Monochromaticism.

[weemadando]

Ladies and gentlemen, I have an announcement.

I oppose the war.

While that mightn't be news to some of you, it will no doubt drive several of you to call me an anti-American, al'Qaeda sympathising, Taliban lover, who would like to see all Americans burn, Bush being violated by several redneck treemen, and dancing about praising Chirac and saying that Saddam is really just misunderstood, of course, while doing all this I'm no doubt sacrificing several babies to the dark gods of democracy, socialism and free speech.

Now. Onto the rest of this rant. I'm sick of seeing the "images from the frontline" of a couple of supply trucks driving past the site of a battle from yesterday. I am sick of the predominantly American media reporting that all is going well and Iraqis are greeting American soldiers with open arms. Why then is the HMAS ANZAC still shelling positions in Umm Qasar? Why do we have daily news of attacks on American rear areas?

I don't wish death upon anybody, not even Saddam, who I personally believe should be going to the Hague, not an American show trial and firing squad. I think this war is one of the most pathetic attempts at garnering re-election support that I've ever seen. And that doesn't just go for Shrub, that goes for Blair, Aznar and double for Howard.

Can some people just wake up and smell the middle ground? The war has already begun, the online rantings of one man isn't going to stop it. But for fucks sake, some of you seem to think that an opposing opinion is worthy of a trip to Monsier Guillotine. You know who you are.

Michael Moore soapboxed at the Oscars. Big deal, it was more amusing than political. Every day I see Tommy Franks soap boxing about how dominant the might of the grand army of the republic is and how the Iraqi army is deserting faster than rats from a sinking ship. All sides soap box.

Now I see people criticising the democrats moving to halve tax cuts. Tax cuts, in the middle of a military campaign. Thats fucking unheard of, and why is it such a bad idea to try and keep an economy afloat, or did Bush learn everything he knows about accounting from Enron?

It may seem that I've stepped a little far to the perceived "left" here. But let me tell you, that the left is little better in this campaign. We have protests world wide, I have no problem with this, for it is a wonderful way of displaying a discontent with policy. But the idiots who riot, stage "vomit ins" or the rest of it... What are some of the opinions of the college basketballer who turns her back during the "star spangled banner", how about the Montreal Canadiens fans booing the anthem? Is this a display of rampant leftism and anti-Americanism? Or just a display of opinions which differ from those of the current American government.

Within the US you have Arab communities receiving countless threats, by phone, letter and e-mail everyday. This is without taking into account the actual physical attacks upon them. Is this part of the war on terror? Is this what awaits the population of Iraq? Did you ever stop to ask why the people are so afraid of the government. When men are taken from their homes without charge, interrogated without represented and interred without reason - then surely it is ones DUTY to question your leaders, this was firmly established at Nuremburg, or is the United States conveniently forgetting the judgements of the past when it suits them?

Freedom Fries? I don't really care, if the House wants to be perceived as shallow idiots in world opinion then its their problem. But when a war against a nation, yes a nation, not just their leader, is launched and lead by a single leader - what do we call it? "Operation Iraqi Freedom"? Its a war - not a goddamn Captain America comic. Or is it? What ever happened to the classy names like "Operation Barbarossa"? Oh - so I'm now going to be criticised for comparing the US to Nazi Germany. I don't really care anymore. I'm not going to call Shrub Hitler, but I will call him an idiot. Not because he has somewhat limited mental processes, a vocabulary that would be challenged by the Mr Men books, but because he has such a flagrant disregard for the will of the world, international law and the rights and priviledges of his own citizens.

What about the picking and choosing of when to subscribe to international law? Wow, the Iraqi's filmed P.O.Ws? Care to count the amount of times file footage of detainees at Camp X-Ray have been shown? What about the pictures of American soldiers posing with Taliban KIAs in Afghanistan? How about the amount of times this war we've seen Iraqi soldiers surrendering on CNN? You can't have it both ways, but apparently the American media is willing to ignore that particular bit of hypocrisy.

I despise John Howard, not because he commited troops to this war, but because he did it without consulting the people, or even their elected representatives. That said, I do support our troops, because I don't want to see them come home to be treated like so many Vietnam vets were which utterly disgusts me. So now, likely some on the other side of the spectrum will call me a war monger. I'm not.

And here in lies the problem. This isn't black and white. There are shades of grey. Hell it may even be the whole fucking electromagnetic spectrum. So why do people turn it into a black and white dilemma?

