The 2016 US Election (Part II)

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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Keith Olbermann has written a rather scathing article castigating the media for not being tough enough on Dickless Donald for the sake of ratings:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/m ... ump-898477
Polarization of news is not new, but its failure to ask the candidate tough questions — the ones that might cause him to refuse to call in to your morning show or provide hours of free TV content — will be the legacy of Campaign 2016.
Despite the Mad Men-quality institutional image campaign the nation has so effectively waged on itself since the middle of the 20th century, we haven't actually destroyed the sacred institution of objective American news media, without which we are lost in this presidential campaign. As the unprecedented specter of Donald John Trump, Supergenius, rises up around us like some orange fog, we are not unequipped to describe and report on him because we have traded our golden tradition of neutrality for a handful of magic point-of-view beans. It's a simple but hidden truth: The news has almost always been like this.

After decades of purges in the newspaper industry, there still are, at this moment, 44 American dailies with the word "Democrat" in their names and 22 more that include "Republican." They are not parts of newspaper chains named after 19th century printing moguls Stan Democrat and Donald John Republican. They are the remnants of what operated without let, hindrance or apology from the founding of the nation until the advent of the FCC (nee Radio Commission) and the equal-time rule of 1927. They are part of the 19th and 20th century partisan press that was considered "fair and balanced" because, during the presidential campaign of 1828, half of it was happily calling challenger Andrew Jackson "the mulatto son of a prostitute" while the other half was calling incumbent President John Quincy Adams a "pimp."


A frequent 'Today' show guest, Trump is allowed to call in to 
the show when most political candidates must appear in person.

The enforced evenhandedness by which radio and later television had to abide or see its money-printing machines unplugged was itself unplugged by the Reagan administration between 1981 and 1987. It had barely lasted 60 years, after which we all slowly but surely went back to calling everybody pimps and sons of prostitutes — with the added color of proclaiming that it was just a darn shame news had to be this way, and it was all the fault of that Ailes guy or that Limbaugh guy or that Olbermann guy.

In fact, in our history, journalistic objectivity has been the aberration, and media advocacy has been the default position — not the other way around. Still, advocacy's return was predicated on a larger notion, which had actually provided the genuine worth of the original golden age of American journalism. The premise was the marketplace of ideas would be so crammed with loud and distinctive voices that the best-presented and most logical would win — or at least balance — out. When that premise fails, we have destroyed a sacred institution of collectively objective American news media. And it has failed (largely, anyway) in living memory, in the fluidly dark times between 9/11 and the Iraq War.

And it may be failing again right now amid the campaign of Donald John Trump.


Trump with Kimmel on May 25.

If all the belching and bellowing voices in that marketplace are in ideological disagreement about Trump or any other candidate real or fantastic, ranging from Hillary Clinton to St. Francis of Assisi, we're fine. It's unintentional but entirely suitable that the phrase "polite political discourse" includes a homophone for the word "coarse." But if these Crank-It-to-11 competitors all find themselves in agreement that Trump, and the coverage of Trump, and the blowback to Trump, and the advertising dollars spent on the coverage of the blowback to Trump, constitute a cash explosion in a dying journalistic ecosystem whose healthiest part had been broadcast and cable news until recently there came a plague of locusts called cord-cutters — then we've got trouble.

Because now you can ask any question about Trump, Trumpism or anti-Trumpism except the existential ones, because the existential ones could lead him to stop calling in to your morning show and providing you with your highest-rated hour for free. You can't go meta on the perfect storm that has thrust up this Howard Beale of presidential candidates. You can't say, "Never mind the politics, what kind of man could boast on national television that he'd just raised $6 million for veterans' groups, then deny he'd ever said 6, then when told his boast is on tape demand that you play it for him, then make it impossible for you to play it for him?"

If he is scheduled to do 20 Trump town halls for you between now and the election, thus saving you about a month's worth of production costs for your average cable news show (a million or two, depending on how much you pay your meat puppet), you don't examine what's going on inside of a man who could first pretend to be his own media spokesman, then boast about his own sexual conquests in the third person, then admit the deception to a reporter, then again admit it on the legal record, then deny it on national television, then when pressed about it by The Washington Post simply hang up the phone.

