Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

[Elheru Aran]

You also seem to be missing the point that the 'good guys' in this situation both have their hands full with *another* invader and don't have any information whatsoever about the ID4 aliens to draw upon. The Avengers only really won their fight because they got *lucky*-- they had to get up to the top of Stark Tower and turn off the portal generator, and then they'd still have lost if Stark hadn't been able to redirect the nuke up into the portal, and escape, just before it closed.

They didn't win just because they were bad-ass. They won because they managed to get lucky and avert destruction. There's much less guarantee of that with ID4 because there's far fewer ways for them to personally intervene.

[Khaat]

Which is stacking the deck. It's like saying, "Okay, who would win in a fight between Muhammed Ali and Mike Tyson if Muhammed Ali wins?"

Nope. No deck stacking.

That's exactly what you have been doing for the past two pages, Axton: "Nerdy civilians and a drunk did it, so the Avengers will sweep them!" by disregarding the actual scenario outlined in the original post:

In this scenario the alien mother ship from Independence Day comes to the earth of the Marvel Cinematic Universe during the events of The Avengers (with the city destroyer arriving near New York when Loki opens up his portal) with the same intentions that they had in ID4.

What happens?

This is not the ID4 movie PLUS Avengers, this is The Avengers, circa "Battle of New York", and ID4 aliens showing up. The unique "deck stacking" (and ass-pull) of the original ID4 movie do not apply here. (Loki and) the Avengers have to do it themselves.

Show your work. How do you suggest the Avengers combat the aliens?

[Terralthra]

So... wait. If I do change it in response to evidence, that's bad? Wouldn't it be worse if I don't adjust my position in response to evidence? You had a point, are you now saying I'm not supposed to acknowledge that point and moderate my stance accordingly?

My point is that you're supposed to acknowledge when your argument has been proven wrong, not pretend you made a much narrower argument.

So okay, yes, sometimes the "bad guys" come out on top.

It didn't happen in ID4. The ID4 aliens lost. Hilariously.

They'd lose again, because in the scenario presented, they're fighting more powerful "good guys."

Do the Avengers have a fighter craft that has been ensconced at a military R&D base for decades that they can use to infiltrate the mothership, infect it with a virus, shut down the shields on all of the daughterships and fighters, then nuke the mothership from the inside? If not, you need to have an alternative plan that takes advantage of the weaknesses (failure to verify the identity of the pilot of one of their own ships, for example) in order to show that the more powerful good guys are more powerful along relevant axes.

[Borgholio]

Considering that S.H.I.E.L.D. is involved with artifacts of alien origin including the Tesseract, it seems highly unlikely that the organization would be out of the loop on a crashed alien vehicle from the 1940s.

I covered that scenario in the very next line of my reply.

So an organization that's been actively studying an alien artifact recovered in the 1940s (the Tesseract) would just... not bother with another one (the ID4 fighter)?

No. I don't see that happening, and I doubt you see that happening, either.

I never said that. Please don't put words in my mouth. In the original scenario, the US Government knew full well about the aliens and were studying the tech as best they could, they just kept it secret because (quoting directly from the movie), "We had no way of knowing our fighters would that ineffective against their attackers.". I can see SHIELD doing the exactly the same thing. Why would SHIELD reveal that they had a crashed alien ship unless they absolutely needed to? It makes perfect sense that they would not say anything unless it was demonstrated that the Avengers were unable to do anything and they had to come up with a Plan B in a hurry.

In the "Plan B" scenario, I can see Stark fulfilling the role of Levinson (assuming he survives the destruction of New York...which could very well be possible as long as he isn't directly under the beam weapon when it goes off).

[Axton]

No, trust me, you want to shave them first. You don't want customers finding cat fur in their The point is that it's still stacking the deck. ID4 doesn't open with the city destroyers just -- BLOP! -- appearing over cities out of nowhere. No stacking the deck. The mothership has to approach, as it had to approach in ID4. It has to actually deploy its city destroyers, as it had to do in ID4. They have to actually move into position, as they had to do in ID4.

