A bunch of 40k Imperials on a Starfleet ship in the Trekverse (RAR!)

[Lord Revan]

I checked from one of main rule books I got and it could alpha or gamma (Earth is at Alpha/Beta Quadrant border or close enough that it wouldn't matter in galaxy scale map or at least that's where all the sources that remember that Beta Quadrant exists put it) I mean the highest number we got space explored for UFP is 19% of the Milky Way and we have to assume that includes sizeble chunks of the Beta Quadrant as well, starting from the fact that the Excelsior was doing exploration missions there in TUC (possibly the Enterprise as well but we can't tell for sure as that bit was added only to appease Shatner's ego). Also that area is what is explored not what is colonizied by UFP.

It's kind of hard to say where exactly the Eldar homeworld would be as we have only a really rough estimate of its location (somewhere in the Eye of Terror presumebly close to or at the centre), either way it would be in a spot that's largely unexplored by any major ST power.

Also as I stated the Eldar Civilization might not be that powerful (yet).

[NecronLord]

It is millions of years old. Discussion in this context has no value though.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

I checked from one of main rule books I got and it could alpha or gamma (Earth is at Alpha/Beta Quadrant border or close enough that it wouldn't matter in galaxy scale map or at least that's where all the sources that remember that Beta Quadrant exists put it) I mean the highest number we got space explored for UFP is 19% of the Milky Way and we have to assume that includes sizeble chunks of the Beta Quadrant as well, starting from the fact that the Excelsior was doing exploration missions there in TUC (possibly the Enterprise as well but we can't tell for sure as that bit was added only to appease Shatner's ego). Also that area is what is explored not what is colonizied by UFP.

It's kind of hard to say where exactly the Eldar homeworld would be as we have only a really rough estimate of its location (somewhere in the Eye of Terror presumebly close to or at the centre), either way it would be in a spot that's largely unexplored by any major ST power.

Also as I stated the Eldar Civilization might not be that powerful (yet).

Eye Of Terror is in the Gothic Sector, which is in Segmentum Obscurus, which is to the Galatic North of Terra. As stated, I just compared quadrants from the map in Memory Alpha with segementae from the map in Lexicanum.

But, since this can't possibly be 40K's M3, it really doesn't matter. Moving right along....

[Simon_Jester]

Clearly there has to be some common tech between the Warp Drive of M3 and M41. Though the question is how much? It could be the difference between a steam engine and nuclear turbine. Similar in many respects but woefully different technologies. The Trek Warp Drive could be primitive enough to be useless at reverse engineering into a proper Warp Drive.

Star Trek warp drive is just about equal in performance to Imperium warp drive, though- the fastest Imperial ships still take years to cross the galaxy as a rule, with at most extremely rare exceptions.

Presumably when a Trek vessel activates its warp field creating a subspace bubble, the bubble is like a pocket of the warp that is used to skim along the surface rather then diving in fully much like Tau do.....or did. Doing some research there seems to be some debate as to whether or not the Tau still even have FTL.

Even the Imperium couldn't fail to conquer them if they don't have FTL travel at all, honestly. Their forces in each star system would be hopelessly isolated and cut off from each other.

Why?

Its insane in a good way, like the theories about Doom or Event Horizon being prequels to 40k. Trek being the past of 40k, the Vulcans being the Eldar, the Rommies being Dark Eldar, and somewhere the Emperor is farting about changing crap in the shadows (probably running Section 31) is just insanely awesome.

If I was still into writing fan fics I'd love to take a crack at the concept.

The problematic bits are:

1) It makes a total and hideous farce out of the Star Trek side of the continuity; Star Trek is really intended as an optimistic setting for a reason and there's a certain odor of... false-mature, adolescent delight in 'spoiling' that aim toward a bright future with "it all ends in GRIM DARKNESS."

2) On the 40k side of the continuity, the Eldar have a very long history and they know their origins, they were a starfaring race long before humanity emerged on the interstellar scene. Humanity might well have forgotten its history of cooperation with other races. And it might have turned against other races we see in Star Trek, or absorbed them and interbred with them until they no longer exist as separate entities*... the Eldar, specifically, would remember. Moreover, it is highly unlikely that the Vulcans or the Romulans would develop the kind of hyperactive mythology involved in the Eldar racial origins (such as an entire pantheon of gods).

