Force Allocation

[Rhadamantus]

You are the head of a small independent state. You have the ability to operate 40 star destroyer masses worth of ships. You share the system with another state of equal size. Both states have 40ish million people. The system is as follows.


Star .7 solar mass, .22 solar luminosities star

Rock (.37 AU, .18 earth masses) (All Enemy, 100,000 people)
Martian (.49 AU, .1 earth masses) (All Yours, 6 million people) (18% as much water as Earth, 35 F average temperature)
Martian (.68 AU, .23 earth masses) (Even split, 200,000 people) (5% as much water as earth)
Jovian (1.25 AU, 104 earth masses) (Even split, 4 million people in system, 20 million in trojans)
Ice (1.39 AU, .008 earth masses) (All Enemy, 100,000 people)
Asteroid Belt (1.4-2.5 AU, .01 earth masses) (Even split, 40 million people)
Ice (2.85 AU, .06 earth masses) (All Yours, 10,000 people)
Titanian (3.59 AU, .74 earth masses) (All Yours, 500,000 people)
Titanian (4.73 AU, 1.75 earth masses) (All Yours, 600,000 people)
Titanian (10.7 AU, .9 earth masses) (Mostly Yours, 400,000 people)
Jovian (14.1 AU, 154 earth masses) (3/4 Enemy, 1 million in system, 5 million in trojans)
Sub-Jovian (26.1 AU, 1.46 earth masses) (All Yours, 100,000 people)
Ice (34.9 AU, .02 earth masses) (All Enemy, 10,000 people)
Gas Dwarf (43.7 AU, 2.25 earth masses) (3/4 Yours, 150,000 people)
Kuiper Belt (45+ AU, even split, 5 million people)

How do you allocate your forces?

[Elheru Aran]

...I'm sorry, what?

[Rhadamantus]

Given the system, what ships would you buy and where would you place them?

[Simon_Jester]

I would buy a mix of ships calculated to provide mutual support. My forces would be a combination of broadly effective multirole vessels, and specialist craft intended to excel at particular missions necessitated by the technology, logistics, economic structure, and astropolitics of my era.

I would scale the mass of my ships such that I have sufficient numbers to defend my own key assets, credibly threaten those of my prospective enemy (enemies?), and retain a respectable reserve force.

The bulk of my forces would be positioned either in places chosen to protect my own most valuable assets, to threaten assets of my enemies and force him to concentrate on defense. Ideally, in line with Liddell-Hart's theory of the indirect approach, along with my wife's knack for kicking my ass at chess, both.

And if you think my response is trite and generic, well... so was your original post.

[Elheru Aran]

No, you're not really giving enough data at all. And what you do give is not particularly helpful. I mean, hell, apart from it being in this forum there's no indication of what type of ships we are supposed to use. There's no visual to assist speculation, no system map, no finances, just a vague mishmash of numbers. What is the technology level? What ships are we dealing with? 40 Star Destroyer masses worth of ships could be a few Executors, it could be a baby Death Star, it could be a few million TIE fighters. What does the opposition have?

Basically, your OP is absurdly vague. You need to expand further.

[Rhadamantus]

More detailed prompt.

http://postimg.org/image/iu19j44m9/10ab3daf/

I'd say GDP is 4 trillion credits per year, 5% of which goes to the military (1/2 to the navy). Total navy procurement budget is a trillion credits.
Tech level is ESB time.

Available ships and prices are

Battlecruisers;, Procurator (88 billion credits) Praetor (300 billion credits)

Heavy Destroyers; Allegiance (65 billion credits)
Line Destroyers; Tector (25 billion credits) Imperator-I (22 billion credits) Imperator-II (25 billion credits) Dominator (30 billion credits)

Light Destroyers; Venator (8 billion credits) Victory-I (9 billion credits) Victory-II (9 billion credits)

Heavy Frigates; Acclamator (3 billion credits) Vindicator (1.3 billion credits), Interdictor (1.5 billion credits, Carrier on Vindicator Hull (1.2 billion credits)

Medium Frigates: Dreadnaught (1 billion credits)

Light Frigates; Fulgor (500 million credits)

Heavy Corvettes: Carrack (100 million credits)

Medium Corvettes: Nebulon B (50 million credits)

The enemy has about 30 Victories, 20 Venators, a few Imperators, 1 Allegiance, and an equal mass of ships as customs, anti-piracy, and escorts.

[NecronLord]

How can a state smaller than England - not Britain, England - in terms of population afford forty star destroyers? That's wholly inconsistent with even the most optimistic examples of naval size and indicates something very hinkey/weird is going on with my economy.

Is the money to support these coming from a source that might vanish overnight?

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah.

Frankly, a system that size, I wouldn't expect to field anything more than corvettes unless its disproportionately wealthy.