Is it jingoism? Patriotism? Nationalism? Stupidity? Because the media tells them so? Because they heard a catchy slogan? Because the church (whatever church it might be) tells them so? Because their car has that particular bumper sticker? Because they voted for a certain party at the last election? Or is it because they have looked at it carefully, from all angles and decided that they really honestly feel that their position, whatever it is, is correct?

Sadly those in the last ground are in the most tiny of minorities.

My rant is nearly done, and I just wish to make clear to all that I think Saddam is a bad man. But no worse than many world leaders, so you have to question, why is it him that is being singled out? Sure he started several wars of aggression, but so did Israel. Last I checked the US hasn't invaded China for being naughty in Nepal. He used chemical weapons before and allegedly still has them now. Whoopie. Care to list how many chemical weapons I can build from what I have in my kitchen or in the lab at uni. Care to tell me how many nations around the world have a stock of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons? And how many of them have leaders that you'd trust with your kids?

This war isn't about just one issue. Not the WMDs that the "right" talks about. Its not all about the oil like the "left" would like you to believe. This is one where there is a middle ground and I am immensely disappointed that so many of you people who I formerly had a great deal of respect for have failed to see that.

Good luck to everyone fighting, on both sides, may their families not lose loved ones. And my condolensces go out to anyone who has lost a family member or a friend in this conflict.

Lest we forget.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

One very important point was missing.
Who do you want to win?
Once the bullets star flying, ALL become binary.
You can only want ONE side to win, which is it.(Stalemate means US LOSES!)
Saddam, or GWB, only one will win.

Which on do you want to win?

The answer to THIS question, will determine wheather you are anti US, not merely wanting there not to BE a war. It might surprise you to know, that MOST soldiers, and former soldiers, are pro peace. Peace with honor.

So which is it? Who do you want to win?

No copouts, no fantasy land pipe dreams. No ifs, or might have beens.

USA, or Iraq.
Who do you want to win?

[weemadando]

No copouts, no fantasy land pipe dreams. No ifs, or might have beens.

USA, or Iraq.
Who do you want to win?

You want the truth?

Either way, the population of Iraq are in just as much shit as they always have been.

I don't want the US to win because we just end up with a fucking satellite state.

I don't want Iraq to win. Actually no. I do want Iraq to win. I just don't want Saddam to win.

You try and turn this into another black and white dilemma. Which it fucking well isn't.

Long live a free Iraq. Free from tyranny, be it internal or external.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I may not oppose the war...as I feel that Saddam, and eery dictator, need to be removed from power in one way or another...I fee the same way you do

People have the right to differing opinions and methods. And franklyI dont like the way the US is being run rght now.

I also tend to take one of the the many shaes of gray when it comes to this war

[Alyrium Denryle]

By saying you don't want the USA to win, you have stated you want the USA to lose.

What part of tie goes to Saddam don't you get?

If you want a tie, you want Saddam to win you twit!

Some things ARE binary, but not many. THIS is one of them.
Go to Bali and get bombed.
I knew you were against the USA, but I wanted you to make a simple, unambiguos statement of your position. I am sorry if it was painful.
The taking a stand part, not my words.

I believe he is refering to the dea that the US not take over Iraq but instead, liberate the people and leave. The Irqi people win by being free....Correct me if I am wrong Weemadando

[Joe]

By saying you don't want the USA to win, you have stated you want the USA to lose.

What part of tie goes to Saddam don't you get?

If you want a tie, you want Saddam to win you twit!

Some things ARE binary, but not many. THIS is one of them.
Go to Bali and get bombed.
I knew you were against the USA, but I wanted you to make a simple, unambiguos statement of your position. I am sorry if it was painful.
The taking a stand part, not my words.

I believe he is refering to the dea that the US not take over Iraq but instead, liberate the people and leave. The Irqi people win by being free....Correct me if I am wrong Weemadando

True, I don't doubt America's good intentions, and that we will put in place a good government when we're done...however, Iraq is still full of fundies, and they could reestablish a government that is just as bad. Screwing over the Iraqi people again.

[weemadando]

I believe he is refering to the dea that the US not take over Iraq but instead, liberate the people and leave. The Irqi people win by being free....Correct me if I am wrong Weemadando

Thankyou Alyrium for pointing out the blindingly obvious to our vision impaired friend.

