Theoretical Imperial Order of Battle

[AniThyng]

Source: ROTJ novelization p.154

Desperately, he was shouting into his comlink, over the noise of continuous explosions, talking to Ackbar in the Alliance command ship. "I said closer! Move in as close as you can and engage the Star Destroyers at point-blank range- that way the Death Star won't be able to fire at us without knocking out its own ships!"

"But no one's ever gone nose to nose at that range, between supervessels like their Destroyers and our Cruisers!" Ackbar fumed at the unthinkable- but their options were running out.

"Great!" yelled Lando, skimming over the surface of the Destroyer. "Then we're inventing a new kind of combat!"

"We know nothing about the tactics of such a confrontation!" Ackbar protested.

"We know as much as they do!" Lando hollered. "And they'll think we know more!" Bluffing was always dangerous in the last hand; but sometimes, when all your money was in the pot, it was the only way to win- and Lando never played to lose.

"At that close range, we won't last long against those Star Destroyers." Ackbar was already feeling giddy with resignation.

"We'll last longer than we will against that Death Star, and we might just take a few of them with us!" Lando whooped. With a jolt, one of his forward guns was blown away. He put the Falcon into a controlled spin, and careened around the belly of the Imperial leviathan.

With little else to lose, Ackbar decided to try Calrissian's strategy. In the next minutes, dozens of Rebel Cruisers moved in astronomically close to the Imperial Star Destroyers- and the colossal antagonists began blasting away at each other, like tanks at twenty paces, while hundreds of tiny fighters raced across their surfaces, zipping between laser bolts as they chased around the massive hulls.

1) Ackbar considers rebel cruisers and Imperial Star Destroyers as "supervessels" - and seems to think they are at least comparable, not absurdly overmatched - i think generally the idea is it takes 2 of the regular Mon Cal cruisers to match an ISD in the old sourcebooks?
2) It does seem like Ackbar doesn't expect to last long against the Imperial fleet - but he also makes a point of stating "at that close range", which would seem to imply they'll do better at conventional combat ranges, whatever those are.
3) The two sides were "blasting away at each other", so it's not like the Imperial fleet was holding back.

All invalidated by film if invalidated, of course.

At most certainly at no point did anyone involved in the battle think that an Executor-class vessel was so powerful it could obliterate anything near to 72 ISD's in "minutes". I still maintain that if dreadnoughts were capable of such things the Rebel fleet would hardly be any more terrified of the Death Star than it would be by the presence of the Executor alone.

The other point about relative power of munitions also makes sense - true, you could shoot at a tank with a machine gun on a humvee and not hurt it one bit, but put a TOW missile on that humvee...

Or to use the old naval analogies - WW2 Destroyers would not have any chance of actually hurting a Battleship's vitals with their guns, but it will wear down its superstructure and equipment, and with torpedoes, actually cripple if not outright sink the battleship.

[Galvatron]

Letting the Falcon escape with a tracking beacon was definitely a major gamble. In fairness to Vader, he may not have even known that the R2 unit with the stolen Death Star plans was literally right there on the station and would escape on the Falcon. That would seem a priori unlikely.

Upon hearing that the Falcon was the same freighter that blasted its way out of Mos Eisley, Vader himself said that they must be trying to return the stolen plans to the Princess Leia. Whether he knew they were in Artoo or not isn't the point. He knowingly allowed them to escape with the plans that were later used to find and exploit the Death Star's weakness.

[NecronLord]

3) The two sides were "blasting away at each other", so it's not like the Imperial fleet was holding back.

All invalidated by film if invalidated, of course.

Only one Star Destroyer fires a heavy shot from its main guns at Endor in the film, and that one is destroyed in the exchange of fire a moment later - perhaps its crew disobeyed in panic when its Mon Cal attacker overwhelmed its shields. The rest sit their with their heavy guns silent or conveniently do not fire them when the camera is watching.

It's in this engagement behind the Excecutor - though that's not the main cannon firing there; it's a few frames before, I don't have DVDs with me at present to screenshot exactly. Destroyer destroyed

This shot where the destroyer is firing its trench guns at a rebel frigate shows they're using some guns, but others show they're in position to fire off the big guns but aren't firing.

Given the dialogue saying they were not attacking, and the dearth of large weapons fire from the Imperial ships (there's not much from the rebels either mind you) that suggests they weren't fighting at full capacity.

