Theoretical Imperial Order of Battle

[Simon_Jester]

And doing so requires an ultraheavy 'main gun' that dwarfs all known conventional turbolaser and ion cannon installations, a spinal mount weapon several kilometers long.

[NecronLord]

Yep. I assume the success of Y-wings in disabling that is why there weren't more of that style; it was experimental, but it did a number on destroyers while it existed, before Anakin showed the world how to disable it.

[Batman]

Um- that gun was mounted 'perpendicular' to the ship's longitudinal axis. I wouldn't exactly call that a spinal mount.

[RogueIce]

I'm not sure that paradigm was ever actually true; back in the day it was often evoked to rebut then-canon EU sources like the Rogue Squadron books, the X-wing games, and so forth. But never did I actually see in the film 'They're going for the medical frigate!' followed by 'No worries, it's reactor is massively larger than TIE interceptors, so let's just let them bounce off the shields' which is what you'd have expected the reply to be in the SDN-notion that all combat just comes back to weapons output.

And it was a silly thing to object to anyway, because it wasn't really presented as simply as "12 X-wings > ISD" or any such nonsense.

When they had those limited numbers, when fighting a VSD in the Graveyard, it took a precision attack that left the fighters - flown by some of the galaxy's best aces, no less - extremely vulnerable to the Imperial fighters. Were it not for the Twi'leks providing cover, they couldn't have fired off the targeted missile salvo necessary to harm the VSD. And even then it was really only the surprise intervention of a capital ship that ended up saving them because those 12 X-wings just couldn't sustain the attack enough to overcome the Imperial countertactics.

Wraith Squadron was less "precisely aimed on a pinpoint spot" than the Rogue Squadron books were, but those were major fleet engagements with lots of fighters, including numerous dedicated bomber craft, so the situations weren't comparable.

So yeah, capital ships were vulnerable to fighters but it wasn't like a squadron of X-wings could just pick off ISDs at their leisure. Only the games were really like that but game mechanics were never considered canon so it didn't matter as much.

[Purple]

There is no reason to assume that the thirty-fighter attack launched by the Rebels at Yavin represents their maximum-effort possible attack on the Death Star. The same attack launched with, say, three hundred fighters might well have had a better chance of success. Jedi or no Jedi.

And had the commanders not been arrogant and deployed a fleet of fighters to defend the DS not even 3000 rebel craft would have succeeded. If anything, I think that a larger attack would have less chance of success because it would have been taken far more seriously.

Moreover, Motti could not know what weaknesses the technical data on the Death Star might reveal. Any weaknesses the Empire already knew of would have been corrected, but unknown bugs crop up in complicated designs all the time. What if there had been an even more easily exploited weakness? It would be blind stupidity to dismiss this possibility.

And yet it is also stupid to condemn a man for making a statement in good faith based on information not known to him.

[Galvatron]

And doing so requires an ultraheavy 'main gun' that dwarfs all known conventional turbolaser and ion cannon installations, a spinal mount weapon several kilometers long.

I would shit my pants if an Executor-class ship split open like a Zentradi command ship to fire its main gun.

[Adam Reynolds]

Even if we neglect burst overload with shields, a Mandator can kill an ISD in a fraction of the time it takes 72 ISDs to kill a mandator. The 72 ISDs will be attrited down to nothing before they can breach it's shields. If we count burst overload, then a mandator can kill several ISDs per second. The battle would be over in a minute at most.

While this is theoretically the case, it isn't shown in any of the actual battles that we see.

By this logic, the Battle for Endor should have been over in a minute. Executor utterly outclassed the the Rebel fleet to a margin similar to this, and even had friendly capital ships in support. Once the Rebels decided to close, they should have been utterly obliterated, especially given that they even committed Correllian Corvettes as surrogate capital ships. Some of those ships even survived the entire battle, while Executor did not.

