Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

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Crazedwraith
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Crazedwraith »

Axton wrote:So all of their advantages, none of their deficits? I'm not sure what the point of proposing the scenario is in that case. Might as well ask, "Who would win if the ID4 aliens win?"
That's the second time you've conceded the Avengers would lose the scenario. Why are you still Arguing?

And Why do you think that 'The Avengers win because they're the Avengers' is a more thriling scenario?
Axton wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:In the DS analogy not giving the Avengers the fighter is not removing the exhaust port. It is more like not giving Cap force powers so he can make the shot.
The fighter is one of the ID4 aliens' weaknesses, the other major one being their complete lack of comms security and cybersecurity. So, yes, removing one of their key weaknesses arbitrarily tilts the equation in their favor, not to mention removing any logic for their arrival. Yes, I know. They get there 'by fiat'. But as I said, if we're going to start magicking the scenario, there's no reason to stop magicking it.
Well done! You've identified their <I>actual weakness</i> that you can insert a virus. That's not the fighter ship.
Observed tactics and technology: We have observed that the ID4 aliens scout their targets before they commit their mothership to traveling to those targets. That's one of their observed tactics. It ought to be taken into account.
They've observed. Then they've taken sent the City ships in. I'm assuming they go straight to kill beam in the scenario to stop the Chitauri stealing their kill.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Axton »

Crazedwraith wrote:
Axton wrote:So all of their advantages, none of their deficits? I'm not sure what the point of proposing the scenario is in that case. Might as well ask, "Who would win if the ID4 aliens win?"
That's the second time you've conceded the Avengers would lose the scenario. Why are you still Arguing?

And Why do you think that 'The Avengers win because they're the Avengers' is a more thriling scenario?
Axton wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:In the DS analogy not giving the Avengers the fighter is not removing the exhaust port. It is more like not giving Cap force powers so he can make the shot.
The fighter is one of the ID4 aliens' weaknesses, the other major one being their complete lack of comms security and cybersecurity. So, yes, removing one of their key weaknesses arbitrarily tilts the equation in their favor, not to mention removing any logic for their arrival. Yes, I know. They get there 'by fiat'. But as I said, if we're going to start magicking the scenario, there's no reason to stop magicking it.
Well done! You've identified their <I>actual weakness</i> that you can insert a virus. That's not the fighter ship.
Are you now agreeing that the fighter is superfluous to introducing a virus into the mother ship?
Observed tactics and technology: We have observed that the ID4 aliens scout their targets before they commit their mothership to traveling to those targets. That's one of their observed tactics. It ought to be taken into account.
They've observed.
When, and with what? Surely not with the scoutship you're so anxious to arbitrarily exclude?
Then they've taken sent the City ships in. I'm assuming they go straight to kill beam in the scenario to stop the Chitauri stealing their kill.
That's a very generous assumption on your part. Shall we give them a few more gifts? Hyperdrive? Invulnerability? An inexhaustible supply of whatever their equivalent of nachos supreme might be? You're like the Santa Claus they never had.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Axton »

I'll be back after 1700. As entertaining as this is, work isn't going to do itself.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Crazedwraith »

Axton wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Axton wrote:So all of their advantages, none of their deficits? I'm not sure what the point of proposing the scenario is in that case. Might as well ask, "Who would win if the ID4 aliens win?"
That's the second time you've conceded the Avengers would lose the scenario. Why are you still Arguing?

And Why do you think that 'The Avengers win because they're the Avengers' is a more thriling scenario?
Axton wrote:
The fighter is one of the ID4 aliens' weaknesses, the other major one being their complete lack of comms security and cybersecurity. So, yes, removing one of their key weaknesses arbitrarily tilts the equation in their favor, not to mention removing any logic for their arrival. Yes, I know. They get there 'by fiat'. But as I said, if we're going to start magicking the scenario, there's no reason to stop magicking it.
Well done! You've identified their <I>actual weakness</i> that you can insert a virus. That's not the fighter ship.
Are you now agreeing that the fighter is superfluous to introducing a virus into the mother ship?
I am not. The fighter is simply a piece of equipment that's not in the avengers line up.

It's like saying X-Men vs the Death Star and then giving the X-Men, a X-Wing and proton torpedoes to make the shot with.

