Agents of SHIELD season three. [Spoilers]

[Adrian McNair]

Too powerful?

Yeah, that's what I wrote.

I don't know. He's strong, sure, but not that strong. He can only mind control inhumans. His ranged attacks seem limited in scope. He can survive a rocket launcher? Big fucking deal. Throw an ICBM at him.

Yep. All you have to do is lure Hive into a remote and uninhabited area, get President Ellis to sign off on using a nuke on American soil (assuming he's in the U.S. at the time) and then hope that's enough to do the job. "Big fucking deal," indeed.

I actually think there are several individual Avengers who could probably take him one on one, at least if not caught off guard.

He's strong for this show, not strong by the overall standards of the MCU.

It's a good thing that this is a series where the Avengers directly intervene on a regular basis then. Oh wait. Do you even bother to think things through before you type these posts out? In theory Agents of SHIELD is set in the MCU but given how often the major movie characters cross paths with anyone on TV (which is, with the exception of Fury, never) it might as well not be. It is, as someone once wrote elsewhere, the tail end of the MCU. By Avengers standards Hive might be someone Thor or the Hulk could wipe their arses with but they aren't a factor in this context (they're too busy dealing with other business, anyway).

And do we know anything of the circumstances of how he destroyed a world?

The fact that he did might just be cause for concern. It's one of his feats. It doesn't matter how he did it. He's demonstrated the ability to manipulate Maveth's environment. The only reason we haven't seen him do that on Earth is because it's not a priority for him and he doesn't consider Team Coulson to be anything more than an annoyance (otherwise he would have launched a full-scale relentless assault on the Playground by now). He's entirely focused on creating Primitive Inhumans that he can control. I love how you just trivialise Hive's threat level as though he's a lowly bank robber or a Saturday morning cartoon baddie.

Regardless, I don't think that I was actually trying to make an argument in favour of keeping Dalton on the show, so much as just saying I thought it was likely.

Given how often you bend over backwards to make excuses for Ward in general you've done a sterling job of giving me the exact opposite impression. Just accept the fact that you're an apologist for fictional villains. I'll appreciate your honesty. Or don't and whine about it some more.

So I don't give a damn weather Dukat is a "poor" example or not.

Why wouldn't Dukat be a poor example? They took a relatively interesting character and completely ruined him by allying him with one of the worst aspects of the show (the evil branch of the fucking wormhole aliens that took a gigantic dump on DS9 every time they appeared). From military leader to Space Satanic cultist. That's an improvement! Also, it's "whether". Are you illiterate? Has your typing subroutine encountered an error? Why is this a habit with you? I just don't understand.

Bringing Ward back...

They'd have to do something new with him for it to be really good. Since they pretty much rejected the redemption idea over and over again (and portrayed Ward as a fairly one-dimensional revenge-obsessed sadist in the process as I recall), but did not develop Ward into a real Big Bad caliber-antagonist and had him keep making the same sorts of mistakes, he'd gotten kind of tired and shallow and doesn't have a lot of obvious directions to go in. I'll give them credit for finally doing something new with him, sort of, with the "Ward as a Hive cultist" thing, but then he died, and if they kill Hive... that angle's probably played out too.

It's nice to see you completely undermining your own point while still being ridiculously accommodating about such a notion. Would it kill you to agree with me on this issue once in a while? Ward is dead and he had it coming. More than a few times over. What's it going to take for you to actually hate a villain? I'm quite frankly curious.

Its a pity, because from mid season one to late season two I think Ward was possibly one of the MCU's most interesting and compelling characters.

It's not a tragedy, TRR. Ward had his time in the sun and he made his mark. The show can survive his absence.

That said, I wouldn't necessarily object to Ward coming back, provided that its well-written, of course, and in particular that they never, ever ruin Daisy's strength of character by having her get together with him.

Why on Earth would that even happen? Three seasons and it still hasn't sunk in? It's thankfully far, far too late now. The only people who are willing to entertain that possibility are batshit crazy.

Does that look like the face of a woman who's grief-stricken and pining for Bad Boy McShitbird? Fuck no. So why even bring it up?