*The Betazoids are prime candidates for this, since Star Trek humans are largely non-psychic while Warhammer humans are very much psychic.

[NecronLord]

Star Trek warp drive is just about equal in performance to Imperium warp drive, though- the fastest Imperial ships still take years to cross the galaxy as a rule, with at most extremely rare exceptions.

Not that rare. Chartist ships are slow. Ships with navigators are much faster. For a recent example at the other end of the scale, crossing 1/3rd of the galaxy takes 14 days for an imperial navy battlegroup during the Beast's War in M32 (The Beast Arises: The Emperor Expects) and this is considered slow going for segmentum solar's ships. Space marines like the Ultras manage to strike across the galaxy in the same year, with ease.

Even the Imperium couldn't fail to conquer them if they don't have FTL travel at all, honestly. Their forces in each star system would be hopelessly isolated and cut off from each other.

From having been to Games Day and WH Fest, I am informed by several writers that there is one specific guy in the HQ that is determined to eliminate all non-warp, non-webway FTL from the setting. This is anecdote, but is the reason given by writers when this is questioned; new material contradicts old (for instance some of the latest published necron lore has inertialess drives again) but hey ho. He's not going away (he's in a very secure job there) and will keep shitting on common sense like this for the forseeable future.

Other writers then ressurect the other FTL systems intermittently.

[Joun_Lord]

Star Trek warp drive is just about equal in performance to Imperium warp drive, though- the fastest Imperial ships still take years to cross the galaxy as a rule, with at most extremely rare exceptions.

Maybe equal to the Imperium drive in M41 but if I remember correctly Warp travel during "calmer" times is considerably easier and faster. The current Warp is hard to navigate even with the Astronomicon meaning any Warp travel has to be done in relatively short jumps because of the hazards of long jumps. The "tides" of the Warp, Warp storms, and other hazards make travel even slower.

Books set around the Horus Heresy describe much faster and easier trips. The Eisenstein planned to jump from Istvann in Segmentum Obscurus to Terra in Segmentum Solar in apparently one trip (not that they did mind you but they intended to, nobody can plan for Papa Nurgle).

Here's a link to a map of the galaxy. http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/war ... 0121215145

It doesn't say where Istvann is but one can assume that it was pretty far out considering it was supposed to be found late in the Crusade but even if its right at the beginning of the sector that is still a pretty long jump from it to Terra

Even the Imperium couldn't fail to conquer them if they don't have FTL travel at all, honestly. Their forces in each star system would be hopelessly isolated and cut off from each other.

I didn't say it didn't make sense but thats GW writers for you. The justification is they have some sort of impulse reactors allowing them to reach near lightspeed and their empire is very compact so they don't need FTL probably. Or they get the Kroot to give them a lift.

And I thought the Imperium did try to conquer the Tau but a bigass Warp Storm got in the way. Kinda hard to conquer someone when writer fiat......I mean nature or the Ruinous Powers intervene.

Pretty much everything about the Tau in my opinion was stupid so I guess the writers dicking around with their FTL are just keeping a Games Workshop tradition alive.

The problematic bits are:

1) It makes a total and hideous farce out of the Star Trek side of the continuity; Star Trek is really intended as an optimistic setting for a reason and there's a certain odor of... false-mature, adolescent delight in 'spoiling' that aim toward a bright future with "it all ends in GRIM DARKNESS."

2) On the 40k side of the continuity, the Eldar have a very long history and they know their origins, they were a starfaring race long before humanity emerged on the interstellar scene. Humanity might well have forgotten its history of cooperation with other races. And it might have turned against other races we see in Star Trek, or absorbed them and interbred with them until they no longer exist as separate entities*... the Eldar, specifically, would remember. Moreover, it is highly unlikely that the Vulcans or the Romulans would develop the kind of hyperactive mythology involved in the Eldar racial origins (such as an entire pantheon of gods).

*The Betazoids are prime candidates for this, since Star Trek humans are largely non-psychic while Warhammer humans are very much psychic.

