Biologists now think there is a wider spectrum than two sexes

[Formless]

Are you completely illiterate? That's not what I'm asking you to do, you trolling asshat!

[Axton]

Are you completely illiterate? That's not what I'm asking you to do, you trolling asshat!

Are you ignoring my question? I've restated it for absolute clarity. That restatement for clarity changes its terms in such a way as to do exactly what you asked for. Now, tell me, are you ignoring the question? Didn't you just try to bully me with some 'rules' ignoring points goes against?

[Axton]

So I am going to ask you just once. Back up your claim that:

Can non-male or non-female propagate the species? Because that's the function of sex as a biological construct. And (unless we're getting into some transhumanist woo here) function is what drives biology.

You're asking me to back up a claim that isn't a claim. It's a question. Answer the question.

[Alyrium Denryle]

This should suffice: The medical community classifies non-binary gender affectation as a dysmorphic disorder.

Wrong. According to the OP, a biologist -- one biologist, Paul James, has asserted that there is more than one gender, and has offered cases of genetic mosaicism as his evidence.

There is also THIS biologist who you have rather pointedly ignored. Oh, and Formless is a psychologist if I recall.

The condition of having a gender that does not match genetic or morphological sex is not the disorder. The dysphoria is. The distress caused by the mismatch. Fix the mismatch through hormones and surgery to the extent that the patient needs, and unlike the vast majority of other psychological disorders that particular condition is cured and the only thing that is left to fix is the depression caused by being treated like shit by petty little assholes such as yourself.

That is the position of the medical community on the subject. That is why ANY child psychologist worth their salt recommends early medical intervention as soon as a transgender child is diagnosed, at bare minimum to hold off puberty until such time as they are ready for full hormone therapy and possible surgical intervention.

As for the position of pretty much all of research biology, we have known sex (the construct, but often the act...) is strange and non-binary for a long time. Nature has true hermaphrodites, age-sequential hermaphrodites, socially-sequential hermaphrodites (you know Finding Nemo? Nemo's dad should have had a sex-change montage as soon as his mate was eaten), facultative hermaphroditism, pathenogenesis. That humans have some variation in both sex and gender... not atypical. That is pretty normal. Though obviously we cannot really ask the frog how it feels about its sex change.

Demonstrate a fertile human being who was neither male nor female. Every fertile human being has been dominantly one or the other with marginal genetic corruptions.

Welcome to the dominican republic.

There is a population there where people are born as typical girls (complete with ovaries), but when puberty hits they get the dose of developmental testosterone they never received in the womb, and transform into fully functioning men. Complete with a fully functioning penis. This is normal within that population. Not everyone goes through it, but a significant fraction do. And sometimes they are trans to boot.

Also: Stop calling things abberations and corruptions. If you were just calling them anomalies, you would not come off as the repugnant little person your words call you out as being. Corruption and Abberation have moral connotations. Moral connotations you have denied invoking.

Change your language or stop lying. Pick one.

Statistical outliers do not nullify norms.

Norms are just norms. They dont mean anything. It is simply "what is most common". Do you treat statistical outliers like people who are seven feet tall the way you do transpeople? I would guess not.

Also: You dont get to refer to something as a binary and also call something a norm. Math does not work that way. What we have for both sex and gender are bimodal distributions of continuous straits. There are a pair of very sharp peaks in those bimodal curves, but they are still curves. We we are dealing with continuous variables, not categorical ones.

Go learn some basic fucking statistics and come back.

You get cocks-and-balls, you get ova-and-vaginas, or you get genetically corrupted intermixes of the two. A proper third gender would have something totally new in the place of the genitalia of the gender binary. Like, hell, I dunno, a flesh covered spork-like thing.

Take your strawman and shove it up your ass. May it damage your prostate on the way up.

No one is saying there is a third gender (except certain aboriginal cultures). What are saying is that the sex and gender axes are continuous rather than categorical variables. Which is absolutely true.