Also you snipped out the part of the post. Where I point out you already conceded the issue and asked why assuming the Avengers win by fiat was any better than a scenario tilted in favour of the ID4 aliens.
Observed tactics and technology: We have observed that the ID4 aliens scout their targets before they commit their mothership to traveling to those targets. That's one of their observed tactics. It ought to be taken into account.
They've observed.
When, and with what? Surely not with the scoutship you're so anxious to arbitrarily exclude?
With the mothership in orbit. with the city ships slowly moving into position.
Then they've taken sent the City ships in. I'm assuming they go straight to kill beam in the scenario to stop the Chitauri stealing their kill.
That's a very generous assumption on your part. Shall we give them a few more gifts? Hyperdrive? Invulnerability? An inexhaustible supply of whatever their equivalent of nachos supreme might be? You're like the Santa Claus they never had.
You mean you think the aliens will just sit there and do nothing while someone else conquers the planet? It's not a gift, it's an assumption they will behave in their own best interests.

Did the film ever establish why the countdown? And why the aliens were event there aside 'kill all humans'?
I'll be back after 1700. As entertaining as this is, work isn't going to do itself.
The internet goes all over the world, idiot. Might want to include a time zone there. It's 1840 already where I am.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Khaat »

Axton wrote:
Khaat wrote:[nitpick]The script mentions the fighter crashed in the 50's, actually: so not the "Roswell Incident".[/nitpick]
MOISHE
What was it, Roswell? You had the
space ship, the bodies, everything
locked up in a bunker, the what is
it, Area fifty one. That's it!
Area fifty one. You knew and you
didn't do nothing!

[edited out the bit that added nothing to the claim]

Seems to be a pretty solid implication that it's the Roswell crash the film is referencing.

But I'll offer you a deal: No captured scout, and we likewise stick with the OP's scenario which involves only a City Destroyer -- singular, not plural.
Actually, David's dad is the one who names Roswell. Elsewhere in the script we get this:
THE ALIEN ATTACKER

Just like the one that chased Steve. The entourage stares in
horror and wonder. We can SEE the patch-work repairs they've
made on the ship over the years.

OKUN
She's a beaut, ain't she?

Moishe leans close to David and Constance.

MOISHE
(smug)
Never any space ships recovered by
the government, huh?

PRESIDENT
We've had this for forty years and
you don't know anything about
them?

OKUN
Hell no, we know tons about them.
The nearest stuff has only
happened in the last few days.

"Forty years" places the ship from the 50's (1996-40 = 1956). If they'd said fifty years, that would fit Roswell (1947).

But by your re-fit (and it is a re-fit) of the scenario, (no scout/fighter), one city ship -> [no carrier signal to synchronize (or detect!) the attack, no wifi (or "friendly" hardport) exploit], city ship shields, city-destroying beam weapon, shielded alien fighters, mother ship in orbit (or did the city ship come on its own, because the mother ship wasn't mentioned in the OP or your refit, specifically?): go!

Does the city ship just open fire once in position? It isn't synchronizing with others anymore; why wait? Empire State Building (350 5th Avenue), NYC, NY, goodbye! Anyone been able to figure the Stark Tower's position? I love the Internet: 200 Park Avenue (Park Avenue & 42nd), a mere 8 blocks away? Well under the 15 km diameter ship, anyway. Sure, Tony takes a shot with his micro-missile on the deployed alien weapon before it fires! Is there a reason to believe the weapon isn't shielded?

Actually, there is the suggestion that the city ship's weapon and the ship's shield create the expanding/continuing "wall weapon" effect, otherwise, the weapon should create a deep hole directly under the ship, not expand to the limits of the ship's (shield) perimeter before dispersing (as seen on TV!) The weapon also doesn't destroy itself, so there is reasonable grounds to presume it is shielded.

*Plink!*
*Man of Steel-level devastation of ground zero (15km in diameter), including chitauri through the portal by that point*
*dancing beam of the portal machine, as Stark Tower blows out sideways under it, maybe "she" chooses to land upright*
*alien city ship moves on*

Let's drop lightning on it, Thor! Lightning runs 30k Kelvin, for tiny sparks of time. Is there reason to think that will pierce the alien shields? The arrival of the city ship seemed to throw out a bunch of heat to no ill effect (to the ship.) Wrecked an AWACS in the movie, though (killed it WITH FIRE!) Seems the aliens have amazing heat-management systems. I'm not practiced to calculate the 15km diameter ship incurring sufficient friction heat to fireball the AWACS some distance from the (shielded) hull, but I think (please correct me if I'm off here), the total energy (time/area/temp) of the atmospheric entry exceeds the total energy of a lightning strike (even Thor's manly extended, repeating strikes. Oh, my knees are weak!) Any reason to think "but it's focused on a single point!" makes a difference to energy and kinetic shielding? Do we see the ID4 shields "pierced"? 20mm cannon of the F-18s? Air-to-air missiles? No?
Moving on.