Trek was intended as optimistic but I personally don't think it was. Humanity seemed so stuck up, so pig headed and full of themselves. They had been brainwashed......sorry EVOLVED past their base instincts and a bunch of other crap. It always seemed like a bunch of crap that humanity was better in Trek, that they had evolved. They seemed like the same violent idiots we've always been but because they lived in some paradise where their bellies are full and they can act all superior because they don't have to fight, work, or do anything but push a button to survive. It's easy to be a saint in paradise.

The Eldar get the shit kicked the crap out of when Slaneesh was born. Its not a stretch to think they might have lost knowledge when that happened. Its not even a stretch to think they might have suppressed information too. The Eldar wouldn't be cool with the knowledge they were once friends of the "mon-keigh", that they worked together and bred with them anymore then the Imperium would be.

The Rommies and the Vulcans could develop into the Eldar and later Dark Eldar during the many thousands of years after the events of Trek. They could unify and over the time the emotional "corruption" of the Romulans creating the society of the Eldar that would birth Slaanesh. The Vulcans after so many centuries of denying their vices in particular would be susceptible to allure of the pleasures, the agonies and ecstasies, that brought about the Fall of the Elfdar.

As to the fact the Eldar have ruled the galaxy for millions of years, since before man walked upright, could be a lie. The Eldar are vain assholes who try to act all high and might compared to lesser races especially humanity. They seem the type that would make up bullshit and inflate their history to make themselves seem better.

While humans were still learning to spell their names the Eldar were being trained to conquer galaxies!!!!

As for human psychics, there have been evidence of psychic's being relatively commonplace among humanity. During Kirks time they tested for ESP among Starfleet and among the Enterprises crew of 205 atleast 11 people had some psychic abilities.

Most people with some psychic touch probably aren't going to have any overt signs just the same as most people even in Warhammer 40k have no overt signs of being psychic despite every human save blanks having atleast a psychic connection to the Emperor and the Warp.

[Simon_Jester]

Star Trek warp drive is just about equal in performance to Imperium warp drive, though- the fastest Imperial ships still take years to cross the galaxy as a rule, with at most extremely rare exceptions.

Not that rare. Chartist ships are slow. Ships with navigators are much faster. For a recent example at the other end of the scale, crossing 1/3rd of the galaxy takes 14 days for an imperial navy battlegroup during the Beast's War in M32 (The Beast Arises: The Emperor Expects) and this is considered slow going for segmentum solar's ships. Space marines like the Ultras manage to strike across the galaxy in the same year, with ease.

That's a fair point. Thing is, that's not an advantage of Imperium warp drive per se, that's an advantage of navigators, in the context of the 40k Warp, where ships can theoretically arrive before they depart. So it's entirely possible that the only reason ships with navigators can travel so fast is because the navigators are selectively steering the ship into time warps and so forth that optimize their travel time by 'cheating' the normal physics of the Warp (insofar as the term 'physics of the Warp' even means anything).

Since there are no members of the Navis Nobilite present in this scenario, and the Navigators are genetically unique rather than being something you can easily duplicate with technology, that is an advantage our little clutch of Imperialists cannot duplicate.

Even the Imperium couldn't fail to conquer them if they don't have FTL travel at all, honestly. Their forces in each star system would be hopelessly isolated and cut off from each other.

From having been to Games Day and WH Fest, I am informed by several writers that there is one specific guy in the HQ that is determined to eliminate all non-warp, non-webway FTL from the setting. This is anecdote, but is the reason given by writers when this is questioned; new material contradicts old (for instance some of the latest published necron lore has inertialess drives again) but hey ho. He's not going away (he's in a very secure job there) and will keep shitting on common sense like this for the forseeable future.

Other writers then ressurect the other FTL systems intermittently.

Then I will ignore that one idiot- he cannot very well create a situation where the Tau have, then don't have, then have, then don't have, FTL travel. No stupidity of an author can require me to believe a logical impossibility.