There is, in particular, one angle that they hinted at that I wouldn't mind seeing followed up on:

Back in season two, Coulson offered Ward the option of going through the Tahiti program and having his memory wiped. I think that would have been very interesting. Give Ward a clean slate of sorts, and see what kind of man he is without all the baggage of his past, all his misguided loyalties and obsessions and indoctrination and grudges. Maybe he'd be a better man. Maybe he'd still be a complete scum bag/nut job. But I think that a good writer could potentially make an interesting character study of it.

It wouldn't even have to last. You could do it for an episode, or an arc, then have him revert to the old Ward or die. But I think there was potential there for a wonderful story that was never used.

As you said earlier it would have to be exceptionally well done and even then it would ultimately be pointless given that, in your hypothetical, Ward dies. Plus it would have the uncomfortable feel of attempting to gloss over his crimes. It seems like the polar opposite of "wonderful" to me. Ward doesn't have a future. Everyone that wasn't an ally of convenience hated and feared him when he was still alive. His mentally unstable girlfriend died by his hand. He's done. The only place for him now is the comics where he's just been introduced.

I would like to see more Marvel villains brought in, though. And, hell, original villains. Not everything has to come from the comics. One of the things I like about this show is that a lot of the main cast are apparently original characters, and ever time they have one turn out to be a comics character, it irritates me. Its like, God forbid that they do anything purely original. I'll give them a pass on it though, because Daisy is awesome and Hive is at least a fairly menacing villain.

Yeah, how dare they do use comic book characters in the comic book TV adaptation! You sound like an absolute snob thumbing his nose at the source material for even having the temerity to exist. Have you even read any of the comics (Secret Warriors would be a good start)? The issue isn't whether or not the characters are pre-existing ones but how they're used. That's all that matters.

It's rather ironic that you're complaining about the lack of original characters given that a significant portion of Team Coulson, including their leader, were only introduced via the MCU. Until recently, Raina and Ward didn't have comic counterparts either.

Why do you keep projecting this pompous air of authority in every post? You're not in charge of anything. You are completely powerless when it comes to determining Agents of SHIELD's direction. As am I. We're just opinionated viewers.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh, Christ, here we go again. I knew I should have ignored you.

I thought about writing a lengthy tract breaking down your post point by point and refuting every bit of dishonesty, every personal attack on my character, and every bit of irrationality. But frankly, I decided halfway through that it wasn't worth it. A more succinct reply that gets to the heart of the matter will suffice, I think.

First of all, this is the second time, to my recollection that you have derailed a thread to pursue, via personal attacks on my character, your grudge against the character of Grant Ward and your grudge against me for not being doubleplus goodthinkful and hating him as much as you. This obsession with a year old argument we had (and which I may only remember now because you keep fucking dredging it up) is pathetic and, frankly, rather creepy.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if you were baiting me from the start just to have an excuse to rehash this pig shit.

Secondly, you are conflating a number of different points here. For one, you are conflating "I find this character interesting and entertaining and think that they can make a positive contribution to the series" with "I believe this character is a good person and condone their actions." You are also conflating "I don't hate this person for their crimes and want to see them suffer/die" with "I approve of them/their actions."

I could go on, but those are the two most blatant examples, I think.

The former is just a stupid non-sequitur. The latter is generic far Right tough on crime/War on Terror bullshit applied to a fictional world.

I reject both.

I will not endlessly rehash the distinctions for your benefit, either. So I suggest you apply what little cognitive potential you have, and figure it out.

[Adrian McNair]

Oh, Christ, here we go again.

Yes, here we go again. Don't get pissy just because I have opinions that shatter the fragile bubble you live in.

I knew I should have ignored you.

And why didn't you? Let me guess, your brittle ego prevented you from doing so.

I thought about writing a lengthy tract breaking down your post point by point and refuting every bit of dishonesty, every personal attack on my character, and every bit of irrationality. But frankly, I decided halfway through that it wasn't worth it. A more succinct reply that gets to the heart of the matter will suffice, I think.

That's an overly verbose way of saying that you're incapable of and unwilling to address my points. I thought that was frowned upon around these parts. Nice dodge. You'd make a good politician, TRR.

First of all, this is the second time, to my recollection that you have derailed a thread to pursue, via personal attacks on my character, your grudge against the character of Grant Ward and your grudge against me for not being doubleplus goodthinkful and hating him as much as you.

Except that it hasn't been derailed and I don't see you gracefully bowing out of this feud, hypocrite. Grant Ward and Hive are characters on the show are they not? So we're still staying on topic. Plus I tore your arguments regarding other subjects in other threads to shreds as well.