This is besides the maneuver point, which is similar to how aircraft carriers are effective in reality. People often wonder how something limited to 30 knots can realistically move in a strategically significant time. The answer is that they do so by increasing the bubble the opposing side is forced to search. If he knew where you were was two hours ago, you are now within a 60 nautical mile circle based on that original point. The longer he takes to find you, the larger that bubble gets. Which only serves to make his problem of detection all the more difficult.

Such tactics are also why the Rebels won at Endor. A Nebulon B got into Executor's trench, where its heavy guns were useless. A star destroyer doing the same thing to a Mandator would be able to engage with its entire arsenal, while the Mandator would be unable to respond in kind. If a Mandator has its arsenal evenly dispersed across its hull, it has an even worse problem in that most of its weapons are useless in any given direction.

And had the commanders not been arrogant and deployed a fleet of fighters to defend the DS not even 3000 rebel craft would have succeeded. If anything, I think that a larger attack would have less chance of success because it would have been taken far more seriously.

My theory is that the Imperial officers onboard the Death Star had no idea about the weakness until after the battle broke out. Only Vader knew about it because it was serving as a safeguard against the possibility that Tarkin would rebel. It is why only Vader was really concerned about finding the plans and why he immediately responded to the Rebel attack personally, as he didn't want the weakness to be known to the Death Star crew either. Obviously that part didn't work.

It was always intended to be something Vader could attack in the event of a problem. It was why Vader was dispatched to the Death Star while the plans were in Rebel hands, as he was the only one who knew about it and knew it would be a threat.

[Galvatron]

By this logic, the Battle for Endor should have been over in a minute. Executor utterly outclassed the the Rebel fleet to a margin similar to this, and even had friendly capital ships in support. Once the Rebels decided to close, they should have been utterly obliterated, especially given that they even committed Correllian Corvettes as surrogate capital ships. Some of those ships even survived the entire battle, while Executor did not.

Do we have any evidence to suggest that the Imperial fleet disobeyed the Emperor's orders and retaliated against the closing rebel warships with their heavy turbolasers?

My theory is that the Imperial officers onboard the Death Star had no idea about the weakness until after the battle broke out. Only Vader knew about it because it was serving as a safeguard against the possibility that Tarkin would rebel. It is why only Vader was really concerned about finding the plans and why he immediately responded to the Rebel attack personally, as he didn't want the weakness to be known to the Death Star crew either. Obviously that part didn't work.

It was always intended to be something Vader could attack in the event of a problem. It was why Vader was dispatched to the Death Star while the plans were in Rebel hands, as he was the only one who knew about it and knew it would be a threat.

That is an interesting theory.

[Simon_Jester]

There is no reason to assume that the thirty-fighter attack launched by the Rebels at Yavin represents their maximum-effort possible attack on the Death Star. The same attack launched with, say, three hundred fighters might well have had a better chance of success. Jedi or no Jedi.

And had the commanders not been arrogant and deployed a fleet of fighters to defend the DS not even 3000 rebel craft would have succeeded. If anything, I think that a larger attack would have less chance of success because it would have been taken far more seriously.

In a massive fighter melee of 3000 fighters versus 300 (or 3000), unpredictable things can happen. Maybe one lucky squadron gets through. Maybe the Rebels deliberately sacrifice a thousand fighters- it is plausible they have that many, or even more- just to create an opening for a squadron with torpedoes to hit a key weakness.

The thing you are missing here is that the outcome of such a battle, of a major, maximum effort Rebel attack made using every weapon and every trick at their disposal, after learning the full technical details and characteristics of the battlestation... such an outcome is NOT PREDICTABLE.

It is literally never a good idea, or a particularly sensible idea, in warfare to assume that when the enemy has full knowledge of everything about you, they will be unable to do anything effective. Especially against an enemy as committed and (relatively) well equipped as the Rebel Alliance.

Moreover, Motti could not know what weaknesses the technical data on the Death Star might reveal. Any weaknesses the Empire already knew of would have been corrected, but unknown bugs crop up in complicated designs all the time. What if there had been an even more easily exploited weakness? It would be blind stupidity to dismiss this possibility.