You're stacking the deck in their favor by granting them an element of surprise they did not possess.

[Tribble]

No, trust me, you want to shave them first. You don't want customers finding cat fur in their The point is that it's still stacking the deck. ID4 doesn't open with the city destroyers just -- BLOP! -- appearing over cities out of nowhere. No stacking the deck. The mothership has to approach, as it had to approach in ID4. It has to actually deploy its city destroyers, as it had to do in ID4. They have to actually move into position, as they had to do in ID4.

You're stacking the deck in their favor by granting them an element of surprise they did not possess.

All good arguments, but don't leave us in suspense; where will we find cat fur if they are not shaved first?!?!

[Axton]

*facepalm* God damn it. I must have fumbled and hit ctrl+V. Just... never mind that.

[Esquire]

Even granting that SHIELD has access to a crashed alien fighter, that fighter is locked up in a base somewhere, unpowered (or on reserve power) and unavailable to our heroes in New York. It has no bearing on the initial engagements any more than the one in the movie did. The Avengers, assuming they're in New York - which they are by the OP and would have to be to deal with the Chitauri anyway - are going to get hit with a city-killer beam. I have no interest in debating what effect that would have on, say, Thor; my point is that you've yet to say anything of substance. Vague appeals to narrative convention don't carry much weight, engage with the question as posed or provide a better one with a proper justification behind it.

[Axton]

I'll get to that presently. Don't want you to think I'm swanning off, but I'm dealing with an associate who's having some ethical issues in regard to his restaurant.

[NecronLord]

This is a novel way of escaping an online debate. Not seen that before. I'll grant you that.

[Axton]

I wasn't escaping. The mentioned issue needed addressing, and then there was that whole, "I'm a mammal" issue. Eating, sleeping, urinating, defecating. Such a hassle.

Anyway, unless the OP posits that the City Destroyer simply pops into existence over the target without warning, it actually has to arrive in the conventional way, which means they have time to analyze and prepare for it.

Because allowing it to appear instantaneously provides the ID4 aliens with an ability they don't canonically possess.

[NecronLord]

Yep. They have about a day before the aliens attack. But they still don't have the fighter.

[Axton]

I still don't see why they wouldn't. This is a species that consumes the natural resources of planets to sustain itself. Let's assume they don't just let their species' teenagers go joyriding in their fighter craft. So what's the purpose of sending the things out before there's an invasion? Presumably, it's to find planets worth invading.

So no crashed fighter? No City Destroyer shows up. They're a package deal. (Unless, of course, you can think of a more plausible reason for the fighter showing up in 1947 than reconnaissance.)

Finally, rewatch what the Levinson character does once they get into the mothership. He connects to it via his laptop... wirelessly.

Stark, by himself, could do exactly the same thing using J.A.R.V.I.S. to compile the virus and send it to the mothership wirelessly. Or, still more easily, directly to the City Destroyer. As has been mentioned, we know from watching it happen in Avengers that J.A.R.V.I.S. can identify critical targets on alien technology on the fly. So given two days warning, it's more than plausible that Stark -- again, by himself -- would find the countdown signal and devise a way to hijack it remotely, then simply hammer at the unshielded weapons array; and he's got some pretty serious hammers to work with. As has also been demonstrated, even earlier than Avengers, the Iron Man Mk II armor packed a missile the size of a lawn dart that busted a tank.

[Borgholio]

Finally, rewatch what the Levinson character does once they get into the mothership. He connects to it via his laptop... wirelessly.

Actually he doesn't. Had that been true, they could have hacked the signal from on Earth. They specifically mention they need to dock with the mothership, presumably because the fighter will link up with the mothership's network and allow a point of entry for the virus. The two possibilities are that either the production crew forgot to add wires to the prop laptop (I think this is the most likely explanation), or the laptop is connected wirelessly to an access point they installed in the fighter which is then hard-wired into the fighter's comm system.