Maybe equal to the Imperium drive in M41 but if I remember correctly Warp travel during "calmer" times is considerably easier and faster. The current Warp is hard to navigate even with the Astronomicon meaning any Warp travel has to be done in relatively short jumps because of the hazards of long jumps. The "tides" of the Warp, Warp storms, and other hazards make travel even slower.

Books set around the Horus Heresy describe much faster and easier trips...

Now THAT is a good point. Then again, it's not clear whether the psychoactive Warp even works properly in the absence of trillions of psychically aware beings in the 40k Milky Way.

Trek was intended as optimistic but I personally don't think it was. Humanity seemed so stuck up, so pig headed and full of themselves. They had been brainwashed......sorry EVOLVED past their base instincts and a bunch of other crap. It always seemed like a bunch of crap that humanity was better in Trek, that they had evolved. They seemed like the same violent idiots we've always been but because they lived in some paradise where their bellies are full and they can act all superior because they don't have to fight, work, or do anything but push a button to survive. It's easy to be a saint in paradise.

Honestly, people in TNG-era Trek never seem brainwashed to me. They seem quite normal... only, on average, a bit more tolerant, a bit less inclined to shoot first and ask questions later. A bit smarter, better capable of mastering technology, philosophy, art, and culture. A bit healthier, a bit stronger.

A little better. Which is exactly what I'd expect, in an optimistic setting that's only 350 years or so in the future. We in the developed world in many ways better than our ancestors of 1650, who slaughtered each other over trivial religious differences, who enslaved other races on their planet, who were trapped in a swamp of poverty and disease and chaos, among whom the elite habitually abused power even worse than we're used to today.

But we're not a different order of being today than we were then. It's the same DNA, the same basic impulses, just a little more tamed, a little more civilized, a little more tempered by enlightened self-interest. And you can argue, yes, that we're mostly 'better' because higher technology gives us the luxury of being more refined and gracious to each other.

So it makes perfect sense to me that in an optimistic setting, the 2370s are portrayed as a time when people are still people, but whose technology allows them comfort and refinement above what we manage on average today. Who have learned lessons we still struggle with today, but who have learned them imperfectly (just as we have learned the lessons of the Enlightenment imperfectly).

That's what progress looks like. You have to earn your utopia, it takes time and it won't be perfect for a very long time, if ever.

The Eldar get the shit kicked the crap out of when Slaneesh was born. Its not a stretch to think they might have lost knowledge when that happened. Its not even a stretch to think they might have suppressed information too. The Eldar wouldn't be cool with the knowledge they were once friends of the "mon-keigh", that they worked together and bred with them anymore then the Imperium would be.

The Rommies and the Vulcans could develop into the Eldar and later Dark Eldar during the many thousands of years after the events of Trek. They could unify and over the time the emotional "corruption" of the Romulans creating the society of the Eldar that would birth Slaanesh. The Vulcans after so many centuries of denying their vices in particular would be susceptible to allure of the pleasures, the agonies and ecstasies, that brought about the Fall of the Elfdar.

As to the fact the Eldar have ruled the galaxy for millions of years, since before man walked upright, could be a lie. The Eldar are vain assholes who try to act all high and might compared to lesser races especially humanity. They seem the type that would make up bullshit and inflate their history to make themselves seem better.

Thaaaat is a fair point.

As for human psychics, there have been evidence of psychic's being relatively commonplace among humanity. During Kirks time they tested for ESP among Starfleet and among the Enterprises crew of 205 atleast 11 people had some psychic abilities.

Most people with some psychic touch probably aren't going to have any overt signs just the same as most people even in Warhammer 40k have no overt signs of being psychic despite every human save blanks having atleast a psychic connection to the Emperor and the Warp.

Hm... I don't know. I mean, we almost never see any human exhibit psychic powers that I can recall- I'm consulting the wikis, and all I can find in terms of human psychics is...

-One telepath in TOS
-Individuals altered by exotic forces (Gary Mitchell, Charlie Evans, also from TOS)
-Individuals who have been genetically modified (at least one episode of TNG)

To be fair, psychics are rare one-in-a-million or perhaps one-in-a-thousand things in Warhammer 40000, too... But I like the idea that if Trek DID evolve into 40k somehow, at least one of the mechanisms by which many of the Trek races disappeared from the scene may have been interbreeding, since we know that can happen and would tend to happen to a considerable extent over thousands of years of time, especially with easy interstellar travel.

