Steve Rogers is now a Nazi

[Tsyroc]

Given that they are showing backstory for why Steve Rogers is supposedly a long time sleeper agent of Hydra the best "excuse" I've seen for this is that he is from an alternate reality, assuming he really is Steve Rogers.

Hydra is good at implanting memories so I suppose it could be the real deal, with a recent brainwashing. No way has he always been a Hydra sleeper. What was he waiting for? How many times was he involved in totally jacking up massive Hydra plots/plans? There's only so much of that which can make sense before he is doing more harm to their cause than any potential benefit they got from him being a sleeper.

It is complete garbage if this is 616 Steve Rogers and the sleeper agent thing is real from day one. A secret Hydra agent who knows he's a secret Hydra agent is never ever, ever going to be worthy of wielding Mjolnir for the briefest of moments let alone being able to use it to fight.

Anyway, Marvel has had Steve Rogers look alikes in the past. The Red Skull was running around in a cloned body. Crazy Commie buster Cap from the 50s had plastic surgery to look like Steve Rogers and even went by that name.

[Zixinus]

Weren't there multiple times where Steve "turned traitor", including the one time he defected to being a Nazi at one point?

[Iroscato]

This shit is why I stopped reading Marvel. Only DC now, which is a shame, because I was a Marvel Zombie back in the 90s.

DC do exactly the same thing. Look at Batgirl becoming the head of the League of Assassins or Green Lantern going insane in Zero Hour.

I don't read comics, really - but it seems Cap hasn't just gone turncoat...he's been a sleeper agent his whole life. The retroactive character assassination goes beyond him just having a funny turn, they're trying to say he's always been an agent of evil.

I freely admit I'm a little butthurt at this - Cap is my favourite Avenger in the MCU precisely because of his strong moral compass and unshakeably decent character - I'm willing to bet I'm not alone in that. This is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard about in comic book land, and that's saying something.

[Batman]

I'm with Chimaera-superhero comics have done some incredibly stupid stuff in the past but this is a new level. Cap having been brainwashed/hypnotized/replaced by a robot/clone/shapeshifter is one thing, but him having been HYDRA from the word go simply defies comprehension.

[The Romulan Republic]

What it comes down to is this: If sensationalist twists are more important to you than coherent plot or good characterization, you have no business being a fiction writer.

[jwl]

This shit is why I stopped reading Marvel. Only DC now, which is a shame, because I was a Marvel Zombie back in the 90s.

DC do exactly the same thing. Look at Batgirl becoming the head of the League of Assassins or Green Lantern going insane in Zero Hour.

I don't read comics, really - but it seems Cap hasn't just gone turncoat...he's been a sleeper agent his whole life. The retroactive character assassination goes beyond him just having a funny turn, they're trying to say he's always been an agent of evil.

I freely admit I'm a little butthurt at this - Cap is my favourite Avenger in the MCU precisely because of his strong moral compass and unshakeably decent character - I'm willing to bet I'm not alone in that. This is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard about in comic book land, and that's saying something.

Good point, but mr friendly guy was talking about this as an overall trend in Marvel, not as something out of the blue Marvel has never done before. It is true that Marvel has done a scaled-back version of this before, and has been doing it for years, but so has DC.

[Isolder74]

I'm with Chimaera-superhero comics have done some incredibly stupid stuff in the past but this is a new level. Cap having been brainwashed/hypnotized/replaced by a robot/clone/shapeshifter is one thing, but him having been HYDRA from the word go simply defies comprehension.

Agreed. This is stupid on the level of suddenly finding out that the Waynes never actually died all those years ago but have been secretly living in the batcave the entire time. The very concept in the creation of Captain America makes his having any association with the group created, funded and run by stanchest Nazi to end all Nazis Red Skull absolutely ludicrous.

This is a stunt it has to be.

[Kojiro]

Agreed. This is stupid on the level of suddenly finding out that the Waynes never actually died all those years ago but have been secretly living in the batcave the entire time.

As someone said on another forum, this would be like finding out the Joker is has always be a really, really deep cover DEA agent.

[Batman]

Don't give them ideas. The current DCU is bad enough as it is.

[Iroscato]

What it comes down to is this: If sensationalist twists are more important to you than coherent plot or good characterization, you have no business being a fiction writer.

Hear fucking hear!

[Elheru Aran]

Don't give them ideas. The current DCU is bad enough as it is.

