Steve Rogers is now a Nazi

[Simon_Jester]

What I mean is the 'mercenary attitude,' namely the attitude of 'good or bad doesn't matter, as long as the money comes in.'

This attitude is in tension with the customary 'artistic' viewpoint that art should be of good merit, independent of (or in order to maximize) its sales figures.

It is fairly likely that "Hail Hydra" will create a short term surge of interest in and attention to the Captain America IP. It is unlikely that this will have long term beneficial effects on the viability of that IP.

[Gandalf]

Stuff like this is a good argument or rebooting everything every few years. I like the idea of fascistic Captain America, who thinks that Roosevelt is an damn socialist and that Mussolini had the right idea. But shoehorning it into existing continuity seems... awkward.

But hey, why not try? Worst case scenario, it's terrible and we move on with our lives.

[Grumman]

Stuff like this is a good argument or rebooting everything every few years. I like the idea of fascistic Captain America, who thinks that Roosevelt is an damn socialist and that Mussolini had the right idea. But shoehorning it into existing continuity seems... awkward.

That's a good argument against rebooting everything every few years. If you want to write about a fascist American supersoldier then make your own damn character, instead of trading on the good name of a character that is the polar opposite of yours.

[Simon_Jester]

I think it's a good argument for Elseworlds-type stuff, personally- because "fascist Cap" who is still Cap, still believes in loyalty and patriotism and won't sell out his own country, is interesting enough to be worth exploring for a few episodes... But he probably isn't interesting enough to carry a comic book series for several years.

That's the difference between a gimmick and a serious alternate character interpretation, in my opinion.

But as noted, yes, it is not a good reason to reboot a mainstream character, because that is in some sense saying "oh, now this man whose entire reputation is largely based on his upholding freedom against tyranny, turns out to secretly be pro-tyranny." That spits on the background of the character, and the background of the character is why anyone bothers reading the strip.

[ArmorPierce]

Stuff like this is a good argument or rebooting everything every few years. I like the idea of fascistic Captain America, who thinks that Roosevelt is an damn socialist and that Mussolini had the right idea. But shoehorning it into existing continuity seems... awkward.

But hey, why not try? Worst case scenario, it's terrible and we move on with our lives.

Yup, from what I've read they wanted to experiment with a contemporary Donald Trump version of Captain America.

[NeoGoomba]

I think it's a good argument for Elseworlds-type stuff, personally- because "fascist Cap" who is still Cap, still believes in loyalty and patriotism and won't sell out his own country, is interesting enough to be worth exploring for a few episodes... But he probably isn't interesting enough to carry a comic book series for several years.

That's the difference between a gimmick and a serious alternate character interpretation, in my opinion.
.[/i]

Yeah I'd love to see a "Red Son"-type miniseries where the "true" Captain America walks down another path due to some events happening differently. That way you can still get the core of Steve Rogers just forced through a different lens, like Soviet Superman. Plus as a miniseries we get a beginning, middle, and end, so the story stays fresh enough to readers.

[hunter5]

Stuff like this is a good argument or rebooting everything every few years. I like the idea of fascistic Captain America, who thinks that Roosevelt is an damn socialist and that Mussolini had the right idea. But shoehorning it into existing continuity seems... awkward.

That's a good argument against rebooting everything every few years. If you want to write about a fascist American supersoldier then make your own damn character, instead of trading on the good name of a character that is the polar opposite of yours.

I thought they already did that with Nuke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuke_(Marvel_Comics)

[Simon_Jester]

Nuke is a lunatic.

Fascist!Cap would hopefully be more levelheaded.

[Sidewinder]

Someone just sent a death threat to Tom Brevoort, an editor at Marvel Comics. MundaneMatt has commented on this.

[mr friendly guy]

That marine who sent a death threat is fucked up. And that was before the death threat part in his letter. Its the same bullshit as Christians used, only substitute Captain America for Jesus. He needed the ideals of Captain America to know what is "good." Now that Captain America is "bad," its open season to do bad things.

[Highlord Laan]

Had an interesting discussion with a friend about this over coffee this morning. He was intrigued and somewhat horrified by what I think might be happening to Steve Rogers.


What I think it could be is Steve Rogers becoming completely disillusioned with the nation and people he fought for. Let me explain.

