Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

[Terralthra]

Jervis says that the shield is impenetrable; but he's talking about a suit with output on the order of 3 GW (Iron Man; this refers to an earlier model but we've no reason to believe the output of the arc generators has increased massively). A single kiloton directed energy weapon is equal to just under fourteen hundred iron man chest blasts by that standard; and that's seriously lowballing the power unleashed by the ID4 chain-reaction weapons.

Nitpick, but we have direct evidence that the new arc reactor he builds when he gets home is much more powerful than the one he built in the cave. When he tries to power the Mk. 3 suit with the Mk. 1's arc reactor, it's desperately low on power.

[NecronLord]

I stand corrected; is there any information on how much more powerful the later ones are?

[Lost Soal]

What the ID4 aliens have in starship size and weapons technology, they lack in actual competence; from getting welcomed to Erf with a right cross to having their flagship taken out by a computer virus whipped up on a MacBook combined with a nuke they didn't even detect until it was too late, the ID4 aliens are the Keystone Kops of alien invasion scenarios.

Yes yes, the macbook. That'd be relevant if anyone involved had forty years to study their technology in advance and write an interface.

Unless theres a directors cut I haven't seen which retcons this the original version stated quite clearly that until the fleet turned up they hadn't been able to turn the fighter on, meaning the most they could copy is the circuitry. No power, no way to study the code meaning David cooked up the interface in a few hours or days at worst

[NecronLord]

Apparently there are.

But in the seven minutes of cut scenes included in the extended release Independence Day DVD, Goldblum is actually shown tinkering with his PowerBook inside the recovered craft from the Roswell crash site, mumbling something about how the spaceship was running off the same programming language he was able to decipher before (when he first uncovered their invasion plans and all that).

I do not have that DVD.

There are at the very least expanded media (books) that imply that it was operating in a reserve power mode for forty years, not completely shut down. That doesn't really seem reliably part of the continuity though.

[Axton]

Compared to whom? The Chitauri sensors seem to be 'Mk 1 eyeball.'

The Chitauri did nothing to stop a guy in a freaking red suit plated with actual gold flying a nuke on his back into their base; they're not paragons of Culture-esque response speed themselves.

Which says nothing except that the Chitauri and the ID4 aliens are equally, hilariously, inept.

But, y'know, otherwise good point. However, the Chitauri don't rely on a fixed weapon that requires the housing to move directly over the target, either. And the ID4 aliens' fighters, the only mobile weapons platform they have that can address mobile targets, can be taken down by FA/18s. Even S.H.I.E.L.D. Quinjets, which are notoriously destructible, display sufficient durability, versatility, and firepower in The Avengers to outperform an FA/18 in a close air support role, certainly.

And we're also unfairly excluding Stark mobile AI's like Ultron and Vision, which are MCU canon. If you can hack the ID4 aliens' systems with a MacBook, an AI orders of magnitude faster and more intelligent could conceivably simply tell the ID4 aliens' ships to self-destruct.

Which, I grant you, is a piece of hyperbole -- but no less ridiculous a piece of hyperbole than that which proposes that the ID4 aliens, who were bested by a bespectacled nerd with a nuke they could not detect, could simply shrug off a collection of individuals which includes a genius-level tactician, a supergenius-level engineer, a pair of soldiers with superhuman reflexes, a young man that can exceed the speed of sound on foot, a psionic, and a man who can metamorphose into a nigh-unstoppable engine of destruction.

[NecronLord]

Which says nothing except that the Chitauri and the ID4 aliens are equally, hilariously, inept.

But, y'know, otherwise good point. However, the Chitauri don't rely on a fixed weapon that requires the housing to move directly over the target, either.

No they went on a on an jolly, shooting up random cars in New York, while their invasion was dependant on a wholly unguarded portal generator that could be interfered with by a civilian norm (Selvig) - they didn't even think to post literally one guy with a gun. Their invasion strategy is not better.

And the ID4 aliens' fighters, the only mobile weapons platform they have that can address mobile targets, can be taken down by FA/18s. Even S.H.I.E.L.D. Quinjets, which are notoriously destructible, display sufficient durability, versatility, and firepower in The Avengers to outperform an FA/18 in a close air support role, certainly.

No they can be taken down by crashing. Until the shields drop no FA/18 so much as scratches their lovely lotus hull reliefs.