And yet it is also stupid to condemn a man for making a statement in good faith based on information not known to him.

If Motti was making such a statement 'in good faith' he was a fool, one utterly ignorant of basic principles of military strategy and common sense. One too arrogant to be fit for military command.

He was assuming that despite having no idea what vulnerabilities the Rebels might find and exploit, and despite having little knowledge of what resources the Rebels might have to exploit them, there was no reason to be concerned or even to make a serious effort to recover the secrets of the Death Star's design.

It is difficult to overstate just how arrogant and ignorant this is. By comparison, the decision to not bother scrambling fighters to counter the thirty X- and Y-Wings was the height of common sense and good judgment.

[AniThyng]

By this logic, the Battle for Endor should have been over in a minute. Executor utterly outclassed the the Rebel fleet to a margin similar to this, and even had friendly capital ships in support. Once the Rebels decided to close, they should have been utterly obliterated, especially given that they even committed Correllian Corvettes as surrogate capital ships. Some of those ships even survived the entire battle, while Executor did not.

Do we have any evidence to suggest that the Imperial fleet disobeyed the Emperor's orders and retaliated against the closing rebel warships with their heavy turbolasers?

If the imperial fleet could already obliterate the rebel fleet with their conventional weapons I doubt the death stars superlaser would add any shock value whatsoever. Akbar knew his ships were out matched by the ISDs, but not to that extent.

[Patroklos]

The US could already destroy a Japanese city, far more effectively to boot, with conventional weapons. That didn't stop the nuke attacks from shocking the world.

The point of the Rebel capital ships was to provide cover for the rebel fighters. It may well be that the Imperial capital ships could utterly destroy the rebel fleet in a turbolaser slugfest, but we don't actually know what the effectiveness of turbolaser power vs shield power is (We don't know the efficiency of the tech for either for instance, so we can't even use reactor size). It could well be that it might take several rounds of volley fire for even an Executor to take out a MonCal even if the power disparity is extreme. It doesn't matter if every Rebel cap ship present dies, all that matters is that they provide time for the fighters to get to the DS core.

So if the super laser can actually one shot a MonCal the fleet can't cover the fighters for any meaningful time, and since they were not even able to start their attack run on the DS yet based on what Ackbar knew at the time he was losing cruisers for nothing.

[Adam Reynolds]

Do we have any evidence to suggest that the Imperial fleet disobeyed the Emperor's orders and retaliated against the closing rebel warships with their heavy turbolasers?

No, but by the time that Executor was destroyed, the Empire seemed like they were actually fighting. The level of desperation showed in the final moments on Executor did not look like a military that was holding back.

We also see a very starfighter focused view of the battle, so we have no real evidence in either direction. Though Ackbar's dialog when Lando suggests the point blank tactic indicates that he expected the Empire to begin opening up with everything they had. His orders to attack Executor also indicates that it was considered a threat to the rest of the fleet.

If the imperial fleet could already obliterate the rebel fleet with their conventional weapons I doubt the death stars superlaser would add any shock value whatsoever. Akbar knew his ships were out matched by the ISDs, but not to that extent.

I'm pretty sure a bigger reason for using the Death Star was for psychological rather than tactical effect. Even if the Imperial fleet could do the job, it wouldn't look as dramatic, which was important to the Emperor when it came to dealing with Luke.

[Darth Tedious]

Further to that, a great deal of the psychological impact would have come from the Death Star being operational (Palpy makes a point of taunting Luke about it, and Lando's reaction was fairly telling)
It really drove home the fact that it was indeed A TRAP, and that they'd been trolled all along

Many Bothans died to bring them misinformation

[Galvatron]

Do we have any evidence to suggest that the Imperial fleet disobeyed the Emperor's orders and retaliated against the closing rebel warships with their heavy turbolasers?

No, but by the time that Executor was destroyed, the Empire seemed like they were actually fighting. The level of desperation showed in the final moments on Executor did not look like a military that was holding back.