It also helps to explain how humans in 40k seem in many ways stronger and tougher than is typical for humans as a whole today, They're actually a genetically hybridized 'construct,' not pure-strain Earthlings.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

-One telepath in TOS
-Individuals altered by exotic forces (Gary Mitchell, Charlie Evans, also from TOS)
-Individuals who have been genetically modified (at least one episode of TNG)

I believe J_L was referring specifically to the survey for esper abilities amongst the crew Spock ran in "Where No Man Has Gone Before," which is how the crew found out what had affected Mitchell and how. Though those 11 didn't have the ability, IIRC, just the potential for those abilities.

(if memory serves, 9 of those 11 were killed outright by exposure to the Great Barrier. Or was it 10 and Dahner did not turn up in Spock's initial search?).

The telepath you're referring to is Doctor Miranda Jones from "Is There In Truth, No Beauty?" correct? It seemed her ability developed as compensation for her being blind, or that was how it was explained.

There was also "Plato's Stepchildren," where Kirk and Co. temporarily developed psychic powers(telekinesis)by injecting themselves with magic fruit extract. I much prefer to forget that entire episode even existed, quite honestly.

Equally as forgettable was Mira Head of Lettuce in "The Lights Of Zetar" who was considered highly susceptible to psychic influence(highly pliant was how it was put).

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Maybe equal to the Imperium drive in M41 but if I remember correctly Warp travel during "calmer" times is considerably easier and faster.

Except, again, ST warp drives work(at least according to the latest Prime Universe retcon) by travelling inside a warped spacetime bubble of subspace being dragged through normal space and otherwise interacting with it. A 40K Warp drive disappears from the Materium(normal space)and completely enters the Immaterium. The drives are incompatible as a jet engine is with a Cummins diesel.

Then I will ignore that one idiot- he cannot very well create a situation where the Tau have, then don't have, then have, then don't have, FTL travel. No stupidity of an author can require me to believe a logical impossibility.

However, as NecronLord stated this one idiot is very securely placed in Games Workshop, and in a position to make decisions related to the lore. Think of him as the Micheal Grade* of GW.

*the current BBC chief who was instrumental in getting the originial Doctor Who axed because he personally didn't like it.

[Simon_Jester]

I believe J_L was referring specifically to the survey for esper abilities amongst the crew Spock ran in "Where No Man Has Gone Before," which is how the crew found out what had affected Mitchell and how. Though those 11 didn't have the ability, IIRC, just the potential for those abilities.

Well yes- point being, "esper rating" does not mean "has psychic ability" in the sense that 40k psykers do. That said, his point is well taken- Star Trek, especially in the 60s-era original series, does explicitly include the idea that humanity has psychic potential, even if this potential is virtually never actualized. That was common in SF of the '60s and '70s, back before the parapsychology researchers turned out to be hoaxsters and when New Age ideas about cultivating human potential to achieve mystical or preternatural abilities seemed less out-there and more plausible.

The telepath you're referring to is Doctor Miranda Jones from "Is There In Truth, No Beauty?" correct? It seemed her ability developed as compensation for her being blind, or that was how it was explained.

Yes.

There was also "Plato's Stepchildren," where Kirk and Co. temporarily developed psychic powers(telekinesis)by injecting themselves with magic fruit extract. I much prefer to forget that entire episode even existed, quite honestly.

Hey, first interracial kiss between fictional characters on TV and all.

But more seriously, I didn't see that in my references and I wouldn't count it because it was a temporary ability you get by injecting a drug. Apparently yet another one of those one-off things, because nobody else ever tries gaining telekinetic powers by taking drugs as far as I know.

Equally as forgettable was Mira Head of Lettuce in "The Lights Of Zetar" who was considered highly susceptible to psychic influence(highly pliant was how it was put).

That doesn't mean she's psychic, heck, it could mean she is actively antipsychic. Or it could be a trait of her psychological makeup independent of mental abilities.

Factoid learned while looking up that episode- it was written by Shari from Lamb Chop.

