? :?:
<snip>
Since you're making a distinction between Batman using a hand held gun and having guns on the Batmobile/Batwing I'll point out one thing; during the warehouse scene he doesn't shoot anyone with a hand gun. He uses his grappling hook, he also uses a Batarang to disarm, he (as you pointed out) turns their own weapons against them by forcing them to start firing and he shoots the fuel tank of the flame thrower (but not KGBeast himself) with a gun, but this isn't beyond the comic norm.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Annatar Giftbringer »

Crown,
Great find - thanks for sharing!
Looks like I've gotta buy a blu-Ray player now, I wanna see that extended version...

Regarding the batmobile, I assume you're referring to the lack of gun-turret? I don't remember where, but I'm pretty sure I've read something somewhere about the turret being retractable, so it could simply not be deployed in the suicide squad photo.

I can't remember if the turret was visible during the entire car-scene in dawn of justice, or if it just unfolded when he needed it...
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Annatar Giftbringer wrote:Crown,
Great find - thanks for sharing!
Looks like I've gotta buy a blu-Ray player now, I wanna see that extended version...
Trust me, as a huge Superman fan (and Clois shipper) the stuff that's been cut irks me to no end. Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster that Amy Adams and Henry Cavill can act to sell their characters with the little time they have to do so, or I would have been bummed out during this movie.
Annatar Giftbringer wrote:Regarding the batmobile, I assume you're referring to the lack of gun-turret? I don't remember where, but I'm pretty sure I've read something somewhere about the turret being retractable, so it could simply not be deployed in the suicide squad photo.

I can't remember if the turret was visible during the entire car-scene in dawn of justice, or if it just unfolded when he needed it...
The Batwing's cannons are retractable (well not retractable, they rotate horizontal into the forward wing and then a cover slides across them for Batman to jump off from), these aren't shown to do that in the movie at all. From the moment Batfleck turns on the Batmobile to the point he drives into the Batcave all busted up to shit, those cannons are always there. :wink:
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Annatar Giftbringer »

You're right, the batwing cannons did fold away. I'd forgotten about that, thanks for the reminder :)

Useful feature, being able to retract the guns. Should reduce drag as well as increase stealth, right? The plane from Arkham origins had a similar setup where the nose opened up to reveal weaponry.

I wonder if the cannons can swivel to fire at off-center targets, could be useful when hovering.

I'm also curious to know if the batwing's shape would work IRL, if the cent edge of the wings and nose would 'cut through' the air allowing the plane to fly, or if the hollow shape between the nose and cockpit would play hell with aerodynamics and tear the plane apart...

Speaking of shape, and batwing in general, doesn't it look like the cockpit module could detach and turn into a boat?



Anyways, regarding the batmobile turret, I found a few references to it online, and on http://collider.com/batman-vs-superman- ... -pictures/there's an image of a fact-sheet labeled 'the legendary batmobile' where twin .50 caliber retractable machine gun turret is listed amongst its features.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Elheru Aran »

The Batplane is basically a modification of a tandem wing design, where 'canards' are blended with the main wings.

The design itself doesn't look *that* practical. Most of these designs have one solid body with wings on either side, not a small body with big-ass wings that meet in front of its nose.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by biostem »

Looking at the closeups of the BvS Batmobile, I wonder how the ammo is fed to that turret. I also wonder just how much performance has to be sacrificed in the name of making the vehicles fit the bat aesthetic.

The 1989 batmobile had 2 .30 or .50 cal machine guns in retractable bays as well...
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Galvatron »

I paid to see this movie three times. I liked it better with each viewing. Flaws and all, it was magnificent. I can't wait for the R-rated extended edition.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I was rather unhappy about the R rated extended edition, because I kind of figured it was just a ploy to pander to people who equate darker and more gratuitous violence with quality.

But looking at Crown's post a ways back about all the cuts that were imposed by the studio, it might actually be a good thing, if it restores the film to a less poorly edited and more coherent earlier version.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Elheru Aran »

The Romulan Republic wrote:I was rather unhappy about the R rated extended edition, because I kind of figured it was just a ploy to pander to people who equate darker and more gratuitous violence with quality.