Piett's order to intensify forward "batteries" so that nothing could get through sounded like a purely defensive measure to compensate for the loss of the Executor's bridge deflector shields. It seems to me that the big ships were using point defense lasers to fend off starfighter attacks, but held back with their big guns because doing otherwise would violate a direct order from the Emperor.

Hence, if the Imperial fleet had been allowed to engage the rebels with everything they had, I doubt the battle would have lasted long (which sounds like what Ackbar expected).

[Adam Reynolds]

Piett's order to intensify forward "batteries" so that nothing could get through sounded like a purely defensive measure to compensate for the loss of the Executor's bridge deflector shields. It seems to me that the big ships were using point defense lasers to fend off starfighter attacks, but held back with their big guns because doing otherwise would violate a direct order from the Emperor.

That specific part seems defensive, but at that point in the battle, the Imperial fleet has absolutely no reason to hold back. Their orders were to keep the Rebels from escaping. If they don't engage fully, the Rebels would escape(or win outright, as they do). Also, the fact that Luke could see turbolaser fire from his distant vantage point means it has to be heavy turbolaser fire.

Though I also think that the Rebel fleet was optimized to kill star destroyers, while star destroyers were optimized to chase smaller Rebel ships. This also explains why the Rebel fleet was somewhat worried about Imperial fighters, as their ships had both their shields and weapons optimized for action against Imperial capital ships. So when they ended up in a fleet battle, the Rebels had a decisive advantage. Especially as their fighters gained and maintained superiority throughout the engagement.

It is odd that we never see noticeably Imperial heavy turbolasers being used, when in Clone Wars we see the exact opposite with only heavy turbolasers ever used, even against starfighters. Which indicates that this really is an out of universe issue. With physical models, their ability to move the weapons was rather limited. With CGI models, it is easier to model all of the shots coming from the same place.

[MKSheppard]

Ten years ago, you'd have been roasted as a heretic for saying that here.

Ahem.

More seriously; compare the size of the reactor bulb on the ISD to that of a snubfighter.



That little purple pixel line is an X-Wing to the same scale. (roughly).

You can see how starfighters can pose a serious commerce raiding threat to the smallest capital units (Corvettes), simply by existing. But for the larger units? It's not really a plausible threat in the age of ENERGY SHIELDING.

But what if Snubfighter doctrine isn't about brute strength, but using speed and manouverability to avoid outgoing enemy fire and that same speed/manouverability to move into position to exploit flaws or weaknesses in energy shielding from capital ships?

We know that SW shielding can be focused double forward / double aft, etc.

So what if SW heavy duty (as in strong enough to withstand a gigaton level turbolaser blast) energy shielding isn't skin-hugging, but more of a 'beamed' heavy plate analogue?

EDITED TO ADD:


I had a small skin hugging shield left anyway, because they need something like that anyway to avoid damage from regular operations from micrometeroids or space debris hitting them as they manouver at high fractions of sublight speed.

This way, snubfighters would be able to manouver around the shielding to attrit various aspects of an ISD -- a proton torpedo or concussion missile into a gun turret here and there, or into the infamous sensor domes, making it important enough for the Empire to have it's own counter snubfighter doctrine in the form of carried starfighters?

[Galvatron]

Though I also think that the Rebel fleet was optimized to kill star destroyers, while star destroyers were optimized to chase smaller Rebel ships.

Except for their orders.

If it wasn't for Vader and Palpatine, the Empire should have won in every movie.

In ANH, Vader advised Tarkin to keep Leia alive as bait. After that, he advised Tarkin to let the Falcon escape with the Death Star plans. If it wasn't for Vader's bad advice, Leia would have been executed and R2 never would have made it to Yavin. People always blame Tarkin for the loss, but it was really Vader's bad advice that put the rebels in a position to eek out a major victory.

In TESB, Vader's desire to capture the Falcon meant that the pursuing Imperial ships deliberately held back when they probably could have destroyed it with ease. I'm sure none of the star destroyer captains wanted to face Vader after accidentally vaporizing his prize.