I think that when it comes to fictional villains in general you're a spineless, wishy-washy coward who'd collapse like a flimsy deck of cards in the face of adversity. A fool who sees decency where there isn't any. If you were the one leading the Avengers in the MCU the human race would be extinct by now or worse.

And I'd say that hatred of a fictional character is a vastly more healthy outlet for one's anger and frustrations than taking those feelings out on a real person. You seem to be incapable of distinguishing between reality and fiction. That's a disturbing trend with you. Perhaps you should seek the assistance of a professional.

This obsession with a year old argument we had (and which I may only remember now because you keep fucking dredging it up) is pathetic and, frankly, rather creepy.

Your insufferable man crush on Ward is what's actually pathetic and, frankly, rather creepy. At least have the decency to be attracted to someone who's alive and a hero like Mack. That would be something I wouldn't have any problems with.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if you were baiting me from the start just to have an excuse to rehash this pig shit.

You're welcome to have whatever paranoid delusions you want. Do you see me needling you in News and Politics over your Chicken Little bullshit? No? Maybe it's really connected with the fact that you're aggressively, obnoxiously wrong here and I'm challenging you over it. Don't overthink this.

Secondly, you are conflating a number of different points here. For one, you are conflating "I find this character interesting and entertaining and think that they can make a positive contribution to the series" with "I believe this character is a good person and condone their actions."

The problem is that you've shown a troubling tendency to just brush off what Ward has done and play devil's advocate. You do THIS. EVERY. TIME. This is a character who has been defined by betrayal, mass-murder and torture. He's the complete antithesis of everything you claim to stand for. Rather than clamouring for his death like a normal person you keep giving him a pass over and over again. It's tiresome in the extreme.

Given how toxic the Agents of SHIELD fanbase has become due to dear old Grant, just how much of a "positive" contribution he's made is debatable. The best thing he ever did was perish.

You are also conflating "I don't hate this person for their crimes and want to see them suffer/die" with "I approve of them/their actions."

See above. Contrary to what you might think, TRR, I don't have a burning desire to see Ward tortured. I already got what I wanted. Seeing that piece of shit get his chest caved in was a highlight of the season. I just want him to actually stay dead. You don't for some reason. What would it take for you to really want to see a villain get some payback? Just how evil would he or she have to be? Can't you see that entertaining revenge fantasies would be harmless catharsis? You wouldn't magically become tainted or irredeemable because of it.

This might be difficult for you to fathom but I consider torture to be unpleasant and repugnant. If you're going to deal with an antagonist make it quick and clinical. So the "suffering" part doesn't apply to me.

The former is just a stupid non-sequitur. The latter is generic far Right tough on crime/War on Terror bullshit applied to a fictional world.

Oh, that's cute. You think you can pigeonhole me. I'm a far more complicated person than your petty attempts to caricature me would suggest. Who's doing the baiting now? And over a fictional matter no less. You're not as superior as you believe yourself to be. At least you didn't call me a "Wannabe Tough Guy" again. That got stale the first time around.

I will not endlessly rehash the distinctions for your benefit, either. So I suggest you apply what little cognitive potential you have, and figure it out.

Fine, go and be a patronising dickhead who's incapable of differentiating between basic words elsewhere then (who's the one with "little cognitive potential" here, huh? Get off you high-horse Mr. "Their and Weather"). Your predictions about the season finale are going to be woefully inaccurate, by the way. Have a blast being incorrect. That should be something you're intimately familiar with.

Alrighty then. I think we've hashed this out sufficiently. Time to get back to discussing the show and episodes. Time to leave Grant Ward in the dustbin of fictional characters where he belongs. I'm looking forward to Hive's impending demise now.

[The Romulan Republic]

Its hard to walk away, as much as I'd like to, when you keep lying about my positions and making personal attacks against my character. That is neither hypocrisy or mere ego. Its called debating. You don't get to say whatever you like without response.

However, if I misinterpreted your position on any issue, it was unintentional. I will even accept at face value that you don't desire to see people tortured until such time as you contradict it.