[Axton]

Okay, point conceded -- a little research into the exact model shown in the film identifies it as a PowerBook 5300 -- a model that didn't have wireless networking capability.

This still raises the question of why on-site upload of the virus was strictly necessary; the aliens use wireless communication themselves between the mothership and the city destroyers -- even the dialogue from the film indicates this:

"Are you telling us you can send out a signal that will disable all their shields?"
"That's right, just like they used our satellites against us, we can use their own signal against them."

But the signal is wireless. Presumably, the 1996-era laptop's lack of wireless technology is the only reason they needed to connect it to the alien fighter's comm system. That still doesn't explain why they needed to take the alien fighter to the mothership, however.

Now, we could always assume from the character's dialogue that on-site upload is, in fact, the only way to do it. Likewise, we could assume from J.A.R.V.I.S.'s dialogue that the energy barrier protecting the Tesseract is, in fact, absolutely unbreachable. I remember that idea getting a somewhat chilly reception.

[Borgholio]

Yes it does seem to be a contradiction that he says he can send out a signal but then almost immediately states that they need to physically hardwire with the mothership. My feeling is that the signal is one-way. That is, you can't broadcast the virus from the fighter to the rest of the fleet, you need to implant it directly in the mothership where it will be downloaded to the other ships from there. That's exactly what he says, in fact. So it's most likely that the signal is one-way.

[Khaat]

[nitpick]The script mentions the fighter crashed in the 50's, actually: so not the "Roswell Incident".[/nitpick]

It would possible, if not likely, that Howard Stark tore the alien ship apart for SHIELD. And he kept his secrets pretty damned well, BTW. The more we learn of the minds behind SHIELD (Stark, Pym, Zola), it's a wonder anything actually got done (though it does explain why we don't have "supers" on every street corner in the MCU.) If he was like Tony, if he didn't grok it right away, Howard had other projects that needed his attention (or he would have cracked the Tesseract in 1940-something.) Still, the crashed ship didn't get introduced to the protagonists of ID4 until a day after NY (and 35+ other cities) was a skidmark. And they had the POTUS, the Avengers don't.

And the point of reaching the mother ship was to disseminate the virus through the entire fleet from the top down, oh, and nuke the mother ship from the inside! Could Tony send a wireless signal virus? Has he? He hacked control of the displays in the Congressional hearing (I wonder who their hardware contractor was, or if he thought about doing this in advance at all?) He had Jarvis chew on the SHIELD helicarrier's database with a hard connection. Maybe he could send a wireless signal to the aliens, but then what? The city-ships have already rolled over the industry of the world for a day+, now, with much the same effect as before PLUS now the mother ship is still there and the aliens are aware of the security flaw. The city ships were no longer operating on a synchronized clock, so how many city ships can Tony reach to zap them, with their pants down and tackle hanging out, in the window of time given? I'm thinking... one. Ooh! But maybe the rest of the Avengers (well, the three total that survive NY's city ship blast) take one each! That only leaves 33 city ships!

"Well, the protagonists in ID4 coordinated the remaining world militaries to attack too, so they'd do that!" Would they? Could they? This is MCU, here: they give "I'm-obsessed-with-Banner-after-repeated-failures-to-bring-him-in" Ross the lead on the Sokovia Accords; brilliant leadership is not in the picture. And Fury is on the outs with the SHIELD Security Council at the moment.

it's more than plausible that Stark -- again, by himself -- would find the countdown signal and devise a way to hijack it remotely, then simply hammer at the unshielded weapons array; and he's got some pretty serious hammers to work with.

The only thing you've said that actually shows your work! Congratulation! But Stark doesn't have 2 days warning: he's busy with Loki in Germany (and Thor, and Captain America, and brainwashed Barton & troopers on the way home) while the mother ship settles in, and the city ship is moving over NY while the portal opens (it's in the OP, "stacking the deck".) Also presuming: the proposed "wireless connection" to the mother ship isn't secured better than a hardware connection to a "friendly" fighter in the hangar of the mother ship.