Nothing on a quinjet can harm them.

And we're also unfairly excluding Stark mobile AI's like Ultron and Vision, which are MCU canon. If you can hack the ID4 aliens' systems with a MacBook, an AI orders of magnitude faster and more intelligent could conceivably simply tell the ID4 aliens' ships to self-destruct.

With physical access, yes. To even begin to that they need to bring down an alien ship and get inside. While they're doing that what's the mothership doing to new york?

Which, I grant you, is a piece of hyperbole -- but no less ridiculous a piece of hyperbole than that which proposes that the ID4 aliens, who were bested by a bespectacled nerd with a nuke they could not detect, could simply shrug off a collection of individuals which includes a genius-level tactician, a supergenius-level engineer, a pair of soldiers with superhuman reflexes, a young man that can exceed the speed of sound on foot, a psionic, and a man who can metamorphose into a nigh-unstoppable engine of destruction.
"No one expects the Spanish intermission."

Those guys parade about in bright primary coloured costumes, the nerd in ID4 hid in a bunker.

What makes you think the Avengers are walking away long enough to try hacking? Nuke 'em.

Right off the bat that's Widow and Hawkeye dead. The others, who knows.

[Axton]

Somehow I don't see them staying on the ground when their target is in the air. Additionally, Vision alone could theoretically do in seconds, remotely, what took Jeff Goldblum's character minutes on site to accomplish.

The Mind Stone may not be a weapon, conventionally speaking, but it's not a 1990s era MacBook.

Even if Vision did have to go on site to do the same job, I will remind you that the ID4 aliens couldn't detect a pair of humans and a thermonuclear device inserted into their mothership until it was too late.

[Lost Soal]

Somehow I don't see them staying on the ground when their target is in the air. Additionally, Vision alone could theoretically do in seconds, remotely, what took Jeff Goldblum's character minutes on site to accomplish.

The Mind Stone may not be a weapon, conventionally speaking, but it's not a 1990s era MacBook.

Even if Vision did have to go on site to do the same job, I will remind you that the ID4 aliens couldn't detect a pair of humans and a thermonuclear device inserted into their mothership until it was too late.

What Vision?
Its Avengers. The first one. No Vision, No Ultron, No Wanda.

[NecronLord]

As mentioned, no vision.

I will remind you that the ID4 aliens couldn't detect a pair of humans and a thermonuclear device inserted into their mothership until it was too late.

You keep mentioning this.

What's the point? Have you been watching enough Battlestar Galactica to think that RADIOLOGICAL ALARM! is a thing in the real world?

Also jeez Lost Soul, sig long enough?

[Lost Soal]

Also jeez Lost Soul, sig long enough?

Haven't touched my sig in years, don't know where all the extra spaces came from

[JamesStaley]

Question. Wouldn't Thor's hammer be able to penetrate the ID4 Mothership's shields? Wouldn't the MIGHTY THOR, God of Thunder, come off as being WEAK if he couldn't bring down a thing like that?

[Borgholio]

Question. Wouldn't Thor's hammer be able to penetrate the ID4 Mothership's shields? Wouldn't the MIGHTY THOR, God of Thunder, come off as being WEAK if he couldn't bring down a thing like that?

Has Mjölnir ever been seen to penetrate energy shielding before?

[NecronLord]

Question. Wouldn't Thor's hammer be able to penetrate the ID4 Mothership's shields? Wouldn't the MIGHTY THOR, God of Thunder, come off as being WEAK if he couldn't bring down a thing like that?

A fucking nuclear weapon doesn't. Mjolnir didn't flatten towns.



Nukes appear in Avengers and Thor doesn't go 'Hah hah Mjolnir is mightier!'

[JamesStaley]

So in a conflict between Alien Hi-Tech and a Natural-Born GOD, the weapon(s) of the Gods lose??????!!!!

[Lord Revan]

MCU Thor isn't a god, Asgardians are highly powerful aliens with technology that seems magic even to modern humans but they're not capable of supernaturnal acts nor are they gods regardless what certain egotistical jotun might claim oh and said jotun was beaten (literally) by the Hulk who hasn't shown to have enough strength to level a city either.

[NecronLord]

So in a conflict between Alien Hi-Tech and a Natural-Born GOD, the weapon(s) of the Gods lose??????!!!!