In ROTJ, Palpatine allowed the fleet's fighters to attack the rebel fleet, but ordered the warships not to. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if none of the star destroyers fired a single shot meant to destroy the rebel cruisers. I'm sure they returned fire, but probably to disable rather than destroy. I imagine it was frustrating for them.

[Elheru Aran]

In ANH, Vader advised Tarkin to keep Leia alive as bait. After that, he advised Tarkin to let the Falcon escape with the Death Star plans. If it wasn't for Vader's bad advice, Leia would have been executed and R2 never would have made it to Yavin. People always blame Tarkin for the loss, but it was really Vader's bad advice that put the rebels in a position to eek out a major victory.

Point of order.

If they hadn't let the Falcon go, they may not have found the Rebel base on Yavin. While they may lose the Princess, the movement would still have carried on without Leia Organa. Short term, yes, it would have been an Imperial victory (Death Star survives) but long term they could well have had further difficulty with the Rebellion, especially if Luke Skywalker made it to Yavin and was able to help them attack the Death Star.

[Galvatron]

If they hadn't let the Falcon go, how do you think Luke makes it off the Death Star alive?

[Elheru Aran]

Mm, I was going on an 'if they killed Leia but let the Falcon go' thing. My thoughts got mixed up somewhere in there...

[Galvatron]

Even if the Falcon did make it to Yavin, imagine if Tarkin sent just a single ISD to recon.

[RogueIce]

But what if Snubfighter doctrine isn't about brute strength, but using speed and manouverability to avoid outgoing enemy fire and that same speed/manouverability to move into position to exploit flaws or weaknesses in energy shielding from capital ships?

We know that SW shielding can be focused double forward / double aft, etc.

So what if SW heavy duty (as in strong enough to withstand a gigaton level turbolaser blast) energy shielding isn't skin-hugging, but more of a 'beamed' heavy plate analogue?

EDITED TO ADD:

http://i.imgur.com/kv3We66.gif
I had a small skin hugging shield left anyway, because they need something like that anyway to avoid damage from regular operations from micrometeroids or space debris hitting them as they manouver at high fractions of sublight speed.

This way, snubfighters would be able to manouver around the shielding to attrit various aspects of an ISD -- a proton torpedo or concussion missile into a gun turret here and there, or into the infamous sensor domes, making it important enough for the Empire to have it's own counter snubfighter doctrine in the form of carried starfighters?

I'd have to rewatch the episode, but IIRC Anakin's Y-wings basically ignored the shields of the Malevolence when they made their attack, so this theory could have some backing from TCW. Other capship vs fighter engagements in the show could be similar.

[Adam Reynolds]

I had a small skin hugging shield left anyway, because they need something like that anyway to avoid damage from regular operations from micrometeroids or space debris hitting them as they manouver at high fractions of sublight speed.

This way, snubfighters would be able to manouver around the shielding to attrit various aspects of an ISD -- a proton torpedo or concussion missile into a gun turret here and there, or into the infamous sensor domes, making it important enough for the Empire to have it's own counter snubfighter doctrine in the form of carried starfighters?

This is largely the same as Brian Young's theory in this respect. Though he emits the inner shields, which is my key problem with his version of the theory, as there is evidence that secondary shields also matter, as in the case of Executor and Malvolence.

Two layers of shielding also explains why capital ships bother with armor, as it mostly serves as a bonus defense against fighter attack that eliminates the need for shields except over vital areas like the bridge. The level of defensive firepower that capital ships can throw up also means that even successful fighter attacks will take significant casualties. As shown with Anakin's attack against Malvolence, it can even cause the attackers to break off their attack.

Though some of the CIS ships in the Clone Wars seem to have rather crap armor, as shown by the fact that Jedi starfighters armed with mere laser cannon can heavily damage them.

EDIT: Another point is that fighters would be more effective when supported by friendly capital ships, as those capital ships would be able to weaken the outer shield further, making their job easier and making it harder for capital ships to plug the gaps with turbolaser fire(as Executor was presumably trying to do).