With their own jobs hanging in the balance, who in the American media of 2016 could invoke not the politics of reproductive rights but question if there's something far more than inconsistency involved when a candidate says he believes women who have abortions should be in some way punished, then weeks later insists he meant they should punish themselves? Or in that environment, who can ask not about religious intolerance but instead what is amiss with the thought process of a candidate whose campaign pivoted from the fringes to a hateful lane in the mainstream the day he insisted Muslims be banned from entering this country, yet who could manage to later seriously claim all that was "just a suggestion"? Or ask what kind of person suggests killing the innocent relatives of suspected terrorists, then throws it away like it was a poorly timed proposal to raise rates at the Fed? Or ask not what kind of Republican would say, but what kind of human would say of the presidency (or anything else) on Aug. 18, "I wanted to do this for myself," and then say on Nov. 20, "I don't want it for myself"?

With the most effective form of self-censorship in play — one not based on ideology nor on a silly harkening back to a neutral past that only briefly existed, but based purely on cash — who will stand up and point at the emperor standing in only a comb-over and ask where in the hell his clothes are?

Or should I not ask that question? You know, because maybe it's not objective. Or it's too objective. I forget which.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Terralthra »

Patroklos wrote:
Terralthra wrote:So? You asked for evidence that she was generally hawkish (favoring military action). That other Democrats (not, worth noting, my representative) were similarly hawkish at the time doesn't make that evidence less meaningful, especially when her primary opponent opposed the AUMF in Iraq, and against extending action in Afghanistan.
Its clear you don't understand what the term hawkish means. It does not mean opposed to war under any circumstances. It means advocating war for the solution of problems that do not warrant it. Only an idiot would consider support for Afghanistan a hawkish position. Fuck, is Chamberlain a hawk to you? I mean, Poland wasn't a territory of Britain at the time. What a warmonger!
You mean like advocating war to remove the dictator of a country just because and eliminate weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist? Fuck off, ignoramus.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Patroklos »

That has what to do with a vote to invade Afghanistan? You know, the vote I am talking about?

Thanks for playing sweetie, better luck next time :)
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Forget Afghanistan. At the end of the day, the meat is Iraq and that I have already explained how the vote went despite people's memories here.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Flagg »

Terralthra wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Terralthra wrote:She also voted in favor of military action in Afghanistan and Iraq.
So did most other Democrats.
So? You asked for evidence that she was generally hawkish (favoring military action). That other Democrats (not, worth noting, my representative) were similarly hawkish at the time doesn't make that evidence less meaningful, especially when her primary opponent opposed the AUMF in Iraq, and against extending action in Afghanistan.
Voting for something doesn't mean she campaigned for it.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Or you know, she could have voted no like other Democrats... It's not like she was forced to or anything like that. Though I certainly am waiting for Lord MJ to come back and tell me what she got in return for that vote.


I will vote for Trump in the general election, but don't worry, I didn't and won't phone bank for him so it's ok! ;)
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Flagg »

Soontir C'boath wrote:Forget Afghanistan. At the end of the day, the meat is Iraq and that I have already explained how the vote went despite people's memories here.
Yeah, the POTUS at the time lied through his teeth and some people didn't believe he would lie us into a war so they voted to authorize it. That's different from actively campaigning for it. Let's also not forget she was senator from NY and the Bush junta did everything they could to link Iraq and 9/11 without saying it outright.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Again, we've already been through this in this thread, they had documents on hand in regards to the possibility of WMDs in Iraq, they just didn't bother to vet it properly.

Also frankly, are you saying it's ok to not vet things as something as important as going to war and just go on the say so of another branch of government? Where's the check and balance in that? Freakin' horrendous implication of our government that we seem willing to accept.
Last edited by Soontir C'boath on 2016-06-02 11:28am, edited 1 time in total.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Flagg »

Soontir C'boath wrote:Or you know, she could have voted no like other Democrats... It's not like she was forced to or anything like that. Though I certainly am waiting for Lord MJ to come back and tell me what she got in return for that vote.


I will vote for Trump in the general election, but don't worry, I didn't and won't phone bank for him so it's ok! ;)
Oh good, then we know that you're as stupid as your arguments and can discount you totally. Unperson.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Flagg wrote:
Soontir C'boath wrote:Or you know, she could have voted no like other Democrats... It's not like she was forced to or anything like that. Though I certainly am waiting for Lord MJ to come back and tell me what she got in return for that vote.