[NecronLord]

I'd say GDP is 4 trillion credits per year, 5% of which goes to the military (1/2 to the navy). Total navy procurement budget is a trillion credits.

That's not how math works.

2.5 % of 4 trillion is 100 billion. Are we supposed to be borrowing ten times our military budget to support this comical procurement?

I miss when there was a math test to register on this forum.

I can only presume our system is heavily in debt to the InterGalactic Banking Clan. I start looking at ways to reduce the military spending without too many problems, ensure I have peaceful relations with our neighbour, and invite the Jedi Order to help ensure peaceful disarmament. I then look at using the money saved to give our people some much needed tax breaks, and pay down our debt to the IGBC or whoever funded this outrageous buildup by my predecessor.

[Batman]

I can't remember there being a math test?

[bilateralrope]

I can only presume our system is heavily in debt to the InterGalactic Banking Clan. I start looking at ways to reduce the military spending without too many problems, ensure I have peaceful relations with our neighbour, and invite the Jedi Order to help ensure peaceful disarmament. I then look at using the money saved to give our people some much needed tax breaks, and pay down our debt to the IGBC or whoever funded this outrageous buildup by my predecessor.

I do the same. If war looks likely, I call up the Banking clan to ask for help, under the logic that if my nation falls we won't be able to pay off our debt. Thus we would like help protecting our ability to pay.

[NecronLord]

I can't remember there being a math test?

You registered before that came in; it was when we didn't use capcha, there was a set of math questions that were chosen randomly broadly similar to the key stage 3 math questions on UK tests (11-14 y. old); something to the effect of:

The price of a coat is £35. In a sale the price is reduced by 15%. What is the sale price of the coat in pounds?

And the sign-up required the correct answer. We use capcha now.

[The Romulan Republic]

I can only presume our system is heavily in debt to the InterGalactic Banking Clan. I start looking at ways to reduce the military spending without too many problems, ensure I have peaceful relations with our neighbour, and invite the Jedi Order to help ensure peaceful disarmament. I then look at using the money saved to give our people some much needed tax breaks, and pay down our debt to the IGBC or whoever funded this outrageous buildup by my predecessor.

I do the same. If war looks likely, I call up the Banking clan to ask for help, under the logic that if my nation falls we won't be able to pay off our debt. Thus we would like help protecting our ability to pay.

The poster in question set this at ESB tech. level, which I presume means during Empire Strikes Back. So the Banking Clan and Jedi Order aren't terribly applicable, are they?

[NecronLord]

If it's actually in the ESB setting, we have no choice. The Empire tolerates no rivals of that magnitude. Forty star destroyers is bigger than the entire rebellion.

If we want to invoke Legends, there's the Hapans, but they've been established for centuries, and the apposite comparison is the Sepan Civil War, where the Empire actually intervenes (right after ESB no less) because the Sepan system combatants have been gaining too much firepower in the war between the two system states - the Empire and Secret Order of the Emperor don't even like them having fucking Y wings in numbers and they've nothing above Corvettes, and go so far as to say there's no legitimate means for them to get such things.

And the Sepan Civil War clearly illustrates that the Empire is prepared, at least in Legends, to send peacekeepers to such petty civil wars, and force both sides to the table.

Oh, and the IGBC exists into the Imperial era in the legends continuity, and even Clone Wars implies it's a going concern after the IGBC proper is nationalized by the Chancellor's office.

[Purple]

Still given the economic situation the only really viable option is to see if we can get a strike force of fighters with hyperdrives that can act as a fast reaction force. Alternatively just one really, really god dam fast smuggling freighter with enough space in the back for me, a few close ones and all the credits I can stuff in it.

[bilateralrope]

Why does our enemy want to attack us ?

I can only presume our system is heavily in debt to the InterGalactic Banking Clan. I start looking at ways to reduce the military spending without too many problems, ensure I have peaceful relations with our neighbour, and invite the Jedi Order to help ensure peaceful disarmament. I then look at using the money saved to give our people some much needed tax breaks, and pay down our debt to the IGBC or whoever funded this outrageous buildup by my predecessor.

I do the same. If war looks likely, I call up the Banking clan to ask for help, under the logic that if my nation falls we won't be able to pay off our debt. Thus we would like help protecting our ability to pay.

The poster in question set this at ESB tech. level, which I presume means during Empire Strikes Back. So the Banking Clan and Jedi Order aren't terribly applicable, are they?

Then I say it to whoever we are in debt to. Because we clearly must be in debt to someone.

As for our fleet, I keep it with whatever we currently have because that seems to be working.

[NecronLord]

Oh, and just in case people think I'm making the Sepan Civil War example up. Click on the image for the video. That one was imposed at gunpoint however; I would try and work out a way to de-escalate the conflict without the Empire getting directly involved, because I want to keep Imperial troops out if I can.