And I can guarantee you, that you have not read as much of the biological literature as I have on the subject.

[Formless]

...

Axton, you are illiterate and a troll. You cannot apparently understand what a claim is or how a claim is stated in the English language. Your arguments have all hinged on the assumption clearly stated right there about the function of sex as it pertains to reproduction! At this point, there is no way to talk to you. This is the Wall of Ignorance distilled into as few words as I have ever seen it. Your clarification is completely meaningless, your accusation of bullying proves you have not read the rules of the forum, and your request that I answer your restated question proves you are incapable of understanding literally anything that anyone has told you thus far in this thread.

There is also THIS biologist who you have rather pointedly ignored. Oh, and Formless is a psychologist if I recall.

Well, still a student, but in a year that will change! I'll be a grad student, if everything goes right.

My education has taken... a while. I don't want to oversell myself by saying I am already a psychologist, but in a year I do hope to be in grad school. And even if it takes forever, after that I do hope to get a Ph.D.

Still, I can school this moron on pretty much any psych topic he wants to talk about, gender issues very much included.

Next time you meet an aspiring young 18 year old fresh out of highschool, tell them on my behalf not to take the community college rout.

[Axton]

The condition of having a gender that does not match genetic or morphological sex is not the disorder. The dysphoria is.

*sigh* That's what dysphoria is. Dysphoria is a neurological disconnect between the physical body and the mind's perception of it. Same for anorexia, same for transgenderism, same for non-binary-gender perception. It's a neurochemical disorder rooted in genetic anomaly.

Fix the mismatch through hormones and surgery to the extent that the patient needs, and unlike the vast majority of other psychological disorders that particular condition is cured

No, it isn't.

and the only thing that is left to fix is the depression caused by being treated like shit by petty little assholes such as yourself.

For one thing, the studies on why depression follows SRS are inconclusive, and for another, fuck you and your self-righteous bullshit name calling. You don't know how I treat anyone, you presumptuous little snot.

And I can guarantee you, that you have not read as much of the biological literature as I have on the subject.

No, you fucking can't guarantee that, because you don't know how much of it I've read.

[Axton]

Change your language or stop lying. Pick one.

Pay me to. I'm not your fucking slave.

[Axton]

Norms are just norms. They dont mean anything. It is simply "what is most common".

So you say, in one breath, that they "don't mean anything", and in the next, you go on to spell out exactly what they fucking do mean. Do you even see the self-contradictions? Yes, they mean "what is most common" or, in evolutionary terms, "what is genetically productive", "what is not weeded out by the process of natural selection."

[Simon_Jester]

Axton is going into a death spiral (seriously, his response to "stop lying" is "pay me to, I'm not your slave..." )

But I wanted to address one specific point of his. One thing that stands aside from the general mush he creates by pretending not to understand that "a genetic anomaly" is an accurate description of literally everything about living organisms. not just stuff he wants to dismiss as "weird and irrelevant to my preconceived ideas."

Fix the mismatch through hormones and surgery to the extent that the patient needs, and unlike the vast majority of other psychological disorders that particular condition is cured

No, it isn't.

Nothing cited in the article you link to suggests that depression follows SRS. It merely states that people who have received SRS are more likely to be depressed. There is a difference. Indeed, literally the whole article contradicts your basic stance, and argues that yes, SRS cures gender dysphoria. It just doesn't cure the side effects

But then, Vitamin C will cure scurvy... But won't make your teeth grow back if they fell out from scurvy. Curing the side effects is not the same as curing the underlying condition.

and the only thing that is left to fix is the depression caused by being treated like shit by petty little assholes such as yourself.

For one thing, the studies on why depression follows SRS are inconclusive...

Since transgender people have staggering high rates of depression before SRS, it really is not surprising that they continue to have it after SRS.