I will vote for Trump in the general election, but don't worry, I didn't and won't phone bank for him so it's ok! ;)
Oh good, then we know that you're as stupid as your arguments and can discount you totally. Unperson.
Concession accepted. You have nothing at all, but bluster. That's all you had all along in your vitriol against Bernie anyway, so I shouldn't have expected anything different.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Purple »

So, what are the odds of big D pulling of a win?
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Flagg »

Soontir C'boath wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Soontir C'boath wrote:Or you know, she could have voted no like other Democrats... It's not like she was forced to or anything like that. Though I certainly am waiting for Lord MJ to come back and tell me what she got in return for that vote.


I will vote for Trump in the general election, but don't worry, I didn't and won't phone bank for him so it's ok! ;)
Oh good, then we know that you're as stupid as your arguments and can discount you totally. Unperson.
Concession accepted. You have nothing at all, but bluster. That's all you had all along in your vitriol against Bernie anyway, so I shouldn't have expected anything different.
Keep telling yourself that. If you clap real hard, Tinkerbell might make it true.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Flagg »

Soontir C'boath wrote:Again, we've already been through this in this thread, they had documents on hand in regards to the possibility of WMDs in Iraq, they just didn't bother to vet it properly.

Also frankly, are you saying it's ok to not vet things as something as important as going to war and just go on the say so of another branch of government? Where's the check and balance in that? Freakin' horrendous implication of our government that we seem willing to accept.
No, I'm saying people, politicians barely being amoung their ranks, make mistakes. I can understand them, forgive them, and move on. If the best case you have for a candidate is a 13 year old vote, that ain't much.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Purple wrote:So, what are the odds of big D pulling of a win?
Some recent polls have had Dickless Donald ahead, but the electoral college math is apparently not great for him.

In other words, he has a chance, which is more than any sane person should feel comfortable with, but its way too early to predict. I mean, its still five months until election day.

Oh, and a staffer who set up and maintained Clinton's server is taking the fifth (even though he already has an immunity deal):

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/01/politics/ ... index.html
Washington (CNN)A former State Department IT specialist who was involved in setting up and maintaining Hillary Clinton's private email server plans to invoke the Fifth Amendment at a deposition next week, refusing to answer "any and all questions that may be put to him."

The move comes even after the staffer, Bryan Pagliano, accepted an immunity deal with the FBI earlier this year and began cooperating with their investigation into the server.
Pagliano was then subpoenaed by the conservative legal watchdog group Judicial Watch to testify as part of an ongoing Freedom of Information Act lawsuit they filed against the State Department. He is one of at least seven witnesses the group is interviewing over the coming weeks in that case.
In a court filing submitted Wednesday in that case, Pagliano's attorneys said their client is now "caught up in a lawsuit with an undisputed political agenda," and asked that the deposition, scheduled to take place on Monday, not be recorded.
Pagliano's attorneys added, "Mr. Pagliano will invoke his right under the Fifth Amendment and decline to testify at the deposition noticed for June 6, 2016."
"Asserting the Fifth Amendment in a civil procedure like this has its implications," Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton told CNN in response to the filing. "We're going to have to grapple with as best we can."
But the group is objecting to Pagliano's request not to be filmed, citing a decision by Judge Emmet Sullivan last week that ensured video from the depositions can't be released to the public.
"Judge Sullivan already put a mechanism in place that addresses these concerns," said Fitton, adding that the video would be "helpful to Judge Sullivan in assessing the witness' demeanor."
Acknowledging Sullivan's order, Pagliano's lawyers said his particular deposition "presents not only privacy considerations, but unique constitutionally protected interests that require relief distinct from the (order)."
A State Department official declined to comment on the case, citing a policy not to address matters under litigation.
Pagliano, who was hired by the State Department after a stint as IT director for Clinton's 2008 presidential campaign, was paid separately by the Clintons to perform work on the server, located at their home in Chappaqua, New York.
He also pled the Fifth last year to avoid answering questions from the House Select Committee on Benghazi -- a congressional panel set up to investigate a 2012 attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Dan Rather weighs in on Trump's relationship with the press:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... ournalism/
Former CBS News anchor Dan Rather has a newsflash for Donald Trump: “The relationship between the press and the powerful they cover is by its very definition confrontational.”

Writing that he “felt a shudder down [his] spine” during Trump’s latest anti-media tirade, Rather responded Wednesday on Facebook with a seven-paragraph post that was partly a rebuttal to the presumptive Republican presidential nominee's criticism and partly a pep talk to fellow journalists.