For the record, because I do not like to see my personal beliefs misrepresented:

I believe that very few people, real or fictional, are 100 percent evil, and I believe that most people are, at least theoretically, capable of redemption, and I generally do not take pleasure in the suffering or death of others. I have an absolute moral and pragmatic opposition to the death penalty. I do not subscribe to "tough on crime" bull shit. Nonetheless, that does not mean that I condone criminals' actions, or that I think they should not face Justice. I fully support life without possibility of parol in cases of extreme/repeat violent offenders. None of these are particularly radical positions, nor do I believe they contradict my past posts.

Therefore, if Grant Ward were a real man, I would probably want him to receive a fair trial, followed by life without possibility of parol in a maximum security penitentiary.

If that does not satisfy peoples' bloodlust, I don't give a shit.

However, Grant Ward is thankfully not a real man, so the only consideration that really matters when it comes to his fate is what makes for a better TV show. And again, "I think this character is interesting and enjoy watching them" is not the same as "I think they are a good person and condone their actions." I thought Heath Ledger's Joker was a brilliant character too (who, guess what, survived his film). It doesn't mean that I want to fuck him or that I'm cool with blowing up hospitals. If that is too hard to grasp, I'm not sure what more I can say.

And I do think you crossed a major fucking ethical line (in addition to your prior obsessive harassment and dishonesty) when you apparently decided that false accusations of mental illness and insinuations about my sexuality were acceptable debating tactics.

But this debate is going in circles, so I'll walk away if you will.

[The Romulan Republic]

One thing that's come to mind again is the old issue of lack of interconnectivity between AoS and the rest of the Marvel universe. I mean, I understand wanting it to be accessible to people who haven't watched the films, and vice versa. I understand TV budget issues. That they probably can't afford to have Robert Downey Jr. guest star or do the full Hulk effects justice.

But still, I'd like to see a bit more crossover. So I pose this question, just for fun, and to give us something more to talk about until the finale on Tuesday:

A. If you could pick one character from the movies to appear on the show, who would it be?
B. If you could pick one character from the show to appear in the movies, who would it be?
C. If you could do one character crossover with another Marvel TV show/Netflix show, who would it be?

My tentative answers:

A. Black Panther. One of the few things I liked about Civil War.
B. Besides Coulson? Daisy.
C. Time travel episode with Peggy Carter, now that Agent Carter has been cancelled.

[FaxModem1]

1. Let's go with Black Widow. Seeing Natasha Romanov meet up with her fellow co-workers could be interesting, especially as her backstory hasn't really been explored. Or, and this is completely impossible due to budget reasons, Red Skull, I'd love to see the founder of HYDRA just wipe the floor with all these pretenders that have been running around for the past three seasons.
2. FitzSimmons, although that's technically two, but I'd love to see them have a geek off with Iron Man or Ant Man's gear.
3. Will Simpson/Nuke. I'd like to see what SHIELD/ATCU is doing about all these super soldier programs that keep on popping out of the woodworks in addition to the Inhumans going around.

[Crazedwraith]

Those are good choices. Especially the last one.. I'd think Matt Murdoch would have been my choice. One of the easier ones to fit in. You just need SHIELD or a guest star run into legal issues in Hell's Kitchen for some reason and boom. Laywer up with Nelson & Murdoch. Well if it was set Between Daredevil seasons 1 & 2 at least. I

It'd be very interesting to see them try and merge to AoS and Netflix strands of the MCU because they're not really alike. AoS more closely follows the films. Netflix just references Avengers 1 occasionally.

Carter's already been on AoS and I think more flashbacks would be preferable to actual time travel. Maybe wrap up and loose AC ends if they can somehow be linked to a AoS plot.

[Adrian McNair]

Its hard to walk away, as much as I'd like to, when you keep lying about my positions and making personal attacks against my character. That is neither hypocrisy or mere ego. Its called debating.

Don't pretend that you haven't done the same. In that last post it wasn't a debate. Just muck-raking. You're not blameless here.

You don't get to say whatever you like without response.

That also applies to you. In fact, given how defensive you can be I'd say it's a far more appropriate statement for you. I fully expect responses to what I write. I actively invite them.

However, if I misinterpreted your position on any issue, it was unintentional. I will even accept at face value that you don't desire to see people tortured until such time as you contradict it.

That's progress, I suppose.

I believe that very few people, real or fictional, are 100 percent evil, and I believe that most people are, at least theoretically, capable of redemption, and I generally do not take pleasure in the suffering or death of others.

