MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Broomstick »

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
Purple wrote:Still I figure openly arguing with the supervisors to the point of being threatened with being sent home should be a serious thing. Especially if my assumption is right and she does that sort of thing on a regular basis.
Shit sandwiches like DB also know how to game the system in order to stay in the game.
That's the thing - she starts off saying this is a "concern" and trying to portray her complaint as "being helpful". She's using tactics that have, at least some of the time, paid off in the past.

However, our current store director is a woman, not a man (which defuses her usual tactics to try to influence male managers), and has very firm ideas on what she wants done and how. DB is bitching about a reliable worker who might express an opinion to the contrary but definitely will do what is asked to the best of her ability regardless, and who has recently been credited with selling around $900 in merchandise to one customer in about 20 minutes, among other feats. DB isn't bitching about a slacker or mediocre worker, she's bitching about a good worker. She's also resisting the new program intended to solve some long-term problems at the store.

is that enough to get her fired? No. When she want to be she's a good worker, too. She doesn't have to like the new program as long as she does it. Being threatened with being sent home is pretty harsh, but lots of people have survived it. It screws with your chances of promotion, but she's gone 16 years without one so I don't think that's a major worry for her.

In American business inability to adapt to change is a career-killer. That's what she's starting to fall into, but the outcome is more often stagnation and marginalization than outright firing.
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Zaune »

Dalton wrote:We have a saying around here that idiots tend to fail upwards into positions where they can't do too much damage
Is that the Peter Principle, the Dilbert Principle or something else? I forget.
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

Zaune wrote:
Dalton wrote:We have a saying around here that idiots tend to fail upwards into positions where they can't do too much damage
Is that the Peter Principle, the Dilbert Principle or something else? I forget.
It certainly isn't "The Pleasure Principle" by Janet Jackson.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Broomstick »

It's the "Peter Principal".
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Crazedwraith »

Broomstick wrote:It's the "Peter Principal".

Peter Principal is people are promoted until they reach their level of incompetence. (promoted for doing well basically until they reach a job they don't do well and are stuck there)

Intentionally promoting incompetents to management to minimise their damange is the Dilbert Principle.
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Broomstick »

And now for a more positive story....

Our store's lot supervisor is mentally retarded.

And no, that's not an insult and no, it shouldn't be offensive as a statement.

"Bob" (not his real name, of course) is what is often referred to as a "developmentally delayed" individual. I'm pretty sure he lives in a group home and he doesn't drive, he gets subsidized transport as a disabled person. However, he IS good at his job, works his butt off, is very pleasant, and the customers (mostly) like him. He started by hauling shopping carts and trash off the lot and helping people carry their groceries.

He does a good, no great job. In fact, he did such a good job he was promoted to lot supervisor and is now responsible for lot inspections and safety. He's quite vigilant and did a respectable job at yesterday's safety meeting on reporting on his responsibilities. It's an example of how someone who has problems can nonetheless be successful. It's also an example that retail work doesn't require a genius. He's also an example that such improvements can come at any age - Bob is my age, he's not a young guy, but still retains the capacity to learn (as do all of us old farts).

Bob has made other strides in the last couple years since he got a paying job: he's now doing his own shopping and simple cooking, and not the least of things the shopping required him to learn how to handle money. He does require a little extra support, but pays it back in hard work, reliability, and positive attitude.

His future plans are to move into the Garden Center, which has more tasks and more complex tasks. Management is currently working out a plan where he'll probably still continue as lot supervisor part time while working part time in the Garden Center learning the required tasks and skills.

It's actually kind of cool to see him working hard to do better, and having some success.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

More power to him. I totally, absolutely, 100% mean that. Because "handicapped" does not mean "fucking useless."
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Simon_Jester »

Yes. Lack of what we call high intelligence does not automatically mean incompetence, especially for people with a good attitude who are willing to learn from their mistakes.

Conversely, from bitter experience I can say that intelligence does not mean competence, when it is combined with a bad attitude.
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

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Simon_Jester wrote:Yes. Lack of what we call high intelligence does not automatically mean incompetence, especially for people with a good attitude who are willing to learn from their mistakes.
Please tell me you were referring to the ignorance of the masses and didn't just personally equate autism with low intelligence. The autistic spectrum and IQ range are different axes. Pure anecdote, but we had a profoundly autistic guy back at the office who would tic constantly, repeat old conversations out loud, had no indoor voice, lived with his parents in his early-40s, could not handle it if he had to change train routes to get to work and would call in over it, etc, and he could hold an intelligent conversation and was consistently one of our top scorers for QA. In defense of hand-flapping, he never got carpal tunnel syndrome.
Simon_Jester wrote:Conversely, from bitter experience I can say that intelligence does not mean competence, when it is combined with a bad attitude.
We had plenty of those, too.