You're on the wrong forum to think the term god carries any weight in debates.

[Axton]

Somehow I don't see them staying on the ground when their target is in the air. Additionally, Vision alone could theoretically do in seconds, remotely, what took Jeff Goldblum's character minutes on site to accomplish.

The Mind Stone may not be a weapon, conventionally speaking, but it's not a 1990s era MacBook.

Even if Vision did have to go on site to do the same job, I will remind you that the ID4 aliens couldn't detect a pair of humans and a thermonuclear device inserted into their mothership until it was too late.

What Vision?
Its Avengers. The first one. No Vision, No Ultron, No Wanda.

Okay, understood. So only the technologies and capabilities from the first Avengers. Which still vastly outclass the technologies and abilities demonstrated by the force that beat the ID4 aliens in that film.

[Axton]

As mentioned, no vision.

I will remind you that the ID4 aliens couldn't detect a pair of humans and a thermonuclear device inserted into their mothership until it was too late.

You keep mentioning this.

What's the point? Have you been watching enough Battlestar Galactica to think that RADIOLOGICAL ALARM! is a thing in the real world?

Have you been paying so little attention to the real world that you're asking that question in seriousness?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_detection

Yes. The ability to detect nukes is a real thing.

[Lord Revan]

the Wikipedia page so short that it's practically pointless, as for the links at least the one I checked seems to work on detecting decay byproducts, something a thermonuclear bomb might not have, first 2 isotypes of hydrogen are more or less stable and tritinium is too active to be of real use on bombs who warheads have to last longer then 25 years give or take a bit. only time a fusion device would trip a device like described in the link is when it was detonating and it's kind of too late then.

[Axton]

Question. Wouldn't Thor's hammer be able to penetrate the ID4 Mothership's shields? Wouldn't the MIGHTY THOR, God of Thunder, come off as being WEAK if he couldn't bring down a thing like that?

Has Mjölnir ever been seen to penetrate energy shielding before?

Have the ID4 aliens' weapons? If we're open to assume they can do it, why should we not be open to the same possibility from Mjolnir?

[Axton]

the Wikipedia page so short that it's practically pointless, as for the links at least the one I checked seems to work on detecting decay byproducts, something a thermonuclear bomb might not have, first 2 isotypes of hydrogen are more or less stable and tritinium is too active to be of real use on bombs who warheads have to last longer then 25 years give or take a bit. only time a fusion device would trip a device like described in the link is when it was detonating and it's kind of too late then.

Further information.

Yes, nuclear weapons are detectable in the real world.

The ID4 aliens are the 'bigger, bigger, bigger superweapon' fanboy's wank fuel. They had to be for the purposes of story mechanics, so that a decimated infrastructure could defeat them.

The problem for the ID4 aliens is that even a decimated infrastructure that still had the Avengers in it, has the Avengers in it. There's no contest involved. Swap out the original team that beat them in ID4 with the Avengers and you get the same result. Swap them in for the Chitauri in Avengers, you get the same result. Add them in and make it a three-way fight, things get dicey, but in the end it's the same result. The ID4 aliens and the Chitauri have no reason to regard each other as anything but competitors for the same prize, and while they're knocking each other around, they still have the Avengers to contend with, who indeed beat the Chitauri and would most likely beat the ID4 aliens more easily than the non-powered and non-enhanced humans beat the ID4 aliens.

If we play fair vis a vis not knowing whether or not exotic weapons can breach exotic shields, we have either:

1. Mjolnir can't bust a city destroyer's shields and a city destroyer can't bust the Tesseract, or

2. The city destroyer could bust the Tesseract but Mjolnir could bust the city destroyer's shields.

Anything else -- either way -- is simply playing favorites. There's no objective foundation provided in canon to conjecture in favor of one technology or the other.

[Lord Revan]

Summerize relevant points please, I don't have neither time nor the energy to read a multi page PDF file nor should I, you made the claim you have to back it up. Also from the quick look I did make again it speaks of fission materials like uranium or plutonium both which are naturally gamma-active and unstable, however is Hydrogen and Deuterium are naturally stable and there won't give any radiation signature to detect any then the metal casing of bomb or the paint used.