Because, as Alyrium notes, transgender people are subject to massive levels of all manner of abuse and ostracism. In many if not most cases their families effectively disown them. Large fractions of society regard them as acceptable targets for violence and sexual abuse. Many people believe that they are dangerous, evil perverts who pose a threat to innocent people and particularly children.

If people thought that way about you, you'd probably end up clinically depressed too. And surgery that made you feel better about your own body wouldn't make you feel better about all the verbal and physical and sexual abuse and lingering traumas and psychological complexes you'd build up over the twenty or thirty or forty years you spent growing up in the wrong gender.

...and for another, fuck you and your self-righteous bullshit name calling. You don't know how I treat anyone, you presumptuous little snot.

You spend your time on an Internet forum taking the time to pat yourself on the back for how "objectively" you call transgender people freakish 'genetic anomalies' who subvert the 'purpose' of the species (or reproduction, or whatever the heck you're talking about).

That's not promising. If you were capable of not treating people with intersex conditions* decently in person, you wouldn't be staking out the position that they're freaks on the Internet.

*(including homosexuality and gender identity issues)

And I can guarantee you, that you have not read as much of the biological literature as I have on the subject.

No, you fucking can't guarantee that, because you don't know how much of it I've read.

He's got a Ph.D. in biology, fool child. The list of scientific literature he's read on the subject is probably longer than the list of such literature that you can read. Because if you were scientifically literate enough to read the relevant literature, you wouldn't be wasting everyone's time with all this (literally) sophomoric bloviation.

I mean hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the list I've read is the same, because I can work my way from one end of a scientific paper to the other without deciding to yell at the English language for not working the way I want it to work.

[Alyrium Denryle]

*sigh* That's what dysphoria is. Dysphoria is a neurological disconnect between the physical body and the mind's perception of it. Same for anorexia, same for transgenderism, same for non-binary-gender perception. It's a neurochemical disorder rooted in genetic anomaly.

Okay. Someone does not understand the etiology of things in the DSM V. Disorders are classified by presentation in the DSM, not by cause. You have mood disorders (which have different causes), personality disorders (which are all over the place), etc etc. Not all the dysphoric disorders have the same root cause. Anorexia for example is a acquired disorder that may have some genetic contribution--likely indirect through other personality traits or co-morbid disorders--but it is acquired, usually in the teens and can be treated through talk therapy to break the dysphoria.

Gender dyphoria associated with gender identity is not acquired. It is a disorder that results from being Trans. Being Trans is in-born as all evidence thus far suggests, and is driven by actual anatomical differences in the brain.

A genetic anomaly? Sure. But it is not a corruption, any more than someone growing oddly tall is a corruption. It is variation, and variation that is pretty consistent in our species. We therefore must take that variation into account.

It is worth noting as well that blue eyes were once an "anomaly", resistance to HIV is an "anomaly". All an anomaly is, is an uncommon variant.

No, it isn't.

Yeah, it is. There are simply other problems. The Dysphoria is relieved--according to your own damned article. Other psychological problems are not.

For one thing, the studies on why depression follows SRS are inconclusive, and for another, fuck you and your self-righteous bullshit name calling. You don't know how I treat anyone, you presumptuous little snot.

1. Whenever you call something "corruption", it is a pretty good clue as to how to treat people who are "corrupted".

Your word choice speaks volumes.

2. Yes, they are.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 2v51n03_04

http://www.cjcmh.com/doi/abs/10.7870/cjcmh-2011-0021

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/ab ... 013.301241

And the ultimate in controls...transgender children.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... 3.abstract

It is almost as if the depression and anxiety that lead to suicidal ideation in transgender people is the result of being treated like crap, or being afraid of people treating them like crap. Children who are supported and transition early do not have those problems.

The article you posted about post-op suicide? Yeah, I actually read the paper it is talking about. There is one notable problem with the study:

They did not control for pre-operative suicidal attempts and ideation. It is something they make note of, in fact. The ONLY thing that study shows is that, like gay people, even post op transsexuals are at risk of suicide. Which is something everyone and their mother already knows. In its references, there are a host of studies performed on improvements in quality of life post-transition. This means that had they not transitioned, they would be worse off.