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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by SCRawl »

Raw Shark wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Yes. Lack of what we call high intelligence does not automatically mean incompetence, especially for people with a good attitude who are willing to learn from their mistakes.
Please tell me you were referring to the ignorance of the masses and didn't just personally equate autism with low intelligence.
I don't know how you could possibly reach the latter interpretation from Simon's response. Autism wasn't brought up at all, or (as far as I can tell) implied or even obliquely referenced.
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Simon_Jester »

Raw Shark wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Yes. Lack of what we call high intelligence does not automatically mean incompetence, especially for people with a good attitude who are willing to learn from their mistakes.
Please tell me you were referring to the ignorance of the masses and didn't just personally equate autism with low intelligence.
:roll:

How pig-ignorant do you think I am?

I was referring to neither the ignorance of the masses, nor to autism.

No, I was referring to "just plain stupid." That elusive, un-diagnosable condition; we all know someone thus impaired, but we can't identify a firmly defined list of symptoms.

So far as I know or have been able to tell, autism and intelligence are totally uncorrelated.

Masses-style ignorance and intelligence ARE (negatively) correlated, but I wasn't actually talking about ignorance, any more than I was talking about autism.

As mentioned, I'm not talking about ignorance or autism. I'm talking about stupid.

Stupid with a good attitude is often better than smart with a bad attitude.
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Borgholio »

Simon, from a teacher's standpoint, how do you feel about the "No Child Left Behind" idea? While noble in principle, students who are like Broom's co-worker would struggle to keep up with a class of "normal" children, but he would thrive if given special attention in a class that moves at his pace. With Bob, for example, he's doing great because everybody else is aware of his issue and helping him to overcome or get around it. But if he were simply treated like everybody else, he would quite likely fail.

Not asking because of anything you said, but this whole topic got me thinking. I've always felt that the No Child Left Behind concept was flawed and wanted to know what someone who has direct experience with it would think.
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Simon_Jester »

Borgholio wrote:Simon, from a teacher's standpoint, how do you feel about the "No Child Left Behind" idea?
Leaving No Child Behind while Racing To The Top is self-contradictory and therefore stupid.

Students with learning disabilities (as distinct from behavioral problems) should be taught in mainstream schools wherever possible, in intensive classes where necessary, but integrated with regular students where this can happen. Students with behavioral problems that cannot be controlled by positive or negative incentives OR medication need to be sent to schools capable of controlling their behavior well enough to permit them to learn, and which can isolate them from other children whose education may be harmed by their disruptive or dangerous behaviors.

Note that when I say "behavioral problem" I mean "this student's behavior is a problem." Not "they are a criminal" or "they are evil" or "they are crazy." Just "this student's behavior does, in point of fact, present a problem for the learning environment of other children.

Some behavioral problems are mental health issues. A LOT of kids have poorly managed issues related to mental health, because many parents are in denial or incompetent to make their children take their meds, the mental health issues tend to emerge unpredictably and are compounded by puberty, and because getting straight answers out of children as to why they do what they do is extremely difficult.

Other behavioral problems are just plain this particular kid being an asshole.

...

Now, NCLB never actually said this shouldn't happen. NCLB basically said all states had to establish a high-stakes testing regimen and set unachievable targets for how many students would be passing those tests by 2015 or so. Waivers followed.

The biggest problem with NCLB is that it sets high demands for graduation rates and demands that we do high stakes testing, but does NOT provide extra resources to do so. Thus, there is a strong incentive to create dumb tests, then focus nearly all your energy teaching kids who are JUST BARELY smart enough to pass with coaching. Meanwhile, the kids for whom a dumb test is easy tend to get neglected. And the kids who are extremely marginal absorb large amounts of teacher energy and are not placed appropriately in classes that teach to their current level of knowledge, so they never really learn anything other than the minimum set of factoids and procedures they cram so they can pass the test and scrape by with a D average.