I find your inability to separate the two categories perplexing. What happens in the realm of fiction doesn't have any bearing on what occurs in the real world. You don't have to apply your real-world liberal viewpoint to that (I certainly don't). Do you have issues with people who play and enjoy violent video games? Well, that's the kind of enjoyment that I apply to the entirety of fiction. I unambiguously love seeing scumbags violently meet their respective ends. Not in reality. In fiction. There are far too many arseholes drawing breath in the real world, making life miserable for others. In fiction that's no longer a problem.

Who are the "very few" that are utterly irredeemable in your eyes? I wish to know.

I have an absolute moral and pragmatic opposition to the death penalty.

I don't. I believe that there are cases where it's fully warranted but only if there is incontrovertible proof of the person's guilt and the crimes in question are sufficiently heinous. I recognise that this isn't how the death penalty works in reality but it is how I believe it should be implemented.

I do not subscribe to "tough on crime" bull shit. Nonetheless, that does not mean that I condone criminals' actions, or that I think they should not face Justice. I fully support life without possibility of parol in cases of extreme/repeat violent offenders.

The bolded part is where I can't help but disagree. Different strokes and all that.

Therefore, if Grant Ward were a real man, I would probably want him to receive a fair trial, followed by life without possibility of parol in a maximum security penitentiary.

It's far more likely that he'd be executed on charges of terrorism and treason. What you want wouldn't factor into it.

If that does not satisfy peoples' bloodlust, I don't give a shit.

It doesn't need to. My bloodlust has already been satiated.

However, Grant Ward is thankfully not a real man, so the only consideration that really matters when it comes to his fate is what makes for a better TV show. And again, "I think this character is interesting and enjoy watching them" is not the same as "I think they are a good person and condone their actions."

Emphasis mine. This is where your whole line of thinking falls apart and is at odds with your stated values. You can find a villain interesting and even amusing. But enjoyment is a bridge too far. At that point being against them and rooting for them is a very hazy line. That's what I take issue with.

If that is too hard to grasp, I'm not sure what more I can say.

It isn't.

And I do think you crossed a major fucking ethical line (in addition to your prior obsessive harassment and dishonesty) when you apparently decided that false accusations of mental illness and insinuations about my sexuality were acceptable debating tactics.

Oh, get over yourself, TRR! This, right here, is why people find you so annoying. "A major ethical line"? You're acting as though I've committed a serious crime when it's merely a case of Internet trash talk. Very tame trash talk at that. You could have easily brushed it off but you chose to be melodramatic. I only escalated things after you belittled my intelligence, implied that I was a torture advocate and lumped me in with far right-wing nutjobs (people that I despise, by the way). Man, you're such a delicate little snowflake. You'd have a meltdown playing anything online.

But this debate is going in circles, so I'll walk away if you will.

Very well.

[FaxModem1]

So, here's my question, just how does HYDRA work? Just how expansive is it? Because we have the Nazi branch, the Demon worshipping branch, and the branch that kept the Avengers busy in-between Winter Soldier and Avengers 2. Plus, there's no real interaction between SHIELD and the Avengers, so there could be overlap in the bases and personnel they take out. So, just how big is HYDRA supposed to be? Or should we just say that there is a MCU and that the TV shows don't really matter?

[Elheru Aran]

So, here's my question, just how does HYDRA work? Just how expansive is it? Because we have the Nazi branch, the Demon worshipping branch, and the branch that kept the Avengers busy in-between Winter Soldier and Avengers 2. Plus, there's no real interaction between SHIELD and the Avengers, so there could be overlap in the bases and personnel they take out. So, just how big is HYDRA supposed to be? Or should we just say that there is a MCU and that the TV shows don't really matter?

Little bit of column A, little bit of column B...

As far as I know, they structure the shows *around* the movies. Some people from the show *may* appear in the movies (see turncoat HYDRA guy from Agents in Winter Soldier).

No idea about what's been in the show as I haven't followed it (it's on my Netflix queue though), but I want to say that HYDRA has been around for long enough, staying under the surface, that a lot of it is fairly independent. Nominally loyal to the general movement, and if whomever is the Supreme Hydra or whatever bollocks tells them to do something, they might, but until then they do pretty much their own thing. So you get different branches being up to different shenanigans, but overall they were all working towards the same purpose in destabilizing SHIELD and various world governments.