[Donald Trump is dead wrong about the ‘sleaze’ media]

Rather wrote:

Attacking the press for unfair coverage has long been a bipartisan pursuit. Sometimes it works. I am happy to say that more often it doesn't. But Trump's brand of vituperation is particularly personal and vicious. It carries with it the drumbeats of threatening violence. It cannot be left unanswered.

This is not about politics or policy. It's about protecting our most cherished principles. The relationship between the press and the powerful they cover is by its very definition confrontational. That is how the Founding Fathers envisioned it, with noble clauses of protection enshrined in our Constitution.

Good journalism — the kind that matters — requires reporters who won't back up, back down, back away or turn around when faced with efforts to intimidate them. It also requires owners and other bosses with guts, who stand by and for their reporters when the heat is on.

There are some familiar themes in there: the violent overtones of Trump’s rhetoric, the need for journalists to be gutsy, the sanctity of the First Amendment. You’re forgiven for thinking, “I’ve heard it all before.” And some folks — conservatives, in particular — automatically discount anything Rather says because of the flawed report on President George W. Bush's National Guard service that preceded his resignation.

But Rather’s argument that reporters are supposed to be confrontational is worth paying attention to. Because Trump disagrees. He really seems to think journalists shouldn’t ask tough questions.

[Media scrutiny over charitable donations to veterans riles up Trump]

The Trump riff that prompted Rather’s Facebook post was about journalists checking up on his claim of a $6 million donation to charities for veterans. This was Trump’s complaint to Sean Hannity on Tuesday night: "It was a horrible experience with the press. I mean, they were questioning it — did he really raise the money? Where is the money?"

To review: Presidential candidate makes claim. Media checks to see whether claim is true. Candidate calls this most basic of processes a “horrible experience.”



What’s more, Trump also seems to think he won’t have any more of these experiences if elected president. Here’s what his spokeswoman, Katrina Pierson, told CNN’s Chris Cuomo on Wednesday when Cuomo asked whether Trump’s media bashing indicates a problem with his temperament.

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Many of the reporters know the facts but choose to write horrible stories about him or portray him in a negative light. And that is not going to happen when Mr. Trump is president because we will have the available resources to put out to the American public where the policies of the past have failed and what we want to do. So it's not going to get to the point of a temperament question because the people are going to be behind Mr. Trump.

Got that? Journalists might portray Trump in a negative light now, but that won’t happen when he’s in the White House. His temperament won’t be an issue because the media won’t provoke him.

Here we have a perfect encapsulation of why the Trump-media dynamic is so volatile. The two sides have wildly different expectations.


Journalists generally believe it is their job to hold Trump accountable for the things he says, testing whether his statements hold up. But Trump thinks journalists shouldn’t put him through the “horrible experience” of questioning what he says.

As long as there is such a fundamental disagreement about the function of the press, more friction is sure to follow.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Edi »

Just as a note, keep the Bernie vs Hillary conversation either civil, or keep it right out of this thread. I've had complaints, and if I need to come in here with the Moderator Machete to chop out parts of this thread into a separate one because of it, I will not be amused.

I just don't have the time to review the past few pages of the thread now, so that will have to wait until the weekend. Given that I work on Saturday, I won't have that much free time, so I would prefer not to have to use it on forum drama here.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Flagg »

Edi wrote:Just as a note, keep the Bernie vs Hillary conversation either civil, or keep it right out of this thread. I've had complaints, and if I need to come in here with the Moderator Machete to chop out parts of this thread into a separate one because of it, I will not be amused.

I just don't have the time to review the past few pages of the thread now, so that will have to wait until the weekend. Given that I work on Saturday, I won't have that much free time, so I would prefer not to have to use it on forum drama here.
I'll stop, because it's gone uncivil and I've played my part. But TBH I don't think either side has crossed the line that moderator review is necessary in the past week and a half, give or take. Obviously not my call on mod review, just my 2 cents.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Dominus Atheos »

I was the one who PMed Edi and I actually just wanted a separate Bernie VS Hillary thread since (unfortunately) Hillary has clearly won the nomination, and the only discussion relevant to "The 2016 US Election" now is Hillary vs Trump. Discussion of Hillary as the democratic nominee should be in a separate thread.