No, you fucking can't guarantee that, because you don't know how much of it I've read.

You know what my PhD is in? Do I need to remind you? Quantitative Biology, specializing as a behavioral ecologist. Oh, and I have a psych minor. So yeah, I can pretty much guarantee that I have read more of the biological literature on sex (both the state, and the act) than you have.

Pay me to. I'm not your fucking slave.

No. You are not. But this board does have rules regarding intellectual honesty.

So you say, in one breath, that they "don't mean anything", and in the next, you go on to spell out exactly what they fucking do mean. Do you even see the self-contradictions? Yes, they mean "what is most common" or, in evolutionary terms, "what is genetically productive", "what is not weeded out by the process of natural selection."

They dont mean anything in terms of what "should" be, you jackass. There is no "should" in nature, there is only what Is. Even the word "productive" is meaningless, because that implies preferences or purpose.

[Axton]

Gender dyphoria associated with gender identity is not acquired.

I never at any fucking point said that it was. I have consistently characterized it as a genetic disorder. As you yourself do in the following sentence:

It is a disorder that results from being Trans. Being Trans is in-born as all evidence thus far suggests, and is driven by actual anatomical differences in the brain.

And anatomical differences in the brain arise from genetic anomaly.

A genetic anomaly? Sure. But it is not a corruption, any more than someone growing oddly tall is a corruption.

Someone growing oddly tall is generally a result of hyperthyroidism, with similar health-jeopardizing disorders as acromegaly attendant. It is a corruption. It is not the average presentation. it is anomalous.

It is variation, and variation that is pretty consistent in our species. We therefore must take that variation into account.

It is not a simple "variation" as are recessive traits like blue eyes or blonde hair. It is anomalous, and if we take into account the depression which accompanies it -- even after surgical and hormonal modification, and including both suicidal ideation and suicidal action, it is no less a life threatening anomaly than are the respiratory and cardiac overtaxation which accompany hyperthyroidism.

It is worth noting as well that blue eyes were once an "anomaly", resistance to HIV is an "anomaly". All an anomaly is, is an uncommon variant.

And that's all I've depicted them as.

No, it isn't.

Yeah, it is. There are simply other problems. The Dysphoria is relieved--according to your own damned article. Other psychological problems are not.

That's not what the article concludes. The article concludes that even surgical and hormonal intervention don't relieve the stress and depression which attend this form of dysphoria. It is a neurological perception anomaly. It's not a choice, it's not a lifestyle. It's not an identity, and it's not a "new gender" or an "expansion" in any "gender spectrum." It's a neurological condition.

For one thing, the studies on why depression follows SRS are inconclusive, and for another, fuck you and your self-righteous bullshit name calling. You don't know how I treat anyone, you presumptuous little snot.

1. Whenever you call something "corruption", it is a pretty good clue as to how to treat people who are "corrupted".

How do we treat a file on a hard drive that's corrupted? And no, fuck your fucking quotation marks, it's not "corrupted", it's corrupted. It is an error.

You keep acting as if I'm attaching a moral judgment to that word; I'm not. I'm not devaluing people, I'm accurately describing a genetic condition.

[Formless]

I'll put this out there since a certain dumbass doesn't yet get it. Psychologists and other clinical professionals that work with mentally distressed people are very careful about using the words "normal" and "abnormal" precisely because they want to avoid implying that eccentric viewpoints are bad (when many famous geniuses were eccentrics precisely because of their intelligence!), including gender and sexual orientations outside what society deems "normal." Most psychologists are aware of how that word is used by the general public, and sociologists are explicit that the word "norm" is actually a description of cultural ideals rather than reality. Its literally part of the jargon. When psychologists talk about "abnormal" they are NOT talking about statistics. They make it very clear that it has to do with mental function that causes distress or inability to live a normal life. To a degree that can mean the ability to adapt to social norms, which sociopaths cannot, but that's about it. Transexuals, people with intersex conditions, and genderqueer individuals simply do not meet any of the criteria for mental illness. Period. So they aren't "abnormal" in that sense. But you are making it sound as if they are, and that's horrible.