[The Romulan Republic]

So it looks like the finale will be two back-to-back episodes tonight.

Looking forward to it.

Please don't kill Daisy, May, or FitzSimmons.

[FaxModem1]

So it looks like the finale will be two back-to-back episodes tonight.

Looking forward to it.

Please don't kill Daisy, May, or FitzSimmons.

Fixed that for you.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well...

I'm glad Daisy, May, and FitzSimmons are alive.

The finale had some great moments, to be sure. Mack had some. So did Coulson. Fitz killing Mr. Evil Telepath was out of nowhere, it seemed, but bad ass. Ditto nailing Hive in the containment system early on. We finally saw Hive's true form in detail.

But the whole thing was so damn manipulative. They play up that someone's going to die, then throw obvious red herrings through the episode, so its artificially manipulative rather than the drama and suspense feeling entirely natural. It felt like it was written by the marketing division, to some extent.

And I still felt that, while the issue was debated back and forth, they came down somewhat on the side of Daisy having a degree of fault for her actions under Hive's control. That's not a point that should be remotely ambiguous. I don't have a problem with Daisy feeling that way- irrational guilt is understandable. But I don't agree with that conclusion.

Mack and Lincoln forgiving her is probably meant well, but I question the notion that she needs forgiveness.

And while I understand the reasoning behind it, of it being an addiction, watching their strong female protagonist beg the monster who warped her mind to take her back was just painful. At least she got to try to pummel him later.

May being the one to snap Daisy out of it was good, though. And at least they didn't have Daisy die to atone like I feared.

Their are probably other issues I could go into with Daisy's characterization as well, but those are the main ones I recall. I should watch it again when I get the chance.

The timing of events (like Coulson having time to evacuate the base and then fly up to engage Hive in the time available) and the pacing of the episode seemed off too.

The Lincoln as Jesus, Hive as Satan thing was a bit of a stretch, and a bit heavy-handed, but worked about as well as could be expected for the most part, I suppose.

Hive reflecting on his impending death was surprisingly well-done.

I'll eat my hat if Brett Dalton is permanently off the show, though. It seems to me that that last scene, with the creepy doctor playing around with LMDs, gives them a handy way to bring back a deceased character's actor any time they feel like it. Bit of a cop-out, but what can you do? Though I admit, I can't think of a particularly good reason off the top of my head that anyone would create a Ward/Hive LMD. Maybe to infiltrate some Hydra remnants? But they seem to have written Hydra out too. Maybe they want to revamp the show with a clean slate, more or less.

The ending was a bit confusing. Coulson mentioned talking to the director. Did he get sacked after what happened? Ditto the stuff with the doctor talking about FitzSimmons and everything at the end.

And Daisy seems to be freelance, now. Okay. Probably they'll bring her back in the next season's premier, but it would be interesting if they're writing her out so they can put her in the movies. Yeah, yeah, I know, but I can dream.

[Solauren]

Actually, having known a few people that had addiction issues, Daisy's portrayal (and the handling of it) was spot on.

She was in pain as a result of her no longer getting her 'fix' (Hive's brainwashing), and felt horrible for her actions. She didn't believe she was a worth-while person anymore.

That is what traps alot of people into long-term, self-destructive addiction.

Then, when she got the chance, she immediately went back to it to feel better. Like someone that is trying to kick the habit, going back it.

Then, when someone says she can't have it anymore, she lashed out at them. Like taking stuff from a junkie.

As for the 6 month 'preview'.
Daisy probably left SHIELD as a result of her withdrawl, and is doing stuff she thinks will help make up for it (and possibly give her a different high).
Similar to junkies and the like 'finding christ' and all that.

And Ms. Bennet portrayed it beautifully.

[The Romulan Republic]

Like I said, I can see where some of what happened with Daisy was coming from. That didn't make it less painful to watch.

Its also all tangled up with the fact that her addiction, in this case, is a person, specifically the man who used her against her will. So it comes across as taking their strong female protagonist and having her beg her rapist to take her back. I doubt that was the intent, and I get everything you're saying, but sometimes, in these science fiction scenarios that don't have real world analogs, the analogies can become muddled. Of course its because she's still under Hive's influence, not because she has genuine loyalty or sympathy for him. But it was a very uncomfortable scene to watch. Which I suppose it should be, so good on them I guess.