Let's drop a Hulk on it! (Well gloss over "who" and "how" he's picked up: we haven't seen MCU Hulk jump like in the comics)
*Sput*
*Squeegee noise as Hulk slides off* (yes, he punches at it on the way across and off, but, it's shielded. IMPOTENT RAGE MONSTER!)
Hmm, no joy there.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Khaat »

Crazedwraith wrote:Did the film ever establish why the countdown? And why the aliens were event there aside 'kill all humans'?
The timer was to synchronize the first shot by the city-ships. Why? To introduce the exploit used in the 3rd Act. To build dramatic tension. And because they don't have clocks(?).

Aliens want our planet's natural resources. Getting the vermin cleared off first is fun for them(?).
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Axton »

Crazedwraith wrote:
Are you now agreeing that the fighter is superfluous to introducing a virus into the mother ship?
I am not. The fighter is simply a piece of equipment that's not in the avengers line up.

It's like saying X-Men vs the Death Star and then giving the X-Men, a X-Wing and proton torpedoes to make the shot with.
Shirley, you can't be Sirius. So on the one hand, you're saying that it is a relevant weakness; on the other, you're excusing it from the scenario.

In other words, just as I have said before, you're stacking the deck. Your Achilles has no heel; therefore: Scenario invalidated.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Crazedwraith »

Axton wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Are you now agreeing that the fighter is superfluous to introducing a virus into the mother ship?
I am not. The fighter is simply a piece of equipment that's not in the avengers line up.

It's like saying X-Men vs the Death Star and then giving the X-Men, a X-Wing and proton torpedoes to make the shot with.
Shirley, you can't be Sirius. So on the one hand, you're saying that it is a relevant weakness; on the other, you're excusing it from the scenario.

In other words, just as I have said before, you're stacking the deck. Your Achilles has no heel; therefore: Scenario invalidated.
Thrice I say and done. You agree the Avengers lose the scenario.

Why do you think the Avengers win the scenario by fiat is any more interesting or less biased?
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Axton »

Crazedwraith wrote:
Axton wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
I am not. The fighter is simply a piece of equipment that's not in the avengers line up.

It's like saying X-Men vs the Death Star and then giving the X-Men, a X-Wing and proton torpedoes to make the shot with.
Shirley, you can't be Sirius. So on the one hand, you're saying that it is a relevant weakness; on the other, you're excusing it from the scenario.

In other words, just as I have said before, you're stacking the deck. Your Achilles has no heel; therefore: Scenario invalidated.
Thrice I say and done. You agree the Avengers lose the scenario.

Why do you think the Avengers win the scenario by fiat is any more interesting or less biased?
I've cited observed tactics and technology that give them a path to victory, rather than taking anything by fiat. We know from observation that the ID4 aliens communications technology is among their least developed, being roughly on par with human comms technology circa 1996, while their cybersecurity is nonexistent.

We know they scout planets as a requisite of target selection, because the source material demonstrates that one of those scouts crashed. We know, from observation, that the on-board sensors and AI of the Iron Man armor enables Stark to analyze alien technology and find its weak spots, on the fly. We also know that he has at some point in his past hacked the Pentagon on a dare (although he has plenty of character flaws, lying has yet to be demonstrated as being one of them.)

So who's playing with fiat? The guy who has pointed out one faction's observed technological and strategic deficiencies? Or the guy who's giving that faction advantages it didn't demonstrate while excluding weaknesses it did demonstrate?

Also bear in mind that if we give the ID4 faction the proper travel time, that puts them at the head of the queue both with the Avengers and with Loki and his +1s. The assumption for a while has been that it's the Avengers vs Loki + Chitauri / ID4. It could just as easily be (and this is implied by the thread title as well as the OP) The Avengers / Loki + Chitauri vs ID4.

But again, I'm not the one who's been beefing up ID4 by fiat, eliminating demonstrated deficiencies.