Also, my technical argument is that fighters physically push through the shield seams in a similar fashion to how it is possible to push through theater shields. So fighter shields push through the outer shield by tricking the system into treating the two shields as part of the same system. This is why the Rebel fighters in ANH put their deflectors to double front, as it made it more effective.

I'd have to rewatch the episode, but IIRC Anakin's Y-wings basically ignored the shields of the Malevolence when they made their attack, so this theory could have some backing from TCW. Other capship vs fighter engagements in the show could be similar.

Brian's theory cites the attack against Malvolence as a key piece of evidence. Though the fighter attack did not fully ignore the shields, as Ashoka and Plo Koon both pointed out that casualties meant a lessened chance of penetrating the bridge shields. It does fit the two layers theory nicely however. They penetrated the outer shields but still had difficulty penetrating the bridge shields, while hitting the hull was almost entirely pointless due to the heavy armor and lack of critical systems.

In ANH, Vader advised Tarkin to keep Leia alive as bait. After that, he advised Tarkin to let the Falcon escape with the Death Star plans. If it wasn't for Vader's bad advice, Leia would have been executed and R2 never would have made it to Yavin. People always blame Tarkin for the loss, but it was really Vader's bad advice that put the rebels in a position to eek out a major victory.

Going by my intentional vulnerability theory, part of the problem was a lack of communication. Vader knew the weakness, but also knew that he couldn't reveal it to Tarkin, or it would loose its value as a failsafe. Revealing the value of the Rebel plans would cause Tarkin to question the survivability of his own battle station.

In TESB, Vader's desire to capture the Falcon meant that the pursuing Imperial ships deliberately held back when they probably could have destroyed it with ease. I'm sure none of the star destroyer captains wanted to face Vader after accidentally vaporizing his prize.

What would they accomplish by killing the Millennium Falcon? When fighting an insurgency, capturing people alive is vastly more useful than killing them outright. And Vader was not wrong in focusing on the threat of Luke. Luke was a vastly greater personal threat to Vader or the Emperor than the rest of the Rebel Alliance put together, especially if there was something else involved(see my below theory).

In ROTJ, Palpatine allowed the fleet's fighters to attack the rebel fleet, but ordered the warships not to. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if none of the star destroyers fired a single shot meant to destroy the rebel cruisers. I'm sure they returned fire, but probably to disable rather than destroy. I imagine it was frustrating for them.

That is going too far. While the Imperial fleet undoubtedly avoided firing their heavy weapons until the Rebel fleet was on top of them, the level of desperation shown by the Rebel Alliance after they close indicates that the Empire was fighting properly, but that most Rebel capital ships had out maneuvered them such that the heaviest weapons were mostly useless, which we directly see in several scenes.

If they hadn't let the Falcon go, they may not have found the Rebel base on Yavin. While they may lose the Princess, the movement would still have carried on without Leia Organa. Short term, yes, it would have been an Imperial victory (Death Star survives) but long term they could well have had further difficulty with the Rebellion, especially if Luke Skywalker made it to Yavin and was able to help them attack the Death Star.

Had the Death Star survived the Rebel Alliance would have fallen apart. Would Mon Calamari rebel under the threat of a Death Star? Would anyone house a Rebel base or be caught supplying them if it meant the possibility of annihilation.

Maybe the Death Star could still be attacked in the long run, but without the plans that is unlikely.

Even if the Falcon did make it to Yavin, imagine if Tarkin sent just a single ISD to recon.

What difference would that have made? An ISD showing up early would have done nothing. It also would have been a political weakness for Tarkin to not use his pet weapon.
______________
Anyway, as to the issue of the lack of military strategy by the two Sith Lords, I wonder if there was something bigger we were not seeing, that will be tied together with the new movies. Perhaps they were more concerned with machinations regarding the Force rather than with the Rebel Alliance. The Death Star might also play a role in this as well, hence Vader's dialog about its power being insignificant.