I do hope Daisy's back on the team next season.

And on a different note, while I'm here, kudos for the fight scene between her and Hive. One of the better fights, in terms of effects and choreography, that they've had, I think. And May demolishing Hive's goons was excellent.

[Alkaloid]

It was painful to watch for you because you're so desperate to find something to be outraged about that you're fixated on the plot line playing out as a metaphor for rape rather than what it is, which is a story about addiction. (For the record, if you need an analogy here, Daisy is a person who got hooked on opiates in hospital and the staff missed it before release. She isn't responsible for it happening in the first place but there is an element of responsibility for what she did after that)

The show went out of it's way repeatedly to point out that people under Hives sway still knew right from wrong, and they weren't comfortable with some of the things they did for him but they did them anyway. You'll also notice Daisy focused her guilt on the things she did, not what was done to her. She never expressed any guilt about coming under Hives sway, it was exclusively about what she did for him while she was under it, aka doing things to keep getting her fix.

Most importantly though, her loyalty was never to Hive. She hated him. A soon as he couldn't give her what she wanted she went at him harder than she went at anyone else all series, up to and including his enemies when she was under his sway. It's like Sol said, she's an addict, he's her dealer. Addicts don't work to the same logic as most people because their world revolves around getting their next fix, and if their dealer can't provide that for them then they will turn on them in a heartbeat.

That said.

The ending is fairly simple. Coulson has always seen himself as director in waiting for Fury, who I think it is likely has returned (SHIELDs image having been fairly well restored by the whole 'saving the world' thing). Daisy quit and is likely back in her old anarchist hacker life going by her painfully stereotyped new getup. Fitz and Simmons jumped ship because they are smart kids who have detected a pattern and aren't wild about watching each other die.

John Hannah continues to be the best thing about this show, which is no surprise because he's the best thing about every show he's in. Man. Can. Act. Shotgun axe was cute, 00Fitz is back from early season, glad they didn't forget about that.

Second part was much stronger than the first. Lincoln's final scene was more than the character deserved, really, but it was good. The idea that the two (formerly) blandest characters in the show had a minute to watch the world turn and talk before they died was good, but it didn't really get developed as much as I'd have liked. That said, decent finale. Scattered applause.

[biostem]

I wonder if the little stinger was a reference to: http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Artificial ... Earth-712)

[Crazedwraith]

Finale just aired here and can I say I fucking hate '6 months later' bits in finales, rips me right out of it. That said It makes sense Coulson is no longer director. He had to call in Talbott and the army to clear out his top secret base that seem to be basically new SHIELD's whole hardware. Seems to me that SHIELD has been legitimised again. President Sloane hinted it might happen but they still can't have a supposed dead man in charge. My bet is Talbott's risen to that slot as a reoccuring character with an affordable actor. Maybe Hill.

I got to say their handling of the Sovokia Accords was not brilliant. It was a bit more than the usual one line nod the movies got but nothing too much. Talbott waves the accords in Coulson's face. He ignores it because he's Talbott's boss. It gets forgotten because they have bigger fish to fry with hive.

TRR's dislike of Civil War is magnifying how much better the episode is. Because of fucking course Talbott and Coulson don't start their own Civil War over it. There's no reason to. They're different characters in different situation. And (vague CW spoilers) Spoiler

Hell, Cap didn't even start Civil War over the Accords in principle. He ignored them to help Bucky and stop Zemo.

I did like how they mention S1's Index. Strange that was never mentioned in s2 or 3 up until then. I remember speculation it being out was big deal for various powered people. (and it should have been) But they went the inhuman route instead.

The last few episodes were decent enough. But I really dislike the religious 'i was meant to do this!!11' bits. It made more sense when Lincoln described it as almost evolutionary. That powers assigned based on the receivers needs right then. But Lash was turned well before Hive came on the scene. So that doesn't work. And what was 'the plan' for all the inhumans not involved in the lash arc?

[bilateralrope]

I get the feeling that inhumans were a Kree experiment that they viewed as a failure.

[The Romulan Republic]

I thought that was actually confirmed in the show, but perhaps I am incorrect and it was just heavily implied.

[Crazedwraith]

Umm. Yeah. The kree guys said basically that when fighting hive.

What was that in response to something I said Bilateralrope? Or just a general thought?