The Jedi if they exist, are fair dealers, the Empire isn't, but can be relied upon to knock this nonsense on the head more aggressively (and probably with a worse outcome for everyone). The situation is unsustainable under the Empire and an arms buildup will not benefit us.

[The Romulan Republic]

If it's actually in the ESB setting, we have no choice. The Empire tolerates no rivals of that magnitude. Forty star destroyers is bigger than the entire rebellion.

If we want to invoke Legends, there's the Hapans, but they've been established for centuries, and the apposite comparison is the Sepan Civil War, where the Empire actually intervenes (right after ESB no less) because the Sepan system combatants have been gaining too much firepower in the war between the two system states - the Empire and Secret Order of the Emperor don't even like them having fucking Y wings in numbers and they've nothing above Corvettes, and go so far as to say there's no legitimate means for them to get such things.

And the Sepan Civil War clearly illustrates that the Empire is prepared, at least in Legends, to send peacekeepers to such petty civil wars, and force both sides to the table.

Oh, and the IGBC exists into the Imperial era in the legends continuity, and even Clone Wars implies it's a going concern after the IGBC proper is nationalized by the Chancellor's office.

Pretty much right as far as I know, though I think that you're underestimating the size of the Rebellion somewhat.

If during the Imperial era, we either suck Palpatine's cock (in which case we can likely count on the Imperial fleet to do our fighting for us) or take our fleet, flee the system, and defect to the Rebels/fight a guerrilla war.

Still given the economic situation the only really viable option is to see if we can get a strike force of fighters with hyperdrives that can act as a fast reaction force. Alternatively just one really, really god dam fast smuggling freighter with enough space in the back for me, a few close ones and all the credits I can stuff in it.

This actually makes sense.

Regarding the OP:

Considering we have half a dozen worlds split between me and my enemy, ground troops are going to be just as important as space forces. If I have the money/manufacturing capability (and if I have the capability to field a large SD fleet, I presumably do), I will likely invest in hordes of droids troops with organic officers unless Clone Wars/separatist associations make that politically infeasible (in that case, I'll go for a recruitment drive for a volunteer army). Something similar to a super battle droid might be good as standard infantry if affordable in sufficient numbers. Armoured vehicle transport is necessary as well- probably wheeled or tracked rather than walkers or repulsors. Maybe put a bit more focus on artillery than the typical Star Wars military seems to.

I don't know if I can afford full planetary shield grids, even on the worlds I fully control, but theatre shielding is a must.

I'm not sure how much this all will cost, but let's say it reduces my fleet capacity to only thirty SDs.

This means the enemy out masses my fleet in capital ship hulls by almost two to one, even if I build nothing but capital ships. Though if I have the capacity for thirty Imperators, that'll outmatch their Victories and Venators.

I think I'll go for quality over quantity. A smaller number of SDs specifically designed to engage enemy capital ships (isn't that supposed to be the Tector's role?). As many of them as I can build. Launch a preemptive strike on the enemy's fleet and try to take out part of it quickly in a surprise attack to shift the balance in my favour. Once space superiority is achieved, victory is only a matter of time.

[NecronLord]

Pretty much right as far as I know, though I think that you're underestimating the size of the Rebellion somewhat.

Perhaps in some sources; the source I had in mind when saying that was:

In a remote and midnight vacuum beyond the edge of the galaxy, the vast Rebel fleet stretched, from its vanguard to its rear echelon, past the range of human vision. Corellian battle ships, cruisers, destroyers, carriers, bombers, Sullustian cargo freighters,' Calamarian tankers, Alderaanian gunships, Kesselian blockade runners, Bestinian sky-hoppers, X-wing, Y-wing, and A-wing fighters, shuttles, transport vehicles, manowars. Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions. They were led by the largest of the Rebel Star Cruisers, the Headquarters Frigate.

Hundreds of Rebel commanders, of all species and lifeforms, assembled in the war room of the giant Star Cruiser, awaiting orders from the High Command. Rumors were everywhere, and an air of excitement spread from squadron to squadron.

At the center of the briefing room was a large, circular light-table, projected above which a holographic image of the unfinished Imperial Death Star hovered beside the Moon of Endor, whose scintillating protective deflector shield encompassed them both.

Mon Mothma entered the room. A stately, beautiful woman of middle age, she seemed to walk above the murmurs of the crowd. She wore white robes with gold braiding, and her severity was not without cause - for she was the elected leader of the Rebel Alliance.

I don't think there were forty star destroyers worth, in tonnage, of rebel ships at Endor, long shots of the Imperial fleet show there to be something on the order of thirty star destroyers excluding the Executor there. Source estimating number of Imperial ships.