Please note that I didn't say "has a disability." I said dumb. The problem is not special ed kids. And the problem is not that schools don't know how to teach special ed kids. The problem is the specific kids, most of whom are NOT special ed, who are in fact dumb. Stupid. Foolish. Other adjectives like 'lazy,' 'entitled,' 'insolent,' or 'unmotivated' also apply. None of these things are the same as "has a disability that justifies putting them in special education."

...
While noble in principle, students who are like Broom's co-worker would struggle to keep up with a class of "normal" children, but he would thrive if given special attention in a class that moves at his pace. With Bob, for example, he's doing great because everybody else is aware of his issue and helping him to overcome or get around it. But if he were simply treated like everybody else, he would quite likely fail.
I am 100% behind you on this.
Not asking because of anything you said, but this whole topic got me thinking. I've always felt that the No Child Left Behind concept was flawed and wanted to know what someone who has direct experience with it would think.
It is routine (indeed, legally mandated) that schools maintain special ed courses (typically intensive by certified SPED teachers, or 'co-taught' with two teachers per room) for anyone as disabled as Bob is implied to be.

No Child Left Behind did not alter that.

You may be thinking of 'mainstreaming,' which is simply the practice of integrating as many children with disabilities as possible into normal schools. This is actively a good idea because it encourages us to NOT stick all the weird kids in a 'loony bin' school that gets minimal funding and is chronically 'out of sight, out of mind.' It is also good for the development of the disabled children... as long as the disabilities are not behavior problems.

Students with behavior problems need special handling, regardless of whether their problem stems from being mentally ill, developmentally disabled, or just plain a jackass.
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

But, are they accomdating his handicap, treating him like any other person, in spite of his handicap, or both?
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Raw Shark »

Simon_Jester wrote:How pig-ignorant do you think I am?
Sorry, was having a weird day and misread.

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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Broomstick »

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:But, are they accomdating his handicap, treating him like any other person, in spite of his handicap, or both?
If you're referring to my co-worker "Bob" - for the most part his job does not require accommodation. He's physically fit, has no problem getting around, has no sensory deficits, and the repetitive, simple nature of the required tasks are actually an advantage in his case (people of normal intellect are prone to boredom and frustration with the job). He has problem solving abilities, he's just slower at figuring things out than average. He can read and perform arithmetic. He's also very patient with people who have physical disabilities or problems speaking. His customer service skills are, if anything, above average.

Most of the accommodation required centers around paperwork. For example, American workers are required to complete a form called a W-4 for tax purposes. The store administrative assistant looks over his shoulder as he does that (once a year), or if he has to file an expense report, or handle any work-connected paperwork so if he has comprehension problems he can ask her for help. I think she may also handle some interaction between the store and the social service agencies that provide oversight. Bob is the sort of person who could be easily victimized by scammers, and he attends workshops from time to time to help him learn various tasks (like cooking or money management). People of average intellect having trouble with their expense reports easily take up much more of her time. Other than that, though, he's at no disadvantage.

I do see why no one is eager to have him learn to drive - while I have no doubt he could master the mechanical skills I'm not sure he's up to split-second decision making in heavy traffic. I could see him using the forklift because it's low speed and Bob is one of the most safety-conscious people in the store, but I'm not sure regulations would allow it for someone not permitted to drive.

Because his speaking and social skills are average a lot of people don't at first realize he's impaired, you need an extended conversation to really be aware of that. I haven't seen anyone treating him badly at work or talking badly about him behind his back.
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Prannon »

I wanna say this happened last week.

I'm one of the more knowledgeable people on my team. I'm also one of the better communicators on my team. This results in two things:

1) Lots of people come to me for help.
2) I'm always inundated with things to do. I rarely have time to be interruptable.

COWORKER: "Hey, when you have a sec', I have something that I need your help with."
ME: "I never have sec's..." *immediate regret*
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Ace Pace »

Prannon wrote:I wanna say this happened last week.

I'm one of the more knowledgeable people on my team. I'm also one of the better communicators on my team. This results in two things:

1) Lots of people come to me for help.
2) I'm always inundated with things to do. I rarely have time to be interruptable.

COWORKER: "Hey, when you have a sec', I have something that I need your help with."
ME: "I never have sec's..." *immediate regret*
To quote one of my former bosses, "AcePace, you have to learn to say no, roughly, to people who just want your time"
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Raw Shark »

REALLY PREGNANT BARTENDER: This perv at the bar tonight offered me a hundred bucks if I'd let him suck on my titties.