And that's my coffee break.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Crazedwraith »

Axton wrote:
I've cited observed tactics and technology that give them a path to victory, rather than taking anything by fiat. We know from observation that the ID4 aliens communications technology is among their least developed, being roughly on par with human comms technology circa 1996, while their cybersecurity is nonexistent.
If you can plug into their mothership with their own hardware. Then they're vulnerable. Then you can affect their systems. Otherwise you can detect a pulse that's speeding up. That's it. You can't hack them remotely. Basically you're saying someone's security is shit if you walking into their house with their computer and plug into their server and use their saved passwords to alter things.
We know they scout planets as a requisite of target selection, because the source material demonstrates that one of those scouts crashed. We know, from observation, that the on-board sensors and AI of the Iron Man armor enables Stark to analyze alien technology and find its weak spots, on the fly. We also know that he has at some point in his past hacked the Pentagon on a dare (although he has plenty of character flaws, lying has yet to be demonstrated as being one of them.)
And? Because they scout doesn't mean one of their ships has to crash. Even if a ship has crashed the Avengers don't have access to it straight away.

The analysis of the suit was line of sight and amount to 'squishy on the inside and the mouth is a hole'. Granting both of these, then Stark can tell the energy weapon is a weakpoint if he's right underneath it when it fires. This sort of precludes him surviving to take advantage of it.

Again, hacking requires physical access. So Stark has to get into space and inside the shielded and armored mothership to even attempt it.
So who's playing with fiat? The guy who has pointed out one faction's observed technological and strategic deficiencies? Or the guy who's giving that faction advantages it didn't demonstrate while excluding weaknesses it did demonstrate?
What advantages am I giving the ID4 Aliens?

The only disadvantage I'm refusing to acknowledge is the fighter. Which is not an disadvantage I'm disallowing the ID4 aliens, it's an advantage I'm not allowing the Avengers because the fighter is not a resource of the avengers. This is the fundamental disagreement between us. When comparing them I'm only giving the Avengers things they actually have access to. Not things the ID4 protagonists had. Because they're not the ID4 protagonists.
Also bear in mind that if we give the ID4 faction the proper travel time, that puts them at the head of the queue both with the Avengers and with Loki and his +1s. The assumption for a while has been that it's the Avengers vs Loki + Chitauri / ID4. It could just as easily be (and this is implied by the thread title as well as the OP) The Avengers / Loki + Chitauri vs ID4.
The hell? Who was talking about Time Travel?

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. I've always assumed this will be a three sided fight: Avengers vs Loki + Chitauri vs Id4 aliens. It's just the Avengers and Chitauri are on the wrong end of the city-killer-laser.

Mostly I've been arguing with your stupid notion that the Avengers win because they're the good guys. Which mercifully you've retreated from.

-----

The really stupid thing is. I basically agree with you. The Id4 Aliens have the advantage in the given scenario. They will win. This is what I have argued all along.

If the scenario was different. If the saucers appeared say when the Avengers weren't busy fighting the Loki and the chitauri. And the City killers are hanging around syncing for no apparent reason. Then sure the Avengers have a much better chance of coming out on top.

But I'm not sticking my head in the sand and screaming about what the scenario actually entails.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Lost Soal »

Crazedwraith wrote:
Axton wrote:
I've cited observed tactics and technology that give them a path to victory, rather than taking anything by fiat. We know from observation that the ID4 aliens communications technology is among their least developed, being roughly on par with human comms technology circa 1996, while their cybersecurity is nonexistent.
If you can plug into their mothership with their own hardware. Then they're vulnerable. Then you can affect their systems. Otherwise you can detect a pulse that's speeding up. That's it. You can't hack them remotely. Basically you're saying someone's security is shit if you walking into their house with their computer and plug into their server and use their saved passwords to alter things.
We know they scout planets as a requisite of target selection, because the source material demonstrates that one of those scouts crashed. We know, from observation, that the on-board sensors and AI of the Iron Man armor enables Stark to analyze alien technology and find its weak spots, on the fly. We also know that he has at some point in his past hacked the Pentagon on a dare (although he has plenty of character flaws, lying has yet to be demonstrated as being one of them.)
And? Because they scout doesn't mean one of their ships has to crash. Even if a ship has crashed the Avengers don't have access to it straight away.

The analysis of the suit was line of sight and amount to 'squishy on the inside and the mouth is a hole'. Granting both of these, then Stark can tell the energy weapon is a weakpoint if he's right underneath it when it fires. This sort of precludes him surviving to take advantage of it.

Again, hacking requires physical access. So Stark has to get into space and inside the shielded and armored mothership to even attempt it.
My understanding is that the only reason they needed access to the mothership was to infect every ship on the planet at once. If there's now only one ship (I'm not sure what track this senario is now taking) then direct infection is a possible option and a captured fighter is not neccesarily required, afterall they didn't need the mothership to infect the fighter. As I stated previously I don't know the steps David needed to take to interface with the fighter only that if WIFI techneology existed at the time of ID it was in its absolute infancy.
Also bear in mind that if we give the ID4 faction the proper travel time, that puts them at the head of the queue both with the Avengers and with Loki and his +1s. The assumption for a while has been that it's the Avengers vs Loki + Chitauri / ID4. It could just as easily be (and this is implied by the thread title as well as the OP) The Avengers / Loki + Chitauri vs ID4.
The hell? Who was talking about Time Travel?