Not that Axton's behavior is terribly surprising at this point: "what is genetically productive" and "what is most common" are completely unrelated things... except when talking to homophobes that want a biological excuse for their prejudice. Gays all over the place are well aware of the usual attacks that sex is wrong unless it can make a baby. Its one of many reasons I stopped going to church. Its quite insulting, and not just to LBGT people. Plenty of people who otherwise fit the social ideal have difficulty having children. Such difficulties were even more common before modern medicine and modern nutrition. And it is extremely offensive to imply that people with fertility problems are somehow "corrupt aberrations." Seriously, you sound like a literal goddamn Nazi when you talk like that.

Being black in some parts of the USA is statistically unlikely. Talk like that about black people and its clear you are just being a racist asshole. The only discernable difference between that and what Axton is talking about is the claims he made about the purpose of sex... which he refuses to support.

[Axton]

I'll put this out there since a certain dumbass doesn't yet get it.

I warned you about the ad hominem fallacy, boy.

Psychologists and other clinical professionals that work with mentally distressed people are very careful about using the words "normal" and "abnormal" precisely because they want to avoid implying that eccentric viewpoints are bad (when many famous geniuses were eccentrics precisely because of their intelligence!), including gender and sexual orientations outside what society deems "normal." Most psychologists are aware of how that word is used by the general public, and sociologists are explicit that the word "norm" is actually a description of cultural ideals rather than reality. Its literally part of the jargon. When psychologists talk about "abnormal" they are NOT talking about statistics. They make it very clear that it has to do with mental function that causes distress or inability to live a normal life. To a degree that can mean the ability to adapt to social norms, which sociopaths cannot, but that's about it. Transexuals, people with intersex conditions, and genderqueer individuals simply do not meet any of the criteria for mental illness. Period.

Wrong. Body dysmorphic disorder is a family of psychiatric disorders. And genderqueerism is body dysmorphic disorder, cloaked in identity politics.

[Axton]

Being black in some parts of the USA is statistically unlikely. Talk like that about black people and its clear you are just being a racist asshole. The only discernable difference between that and what Axton is talking about is the claims he made about the purpose of sex... which he refuses to support.

"Ist! Ist! Ist!"

Nope. SJWs have worn all the traction off that family of accusations. They no longer gain you any traction, in any debate, because they have been so heavily and so ridiculously overused. Throw any cheap, paltry little "-ist!" at me you like, it's meaningless.

The purpose of sexual intercourse is to pass genetic material from one generation to the next. That is the function of the reproductive system -- to reproduce.

Now argue that point. Look to all the world as though you're a first-rate dunce.

[Formless]

Well! We have a confirmed Transphobic and/or homophobic asshole on our hands! That is just so surprising, isn't it. And he even used Social Justice Warrior as a pejorative, how cute. And oh oh oh, I just noticed that he conflated the Ad Hominim fallacy with being insulted. So both ignorant of fallacies and didn't read the rules, ten more points for both mistakes! I'm guessing after claiming that sex really is only for reproduction he is going to go out and have sex with his wife and totally ignore everything he just said by wearing a condom.

Never go Full Retard. It is the point of no return.

[Simon_Jester]

You didn't read the part where Alyrium laid this out, did you?

Because he came right out and said, "...Disorders are classified by presentation in the DSM, not by cause." Different things may be "disorders" caused by different things. A disorder caused by genes and a disorder caused by chemical imbalances in the brain (which may or may not have a genetic root cause) get listed side by side.