[Galvatron]

Given the dialogue saying they were not attacking, and the dearth of large weapons fire from the Imperial ships (there's not much from the rebels either mind you) that suggests they weren't fighting at full capacity.

As I said before, my guess is that any ISD captains who had the balls to fight back may have ordered retaliatory fire to only disable non-vital areas like weapons batteries or shield generators. Maybe even the engines and hyperdrives as well since they were ordered to prevent the rebels from escaping.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

What is that quote from?

If you meant that last one in my reply to Rhadamantius, I'm afraid I butchered it from Leitner's original in the first part of "Baltar's Escape[the second of the three "Terra" episodes]" in the original Battlestar Galactica, where Adama is interrogating him on the prison barge; Leitner gobs off to Adama about how the men of the Eastern Alliance are superior, and meant to rule the universe, and Adama responds with "but, how do you explain the Galactica," prompting the quote in question.

[Adam Reynolds]

All invalidated by film if invalidated, of course.

This is the argument being made by the opposing side. That we don't actually see any of the weapons fire claimed in the novelization. Though the same is true for the Rebel fleet to some degree(though admittedly not as much).

Given the dialogue saying they were not attacking, and the dearth of large weapons fire from the Imperial ships (there's not much from the rebels either mind you) that suggests they weren't fighting at full capacity.

This is my problem. While we don't see much heavy weapon fire from star destroyers, we also don't see much from the Rebel fleet either. So either sporadic fire is common in Star Wars fleet battles or the Rebels were holding back too, which is a patently absurd conclusion. For that matter, in the scene in which Executor's crew is concerned that the shields are down, a Mon Cal cruiser has a perfect shot at the bridge and holds its fire. Why were they holding their fire?

If you look at the background in The Battle of Coruscant, you also don't see the full broadsides one would expect in such a battle the overwhelming majority of the time. That would indicate that sporadic weapons fire is actually the norm in most major fleet battles. Or that they stick to lighter weapons that disappear at the distances we usually see.

The dialog about them not attacking was just before the Death Star fired. They were certainly firing more as the Rebel fleet closed with them, as we clearly see from the cockpit of the Millennium Falcon. Why would Ackbar have been concerned with buying time for the fighters inside the Death Star if the Imperial fleet wasn't shooting at them?

[Galvatron]

For that matter, in the scene in which Executor's crew is concerned that the shields are down, a Mon Cal cruiser has a perfect shot at the bridge and holds its fire. Why were they holding their fire?

To conserve power for the shields?

Why would Ackbar have been concerned with buying time for the fighters inside the Death Star if the Imperial fleet wasn't shooting at them?

Because the Imperial fleet was shooting at the fighters.

[Adam Reynolds]

To conserve power for the shields?

When we can destroy the greatest possible enemy threat, lets conserve power to the shields. That makes sense.

It's like an aircraft carrier deciding to keep most of its aircraft in the event of an enemy attack when it is in position to strike at said enemy and neutralize it. Which is of course exactly what basic carrier tactics say you should do. Always keep the overwhelming majority of your aircraft in reserve.

Because the Imperial fleet was shooting at the fighters.

The fighters that were already inside the Death Star? That is rather impressive. And if the Alliance was out to conserve fighters, they should have avoided using them against Executor, which is what the majority of the attack featured.

[Galvatron]

To conserve power for the shields?

When we can destroy the greatest possible enemy threat, lets conserve power to the shields. That makes sense.

Since their mission was to destroy the Death Star, staying alive long enough to do that should have been their top priority. So, yeah, that actually makes sense.

Because the Imperial fleet was shooting at the fighters.

The fighters that were already inside the Death Star? That is rather impressive. And if the Alliance was out to conserve fighters, they should have avoided using them against Executor, which is what the majority of the attack featured.

Good point. I'm not sure what Ackbar thought the Executor was going to do about the Falcon and Wedge or why attacking it would buy them time.

[Adam Reynolds]

The underlying problem with the battle of Endor is that the Rebel fleet actually had no purpose. Fighters could destroy the Death Star, but the fleet was honestly just there to look pretty. It is the same problem as Revenge of the Sith, in which the heroes are in fighters and the capital ships don't actually matter.

The novelization described the Rebel fleet as bombarding the Death Star, but it is not as if they would have destroyed it themselves, especially not with their own fighters inside it.