YOUR DRIVER: Did you take it?

REALLY PREGNANT BARTENDER: Fuck yeah I did! My boyfriend ran off months ago, I would've let him do it for free.

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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

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STAR BOOB TATTOO: Can I sit up front?

YOUR DRIVER: You always do.

STAR BOOB TATTOO: Do I know you?

YOUR DRIVER: Uh, yeah. I've driven you home several times, and last time we hung out and smoked a bowl in your living room? I asked you to get coffee with me like a classy guy and you gave me a fake phone number?

STAR BOOB TATTOO: I did not! I would never do that.

YOUR DRIVER: Uh, yeah, it was so fake it had eleven digits. It kind of felt like a deliberate snub.

STAR BOOB TATTOO: Oh! Was that when I was living on Logan street? That was a really weird time in my life...

YOUR DRIVER: I bet. So are things less weird now?

STAR BOOB TATTOO: Mostly. I've got a new place, and my ex is completely out of my life now.

YOUR DRIVER: So can I try this again? Tell you what, I'll give you my number, and you can call me to go out tomorrow if you want. No pressure.

STAR BOOB TATTOO: Tell me the truth: Why are you so attracted to me?

YOUR DRIVER: Uh. Why wouldn't I be? I think you're funny, and pretty, and you seem like you're not a bullshitter, fake phone number notwithstanding...

STAR BOOB TATTOO: It's the tits, isn't it? I don't normally dress like a hooker, but I was at a bachelorette party and that was kind of the theme.

YOUR DRIVER: I'm not going to say that the tits are not part of it.

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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Elheru Aran »

Broomstick wrote: I do see why no one is eager to have him learn to drive - while I have no doubt he could master the mechanical skills I'm not sure he's up to split-second decision making in heavy traffic. I could see him using the forklift because it's low speed and Bob is one of the most safety-conscious people in the store, but I'm not sure regulations would allow it for someone not permitted to drive.
At my work, recently they got a bug up their nose about deaf people working the equipment. So now I can only drive after the lights go down. It's been waived on occasion when they really needed someone to get something from the overhead, and I could always drive in the receiving area since that's not a customer zone, but it was pretty damn annoying.
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Broomstick »

People have bizarre notions about deaf people. Blind ones, too. Really, anyone different than a conservative definition of normal.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Zaune »

I read a mildly heartwarming story about someone who was picked up by a deaf Uber driver and looked up the ASL for "thank you" and "goodbye" before they left, and the first comment under it was someone saying their first reaction would be to jump out of the car and run because no way could that be legal.

To that person's credit, they were very apologetic when I pointedly corrected them on that.
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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Raw Shark »

Zaune wrote:I read a mildly heartwarming story about someone who was picked up by a deaf Uber driver and looked up the ASL for "thank you" and "goodbye" before they left, and the first comment under it was someone saying their first reaction would be to jump out of the car and run because no way could that be legal.
Considering that Uber cheerfully employs convicted rapists, drunk drivers, and anybody else who has a working car, and gladly washes their hands of the consequences, I really wouldn't expect them to care about disabilities, up to and including blindness. Your safety? Fuck your safety! We're making money here!

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Re: MORE Conversations From the Professional Front Lines

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Elheru Aran wrote:
Broomstick wrote: I do see why no one is eager to have him learn to drive - while I have no doubt he could master the mechanical skills I'm not sure he's up to split-second decision making in heavy traffic. I could see him using the forklift because it's low speed and Bob is one of the most safety-conscious people in the store, but I'm not sure regulations would allow it for someone not permitted to drive.
At my work, recently they got a bug up their nose about deaf people working the equipment. So now I can only drive after the lights go down. It's been waived on occasion when they really needed someone to get something from the overhead, and I could always drive in the receiving area since that's not a customer zone, but it was pretty damn annoying.
You might be able to hit them with the ADA, over that. If you actually care, anyway. Being deaf does not prevent you from getting a driver's license anywhere in the country, so it's pretty clear the government doesn't consider a sense of hearing vital to operating a motor vehicle. That was not always the case, however. The Stand has a deaf character who never learned to drive because, at one time, the deaf were unable to get a driver's license.
Sig images are for people who aren't fucking lazy.
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