Anorexia and gender dysphoria have some shared symptoms (body dysmorphia). But that doesn't mean they have the same kind of cause or are comparable conditions or should be treated the same way.

For example, physical weakness is a symptom of anemia, and a symptom of muscular dystrophy. You treat anemia with iron supplements. You can't treat muscular dystrophy at all, not really. They're totally different conditions that have nothing in common, but they have the same symptom- weakness.

So you cannot say "both disorders involve weakness, so they are the same, and anemia is a genetic wasting disease!" It's just plain not true, and claiming it is grossly stupid.

...

Anorexia is the result of the mind, as distinct from a specific chunk of the brain, permanently trapped thinking the body is "too fat-" this becomes an idee fixe that will not go away. It is treated by convincing the anorexic person to change their mind- talk therapy can suffice.

Gender dysphoria is the result of having a body with the part of the brain that tells you "am I male or female" genetically set to "this," while your actual body is genetically set to "that." It cannot be fixed by convincing someone to change their mind, because you cannot persuade someone that they are a member of the opposite sex any more than you can persuade someone that they are a giraffe.

You cannot convince a female-to-male transgender person that they're actually a woman by talking to them. No more so than I could convince you that you are a woman by talking to you. Because your gender identity and theirs are set the exact same way, there is a chunk of the brain whose wiring declares "I'm male!"

For someone who has a brain wired to say "I'm male!" when their body is in 'female' configuration, the only way to treat this is to physically alter the body to match the brain. Or vice versa, with female brain wiring and male body. Doing so leaves the body healthy and fully capable of leading a happy life, so it is considered to 'treat' the condition of gender dysphoria.

Now, you seem to be looking at this situation and saying "well, clearly the part of them I can see looks female, so they must be female, so they must be delusional and corrupted and aberrant!" This is superficial and dumb. We can prove that by performing a simple thought experiment: if we transplanted your brain (or your whole head, if you prefer) onto a female version of your body (same genes, X chromosome duplicated)... what would happen?

Would you say that you were now a woman and that any lingering thoughts of masculinity you possessed were an aberration? A genetic anomaly? A corruption?

Or would you want your old body back?

If you'd want your old body back, then obviously there must be something telling you what sex you are, which does not reside between your legs- but rather, between your ears.

And if that switch can be flipped 'male' for you, why can't it be flipped 'male' for someone with two X chromosomes?

And if it is thus flipped... why do they deserve any less respect in their claim to be male than you do?

[Axton]

One thing that stands aside from the general mush he creates by pretending not to understand that "a genetic anomaly" is an accurate description of literally everything about living organisms.

No, it fucking isn't. Are you dim?

The word anomaly denotes that which is not common. If it happens to everyone, it is not, by definition, anomalous. Hands with five digits are not anomalous on human beings. Just one example.

Listen to me: set your identity politics, or your social justice warrior shtick, or whatever the fuck it is that's got your head scrambled like a plate of eggs, aside. You're not dealing with other high school kids here. Okay? So get your shit ironed out and then come back to the grownups, table. Okay? Thanks, pumpkin.

[Alyrium Denryle]

And now he is just taking bits and pieces out of context to build strawmen he can burn.

And anatomical differences in the brain arise from genetic anomaly.

When when the dysphoria is dealt with, that particular problem is gone. Other problems may still be there.

Someone growing oddly tall is generally a result of hyperthyroidism, with similar health-jeopardizing disorders as acromegaly attendant. It is a corruption. It is not the average presentation. it is anomalous.

Anomaly Does Not Equal Corruption.

Also, I was not talking about people who are ill. I was talking about people in the NBA.

That's not what the article concludes. The article concludes that even surgical and hormonal intervention don't relieve the stress and depression which attend this form of dysphoria. It is a neurological perception anomaly. It's not a choice, it's not a lifestyle. It's not an identity, and it's not a "new gender" or an "expansion" in any "gender spectrum." It's a neurological condition.