But looking at Crown's post a ways back about all the cuts that were imposed by the studio, it might actually be a good thing, if it restores the film to a less poorly edited and more coherent earlier version.
On the other hand, it could make it even more obvious how they basically cobbled a bunch of separate films together into one movie, because it'll be the length of all those movies combined. Let's review-- you have a Clark/Lois movie where Lois is investigating weapons shenanigans in Africa. You have a Batman movie, or the potential for one anyway (why is Wayne Manor abandoned? Bats has been on the scene for 20 years, what has he been doing? Etc), the actual versus...

Frankly, while I appreciate the movie for existing-- a decent comic-book movie is a good thing to have in and of itself-- I truly feel that they should've taken the time to develop the various characters a little longer. Marvel didn't throw Avengers at us a few years after Iron Man, after all. They brought out another Iron Man movie, Captain America, Hulk and Thor. DC is trying to jump the line and go right to the box office, and that's not how it works.

The way I see it, if your post-theater release is the 'actual' movie, if it's a *better* movie than what millions of people already saw in the theater... you kind of failed. If you can't write a decent, coherent movie that takes place within two and a half hours, but you have to trim so much material to make it fit that space that you have a couple hours' more material, you either suck at movie-making or your corporate pimps have no idea how it works and demanded that you make a movie about X vs Y without really considering what kind of build-up you need to make it happen (both are equally likely, IMO).
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I don't mind if the extended version is really long. Even the four hour version would still put it short of the Return of the King special edition, as I recall.

If its smoother and more coherent as a result, I'll watch a four hour film. I've seen lots of films that could have benefitted from a longer run time.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crazedwraith »

To me, films that long are a failure of writing, especially if it's not an adaption. The Extended LotR films are okay if they're solely an adaption of the books.

But BvS? You know going in you're aiming for approximately 2 hrs of film. Write that. don't write something twice as long you have to cut down.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Galvatron »

Don't get me wrong, I like BvS just fine as it is. However, if the longer version smooths out some of its flaws, all the better. Ridley Scott's Kingdom of Heaven is the only movie that I can recall needing a director's cut in order to become a good film.

But hey, maybe the R-rated extended edition will satisfy or even please some of the people who didn't like the theatrical release at all.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Elheru Aran »

Galvatron wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like BvS just fine as it is. However, if the longer version smooths out some of its flaws, all the better. Ridley Scott's Kingdom of Heaven is the only movie that I can recall needing a director's cut in order to become a good film.

But hey, maybe the R-rated extended edition will satisfy or even please some of the people who didn't like the theatrical release at all.
The thing is... there is a glaringly obvious flaw:

If the extended edition is redonkulously longer than the theatrical edition, that means they had to trim a LOT of plot. Which means, more often than not (Kingdom of Heaven, as you noted, is one of those exceptions) the rest of the movie was either a bloated mess (see the Hobbit films) or elements of the film should really have been made into their own movie by rights, separate from this production.

The basic fact of the matter is that unless you have an intricately planned, *coherent* and well put together plot that *cannot* take place over any less time, there is no excuse for making a movie that, in its *complete* form, plays over a couple of hours long. The Hobbit movies got a lot of very justifiable criticism for the sheer quantity of bloat that Peter Jackson shoveled into the rather basic plot.

IMO, if you have so much material that it makes four hours of film, just give it the chop and make two or even three movies with their own separate plotlines that finally culminate in the big tent-pole movie that you're trying to make. You'll avoid making a confused mess of one movie and be able to explore the individual characters in more depth and bring in more supporting characters. A Batfleck movie *before* Batman vs Superman could've made a decent foundation for Suicide Squad, rather than SS feeling shoehorned in. A Superman movie before Batman vs Superman could've been a decent sequel to MoS, helped build up Lex Luthor, and so forth. Yes, it means that BvS might have had to wait a few years. So what? There was no real reason for it to exist other than WB trying to print money by riding on the wave that the MCU is generating.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Galvatron »

I'm not arguing that it's flawless. I loved it despite its flaws. I tend to be very forgiving of a movie's problems if the overall product satisfies me, which BvS did.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Elheru Aran »

Galvatron wrote:I'm not arguing that it's flawless. I loved it despite its flaws. I tend to be very forgiving of a movie's problems if the overall product satisfies me, which BvS did.
Yeah, that's fair enough. Like I said, I'm happy to have it, I just feel that it could definitely have been done better. But it's just good to have a decent comic book movie...
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Annatar Giftbringer wrote:You're right, the batwing cannons did fold away. I'd forgotten about that, thanks for the reminder :)

Useful feature, being able to retract the guns. Should reduce drag as well as increase stealth, right? The plane from Arkham origins had a similar setup where the nose opened up to reveal weaponry.