You *could* have a pretty interesting Elseworlds plotline if you depict Batman as a ultimate schemer who's manipulating all his villains into bringing down the city of Gotham, and by extension the WORLD, into subjugation and control via the BAT.

Hell, I would be surprised if they haven't done that already yet...

[Simon_Jester]

Honestly, I think the Marvel and DC executives (and in at least some cases, the writers) should be purged top to bottom. Fire them and replace them.

The problem isn't the executives specifically, it's a corporate executive problem in general- or it wouldn't afflict both DC and Marvel so badly.

Basically, the idea of stirring up shit to increase sales and raise the profile of one's brand is common throughout the entertainment-for-profit industry. Think of the soap operas, which basically turn this very trick into a multi-decade business model. The only difference is that they use love affairs and interpersonal drama instead of secret Nazi conspiracies and whatnot.

[Kojiro]

Chris Evans is apparently not impressed but I doubt he's worried about MCU Cap.

[MKSheppard]

Crazy Commie buster Cap from the 50s had plastic surgery to look like Steve Rogers and even went by that name.

William Naslund (1945-46 Cap), Jeffrey Mace (1946-1949 Cap) and William Burnside (1950s Cap) have been horribly mishandled by all the Marvel writers.

[Ralin]

So I haven't read this comic but from what I'm hearing the context is that there have been some pretty strong hints that Hydra has been fucking with history via the Cosmic Cube or something and that this thing with Cap is probably connected. Anyone able to confirm or deny that?

[NeoGoomba]

This stupid storyline has gotten so much attention I saw it on the mini news report that played while I was gassing up my fucking car. This is just another attention grabbing event. But why they need to do such a thing is beyond me, with the amount of love Cap now gets worldwide thanks to the films. I'm on-board the whole "It's not OUR Steve Rogers, it's A Steve Rogers" theory, since he was brought back by a Cosmic Cube and the Battleworld event just ended. He may be something like an "Age of Apocalypse" Rogers the Cube used as a template instead of the 616 one.

[mr friendly guy]

Good point, but mr friendly guy was talking about this as an overall trend in Marvel, not as something out of the blue Marvel has never done before. It is true that Marvel has done a scaled-back version of this before, and has been doing it for years, but so has DC.

Just to clarify, its not so much the retconning per se, its the shitting on the character by changing their personalities or undoing character development, of which retconning is one tool of many. For example...

Captain America -> no longer the first super soldier. It was some African American the US was doing syphilis testing, er I mean tested the super soldier serum on.

Thor-> became actually smart, didn't just gain the Odin power, went beyond that and broke the Ragnorak cycle, which even Odin could not do. Then he was brought back as a dumbass and Odin has to come back as well. Thanks JMS. Then he is no longer even Thor. Its now Jane Foster.

Spiderman -> can I say Brand New Day. Hey screw your marriage Spiderman. Not to mention Mephisto has the power to alter reality but he can't do it unless he bargains with you and you give him permission to do it. WTF? Its like the US has the power to nuke other nations but can only do so if the Vatican agrees. Who comes up with this shit?

Now retconning can actually improve a comic. For example in Green Lantern they added that Green was the colour of willpower, but there are other "emotions" with their own colours and they added entire rival lantern corps. That makes it more epic. Meanwhile dumbing down Thor just made him look stupid.

[Tsyroc]

Just to clarify, its not so much the retconning per se, its the shitting on the character by changing their personalities or undoing character development, of which retconning is one tool of many. For example...

Captain America -> no longer the first super soldier. It was some African American the US was doing syphilis testing, er I mean tested the super soldier serum on.

I didn't like how it diminished Steve Rogers but I do like Isiah Bradley and his grandson. I just wish they would have done the story as testing to recreate the serum after Professor Irskine was killed. They've run with everyone trying to recreate the super soldier serum every other way, including the MCU and the Ultimate Universe. So we know it works.

Thor-> became actually smart, didn't just gain the Odin power, went beyond that and broke the Ragnorak cycle, which even Odin could not do. Then he was brought back as a dumbass and Odin has to come back as well. Thanks JMS. Then he is no longer even Thor. Its now Jane Foster.

It would have been interesting for them to keep writing stories with "OdinThor" and Loki's head. If they want to retcon things back to the end of that series and make that Thor "The Allfather" and have him make Jane Foster, or someone else the new "Thor" I'd be fine with that. Jane as Thor has been okay. Thor giving up his name and going by Odinson is stupid.