I read the original fucking paper. Not the article you posted, but the scientific paper it talks about regarding suicide post transition. I also posted a shitload more that show that the depression experienced by people with gender dysphoria is due mostly to people treating them like shit. That does not magically go away post transition.

As for neurological conditions, something is only clinically disordered if it, by itself, causes problems for that person by its nature Clinical depression is a disorder because by its nature it impedes that person's quality of life. Being transgender is no longer disordered post transition. However, a host of other problems that exist as a consequence of living prior to transition can still exist.

I still have lingering problems from shit that happened in my teens (avoidant coping mechanisms and low-grade anxiety). That does not mean my gayness is a mental health problem (the only thing my gayness means is that I am an evolutionary dead-end, unless I help my siblings raise sufficient children to make up for the fitness loss, or I visit a sperm bank). It means people treated me like shit and the psych trauma did not go away by magic when I got to university and that shit was not a problem anymore.

Same thing with transpeople and transition.

How do we treat a file on a hard drive that's corrupted? And no, fuck your fucking quotation marks, it's not "corrupted", it's corrupted. It is an error.

You keep acting as if I'm attaching a moral judgment to that word; I'm not. I'm not devaluing people, I'm accurately describing a genetic condition.

No you are not. I know that, because NO GENETICIST EVER CALLS ANYTHING CORRUPTION. A polymorphism yes, if it is lethal they will call it a deleterious allele or recessive lethal, they might even call something disease-causing, but never corruption. Even without moral connotation, words like "corruption" and "error" both imply intent.

Evolution has no intent. Get that through your skull.

And yes, when you call someone the result of "corruption" you do devalue them, that is what corruption fucking means. There is ALWAYS a moral connotation to corruption as applied to human fucking beings.

[Axton]

You didn't read the part where Alyrium laid this out, did you?

Because he came right out and said, "...Disorders are classified by presentation in the DSM, not by cause." Different things may be "disorders" caused by different things. A disorder caused by genes and a disorder caused by chemical imbalances in the brain (which may or may not have a genetic root cause) get listed side by side.

Name three chemical imbalances in the brain that are not genetically based.

Anorexia and gender dysphoria have some shared symptoms (body dysmorphia). But that doesn't mean they have the same kind of cause or are comparable conditions or should be treated the same way.

Demonstrate why that claim is valid.

For example, physical weakness is a symptom of anemia, and a symptom of muscular dystrophy. You treat anemia with iron supplements. You can't treat muscular dystrophy at all, not really. They're totally different conditions that have nothing in common, but they have the same symptom- weakness.

Apples to oranges. Try. Again.

Anorexia is the result of the mind, as distinct from a specific chunk of the brain, permanently trapped thinking the body is "too fat-" this becomes an idee fixe that will not go away. It is treated by convincing the anorexic person to change their mind- talk therapy can suffice.

Demonstrate that the mind exists independent of the functions of the brain.

[Axton]

And now he is just taking bits and pieces out of context to build strawmen he can burn.

And anatomical differences in the brain arise from genetic anomaly.

When when the dysphoria is dealt with, that particular problem is gone. Other problems may still be there.

And you absolutely refuse to acknowledge the causal connections between the dysmorphia and its attendant effects. How convenient.

Someone growing oddly tall is generally a result of hyperthyroidism, with similar health-jeopardizing disorders as acromegaly attendant. It is a corruption. It is not the average presentation. it is anomalous.

Anomaly Does Not Equal Corruption.

You are wrong.

Also, I was not talking about people who are ill. I was talking about people in the NBA.

I was talking about people who are "oddly tall".

That's not what the article concludes. The article concludes that even surgical and hormonal intervention don't relieve the stress and depression which attend this form of dysphoria. It is a neurological perception anomaly. It's not a choice, it's not a lifestyle. It's not an identity, and it's not a "new gender" or an "expansion" in any "gender spectrum." It's a neurological condition.