In the 40's, he and his mother attend a Hydra rally. They make a convincing case, but at the time, Steve and his mother are both still idealistic. Fast forward to the war, and Steve sees what Hydra and the Nazis are doing, and he stands against it. He ends up on ice, returns to a new age, but still holds to his ideals.

Then, over the /decades/ of leading the Avengers, being it's heart and soul, and leading by example, all of which is more or less ignored and taken for granted, the serum that made him the powerhouse he was wears off. He retires, wondering if he really did any good at all.

Cosmic Cube grants him his youth and abilities back, and what happens? He's immediately handed the same kind of missions he was doing before, by the same people that refuse to learn the same lessons, making the same mistakes, taking everything for granted and doing nothing but enforcing the status quo and enriching themselves. Finally, Steve Rogers is at the end of his rope...and he remembers that meeting, way back, as a kid. Remembers all he's fought for being tossed away by the very people he's protected in favor of soundbytes, inequality, hatred, chaos and greed.

Maybe, just maybe, Steve Rogers is tired of fighting for something impossible. Maybe he's come to the same conclusion that so may cynics and tyrants have come to before. People don't want freedom and justice. They just want their empty, prepackaged lives, soundbytes, binary choices and for everything to be for them and them alone. They're greedy, shortsighted, selfish, hateful, ignorant, spiteful and like it that way. They care nothing for equality in any form, only mouthing freedoms just so they can abuse them and lord it over anyone the feel is lesser than them. Perhaps Steve Rogers wan't always a Hydra Agent. But now, after everything, perhaps he no longer believes in what he once stood for. Why should he? It's obvious everyone else, even those he's fought beside and considered family (I'm looking at you, Tony) doesn't.

Hydra, horrible as it may be, offers a solution. People would rather be ruled than free, so give them what they want. Order. Peace. Equality. Who needs ideals when these things can be enforced? The governments and societies already embrace the ends justifying the means, so long as they profit from it. With Steve Rogers working for Hydra, he can make a better world happen. Even if he have to drag it there kicking and screaming, and force it to work over the objections of people that don't actually care.

This could be Steve Rogers/Captain America going through a Lawful Evil shift.

[Iroscato]

I bet you 50p it's just brainwashing/mind control/a clone/an alternate reality invader/a doppelgänger though.

[Batman]

50p huh. Sounds like somebody's not all that certain of his bet

[Highlord Laan]

50p huh. Sounds like somebody's not all that certain of his bet

Well, the writers already stated that it was none of those.

[Batman]

If you already knew you were wrong why make the bet in the first place?

[ArmorPierce]

With the caveat that I haven't read a comic book in my life, and given what the writers have stated, I suspect that it is some sort of reality warp related to the cosmic cube that brought him back.

[Majin Gojira]

One good commentator I follow, Professor Thorgi, put together a well thought out theory on what's going on with Hydra Cap.

Short version: The Skull implanted false memories in him during the "Avengers: Standoff on Pleasent Hill event" and there' sample clues to that all over the place. Throw in some Cosmic Cube shenanigans on top of it, and that's how we got here.

So I have no problem with the story event personally. It could very easily go to shit, of course . . . just as Superior Spider-Man's biggest fault was overselling a temporary measure as "Totally legit forever!" over and over again, I expect the same thing here. That or full One More Day as a Worst Case scenario.

However, how Marvel Marketing has been handling it all boils my blood.

Between this and Civil War II, it feels like going through Avengers Arena and Avengers Undercover at the same time.

Though I do get some schadenfreude from the fact that many of the people who are wailing over both supported those books where the exact sort of BS happened to B, C, and D Lit characters.

[Sidewinder]

Had an interesting discussion with a friend about this over coffee this morning. He was intrigued and somewhat horrified by what I think might be happening to Steve Rogers.


What I think it could be is Steve Rogers becoming completely disillusioned with the nation and people he fought for. Let me explain.

In the 40's, he and his mother attend a Hydra rally. They make a convincing case, but at the time, Steve and his mother are both still idealistic. Fast forward to the war, and Steve sees what Hydra and the Nazis are doing, and he stands against it. He ends up on ice, returns to a new age, but still holds to his ideals.

Then, over the /decades/ of leading the Avengers, being it's heart and soul, and leading by example, all of which is more or less ignored and taken for granted, the serum that made him the powerhouse he was wears off. He retires, wondering if he really did any good at all.