Look at the dialog between Vader and The Emperor and Vader and Luke in ESB. They reference turning Luke, that he could be a great asset, and Vader mentions to Luke that he does not yet realize his importance.

Kylo Ren also mentions to Vader's helmet* that he will finish what his grandfather started. Perhaps this longer term goal is what he was referring to. We also have references in Aftermath to the characters looking for the wellspring of the Dark Side, as well as whatever Luke was looking for in TFA. This would explain why the Emperor seems to have lost the sort of strategic thinking he was previously so good at, he was preoccupied with something else and only bothered to come back with the chance of converting Luke, which served a double purpose.

This might also explain why Vader did not appear to be as effective during ANH, almost as if he was distracted. If Vader was mostly concerned with a threat involving the Force, it would explain why he was on a leash, that his real purpose was concealed from the Imperial hierarchy. He was only again interested in the Rebel Alliance when Luke appeared.

* As a side note, this statement sounds incredibly stupid. As another side note, is it "the Force" or "The Force" I can't decide.

[Patroklos]

That specific part seems defensive, but at that point in the battle, the Imperial fleet has absolutely no reason to hold back. Their orders were to keep the Rebels from escaping. If they don't engage fully, the Rebels would escape(or win outright, as they do). Also, the fact that Luke could see turbolaser fire from his distant vantage point means it has to be heavy turbolaser fire.

They had every reason to hold back, specifically that they were ORDERED to hold back. They only need to keep the Rebels from escaping if they actually try to escape, which they never did. From the perspective of the Imperial fleet the Rebels were making their job easier, though I am sure some commanders noted the Rebels were using them as a screen once the DS started shooting.

The fact is we only see one capital ship, an ISD, destroyed from conventional combat that presumably didn't involve some niche (aka writers fiat) circumstance. We have no idea what the circumstances of that ship's destruction is and since all the scenes of that battle are from the Rebel perspective with the exception of a few seconds of dialogue from the Executor's bridge and a couple TIE fighter pilot head shots that doesn't really tell us anything.

There is zero reasons the assume the Imperials made any effort to destroy the Rebel fleet (even with their fighters), and even if they did we see only one capital ship destroyed from conventional combat period. In fact, its the only capital ship we see destroyed by conventional means (fighter or ship to ship combat) IN ALL THREE MOVIES. The only conclusion that can be drawn from that is that Imperial ships, when just sitting there absorbing everything the best of the Rebel fleet can dish out, can basically shrug off their firepower for an extended period of time with the loss of one ship out of a couple dozen.

And that turbo laser fire seen from the throne room could have been from any ship, there is no way to say it is either Imperial or Rebel. Hell, there is no reason you can say it is even capital ship fire. We also see in several scenes that the Rebel and Imperial ships are well mixed, meaning the direction of fire tells us nothing.

Though I also think that the Rebel fleet was optimized to kill star destroyers, while star destroyers were optimized to chase smaller Rebel ships. This also explains why the Rebel fleet was somewhat worried about Imperial fighters, as their ships had both their shields and weapons optimized for action against Imperial capital ships. So when they ended up in a fleet battle, the Rebels had a decisive advantage. Especially as their fighters gained and maintained superiority throughout the engagement.

There is nothing in canon to suggest this. It is canon that turbolasers can have their power dialed, so there is no reason to do this in the first place.

It is odd that we never see noticeably Imperial heavy turbolasers being used, when in Clone Wars we see the exact opposite with only heavy turbolasers ever used, even against starfighters. Which indicates that this really is an out of universe issue. With physical models, their ability to move the weapons was rather limited. With CGI models, it is easier to model all of the shots coming from the same place.

Or that we just don't see circumstances that warranted it. The only target that we see an Imperial ship shoot at that really warrants their heavy weapons (when we are not specifically told they can't use them) is an asteroid. Which is still just an unshielded/unarmored mass probably still not worth it actually.