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. I've always assumed this will be a three sided fight: Avengers vs Loki + Chitauri vs Id4 aliens. It's just the Avengers and Chitauri are on the wrong end of the city-killer-laser.

Mostly I've been arguing with your stupid notion that the Avengers win because they're the good guys. Which mercifully you've retreated from.
Travel Time, not Time Travel, the time for the ship to get into position.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Crazedwraith »

Lost Soal wrote: My understanding is that the only reason they needed access to the mothership was to infect every ship on the planet at once. If there's now only one ship (I'm not sure what track this senario is now taking) then direct infection is a possible option and a captured fighter is not neccesarily required, afterall they didn't need the mothership to infect the fighter. As I stated previously I don't know the steps David needed to take to interface with the fighter only that if WIFI techneology existed at the time of ID it was in its absolute infancy.
Well I'm going for the scenario in the OP. Wherein the entire ID4 invasion is happening as seen in the film. So mothership and city-killers.

Even with one city-killer there's no evidence it can be accessed remotely. (or did they infect the fighter with a virus remotely? Just have been at very short range regardless)

Travel Time, not Time Travel, the time for the ship to get into position.
You're quite right. No idea how I misread that.

Anyway, as I've previously stated, I find it very hard to believe the ID4 Aliens will stand around wasting time if there's a pitched battle and a portal to unknown enemy forces beneath them. They may have wanted to sychronise their attack for some reason but unless someone can present some proof it was actually unalterable and required for some reason. Then I'll go with shoot first and ask questions later myself.

But that at least is fully just a matter of my opinion.

Even if they do wait. The victor of the avengers vs chitauri battle is going to be worn down and find it much harder to resist and out-think the ID4 aliens.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by NecronLord »

With respect to why the aliens synchronized their attacks until all 36 saucers were in position...
PRESIDENT
So far these things have not become hostile. For the moment let's assume they won't. (to Constance) Connie, let's issue statements advising people not to panic, to stay home and take cover.
I always assumed they were waiting for the last one to get into position (airbraking a fifteen mile ship can't be easy) or wanting to lure in as many human military assets as possible before starting their offensive.

As an aside, apparently the mothership carries 83 saucers, and only launched 36.

And something worth noting:
DAVID
(filtered)
I've worked with embedded loading. They're communicating with a hidden signal. They're going to attack...

CONSTANCE
You're being paranoid.

DAVID
(filtered)
It's not paranoia. The embedding is very subtle. It's probably been overlooked...
It may well be that David was the only person who noticed out of many who looked at the satellite data.

And as for the idea that if they turn up they must have been launching scouting missions, if they've been scouting MCU earth they might well be acutely aware that it has AI (Jervis, Arnim Zola), fusion power, power armour, viable fusion powered combat robots (Hammer drones), and other potential dangers, and adopt a more cautious approach, such as hucking a few comets at the planet from beyond the oort cloud; the ecological damage might well be worth it if the planet presents a greater threat.
RUSSELL
They've got to do something. I was abducted by space aliens ten years ago. They did all kinds of experiments on me. They've been
studying us for years, learning our weakness. We've go to do something before they kill us all!
They're patient. It seems likely they value ecological diversity, so woudln't want to inflcit an extinction level event, but suggesting that aliens that prepare ten, forty year plans wouldn't evaluate MCU Earth as more dangerous than ID4 Earth is dubious at best. So if you desperately want a crashed scout, that means that the aliens are also going to be aware of all the MCU phase 1 films, generally, and might well be prepared to use more destructive tactics.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Axton »

NecronLord wrote:And as for the idea that if they turn up they must have been launching scouting missions, if they've been scouting MCU earth they might well be acutely aware that it has AI (Jervis, Arnim Zola), fusion power, power armour, viable fusion powered combat robots (Hammer drones), and other potential dangers, and adopt a more cautious approach, such as hucking a few comets at the planet from beyond the oort cloud; the ecological damage might well be worth it if the planet presents a greater threat.
And also completely negates their purpose in attacking to begin with. They select planets for their ecological resources. The more plausible behavior if they perceive MCU Earth as too nettlesome to deal with is that they'd simply pass right on by.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by NecronLord »

No, not all comet strikes are globally destructive. You can certainly devastate say, the USA without wiping out the ecological resources on the planet, merely degrading them in value.