Considering the response from the SHIELD Security Council was "nuke NY!", I see it ending poorly for Our Heroes(tm), as they can't stop the weapons launched at all 36 city ships (which have no effect on those ships.) "What do you mean, 'they aren't with Loki'?"

One problem at a time: the Avengers deal with the chitauri invasion. Stark's new armor is trashed, everyone is alive (for now), and 35 other cities around the world have just been nuked by the SHIELD Security Council. The alien city ships do nothing (other than relocate 35 ships), with no response to efforts to communicate. Thor doesn't recognize the alien ships.

Oh, and the Avengers skip "shawarma, after." (Well, with DC, LA, Chicago, Moscow, St. Petersburg, London, Paris, etc., etc., already nuked, noone's in the mood.)

Hours later, the city ships will open fire on NY and 35 secondary target cities. Go, Tony!

[NecronLord]

I still don't see why they wouldn't. This is a species that consumes the natural resources of planets to sustain itself. Let's assume they don't just let their species' teenagers go joyriding in their fighter craft. So what's the purpose of sending the things out before there's an invasion? Presumably, it's to find planets worth invading.

So no crashed fighter? No City Destroyer shows up. They're a package deal. (Unless, of course, you can think of a more plausible reason for the fighter showing up in 1947 than reconnaissance.)

Original Poster's fiat, get over it.

Finally, rewatch what the Levinson character does once they get into the mothership. He connects to it via his laptop... wirelessly.

Stark, by himself, could do exactly the same thing using J.A.R.V.I.S. to compile the virus and send it to the mothership wirelessly. Or, still more easily, directly to the City Destroyer. As has been mentioned, we know from watching it happen in Avengers that J.A.R.V.I.S. can identify critical targets on alien technology on the fly. So given two days warning, it's more than plausible that Stark -- again, by himself -- would find the countdown signal and devise a way to hijack it remotely, then simply hammer at the unshielded weapons array;

If you want to take the ID4 novel (you might not) as evidence, it clarifies that the F-18 missiles alone didn't do that. I can supply more info.

The novel described the beam (Which notably, powers up before firing and doesn't damage Russel's fighter at all when he flies into it) as a containment field for a quantity of anti-matter; it wasn't the explosive on the F-18 that set off the chain reaction, it was the fighter hitting the antimatter. Stark would need to put something in the beam, which entails being perilously close to a massive explosion.

And, no, not wireless.

[Axton]

Someone (I believe it was you) a bit upthread asked how and why the OP scenario ought to be modified. I believe I've done that. Taking the captured fighter that ought logically to be available out of the picture is simply removing a relevant weakness from one side for the sake of convenience. If we're talking about the ID4 aliens vs the Avengers + Loki, we're talking about all relevant strengths and all relevant weaknesses. The captured fighter is a relevant weakness (considering it was a weakness pivotal to the resolution of the source material these antagonists originate from) which ought rightly to be included if we're giving the scenario an honest go.

[NecronLord]

Someone (I believe it was you) a bit upthread asked how and why the OP scenario ought to be modified. I believe I've done that. Taking the captured fighter that ought logically to be available out of the picture is simply removing a relevant weakness from one side for the sake of convenience. If we're talking about the ID4 aliens vs the Avengers + Loki, we're talking about all relevant strengths and all relevant weaknesses. The captured fighter is a relevant weakness (considering it was a weakness pivotal to the resolution of the source material these antagonists originate from) which ought rightly to be included if we're giving the scenario an honest go.

Again, no.

We don't give anyone who goes against the Death Star, detailed knowledge of the Death Star plans as per the movie. That's not how it works.

This isn't can you think up a scenario where the Avengers win. We can all do that. Easypeasy.

It's using standard observed tactics and technology who would win?

They don't get the initial advantage unless Zor says so.