[Alyrium Denryle]

By saying you don't want the USA to win, you have stated you want the USA to lose.

What part of tie goes to Saddam don't you get?

If you want a tie, you want Saddam to win you twit!

Some things ARE binary, but not many. THIS is one of them.
Go to Bali and get bombed.
I knew you were against the USA, but I wanted you to make a simple, unambiguos statement of your position. I am sorry if it was painful.
The taking a stand part, not my words.

I believe he is refering to the dea that the US not take over Iraq but instead, liberate the people and leave. The Irqi people win by being free....Correct me if I am wrong Weemadando

True, I don't doubt America's good intentions, and that we will put in place a good government when we're done...however, Iraq is still full of fundies, and they could reestablish a government that is just as bad. Screwing over the Iraqi people again.

I just see us putting in a puppet government...and that just isnt right. If this is truly a war to free ira, then we sure as hell better not take contro over them. Otherwise.....

[Vympel]

Flames HoSed, starting with Chrostas' bullshit.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I believe he is refering to the dea that the US not take over Iraq but instead, liberate the people and leave. The Irqi people win by being free....Correct me if I am wrong Weemadando

Thankyou Alyrium for pointing out the blindingly obvious to our vision impaired friend.

Your welcome

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Bali, boming, Islamofacists, Al Quiada, war on terror. A man as smart as you should know these things. If you see no connection, see the topic, "Comments" by Enforcer Talon.

If YOU are against the USA being victorious, NOW THAT WE ARE IN A WAR, Fuck you too bitch. Some of YOUR fellow soldiers are fighting on MY side. Do you want THEM to lose, too?

Overeducated fools, who feel there is NEVER a black and white issue, should listen to the forces that are against the US led coalition.
THEY see it as a black and white issue, and are willing to kill you to prove it. Listen to them, give them the respect they deserve, and BELIEVE what they SAY! Take them at their word. Not what the eggheads SAY the Islamofacists MEAN.

[Axis Kast]

If the United States fails to win in Iraq, we open a whole new can of worms.

Not only does every nascent dictator worldwide gain something more of a backbone, but people like Saddam - Kim and Khemeni come to mind - are sure to have a field day making new leaps of awful logic about the power and capability of the Western world to effectively respond and/or deter. A victory for Hussein - or a defeat for the Coalition - would turn many more to the ranks of al-Qaeda than a temporary occupation of Iraq ever will.

No. I can understand criticism of the war, criticism of leaders on both sides of the conflict, criticism of the processes that led us to this war, and criticism of the reasons for entry. I cannot however understand why anyone in the free world would ever hope for the United States to lose. Especially if you are of the belief that we already set your agendas for you by virtue of our influence and arrogance, why would you ever wish for a series of events that could only make things worse?

[Vympel]

Bali, boming, Islamofacists, Al Quiada, war on terror. A man as smart as you should know these things. If you see no connection, see the topic, "Comments" by Enforcer Talon.

Nothing to do with Iraq.

[Enforcer Talen]

mm. I conceed all of your points - its a similar bent at the peace protests at my school. damn, but I love an intelligent argument.

my thing with the war is that, first off, I consider war an atrocity. its one of the more horrendous things humanity can do to itself, and I mourn all that die in it. I would have paid money if it could have been avoided.

that said, to quote churchill, there are worse things then war. slavery is worse then war. dishonor is worse then war. and sometimes, there's a maniac that will not let his grip on people go, and only a war can stop it. it's such a brutal planet, to quote cooper.

its my thought, being that usa is sole superpower, it should use some of its power to knock off the tyrants. Ive no doubt this will also be used to improve it's own position, but I welcome a one nation world if it would stop the terrorist states and unrestrained meglomaniacs.

I expect this is not the most coherant post, it's getting late out here, but I think it sheds some light on my views.

[Enforcer Talen]

Bali, boming, Islamofacists, Al Quiada, war on terror. A man as smart as you should know these things. If you see no connection, see the topic, "Comments" by Enforcer Talon.

If YOU are against the USA being victorious, NOW THAT WE ARE IN A WAR, Fuck you too bitch. Some of YOUR fellow soldiers are fighting on MY side. Do you want THEM to lose, too?