I'm also not sure we have any reason to believe they have FTL. Going somewhere else may not be viable.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Axton »

How do we propose they fling comets at the Earth, anyway?
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Esquire »

Well, since the mothership is bigger than most comets they've clearly got the propulsion technology to do so. If they've got FTL drives, they can bring in whatever they want; if not, the mothership must house a colonization fleet (else why bother showing up in the first place?) and they can build whatever they want on-site.

In any case, this whole discussion is irrelevant; you've yet to demonstrate that the Avengers won't be immediately nuked from orbit (well, a few hundred meters up, anyway). The presence or absence of a crashed fighter is also irrelevant, as in the movie U.S. possession of it didn't stop the destruction of however-many cities and effectively the whole world military. The MCUniverse is not overly impressive compared to a civilization that can build something with the capabilities and size of the Independence Day mothership and transport it between star systems. This scenario seems like a colossally-unfair mismatch because it is, in fact, a colossally-unfair mismatch.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Tribble »

Not to mention that the Avengers are already in the middle of a major battle, and the ID Aliens get to setup their attack without being spotted beforehand... this scenario is kind of pointless really. It's even more lopsided than, say, s8472 planet killer ships suddenly showing up and firing at Yavin while the Rebels are fighting the Death Star.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by NecronLord »

Esquire wrote:Well, since the mothership is bigger than most comets they've clearly got the propulsion technology to do so.
The mothership has a quarter the mass of the moon. Just do a pass through say the trojans (for asteroids) or close enough to target comets to almost-but-not-quite capture them in orbit of the mothership and redirect them at Earth. That thing is big.
as in the movie U.S. possession of it didn't stop the destruction of however-many cities and effectively the whole world military
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Axton »

Stopping the destruction of cities isn't the point. That's putting one side to a standard that is a no win scenario, which somewhat obviates the entire point of the vs scenario. You might as well go with, "Well, what if the ID4 faction pops into the inside of the Avengers HQ in the blink of an eye and fires at them point blank before they can even react, and Stark has no Armor, and it's the Thor who got stripped of his powers, and Banner hasn't tried his experiment yet, and Romanov is still a little girl pre- training, and Cap is still the wimpy kid from Brooklyn, and..."

The point isn't whether or not they save everyone, or even anyone. It's whether they come out on top in the end.

And yes, in the end, they would. They might not save New York. Or any other major city. Stark's base isn't in New York, or even L.A. His base is somewhere outside Malibu. And he's the only one who needs a "home base" -- Cap's skills are all integral to his physiology, as are Banner's, as are Romanov's, as are Barton's. Thor's skills are maybe external to his physiology, but unless you're proposing the ID4 faction takes on Asgaard, which is outside the OP, they can't touch the source of his abilities.

Going to observed tactics, we've seen that the ID4 faction uses scouts. If they can employ FTL propulsion, the MCU Earth -- being too thorny to tackle -- would logically be passed by. If they don't, the MCU Earth is still too thorny to tackle, but assuming they have no choice but to try for it anyway, they are definitely so limited, propulsion-wise, that the MCU Earth was their best shot at survival -- as determined by scouts. There is absolutely nothing in the MCU Earth scenario that changes whether or not that scout crashed.

Since it did in the ID4 ficton, and since nothing in the 1940s (or, being generous, the 1950s) MCU Earth was radically different, weather-wise, there's no reason to insert an unknown variable that allows their scout to escape that same fate.

Parsimony. No introduction of superfluous variables. Unless you can explain, concretely, why the ID4 scout did not crash in this scenario, there is no solid foundation for the assumption that anything different happened. Logically, for the mothership to make the trip, there had to be a reason. The most logical reason was a favorable report from a scoutship. The ID4 ficton established that said scoutship crashed on Earth and was recovered and subsequently studied by humans. Unless you can show a canonical difference in the MCU that would actively prevent the crash and/or capture of that scoutship, that scoutship crashed and was captured. Necessarily, per the OP scenario. The ID4 mothership would not arrive without that event. It is the cause, of which the arrival of the mothership is the effect.

And then we get into this thorny little question: Which Tony Stark is the MCU Stark? Because the closest match is the Earth 616 Stark, who is the owner of Area 51. So yes, he'd know about the crashed alien scoutship. And knowing his character, he'd know about it intimately by the time of the events of The Avengers.