I read the original fucking paper. Not the article you posted, but the scientific paper it talks about regarding suicide post transition. I also posted a shitload more that show that the depression experienced by people with gender dysphoria is due mostly to people treating them like shit. That does not magically go away post transition.

And you're confusing correlation with causation. You don't know any more than I do what is causing the depression. It's as likely that my explanation covers it as it is that yours does.

As for neurological conditions, something is only clinically disordered if it, by itself, causes problems for that person by its nature.

People are getting themselves cut on -- mutilated -- to satisfy an itch that even being cut on isn't certainly satisfying. I'd call that assisted self-harm.

[Formless]

Name three chemical imbalances in the brain that are not genetically based.

1. Cocain addiction.
2. Heroin addiction.
3. Alcoholism.
4. Methamphetamine addiction.

Need I go on?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Name three chemical imbalances in the brain that are not genetically based.

Situational depression, addiction, post-partum depression.

Demonstrate why that claim is valid.

The sum total of medical literature on both Anorexia and Gender Dysphoria. They are not treated the same way. Talk therapy works for Anorexics. It does not work with transpeople. There are no anatomical differences in the brains of anorexics compared to controls (not caused by injury due to starvation, anyway), there are sex-reversals in large swaths of the brain anatomy of people who are trans.

Demonstrate that the mind exists independent of the functions of the brain.

God you are an idiot. Anorexia is strictly a cognitive problem. It is a disorder of the conscious mind. It is not a chemical imbalance or an issue of anatomy. It is literally bad thoughts. It is treated with talk therapy (specifically cognitive-behavioral therapy), that is all that is required.

Gender dysphoria is not a cognitive problem. It cannot be treated with cognitive behavioral therapy, that has been tried. It is the result of an anatomical variance.

[Axton]

Name three chemical imbalances in the brain that are not genetically based.

Situational depression, addiction, post-partum depression.

All right, you've named three conditions you contend are not genetically based. Substantiate your claim that they have no genetic indicators.

Demonstrate why that claim is valid.

The sum total of medical literature on both Anorexia and Gender Dysphoria.

I assume you'll cite some sources beyond mass consumption soundbites.

They are not treated the same way. Talk therapy works for Anorexics. It does not work with transpeople.

Cite at least three instances where it has been tried and where it has failed.

There are no anatomical differences in the brains of anorexics compared to controls (not caused by injury due to starvation, anyway), there are sex-reversals in large swaths of the brain anatomy of people who are trans.

Sources.

Demonstrate that the mind exists independent of the functions of the brain.

[/quote]

And now you've just gone into "the soul exists independent of the body" territory. You've just gone into Christer la-la land.

God you are an idiot. Anorexia is strictly a cognitive problem. It is a disorder of the conscious mind. It is not a chemical imbalance or an issue of anatomy.

And again you're claiming that the mind is independent of the brain. Christer-ville. Bullshit.

[Axton]

Name three chemical imbalances in the brain that are not genetically based.

1. Cocain addiction.
2. Heroin addiction.
3. Alcoholism.
4. Methamphetamine addiction.

Need I go on?

Now, which of those are you ascribing to the transgendered? Or, rather, are you claiming that all those who are bipolar are abusing heroin, alcohol, or methamphetamine and that, moreover, the substance abuse in all those cases are why they are bipolar? Because you seem so desperate to claim that the only neurochemical imbalances which have any affect on physical perception are A: external, and B: somehow can't touch body perception.

[Formless]

None. You asked for chemical imbalances of the brain that aren't caused by genetics. That's four such conditions that are caused by ingesting or injecting chemicals into your body. I think I could also get away with suggesting concussions as well, though that depends on your definition of a chemical imbalance so I stuck to addictions which are literally caused by imbalances. I have no idea what you are ranting about, but it makes me wonder if you aren't ingesting some chemicals right now...