Since their mission was to destroy the Death Star, staying alive long enough to do that should have been their top priority. So, yeah, that actually makes sense.

It is absolutely worth it to trade a single Mon Cal cruiser for Executor. More than one warship in history has been sacrificed to kill a larger enemy vessel. Modern diesel electric submarines are actually intended to be used in this fashion, in which they die to kill a high value enemy target(like carriers).

Good point. I'm not sure what Ackbar thought the Executor was going to do about the Falcon and Wedge or why attacking it would buy them time.

The only reasonable conclusion is that he meant buying time in the context of protecting his own fleet by destroying the biggest threat.

[Simon_Jester]

The underlying problem with the battle of Endor is that the Rebel fleet actually had no purpose. Fighters could destroy the Death Star, but the fleet was honestly just there to look pretty. It is the same problem as Revenge of the Sith, in which the heroes are in fighters and the capital ships don't actually matter.

From a Watsonian perspective, there are a bunch of things the rebel heavy ships might be for. For example, they might be there as bases for more fighters, in case the Rebels have fighters which are not hyper-capable. Or to ensure that Imperial heavy ships can't inflict massive casualties on the fighters and generally 'blockade' the construction site while the fighters slip inside and wreck things.

For that matter, they may not have had accurate information on the progress of construction, and may have assumed that with the shields down, they might be able to just fire through gaps in the incomplete hull and wreck the second Death Star with turbolasers, no fighter infiltration of the interior required.

From a Doylist perspective, yes, they basically write the Rebel heavy ships as doing nothing while the Imperial heavies exist only to get blown up by fighters.

[Reyvan]

I know its no longer canon, but the briefing for the Battle of Endor in X-Wing alliance shows what the rebel plan was. From what I recall they did expect there to be Imperial capital ships in the area, which is presumably why Han's team wasn't too put off by the presence of the Executor, they just didn't plan on there being that many ships waiting for them.

The rebel fleet was supposed to take up position around the entrance to the Death Star and hold the area while the fighters make their attack, presumably to prevent Imperial fighters from following them in.

That could also be why Ackbar decided to concentrate on the Executor, it might have been trying to get under the rebel fleet so it could start launching fighters under the cover of its shadow, preventing the rebel ships from targeting them and forcing any rebel fighters that engaged to have to do it with their own capital ship support. Without the rebels being able to effectively engage the Executors fighters they could have tried to follow the Falcon down the shaft, though whether that would accomplished anything except managing to destroy the Falcon on the way back out is another matter.

[Agent Sorchus]

I think people are forgetting a major part of the rebel plans. It isn't enough to just destroy the death star, after all the empire can reasonably build another. No they need to garuntee that the Emperor is aboard when it blows and without the firepower of the fleet a small(er) fighter strike sent in from sulust wouldn't be able to blockade the death star to keep the emperor there.

In addition in the OT we never see fighters operate without having a base to fly from in system.

[Patroklos]

There was no chance of the Rebel's blockading the DS. Even if they wanted to once the strike team saw the Executor even the most maximalist reading of the Rebel fleet strength doesn't allow them to assume they can keep that battleship from doing whatever the hell it wants to include evacuating the Emperor. Since Han and team didn't just throw in the towel it doesn't appear getting space superiority was ever the plan.

I always saw the Emperor as a bonus, not the target. They would have done the attack anyway OH WAIT THE EMPEROR IS THERE.Two birds one stone. Even Jererrod didn't know Palpantine was coming so for the Rebels to have that info during their planning would be quite the coup. I suppose the new Rebel One movie will clarify just what exactly the Intel that prompted the attack was and whether the Emperor's itinerary was included. Seems reasonable, DS plans and head of state's personal schedule held in the same vault...

[Adam Reynolds]

Rouge One is about the theft of the plans for the first Death Star, not the second. Who knows if we will ever get more on the second Death Star beyond Shadows of the Empire(though it is no longer canon).

[NecronLord]

In addition in the OT we never see fighters operate without having a base to fly from in system.

Luke goes to and from Dagobah, and R2 maintains his X-wing there, Luke also lands his X-wing on Tattoine in Jedi, which we know from deleted scenes wasn't in a space-port, too.

[NecronLord]

There was no chance of the Rebel's blockading the DS. Even if they wanted to once the strike team saw the Executor even the most maximalist reading of the Rebel fleet strength doesn't allow them to assume they can keep that battleship from doing whatever the hell it wants to include evacuating the Emperor.