Mostly I just disagree with the concept of a sticky thread for a topic as broad as an entire election year covering primaries, the general, the House, the Senate, Govenerships, and all state races. Not to mention all the many many issues involved in all those elections. That's too many topics for one thread, there should be separate threads for each issue as needed, and discussions on new topics should be split out to their own thread.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Elheru Aran »

I think the Federal Election can cover a fairly broad discussion, and nobody cares THAT much about the state election or Congressional elections-- it's always all about the Presidential elections when it's one of those years.

That said, I find a second thread reasonable if someone wants to cover the less important elections as well. Those do merit discussion as they help one understand how the balance of power might shift, party-wise.

I do think that Bernie has a place in this discussion until he eventually drops out, though. It may be a reasonably safe assumption that Clinton will win the nomination, but I wouldn't count one's chickens until the day after the convention. It's been that kind of interesting election.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Leaving aside that Bernie could technically win, however unlikely it may be, arguing that Bernie's campaign shouldn't be included in the election thread when he is still running is absolutely ridiculous. Its still part of the election news, and therefore relevant (especially since Bernie's campaign potentially has bearing on the general election, the Democratic party platform, and the Democratic convention). That's not even a pro-Bernie position. Its "Like it or not, Bernie's campaign is part of the election news, relevant to the topic, and trying to push it out of the discussion is therefore preposterous."

I would actually like to see more discussion of state and Congressional elections, though. That shit matters, much more than the attention it gets would suggest.

After all, no President- not Clinton, not Sanders, and not Dickless Donald- will be able to accomplish much without a sympathetic Congress.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Flagg »

Saying "Sanders has a mathematical possibility" of winning is like saying "Apophis has a mathematical possibility" of striking the Earth in 11 years. We are dealing with likelihoods at this point, and Sanders is done, stick a fork in him. He's essentially the black knight in Monty Python.

Though I don't see why we can't comment on any new developments, like his concession.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Even if it was mathematically impossible for him to win, his campaign would still, I would think, fall under relevant election news, especially when he's maneuvering for convention/platform influence and weather enough of Bernie's supporters can be won over by Clinton would have a very real effect on her chances in the general election.

I mean, I neither like the Libertarian Party nor think they have a remotely plausible chance of winning, but if someone wanted to post about Gary Johnson here, I'd have absolutely no problem with that because it is relevant to the topic (and could conceivably effect the general election via taking votes from other candidates).

Edit: I mean, obviously, its not my call. Its the moderators/admins'. I just don't get your reasoning here.
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Flagg »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Even if it was mathematically impossible for him to win, his campaign would still, I would think, fall under relevant election news, especially when he's maneuvering for convention/platform influence and weather enough of Bernie's supporters can be won over by Clinton would have a very real effect on her chances in the general election.

I mean, I neither like the Libertarian Party nor think they have a remotely plausible chance of winning, but if someone wanted to post about Gary Johnson here, I'd have absolutely no problem with that because it is relevant to the topic (and could conceivably effect the general election via taking votes from other candidates).
Like I said, I don't see why we can't comment on new events. Mostly we've been debating/arguing/shit flinging ( :lol: ) over past events. So I'm agreeing with you. I know, hell is icy. :P
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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by Mr Bean »

The reason for the election sticky is both as a historical thing to get the in the moment thoughts of the board as the election goes on... and to prevent N&P getting 10 election related threads a day. We've been average six posts a day for over a year now so it seems to be working.

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Re: The 2016 US Election (Part II)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

While everyone's focusing on Clinton's legal troubles, its worth remembering that Dickless Donald has his own legal problems closing in on him.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016 ... ent-scheme
Some of the harshest critics of Trump University have been revealed to be former employees of the now-defunct university majority-owned by Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican US presidential candidate.


Trump University 'playbooks' offer glimpse of ruthless business practices
Read more
In sworn testimony, three former staff members have described the real estate school as “a facade, a total lie” and a “fraudulent scheme” that “preyed upon the elderly and uneducated to separate them from their money”.

In extracts from their evidence to a class-action lawsuit against the school, made public this week, the former staff tell the inside story of the “front-end high-pressure speaker scam” at Trump University.

Ronald Schnackenberg, who worked at Trump University’s headquarters on Wall Street between 2006 and 2007, said he felt compelled to resign because he thought the company was “engaging in misleading, fraudulent and dishonest conduct”.
There's more to the article, but its a little long.

So this is the state of our politics- a race to see who's going to get nailed by the law first. :banghead:
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