Additionally, having the ID4 faction sling comets at Earth in order to dispose of the Avengers before the aliens arrive is cheating -- they don't know, until they arrive, that they're going to have to contend with that threat. So, no, they're not throwing rocks at the planet they've just burnt who-even-knows-how-much fuel to reach in hopes of finding a planet to perch on until they use it up and head for the next one.

So, no. There's no cutting out the ID4 faction's weaknesses. There's no "total victory" for the Avengers, but we're not holding them to that standard, anyway, we're holding them to this one: Could they do what a ravaged and threadbare mundane team of humans did in the same position. Yes. Without the faintest trace of a doubt, they could.

Without FTL, the ID4 aliens would take enough time to arrive that the Avengers could have a plan ready and waiting so that they could thrash the Chitauri and Loki as was done on screen, and still bitchslap the ID4 aliens as an afterthought.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Axton »

Axton wrote:Stopping the destruction of cities isn't the point. That's putting one side to a standard that is a no win scenario, which somewhat obviates the entire point of the vs scenario. You might as well go with, "Well, what if the ID4 faction pops into the inside of the Avengers HQ in the blink of an eye and fires at them point blank before they can even react, and Stark has no Armor, and it's the Thor who got stripped of his powers, and Banner hasn't tried his experiment yet, and Romanov is still a little girl pre- training, and Cap is still the wimpy kid from Brooklyn, and..."

The point isn't "do they save everyone", the point is do they prevail.

The point isn't whether or not they save everyone, or even anyone. It's whether they come out on top in the end.

And yes, in the end, they would. They might not save New York. Or any other major city. Stark's base isn't in New York, or even L.A. His base is somewhere outside Malibu. And he's the only one who needs a "home base" -- Cap's skills are all integral to his physiology, as are Banner's, as are Romanov's, as are Barton's. Thor's skills are maybe external to his physiology, but unless you're proposing the ID4 faction takes on Asgaard, which is outside the OP, they can't touch the source of his abilities.

Going to observed tactics, we've seen that the ID4 faction uses scouts. If they can employ FTL propulsion, the MCU Earth -- being too thorny to tackle -- would logically be passed by. If they don't, the MCU Earth is still too thorny to tackle, but assuming they have no choice but to try for it anyway, they are definitely so limited, propulsion-wise, that the MCU Earth was their best shot at survival -- as determined by scouts. There is absolutely nothing in the MCU Earth scenario that changes whether or not that scout crashed.

Since it did in the ID4 ficton, and since nothing in the 1940s (or, being generous, the 1950s) MCU Earth was radically different, weather-wise, there's no reason to insert an unknown variable that allows their scout to escape that same fate.

Parsimony. No introduction of superfluous variables. Unless you can explain, concretely, why the ID4 scout did not crash in this scenario, there is no solid foundation for the assumption that anything different happened. Logically, for the mothership to make the trip, there had to be a reason. The most logical reason was a favorable report from a scoutship. The ID4 ficton established that said scoutship crashed on Earth and was recovered and subsequently studied by humans. Unless you can show a canonical difference in the MCU that would actively prevent the crash and/or capture of that scoutship, that scoutship crashed and was captured. Necessarily, per the OP scenario. The ID4 mothership would not arrive without that event. It is the cause, of which the arrival of the mothership is the effect.

And then we get into this thorny little question: Which Tony Stark is the MCU Stark? Because the closest match is the Earth 616 Stark, who is the owner of Area 51. So yes, he'd know about the crashed alien scoutship. And knowing his character, he'd know about it intimately by the time of the events of The Avengers.

Additionally, having the ID4 faction sling comets at Earth in order to dispose of the Avengers before the aliens arrive is cheating -- they don't know, until they arrive, that they're going to have to contend with that threat. So, no, they're not throwing rocks at the planet they've just burnt who-even-knows-how-much fuel to reach in hopes of finding a planet to perch on until they use it up and head for the next one.

So, no. There's no cutting out the ID4 faction's weaknesses. There's no "total victory" for the Avengers, but we're not holding them to that standard, anyway, we're holding them to this one: Could they do what a ravaged and threadbare mundane team of humans did in the same position. Yes. Without the faintest trace of a doubt, they could.