Except you know, they could intercept his shuttle and destroy it. Unless you think the Excecutor was going to dock with the station?

Since Han and team didn't just throw in the towel it doesn't appear getting space superiority was ever the plan.

I always saw the Emperor as a bonus, not the target. They would have done the attack anyway OH WAIT THE EMPEROR IS THERE.Two birds one stone. Even Jererrod didn't know Palpantine was coming so for the Rebels to have that info during their planning would be quite the coup.

It'd be a coup if it wasn't the Emperor's plan.

[Ralin]

I always saw the Emperor as a bonus, not the target. They would have done the attack anyway OH WAIT THE EMPEROR IS THERE.Two birds one stone. Even Jererrod didn't know Palpantine was coming so for the Rebels to have that info during their planning would be quite the coup. I suppose the new Rebel One movie will clarify just what exactly the Intel that prompted the attack was and whether the Emperor's itinerary was included. Seems reasonable, DS plans and head of state's personal schedule held in the same vault...

Can't remember where, but there was some EU novel that mentioned that Mon Mothma had to be talked out of calling the attack off when they found out the Emperor was going to be there because she was so opposed to assassination as a practice.

[Galvatron]

Can't remember where, but there was some EU novel that mentioned that Mon Mothma had to be talked out of calling the attack off when they found out the Emperor was going to be there because she was so opposed to assassination as a practice.

Ugh. I hope that was the old EU.

[Patroklos]

How the hell would that count as an assassination anyway?

[Adam Reynolds]

How the hell would that count as an assassination anyway?

Because it was a deliberate attack against a head of state with the intent to kill him. Deliberately targeting individuals is generally held to a different standard that attacking military targets, as odd as that is in many ways. While he was also touring a military installation at the time, had President Bush hypothetically been assassinated during his "Mission Accomplished*" speech about the USS Lincoln, would anyone call it anything other than an assassination? Even if the target was actually the warship itself.

It's partially why there is such controversy of the current US policy of "targeted" killing(in addition to the fact that they aren't very discriminate).

* Though the carrier was within American waters at the time. In fact it was close enough(30 miles) that Bush's infamous jet landing was not necessary. Marine One could have made the journey quite easily, with the distance only being 30 miles. Also, on another amusing note, Bin Laden was killed by Obama's order eight years to the day after this speech. Though in a rather minor defense of Bush, the banner actually was for the ship rather than his speech. But he still chose to give it in front of said banner. In other news I spent far too much time reading the wikipedia article on this just to find the ship name.

[Simon_Jester]

In addition in the OT we never see fighters operate without having a base to fly from in system.

Luke goes to and from Dagobah, and R2 maintains his X-wing there, Luke also lands his X-wing on Tattoine in Jedi, which we know from deleted scenes wasn't in a space-port, too.

That still doesn't mean fighters can operate in combat without a base or 'carrier' of some kind. Hyperspace-capable X-Wings are at least theoretically suitable for long distance raids where they jump in, attack a single target, and jump out, but that isn't the model the Rebels use at Endor.

Remember, it isn't just about where you can physically land your plane, it's about having a place to restock ammunition, refuel, repair damage, have somewhere to go that you can take off from again if your craft is too damaged to take off again, and so on.

There was no chance of the Rebel's blockading the DS. Even if they wanted to once the strike team saw the Executor even the most maximalist reading of the Rebel fleet strength doesn't allow them to assume they can keep that battleship from doing whatever the hell it wants to include evacuating the Emperor.

Except you know, they could intercept his shuttle and destroy it. Unless you think the Excecutor was going to dock with the station?

Firstly, it's quite possible that a station the size of the DS-II actually has a dock for an Executor-class dreadnought. Secondly, even if it doesn't, the Executor has a LOT of fighters, very possibly enough to escort a single target (the Emperor's shuttle) on board no matter what the Rebels try. Given enough time to launch all those fighters and coordinate an evacuation, you could pretty much wrap the Emperor's shuttle in a big ball of TIEs for a short trip (say, a few dozen kilometers) to the point where even Rebel fighters attacking in mass would not be sure of penetrating the defense.