[bilateralrope]

Just a general thought.

[The Romulan Republic]

So... where does the show go from here?

Daisy's out, at least temporarily. Coulson is apparently no longer the Director. Ward/Hive is gone, or so it appears (death is an ambiguous thing in superhero worlds). Lincoln is dead. Bobbi and Hunter are gone. Hydra is apparently gone, or nearly so. Its like they want to start the show over almost with a clean slate.

The cast is growing rather thin. I suppose they could just go back to a smaller cast and give the new Inhumans more screen time. That would be good. But I suspect we'll get some new cast members next season. At the very least, their has to be a new Director, though I suppose an existing character could get the job.

Hmm, maybe bring Deathlok back full time?

I hope Daisy isn't gone long, in any case.

I wonder who the new Director will be?

Truth be told, though, I'm starting to sour on the whole MCU, between my rather strong dislike of Civil War, Whedon's departure, and just how muddled and repetitive a lot of it has started to feel, among other things.

Still, I'll give next season a shot.

[FaxModem1]

The show needs the clean break. Agents of SHIELD was sold to the audience as the behind the scenes of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, what Coulson and company did after the events of something like the Avengers or Thor. Instead, we got an only okay 1990s style adventure of the week show, then the SHIELD civil war show, which was good, as it actually lived up to the premise. After that, it became wrapped up in Inhumans, HYDRA, Real SHIELD, and Ward, and acted as if it was in its own universe. That would be fine, if its own universe was actually interesting to watch, and not forced to have more interesting stuff being only in the films.

Now, you can have a show like this, but it has to have a couple things to make it work. have their actions mean something to the franchise, whether by the villains or the heroes. Season 2 had Nick Fury hire Coulson to take the helicarrier from the first Avengers, and pour a lot of money and staff to rebuilding it. Good, now have them actually show up in Avengers 2, rather than a couple of extras from Winter Soldier. Second, since Samuel L Jackson is actually willing to grace your set every once in a while, explain why he's been gone since Avengers 2, why Coulson's efforts and hindering of SHIELD's resources means something that you made such a point of as driving a wedge between May and Coulson, then don't drop it. Or, have Cobie Smulders appear on a recurring basis, giving orders from Fury, to show that they are doing something instead of the Avengers because of reason XYZ.

If you're that determined to have Hydra dominate the plot for three seasons, bring in a big name actor and have Toby Jones Arnim Zola be a regular for while, with Coulson revealing to the cheapest Avengers member they can afford as a liasion that they're alive.

If it's hard, and or impossible to have Robert Downey Jr, Scarlet Johnansen, or Chris Evans appear for the day, have May, Fitz, Simmons, Trip, Hunter or somebody appear as a minor player in one of the MCU movies. Or, on the bad guy side, have Ward make a cameo telling Von Strucker or a computer Zola to take a hike.

Or, since Agents of SHIELD is no longer the only MCU show, tie in Luke Cage, Daredevil, Jessica Jones by having them have to work in New York more due to all the costumed vigilantes there. Since Agent Carter has been cancelled, make season 4 be more about closing Peggy's old case files.

Look at the later Star Trek continuity. Voyager was on the other side of the galaxy, but come Message in a Bottle and Hunters, with them finding out that the Maquis have been exterminated by the Dominion and that the Federation is at war, they take a moment to address it and fully realize that it does affect them. Likewise, the events of Insurrection are something that affects the Dominion, as season 7 has Weyoun noting to Damar that the S'ona are no longer helping them anymore, adding to the plot of Damar's frustration with Weyoun and the Dominion. They even had multiple episodes with Barclay, Troi and Riker cameoing.

Agents of SHIELD needs to know whether it is own thing, and fully embracing it a lot harder, or tie itself to the rest of the MCU. Right now, it's trying both and pleasing no one.

[Crazedwraith]

Anyway, finale guesses (let's see how many I get):

Daisy dies (or appears to die/dies and is later resurrected). In which case, Lincoln may walk away from SHIELD.

Brett Dalton stays on the show (likely meaning Hive lives). I feel like he's a central part of the show now, the show's definitive villain.

Possibly May and Coulson hook up. I've felt like the show might be heading that way for a while, and with Andrew definitively out of the picture, now might be the time. On the other hand, this show tends to take its time with romance plots, and that's something that might carry over to next season.

Zero for three!