That is going too far. While the Imperial fleet undoubtedly avoided firing their heavy weapons until the Rebel fleet was on top of them, the level of desperation shown by the Rebel Alliance after they close indicates that the Empire was fighting properly, but that most Rebel capital ships had out maneuvered them such that the heaviest weapons were mostly useless, which we directly see in several scenes.

How exactly did the Rebels act more desperate once they closed? The only thing we have from the perspective of the Rebels concerning how the Imperial capital ships are fighting is to note they were acting weird by NOT attacking. They say nothing else about the matter. There is nothing else in the later to indicate they are somehow more desperate or the activity of the Imperials had changed. In fact if the Imperials had started shooting you would think that would be something the would mention. This is all after the famous "ITS A TRAP" scene after all, please point to where Ackbar or anyone else shows more "desperation" than that.

Also your idea that the Rebels were somehow out of the Imperial firing arcs is preposterous. Sure the mingled with the Imperial fleet, but we get two scenes looking directly out the Executor's bridge window showing five moncal cruisers as sitting ducks for not just the Executor but several ISD too. We also get the opposite from Ackbar's flag bridge showing him staring multiple ISDs and the Executor in the face.

[Simon_Jester]

That little purple pixel line is an X-Wing to the same scale. (roughly).

Honestly, the puniness of the X-Wing is irrelevant if the X-Wing's munitions are powerful enough to stand a chance of penetrating. And that depends entirely on details of Star Wars technology- how powerful a warhead can you pack into a proton torpedo, and how big a turbolaser do you need to hit as hard as the warhead of said torpedo? I mean, in real life a nuclear warhead the size of a beer keg is a massive, deadly threat to just about any ship that can be built no matter how large. Star Wars doesn't go that far, but depending on how far down the scale it does go... yeah.

But what if Snubfighter doctrine isn't about brute strength, but using speed and manouverability to avoid outgoing enemy fire and that same speed/manouverability to move into position to exploit flaws or weaknesses in energy shielding from capital ships?

We know that SW shielding can be focused double forward / double aft, etc.

So what if SW heavy duty (as in strong enough to withstand a gigaton level turbolaser blast) energy shielding isn't skin-hugging, but more of a 'beamed' heavy plate analogue?...

This is very compellingly true. I like it.

If it wasn't for Vader and Palpatine, the Empire should have won in every movie.

In ANH, Vader advised Tarkin to keep Leia alive as bait. After that, he advised Tarkin to let the Falcon escape with the Death Star plans. If it wasn't for Vader's bad advice, Leia would have been executed and R2 never would have made it to Yavin. People always blame Tarkin for the loss, but it was really Vader's bad advice that put the rebels in a position to eek out a major victory.

Keeping Leia alive was sensible because she's a high value prisoner. She has a lot of knowledge about the Rebels and it's unlikely that even Vader could interrogate her to the point of knowing everything useful she knows in a short time.

Letting the Falcon escape with a tracking beacon was definitely a major gamble. In fairness to Vader, he may not have even known that the R2 unit with the stolen Death Star plans was literally right there on the station and would escape on the Falcon. That would seem a priori unlikely. You'd expect that the Rebels, assuming they recovered the plans, would send them direct to Yavin. Any Rebels that tried to rescue Leia would presumably be a crack commando team who would NOT be taking with them any other special high-value objects or data.

Things played out as they did only because the group that recovered the plans just happened to be a bunch of random clueless people who knew nothing whatsoever about the Rebels' plans and organization, but who decided to help the Rebels anyway in their clueless way.

In TESB, Vader's desire to capture the Falcon meant that the pursuing Imperial ships deliberately held back when they probably could have destroyed it with ease. I'm sure none of the star destroyer captains wanted to face Vader after accidentally vaporizing his prize.

This is true. On the other hand, this served Vader's purposes admirably. He accomplished exactly what he set out to accomplish- luring Luke out to where he could be easily defeated. The only problem was that Luke turned out to be incredibly, suicidally stubborn, which Vader could not reasonably have foreseen. Note that HE turned to the Dark Side readily when it turned out to be the 'only way' to save someone he cared about. He may have assumed Luke would do the same.