Overeducated fools, who feel there is NEVER a black and white issue, should listen to the forces that are against the US led coalition.
THEY see it as a black and white issue, and are willing to kill you to prove it. Listen to them, give them the respect they deserve, and BELIEVE what they SAY! Take them at their word. Not what the eggheads SAY the Islamofacists MEAN.

hey, cool, Ive been quoted.

[Shinova]

Liberating and then just leaving leaves the field open for anyone to take control of Iraq. If we appoint a leader, then fine but we'll still have a war-torn Iraq.

Look what happened in Afghanistan. The US took out the Taliban, appointed the leader, left, and apparently "forgot" to give aid to the Afghan government. Now that country's in a state of chaos and disarray.

We will have to help rebuild Iraq, so we can't just up and leave once Saddam and the likes of him are removed. After all, we started the war, now we help rebuild after things settle down.


Once Iraq's back up to speed, then I'm all for handing complete control of the country back to the Iraqi people.

[Spyder]

USA, or Iraq.
Who do you want to win?

Whichever side wants to ensure that people stop dying for political reasons. Which is probably neither.

[weemadando]

hey, cool, Ive been quoted.

This is one case when I really wouldn't be proud of it.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Liberating and then just leaving leaves the field open for anyone to take control of Iraq. If we appoint a leader, then fine but we'll still have a war-torn Iraq.

Look what happened in Afghanistan. The US took out the Taliban, appointed the leader, left, and apparently "forgot" to give aid to the Afghan government. Now that country's in a state of chaos and disarray.

We will have to help rebuild Iraq, so we can't just up and leave once Saddam and the likes of him are removed. After all, we started the war, now we help rebuild after things settle down.


Once Iraq's back up to speed, then I'm all for handing complete control of the country back to the Iraqi people.

But that will probably not happen They will end uplke Peurto Rico. A US territory. We will probably take oer their oil supplies. Sure they will be abe to pick their government, but we will be calling the shots...fucked up(pure speculation, but it has happened in the past)

[Alyrium Denryle]

USA, or Iraq.
Who do you want to win?

Whichever side wants to ensure that people stop dying for political reasons. Which is probably neither.

essentially

[Enforcer Talen]

hey, it happens rarely enough that I should crow =p

tho, I disagree with some of his ponts.

[Stormbringer]

I have a question for you Ando, what would you like to have been done? Not in the idealized world, but in the real world.

[Joe]

Liberating and then just leaving leaves the field open for anyone to take control of Iraq. If we appoint a leader, then fine but we'll still have a war-torn Iraq.

Look what happened in Afghanistan. The US took out the Taliban, appointed the leader, left, and apparently "forgot" to give aid to the Afghan government. Now that country's in a state of chaos and disarray.

We will have to help rebuild Iraq, so we can't just up and leave once Saddam and the likes of him are removed. After all, we started the war, now we help rebuild after things settle down.


Once Iraq's back up to speed, then I'm all for handing complete control of the country back to the Iraqi people.

But that will probably not happen They will end uplke Peurto Rico. A US territory. We will probably take oer their oil supplies. Sure they will be abe to pick their government, but we will be calling the shots...fucked up(pure speculation, but it has happened in the past)

As the State Department has repeatedly stated, the Iraqi oil reserves will be transferred to the new government and used to finance the reconstruction of Iraq.

[Spyder]

Bali, boming, Islamofacists, Al Quiada, war on terror. A man as smart as you should know these things. If you see no connection, see the topic, "Comments" by Enforcer Talon.

If YOU are against the USA being victorious, NOW THAT WE ARE IN A WAR, Fuck you too bitch. Some of YOUR fellow soldiers are fighting on MY side. Do you want THEM to lose, too?

Overeducated fools, who feel there is NEVER a black and white issue, should listen to the forces that are against the US led coalition.
THEY see it as a black and white issue, and are willing to kill you to prove it. Listen to them, give them the respect they deserve, and BELIEVE what they SAY! Take them at their word. Not what the eggheads SAY the Islamofacists MEAN.

So basically, some people see it as a black and white issue so everyone should, and fuck those that have a different opinion?

[Axis Kast]

Either way, if the United States gets pushed out or is obliged to pack up and go home before completing our stated objective of at least producing a half-working state with some kind of elected leader or figurehead, we open a major can of worms. It's essentially daring others to follow the "Hussein forumla" on the expectation that after the Iraqi debacle, we won't be so keen to slap them down ever again. Not good.