There may well be sources implying far higher numbers of rebel ships, but I'm not aware of them. Certainly Vader describes that rebel fleet as 'The Rebel fleet massing near Sullust' - which implies it's far from small, as non-Imperial forces go.

[Rhadamantus]

I'd say GDP is 4 trillion credits per year, 5% of which goes to the military (1/2 to the navy). Total navy procurement budget is a trillion credits.

That's not how math works.

2.5 % of 4 trillion is 100 billion. Are we supposed to be borrowing ten times our military budget to support this comical procurement?

I miss when there was a math test to register on this forum.

Yes, but they build ships for more than one year. If ships have a service lifetime of 30 years, then 1/3 of the naval budget would be shipbuilding. See how that works?

[Rhadamantus]

Just to clarify, this is set in a maximalist setting. I took the size of Starkiller Base, divided by population, and took this as an average militarization level. You get about one star destroyer per million people (less actually). This is then small enough that the Empire doesn't care, and selling old stuff to both sides. They are currently in a cold war, and are therefore spending far too much on their militaries.

[The Romulan Republic]

Pretty much right as far as I know, though I think that you're underestimating the size of the Rebellion somewhat.

Perhaps in some sources; the source I had in mind when saying that was:

In a remote and midnight vacuum beyond the edge of the galaxy, the vast Rebel fleet stretched, from its vanguard to its rear echelon, past the range of human vision. Corellian battle ships, cruisers, destroyers, carriers, bombers, Sullustian cargo freighters,' Calamarian tankers, Alderaanian gunships, Kesselian blockade runners, Bestinian sky-hoppers, X-wing, Y-wing, and A-wing fighters, shuttles, transport vehicles, manowars. Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions. They were led by the largest of the Rebel Star Cruisers, the Headquarters Frigate.

Hundreds of Rebel commanders, of all species and lifeforms, assembled in the war room of the giant Star Cruiser, awaiting orders from the High Command. Rumors were everywhere, and an air of excitement spread from squadron to squadron.

At the center of the briefing room was a large, circular light-table, projected above which a holographic image of the unfinished Imperial Death Star hovered beside the Moon of Endor, whose scintillating protective deflector shield encompassed them both.

Mon Mothma entered the room. A stately, beautiful woman of middle age, she seemed to walk above the murmurs of the crowd. She wore white robes with gold braiding, and her severity was not without cause - for she was the elected leader of the Rebel Alliance.

I don't think there were forty star destroyers worth, in tonnage, of rebel ships at Endor, long shots of the Imperial fleet show there to be something on the order of thirty star destroyers excluding the Executor there. Source estimating number of Imperial ships.

There may well be sources implying far higher numbers of rebel ships, but I'm not aware of them. Certainly Vader describes that rebel fleet as 'The Rebel fleet massing near Sullust' - which implies it's far from small, as non-Imperial forces go.

A few points:

1. Are the novelizations still canon?

2. The number of ships is not stated in that quote.

3. We cannot assume the fleet composition at Endor was the same as the fleet composition at the meeting (it doesn't really match up with what's shown on screen at Endor). I actually did a thread on this very early in my days on this board:

https://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic ... 3&t=130141

4. There is a possible contradiction between a fleet massing outside the galaxy and one massing near Sullust.

[The Romulan Republic]

Just to clarify, this is set in a maximalist setting. I took the size of Starkiller Base, divided by population, and took this as an average militarization level. You get about one star destroyer per million people (less actually). This is then small enough that the Empire doesn't care, and selling old stuff to both sides. They are currently in a cold war, and are therefore spending far too much on their militaries.

Starkiller Base is an entire world that has been turned into a giant military facility. To treat that as in any way representative of a typical level of militarization is ridiculous, because Starkiller Base is all militarized.

[NecronLord]

A few points:

1. Are the novelizations still canon?

2. The number of ships is not stated in that quote.

3. We cannot assume the fleet composition at Endor was the same as the fleet composition at the meeting (it doesn't really match up with what's shown on screen at Endor). I actually did a thread on this very early in my days on this board:

https://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic ... 3&t=130141

4. There is a possible contradiction between a fleet massing outside the galaxy and one massing near Sullust.

Granted without contest; the point is that forty star destroyers is a whopping massive super-duper force, hyper-militarised and even Rhad's own numbers suggest that buying them is a quarter of the planetary GDP.

[NecronLord]

Just to clarify, this is set in a maximalist setting. I took the size of Starkiller Base, divided by population, and took this as an average militarization level. You get about one star destroyer per million people (less actually). This is then small enough that the Empire doesn't care, and selling old stuff to both sides. They are currently in a cold war, and are therefore spending far too much on their militaries.

That's prima-facie absurd. That's like estimating the militarization level of the United States based on a nuclear launch site.