[Elheru Aran]

Firstly, it's quite possible that a station the size of the DS-II actually has a dock for an Executor-class dreadnought. Secondly, even if it doesn't, the Executor has a LOT of fighters, very possibly enough to escort a single target (the Emperor's shuttle) on board no matter what the Rebels try. Given enough time to launch all those fighters and coordinate an evacuation, you could pretty much wrap the Emperor's shuttle in a big ball of TIEs for a short trip (say, a few dozen kilometers) to the point where even Rebel fighters attacking in mass would not be sure of penetrating the defense.

Not to mention any *other* shuttles, assault craft, gunboats, and assorted light military craft. An Executor could dock an Arquitens with ease, for example.

[NecronLord]

In addition in the OT we never see fighters operate without having a base to fly from in system.

Luke goes to and from Dagobah, and R2 maintains his X-wing there, Luke also lands his X-wing on Tattoine in Jedi, which we know from deleted scenes wasn't in a space-port, too.

That still doesn't mean fighters can operate in combat without a base or 'carrier' of some kind. Hyperspace-capable X-Wings are at least theoretically suitable for long distance raids where they jump in, attack a single target, and jump out, but that isn't the model the Rebels use at Endor.

No, it's not. But it is the model they use in Star Wars Rebels; they can do it, it's not theoretical at all, it's a tactical option they did not choose (for good reason). We also see Y-wings attack from venators in another system in Clone Wars. It's also a model used by the Empire in rebels; Vader launches a hyperspace based attack in his TIE advanced at least once.




Hyperspace attacks by fighters from a base outside the target system are a part of Star Wars tactics; from the Clone Wars through to TFA. It's not a 'theoretical' possibility, though I don't think it was suitable at Endor; for reasons shown below.

Remember, it isn't just about where you can physically land your plane, it's about having a place to restock ammunition, refuel, repair damage, have somewhere to go that you can take off from again if your craft is too damaged to take off again, and so on.

Also explored in SW rebels. Yes, the rebel craft have the ability to mount attacks from ad-hoc landing fields, but without secure carriers to launch their hyperspace from they're far less effective. After Vader destroys their first carrier, Phoenix Squadron's ships start suffering problems and their pilots fatigue issues, until the rebels steal a new carrier from the Empire to act as a base.

Firstly, it's quite possible that a station the size of the DS-II actually has a dock for an Executor-class dreadnought. Secondly, even if it doesn't, the Executor has a LOT of fighters, very possibly enough to escort a single target (the Emperor's shuttle) on board no matter what the Rebels try. Given enough time to launch all those fighters and coordinate an evacuation, you could pretty much wrap the Emperor's shuttle in a big ball of TIEs for a short trip (say, a few dozen kilometers) to the point where even Rebel fighters attacking in mass would not be sure of penetrating the defense.

Hence why the rebels brought capital ships; a Mon Cal's turbolaser can't be blocked or intercepted by anything you can mount on a shuttle as far as I know, and such a weapon could plough through hundreds and hundreds of TIEs and smash the shuttle.

In fact if there was no imperial fleet present, and the death star wasn't operational, the rebel forces would be perfectly positioned to blockade the Death Star and stop the Emperor escaping.

I agree with Sorchus generally; that a blockade to stop the Emperor escaping was logically what the rebels intended (they even say 'form a perimeter':

ACKBAR
You can see here the Death Star orbiting the forest Moon of Endor. Although the weapon systems on this Death Star are not yet operational, the Death Star does have a strong defense mechanism. It is protected by an energy shield, which is generated from the nearby forest Moon of Endor. The shield must be deactivated if any attack is to be attempted. Once the shield is down, our cruisers will create a perimeter, while the fighters fly into the superstructure and attempt to knock out the main reactor.

There's a concerned murmur.

Which sounds exactly like what you'd do if you were concerned to stop shuttles and hyper-fighters escaping the target.

I don't think a hyperspace fighter-only attack would not be preferable at Endor, but suggesting there's any doubt it can be done is sketchy at best; it doesn't appear in the OT, but neither do toilets. There's plenty of evidence of such attacks elsewhere. It's just an option the rebels (wisely) did not choose.

[Ralin]

Can't remember where, but there was some EU novel that mentioned that Mon Mothma had to be talked out of calling the attack off when they found out the Emperor was going to be there because she was so opposed to assassination as a practice.

Ugh. I hope that was the old EU.

Belated, but I don't really have a problem with it because it was presented in-universe as a stupid knee jerk reaction by someone who was much more a politician than a military leader, and that basically everyone else involved told her as much.