Spiderman -> can I say Brand New Day. Hey screw your marriage Spiderman. Not to mention Mephisto has the power to alter reality but he can't do it unless he bargains with you and you give him permission to do it. WTF? Its like the US has the power to nuke other nations but can only do so if the Vatican agrees. Who comes up with this shit?

Yeah, that one was complete bullshit.

If you wanted to read bachelor Spider-man there was a perfectly good version over in Ultimate Spider-man going on at that time. I guess it was just too difficult to write a married superhero.

Now retconning can actually improve a comic. For example in Green Lantern they added that Green was the colour of willpower, but there are other "emotions" with their own colours and they added entire rival lantern corps. That makes it more epic. Meanwhile dumbing down Thor just made him look stupid.

I'm one of those people who doesn't particularly care for the emotional spectrum idea. I don't hate it, because the designs for the other corps look cool. I'm just not crazy about the premise and I kind of liked Kyle Rayner as GL and Ion. I also kind of liked Hal Jordan as the Spectre.

It is annoying when they make Thor stupid. They already have Hercules if they want to have a knuckleheaded superhero/god. Even he's not supposed to be as dense as they usually portray him.

[mr friendly guy]

It would have been interesting for them to keep writing stories with "OdinThor" and Loki's head. If they want to retcon things back to the end of that series and make that Thor "The Allfather" and have him make Jane Foster, or someone else the new "Thor" I'd be fine with that. Jane as Thor has been okay. Thor giving up his name and going by Odinson is stupid.

That was my thought as well. I wanted "Rune King Thor," and someone else gets either Mjolnir or a new hammer. Actually make a new Mjolnir clone while Thor gets the Surtur enhanced one which Thor used to cut the thread of fate. This should have been done say when JMS took over. Then if they wanted Jane to also be Thor later they can have several Thors running around. I mean at one stage Marvel had Thunderstrike, Beta Ray Bill and also Dargo (future Thor) so that should be ok. Although I really dislike Jane's "I must suffer (from cancer instead of using Asgardian magic to cure myself) Jesus complex."

But Marvel will of course continue to shit on the Thor characters since we added Angela as Thor's er I mean Odinson's sister, who then overthrew Hela after discovering that the realm of Hel has contrived quests you can do to gain power to challenge Hela, which everyone knows about but apparently Hela never thought to go on these quests to strengthen her own power because... reasons.

[ArmorPierce]

Apparently Stan lee has come out in favor of the captain Americas plot twist.

Personally, I'm still in favor of it because it validates my position regarding the need oversight.

http://uproxx.com/gammasquad/stan-lee-c ... a-traitor/

[Grumman]

Lee thinks that it’s marketable and gets people talking about Captain America comics again (it did).

Neither of those are good things. Yes it's a high concept idea, but that only makes it easier for people to grok, it does not guarantee that their opinion will be positive. In this case it just makes it easier for your PR to crash and burn, because "Marvel says Captain America was always a Nazi" is also a high concept, marketable idea that gets people talking again.

Personally, I'm still in favor of it because it validates my position regarding the need oversight.

If you want to do that I'd rather they write stories where he has oversight, and fire anyone who tries to write another fascist storyline where the government is corrupt and only the ubermensch can save us from our elected representatives.

[Simon_Jester]

Apparently Stan lee has come out in favor of the captain Americas plot twist.

Either he's lying (and knows something he doesn't), or his brain's softening up in his old age, or he is realllly really mercenary.

[Gandalf]

Apparently Stan lee has come out in favor of the captain Americas plot twist.

Either he's lying (and knows something he doesn't), or his brain's softening up in his old age, or he is realllly really mercenary.

Why? He's basically Ronald McDonald for Marvel.

[Simon_Jester]

Your response does not make sense given what I actually said.

In case (1) he knows something we don't which is why he thinks it's a good idea. Him being Marvel's mascot in no way conflicts with this.

In case (2) he's going senile, which in no way conflicts with him being Marvel's mascot.

In case (3) he's "mercenary," which certainly doesn't conflict with him being Marvel's mascot, and to be more precise, he's thinking it's a good idea because in the short run it will sell more comic books, which again, doesn't conflict with him being Marvel's mascot.

So the question you're asking me doesn't really conflict with anything I said...

[Gandalf]

I may have misinterpreted your use of the term "mercenary," which I took to be hugely different to a regular paid employee. That's on me.