While some fusion bombs use a fission device to start the reactions IIRC not all do, so it's possible to have fusion device that doesn't have radiation signature until it detonates. However such devices tend to be expensive and not likely to fall into the hands of terrorist.

[Terralthra]

While some fusion bombs use a fission device to start the reactions IIRC not all do, so it's possible to have fusion device that doesn't have radiation signature until it detonates. However such devices tend to be expensive and not likely to fall into the hands of terrorist.

The DoE spent 40+ years trying to make a fusion weapon that didn't require a fission-bomb at the middle to kickstart the reaction, and to the best of my knowledge (I don't have top secret clearance), never succeeded, nor even really came close. The only things that create fusion without using fission to achieve the necessary energy density are things like the NIF, which isn't really a weapon, nor could it be easily converted to one.

The primary ways nuclear material are detected in the wild is by x-raying suspect packages or pointing a geiger counter at them (effectively). Fissile material is dense. Really dense. Shielding it so that it doesn't give off a tell-tale gamma signature just increases the volume of really dense material around it (e.g. lead or iron containment). A nuclear weapon inside a metal fighter isn't going to be easily detectable with any consistency, since the fighter is providing the shield for a large portion of the gamma rays and can't be easily x-rayed (because it's metal). The space shuttle was made of aluminium, which depending on thickness, might or might not serve as enough of a shield for gamma rays. A significant portion would probably penetrate the space shuttle hull, but some would be stopped or deflected. Also, remember the inverse-square law: you can't really effectively point a geiger counter (or other radiation detector) at a fighter from 100m away and get a useful result. To get the difference between background spectrographs and fissile material spectrographs that are in that PDF, detectors had to be put one meter away.

[Lord Revan]

While some fusion bombs use a fission device to start the reactions IIRC not all do, so it's possible to have fusion device that doesn't have radiation signature until it detonates. However such devices tend to be expensive and not likely to fall into the hands of terrorist.

The DoE spent 40+ years trying to make a fusion weapon that didn't require a fission-bomb at the middle to kickstart the reaction, and to the best of my knowledge (I don't have top secret clearance), never succeeded, nor even really came close. The only things that create fusion without using fission to achieve the necessary energy density are things like the NIF, which isn't really a weapon, nor could it be easily converted to one.

The primary ways nuclear material are detected in the wild is by x-raying suspect packages or pointing a geiger counter at them (effectively). Fissile material is dense. Really dense. Shielding it so that it doesn't give off a tell-tale gamma signature just increases the volume of really dense material around it (e.g. lead or iron containment). A nuclear weapon inside a metal fighter isn't going to be easily detectable with any consistency, since the fighter is providing the shield for a large portion of the gamma rays and can't be easily x-rayed (because it's metal). The space shuttle was made of aluminium, which depending on thickness, might or might not serve as enough of a shield for gamma rays. A significant portion would probably penetrate the space shuttle hull, but some would be stopped or deflected. Also, remember the inverse-square law: you can't really effectively point a geiger counter (or other radiation detector) at a fighter from 100m away and get a useful result. To get the difference between background spectrographs and fissile material spectrographs that are in that PDF, detectors had to be put one meter away.

I'll bow down to your superior knowledge on this matter, but am I correct in assuming that you're saying that not detecting a small nuke inside what looks like a metal tube isn't that big of a weakness as it's implied to be?

[Terralthra]

I'll bow down to your superior knowledge on this matter, but am I correct in assuming that you're saying that not detecting a small nuke inside what looks like a metal tube isn't that big of a weakness as it's implied to be?

Ehhhhh. I don't know what that tube was made of, nor how thick it was. The thing that probably explains more than anything else is psychology. Why point a geiger counter at a returning fighter? Even if you suspect it's been taken over (which no one appeared to, as presumably fighters come and go regularly from the mothership), why would *nuke* be your first thought? The first thought of the alien investigating was "who is flying that ship?", which seems like a reasonable first step. How long passed between them hiding behind the chairs and then getting back in the chairs to fire the missile? Don't know, there were cuts and other scenes shown. Why didn't some alien come to board it? Don't know. Presumably not that long to the first question, explaining the second. Still, why would you point a geiger counter at it? (and that's what you'd have to do, from not *too* far away; even if it was in just a metal tube, the weapon itself would have some shielding incorporated into the structure to keep it from irradiating handlers and nearby equipment too much).