Cosmic Cube grants him his youth and abilities back, and what happens? He's immediately handed the same kind of missions he was doing before, by the same people that refuse to learn the same lessons, making the same mistakes, taking everything for granted and doing nothing but enforcing the status quo and enriching themselves. Finally, Steve Rogers is at the end of his rope...and he remembers that meeting, way back, as a kid. Remembers all he's fought for being tossed away by the very people he's protected in favor of soundbytes, inequality, hatred, chaos and greed.

Maybe, just maybe, Steve Rogers is tired of fighting for something impossible. Maybe he's come to the same conclusion that so may cynics and tyrants have come to before. People don't want freedom and justice. They just want their empty, prepackaged lives, soundbytes, binary choices and for everything to be for them and them alone. They're greedy, shortsighted, selfish, hateful, ignorant, spiteful and like it that way. They care nothing for equality in any form, only mouthing freedoms just so they can abuse them and lord it over anyone the feel is lesser than them. Perhaps Steve Rogers wan't always a Hydra Agent. But now, after everything, perhaps he no longer believes in what he once stood for. Why should he? It's obvious everyone else, even those he's fought beside and considered family (I'm looking at you, Tony) doesn't.

Hydra, horrible as it may be, offers a solution. People would rather be ruled than free, so give them what they want. Order. Peace. Equality. Who needs ideals when these things can be enforced? The governments and societies already embrace the ends justifying the means, so long as they profit from it. With Steve Rogers working for Hydra, he can make a better world happen. Even if he have to drag it there kicking and screaming, and force it to work over the objections of people that don't actually care.

This could be Steve Rogers/Captain America going through a Lawful Evil shift.

Well said. Sadly, I have no confidence Marvel Comics' writers put as much thought into this plot line as you did.

50p huh. Sounds like somebody's not all that certain of his bet :)

Well, the writers already stated that it was none of those.

The ORIGINAL writers may have intended Steve Rogers' motivations to be "none of those," but considering the possibility of executive meddling (see Xorn's identity for one example), there's a chance it WILL BE one of those.

[NeoGoomba]

Had an interesting discussion with a friend about this over coffee this morning. He was intrigued and somewhat horrified by what I think might be happening to Steve Rogers.


What I think it could be is Steve Rogers becoming completely disillusioned with the nation and people he fought for. Let me explain.

In the 40's, he and his mother attend a Hydra rally. They make a convincing case, but at the time, Steve and his mother are both still idealistic. Fast forward to the war, and Steve sees what Hydra and the Nazis are doing, and he stands against it. He ends up on ice, returns to a new age, but still holds to his ideals.

Then, over the /decades/ of leading the Avengers, being it's heart and soul, and leading by example, all of which is more or less ignored and taken for granted, the serum that made him the powerhouse he was wears off. He retires, wondering if he really did any good at all.

Cosmic Cube grants him his youth and abilities back, and what happens? He's immediately handed the same kind of missions he was doing before, by the same people that refuse to learn the same lessons, making the same mistakes, taking everything for granted and doing nothing but enforcing the status quo and enriching themselves. Finally, Steve Rogers is at the end of his rope...and he remembers that meeting, way back, as a kid. Remembers all he's fought for being tossed away by the very people he's protected in favor of soundbytes, inequality, hatred, chaos and greed.

Maybe, just maybe, Steve Rogers is tired of fighting for something impossible. Maybe he's come to the same conclusion that so may cynics and tyrants have come to before. People don't want freedom and justice. They just want their empty, prepackaged lives, soundbytes, binary choices and for everything to be for them and them alone. They're greedy, shortsighted, selfish, hateful, ignorant, spiteful and like it that way. They care nothing for equality in any form, only mouthing freedoms just so they can abuse them and lord it over anyone the feel is lesser than them. Perhaps Steve Rogers wan't always a Hydra Agent. But now, after everything, perhaps he no longer believes in what he once stood for. Why should he? It's obvious everyone else, even those he's fought beside and considered family (I'm looking at you, Tony) doesn't.

Hydra, horrible as it may be, offers a solution. People would rather be ruled than free, so give them what they want. Order. Peace. Equality. Who needs ideals when these things can be enforced? The governments and societies already embrace the ends justifying the means, so long as they profit from it. With Steve Rogers working for Hydra, he can make a better world happen. Even if he have to drag it there kicking and screaming, and force it to work over the objections of people that don't actually care.

This could be Steve Rogers/Captain America going through a Lawful Evil shift.