Without FTL, the ID4 aliens would take enough time to arrive that the Avengers could have a plan ready and waiting so that they could thrash the Chitauri and Loki as was done on screen, and still bitchslap the ID4 aliens as an afterthought.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Axton »

Axton wrote:Stopping the destruction of cities isn't the point. That's putting one side to a standard that is a no win scenario, which somewhat obviates the entire point of the vs scenario. You might as well go with, "Well, what if the ID4 faction pops into the inside of the Avengers HQ in the blink of an eye and fires at them point blank before they can even react, and Stark has no Armor, and it's the Thor who got stripped of his powers, and Banner hasn't tried his experiment yet, and Romanov is still a little girl pre- training, and Cap is still the wimpy kid from Brooklyn, and..."

The point isn't whether or not they save everyone, or even anyone. It's whether they come out on top in the end.

Like Stark says, " 'cause if we can't protect the Earth you can be damned well sure we'll avenge it." That's their mission statement, and the genesis of what they call themselves.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/jypQSwaHRuU[/youtube]

And yes, in the end, they would. They might not save New York. Or any other major city. Stark's base isn't in New York, or even L.A. His base is somewhere outside Malibu. And he's the only one who needs a "home base" -- Cap's skills are all integral to his physiology, as are Banner's, as are Romanov's, as are Barton's. Thor's skills are maybe external to his physiology, but unless you're proposing the ID4 faction takes on Asgaard, which is outside the OP, they can't touch the source of his abilities.

Going to observed tactics, we've seen that the ID4 faction uses scouts. If they can employ FTL propulsion, the MCU Earth -- being too thorny to tackle -- would logically be passed by. If they don't, the MCU Earth is still too thorny to tackle, but assuming they have no choice but to try for it anyway, they are definitely so limited, propulsion-wise, that the MCU Earth was their best shot at survival -- as determined by scouts. There is absolutely nothing in the MCU Earth scenario that changes whether or not that scout crashed.

Since it did in the ID4 ficton, and since nothing in the 1940s (or, being generous, the 1950s) MCU Earth was radically different, weather-wise, there's no reason to insert an unknown variable that allows their scout to escape that same fate.

Parsimony. No introduction of superfluous variables. Unless you can explain, concretely, why the ID4 scout did not crash in this scenario, there is no solid foundation for the assumption that anything different happened. Logically, for the mothership to make the trip, there had to be a reason. The most logical reason was a favorable report from a scoutship. The ID4 ficton established that said scoutship crashed on Earth and was recovered and subsequently studied by humans. Unless you can show a canonical difference in the MCU that would actively prevent the crash and/or capture of that scoutship, that scoutship crashed and was captured. Necessarily, per the OP scenario. The ID4 mothership would not arrive without that event. It is the cause, of which the arrival of the mothership is the effect.

And then we get into this thorny little question: Which Tony Stark is the MCU Stark? Because the closest match is the Earth 616 Stark, who is the owner of Area 51. So yes, he'd know about the crashed alien scoutship. And knowing his character, he'd know about it intimately by the time of the events of The Avengers.

Additionally, having the ID4 faction sling comets at Earth in order to dispose of the Avengers before the aliens arrive is cheating -- they don't know, until they arrive, that they're going to have to contend with that threat. So, no, they're not throwing rocks at the planet they've just burnt who-even-knows-how-much fuel to reach in hopes of finding a planet to perch on until they use it up and head for the next one.

So, no. There's no cutting out the ID4 faction's weaknesses. There's no "total victory" for the Avengers, but we're not holding them to that standard, anyway, we're holding them to this one: Could they do what a ravaged and threadbare mundane team of humans did in the same position. Yes. Without the faintest trace of a doubt, they could.

Without FTL, the ID4 aliens would take enough time to arrive that the Avengers could have a plan ready and waiting so that they could thrash the Chitauri and Loki as was done on screen, and still bitchslap the ID4 aliens as an afterthought.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Axton »

Board glitch? Sorry. Someone please remove the unintentional quoted bits, those were meant to be edits.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Axton »

Video clip I was trying (and obviously failing) to add:



And yes, the original ficton's demonstration of the ID4 faction matters. We saw who beat them. We know that the Avengers outclass the team that already beat the ID4 faction.

Unless you're going to disregard observed performance.
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Re: Independance Day aliens vs Loki and Avengers

Post by Axton »

The other thing is giving the ID4 faction the ability to sling asteroids or comets in a deliberate, targeted way -- they demonstrated no such capability, canonically.

Honestly, I've read enough of this board to know that there's a subsection of users here who get great big nerd chubbies for the aliens who have the biggest ships, but at this point y'all are moanin' and strokin' like size queens. It's gross. Sperglord cringey. Quit it. Nasty. Ew.
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