I wonder if the cannons can swivel to fire at off-center targets, could be useful when hovering.

I'm also curious to know if the batwing's shape would work IRL, if the cent edge of the wings and nose would 'cut through' the air allowing the plane to fly, or if the hollow shape between the nose and cockpit would play hell with aerodynamics and tear the plane apart...

Speaking of shape, and batwing in general, doesn't it look like the cockpit module could detach and turn into a boat?
I wouldn't mind running it on some of our modelling/analysis software at work if I can get away with it of course! lol
Annatar Giftbringer wrote:Anyways, regarding the batmobile turret, I found a few references to it online, and on http://collider.com/batman-vs-superman- ... -pictures/there's an image of a fact-sheet labeled 'the legendary batmobile' where twin .50 caliber retractable machine gun turret is listed amongst its features.
I'll concede to canon (pun intended) but to my engineer eyeball I do not see where that thing will recede into.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crazedwraith »

Elheru Aran wrote:
Galvatron wrote:I'm not arguing that it's flawless. I loved it despite its flaws. I tend to be very forgiving of a movie's problems if the overall product satisfies me, which BvS did.
Yeah, that's fair enough. Like I said, I'm happy to have it, I just feel that it could definitely have been done better. But it's just good to have a decent comic book movie...

It is. Know where I can get one? :P
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Crazedwraith wrote:
Elheru Aran wrote:
Galvatron wrote:I'm not arguing that it's flawless. I loved it despite its flaws. I tend to be very forgiving of a movie's problems if the overall product satisfies me, which BvS did.
Yeah, that's fair enough. Like I said, I'm happy to have it, I just feel that it could definitely have been done better. But it's just good to have a decent comic book movie...

It is. Know where I can get one? :P
Days of Future Past.

I like pointing this out; I love, LOVE BvS like balls deep love it. But Days of Future Past is pretty much the perfect comic book movie. And I like it, but I don't love it like BvS. Because I'm weird that way.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crazedwraith »

Crown wrote: Days of Future Past.

I like pointing this out; I love, LOVE BvS like balls deep love it. But Days of Future Past is pretty much the perfect comic book movie. And I like it, but I don't love it like BvS. Because I'm weird that way.
DoFP is darned good. Though it did drop the hammer on several characters unceremoniously and the continuity merge between the original cast and First Class is a bit dodgy.

So yes! Perfectly comic book.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Galvatron »

I neglected to mention this before, but I'm tired of seeing people criticize this movie because Batman kills people. They're acting as if he's gone full-Punisher, when he actually isn't much more violent than he was in earlier iterations that fans adored.

Quite frankly, it always struck me as profoundly unrealistic that Batman could avoid killing at least some of the thugs that he's injured after so many of years of vigilante crime-fighting. I think the important distinction that separates Batman from the Punisher is that the latter intentionally commits first degree mass murder on a regular basis.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Crazedwraith wrote:To me, films that long are a failure of writing, especially if it's not an adaption. The Extended LotR films are okay if they're solely an adaption of the books.

But BvS? You know going in you're aiming for approximately 2 hrs of film. Write that. don't write something twice as long you have to cut down.
I do not agree that their is an arbitrary maximum length that all films are supposed to be to be good.

You could argue that it is a mistake for a writer to write a script that will take four hours to film if they know that the studio wants a two hour film, yes. But if it would make for a better film, then at worst they're guilty of aiming their sights unrealistically high, and in this case it looks like they'll actually get something approaching the original version released, so good for them.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

I just want to clarify something for everyone, when I say the rough cut was 4 hours long I do mean a rough cut of the movie. This will included oodles and oodles of establishing shots and panning shots etc. For example the scene where Clark receives the polaroids in the Daily Planet you can picture like a long tracking shot of the mail boy going up the elevator, it opening and then the cart navigating its way down the open plan office towards Clark before reaching him and delivering the mail. Now imagine these type of establishing shots for every scene in this movie.

This is a typical "rough cut"; a lot of fat to be trimmed.

The three hour movie was the one where this was trimmed but keeping the script intact (with some editorial/directorial changes as mentioned about Lex being moved into Act 1 rather than Act 2 onwards).
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, three hours isn't even that long. Hell, if anything, in my opinion most epic blockbusters should probably be in the three hour range.
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