And frankly, if SHIELD had the exact advantages in terms of a decades-studied alien craft with the right codes, that the ID4 cast did, it'd be 7 alpha 11 flying the thing, and someone like Chloe Bennet doing the hacking.

The scenario is clearly stated. MCU world. ID4 aliens show up by act of OP fiat.

[Axton]

[nitpick]The script mentions the fighter crashed in the 50's, actually: so not the "Roswell Incident".[/nitpick]

From said script:

Suddenly Moishe is on his feet, interrupting.

MOISHE
Don't tell him to shut up! You'd
all be dead, were it not for my
David. You didn't do anything to
prevent this!

As everyone is about to besiege Moishe, the President tries to
calm him down.

PRESIDENT
Sir, there wasn't much more we
could have done. We were totally
unprepared for this.

MOISHE
Don't give me unprepared! Since
nineteen fifty whatever you guys
have had that space ship, the
thing you found in New Mexico.

DAVID
(embarrassed)
Dad, please...

MOISHE
What was it, Roswell? You had the
space ship, the bodies, everything
locked up in a bunker, the what is
it, Area fifty one. That's it!
Area fifty one. You knew and you
didn't do nothing!

For the first time in along time, President Whitmore smiles.

PRESIDENT
Regardless of what the tabloids
have said, there were never any
space crafts recovered by the
government. Take my word for it,
there is no Area 51 and no
recovered space ship.

Chief of Staff Nimziki suddenly clears his throat.

NIMZIKI
Uh, excuse me, Mr. President, but
that's not entirely accurate.

Seems to be a pretty solid implication that it's the Roswell crash the film is referencing.

But I'll offer you a deal: No captured scout, and we likewise stick with the OP's scenario which involves only a City Destroyer -- singular, not plural.

[Axton]

Someone (I believe it was you) a bit upthread asked how and why the OP scenario ought to be modified. I believe I've done that. Taking the captured fighter that ought logically to be available out of the picture is simply removing a relevant weakness from one side for the sake of convenience. If we're talking about the ID4 aliens vs the Avengers + Loki, we're talking about all relevant strengths and all relevant weaknesses. The captured fighter is a relevant weakness (considering it was a weakness pivotal to the resolution of the source material these antagonists originate from) which ought rightly to be included if we're giving the scenario an honest go.

Again, no.

We don't give anyone who goes against the Death Star, detailed knowledge of the Death Star plans as per the movie. That's not how it works.

Removing the thermal exhaust port from the scenario to shield the Death Star isn't how it works, either.

This isn't can you think up a scenario where the Avengers win. We can all do that. Easypeasy.

It's using standard observed tactics and technology who would win?

Okay, let's have your take on how it plays out.

[Crazedwraith]

But I'll offer you a deal: No captured scout, and we likewise stick with the OP's scenario which involves only a City Destroyer -- singular, not plural.

OP's scenario explicitly mentions the mothership and the city destroyer over NY. The implication being all the city destroyers are there.

In the DS analogy not giving the Avengers the fighter is not removing the exhaust port. It is more like not giving Cap force powers so he can make the shot.

[Axton]

So all of their advantages, none of their deficits? I'm not sure what the point of proposing the scenario is in that case. Might as well ask, "Who would win if the ID4 aliens win?"

[Axton]

In the DS analogy not giving the Avengers the fighter is not removing the exhaust port. It is more like not giving Cap force powers so he can make the shot.

The fighter is one of the ID4 aliens' weaknesses, the other major one being their complete lack of comms security and cybersecurity. So, yes, removing one of their key weaknesses arbitrarily tilts the equation in their favor, not to mention removing any logic for their arrival. Yes, I know. They get there 'by fiat'. But as I said, if we're going to start magicking the scenario, there's no reason to stop magicking it.

Observed tactics and technology: We have observed that the ID4 aliens scout their targets before they commit their mothership to traveling to those targets. That's one of their observed tactics. It ought to be taken into account.