/slow clap

Rogers going down the Sauron route would be interesting if that is the plan. Perhaps he finally joins them to try and steer them in a slightly more noble direction. He'll still utilize their resources and their brutality, but perhaps his ideals are now tempered with an "ends justify the means" mindset after seeing the world he has fought so hard for mismanaged into the ground.

[jwl]

Oh come on, of course this isn't going to be real. If this wasn't over the internet, I'd bet a lot more than 50p on that. Even if it was intended to be real originally, the next writer is going to retcon it into being mind control or whatever.

I mean, look at those two other examples I gave from DC. Batgirl was drugged by Deathstroke and Green Lantern was possessed by the yellow lantern Parallax entity.

[Majin Gojira]

Oh come on, of course this isn't going to be real. If this wasn't over the internet, I'd bet a lot more than 50p on that. Even if it was intended to be real originally, the next writer is going to retcon it into being mind control or whatever.

I mean, look at those two other examples I gave from DC. Batgirl was drugged by Deathstroke and Green Lantern was possessed by the yellow lantern Parallax entity.

Well, to Originality, the Red Skull brainwashed Steve to be a Nazi back in Tales of Suspense #66-68 in a story by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby no less, back when multi-part stories were rare.

And yeah, if you read Avengers Standoff, it's deep/sublte Mind Control done by the Red Skull (because he has the powers of Charles Xavier thanks to a combination of grave robing and brain surgery). It's definitely temporary and for a deliberate reason.

But that Batgirl incident is a terrible example to use. Deathstroke was NOT the "Plan" in that incident. Not by a longshot. And the writing by comparison was far, far worse.

[Sidewinder]

Rogers going down the Sauron route would be interesting if that is the plan. Perhaps he finally joins them to try and steer them in a slightly more noble direction. He'll still utilize their resources and their brutality, but perhaps his ideals are now tempered with an "ends justify the means" mindset after seeing the world he has fought so hard for mismanaged into the ground.

Do you mean Sauron, or Saruman?

[NeoGoomba]

Do you mean Sauron, or [url=https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saruman]Saruman[/url]?

Sauron, honestly. I've always been fascinated by era when Sauron refused to go back with the Valar, opting to make it into a paradise all on his own without their help as a big middle finger to his former superiors. Captain America going Hydra could be handled similarly. He'd use the resources and tools at Hydra's command to do what he wanted to, both out of a desire to help the world in his own way, and as a "screw you" to the inept governments he has been dealing with all along.

Granted, to complete the narrative, Rogers would then fall into spite and jealousy, and would become a more terrible version of Red Skull.

[Highlord Laan]

Do you mean Sauron, or [url=https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saruman]Saruman[/url]?

Sauron, honestly. I've always been fascinated by era when Sauron refused to go back with the Valar, opting to make it into a paradise all on his own without their help as a big middle finger to his former superiors. Captain America going Hydra could be handled similarly. He'd use the resources and tools at Hydra's command to do what he wanted to, both out of a desire to help the world in his own way, and as a "screw you" to the inept governments he has been dealing with all along.

Granted, to complete the narrative, Rogers would then fall into spite and jealousy, and would become a more terrible version of Red Skull.

Which, were I writing this, is what would happen. Captain America, the Greek Tragedy.

[jwl]

Oh come on, of course this isn't going to be real. If this wasn't over the internet, I'd bet a lot more than 50p on that. Even if it was intended to be real originally, the next writer is going to retcon it into being mind control or whatever.

I mean, look at those two other examples I gave from DC. Batgirl was drugged by Deathstroke and Green Lantern was possessed by the yellow lantern Parallax entity.

Well, to Originality, the Red Skull brainwashed Steve to be a Nazi back in Tales of Suspense #66-68 in a story by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby no less, back when multi-part stories were rare.

And yeah, if you read Avengers Standoff, it's deep/sublte Mind Control done by the Red Skull (because he has the powers of Charles Xavier thanks to a combination of grave robing and brain surgery). It's definitely temporary and for a deliberate reason.

But that Batgirl incident is a terrible example to use. Deathstroke was NOT the "Plan" in that incident. Not by a longshot. And the writing by comparison was far, far worse.

My point was "even if it was intended to be real originally, the next writer is going to retcon it into being mind control or whatever". Green Lantern wasn't originally supposed to be possessed by the Parallax entity either.