Then I will ignore that one idiot- he cannot very well create a situation where the Tau have, then don't have, then have, then don't have, FTL travel. No stupidity of an author can require me to believe a logical impossibility.

However, as NecronLord stated this one idiot is very securely placed in Games Workshop, and in a position to make decisions related to the lore. Think of him as the Micheal Grade* of GW.

Yes, I get that. He can go on making decisions related to the lore, and I will go on ignoring his dumb opinions.

[Zor]

The 40k guys are going to downright baffled on just how calm the Immaterium is assuming they can cobble together a proper War Drive.

No possibility exists of this. None, nada, zip zilch nil nothing.

Warp Drives require the mass resources of a forge world to build one. The most secret and sacred of knowledge. The rarest of physical resources. Billions of tech thralls toiling to purify the materials, the most exalted of archmagi veneratus to build them.

The Lathes, a trio of three extremely producive forge worlds, assembles a few warp drives per year.

That's like thinking Picard can build an anti-matter reactor and warp drive if landed in Westeros.

Can I have a source for that?

Zor

[NecronLord]

Thank you for finally putting this in the right place.

Now, which aspect in particular troubles you? There's three points there:

1. That only Archmagi have that knowledge.
2. That only Forge Worlds produce warp drives.
3. That a forge world typically only produces 'a few' per annum.

Which of those is your question actually about?

[Zor]

Thank you for finally putting this in the right place.

Now, which aspect in particular troubles you? There's three points there:

1. That only Archmagi have that knowledge.
2. That only Forge Worlds produce warp drives.
3. That a forge world typically only produces 2 or 3 per annum.

Which of those is your question actually about?

All three of them, but the last more than most.

Also sorry I i was being a jerk.

Zor

[NecronLord]

#1 is supposition, and a narrative description of the difficulty of labour in the Imperium, I am aware of no single source, but given that even Land Raiders can only be produced on a forgeworld under the supervision of an archmagos it is hardly unlikely. The billions of tech thralls remark is I think reasonably easy to establish simply by examining any description of a Forge World; Imperial manufacture and heavy industry is labour intensive in a way that simply won't do for Star Trek economies.

#2 is from Battlefleet Gothic p. 104. It lists four sources of ships, forge worlds, imperial naval yards, recovery from hulks, and production by planetary governors. Of these three, only naval yards and forge worlds produce in bulk, and as far as I recall, descriptions of naval yards imply they receive shipments from forge worlds of the most advanced components.

#3 is easily obtained by deduction;

1. The merchant fleet of the Imperium, and Imperial Navy combine to a total of around 11 million void capable ships. (Space Fleet, Battlefleet Gothic, Rogue Trader RPG)
2. The average imperial ship remains in imperial service for around 100 years at least.
3. The bottleneck on void-ship production is warp drives and gellar fields.

#3a is comparatively well sourced, I can link original quotes there, and is consistant with the idea that many worlds have a merchant vessel prescence but not a navy prescence at any given mind.

#3b is implicit in the ages given for the ships, rarely is a ship younger than a century presented and they are often far older. Assuming a churn time for all vessels in the imperium of 100 years is a little conservative, though a churn obviously does exist.

#3c is implicit in Battlefleet Gothic, and Space Fleet, which both explicitly describe system ships as common and much cheaper than warp driven ships, despite otherwise featuring all the same things (plasma drives, shields, etc). Churn among merchant ships could well be higher due to the actions of pirates, etc.

11 million ships churning every century gives 110,000 new ships per annum across the imperium. Assuming those are produced by 5000 forge worlds (every sector ever presented by GW has at least one forge world, 200 world approx sectors of the million world imperium gives at least five thousand forge worlds) producing 22 new-build ships a year.

That's a conservative figure, but the methodology you plug in will yield something similar - most sectors have more than one forge world, and so forth.

This 22 per annum ignores that some forge worlds (Voss for instance) will specialise in ship production and others will neglect it, so it's not in any way a cap on a given forge world.

The Lathes quote was a reference to somewhere in Dark Heresy The Lathe Worlds that describes it having dozens of ships produced over dozens of years, that aspect is from memory.