Umptety shooting in usa. Orlando case

[Civil War Man]

Not much difference between Christian and Muslim terrorists when you get down to it, except in terms of window dressing and the latter, these days, being better organized.

At the end of the day, its indoctrinated assholes killing people over bigotry and old superstition.

I think the bigger difference is that the former has managed to integrate itself into the US government to a larger degree, so only the most extreme of Christian extremists feel the need to use bombs and guns. The rest are able to inflict their agenda on everyone else (with varying levels of success) through official government apparatuses.

[Tanasinn]

I must be living in a different world than you, since in my supposed Christian terrorist run America, gays have the right to marry, despite religious admonitions that they all be killed. I can make fun of Jesus, call God fake, even do porn of the J-man if I was that much of a try-hard. Just the opposite of Islamist-run states.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

To try to pull this back on topic, I suspect that he was a repressed homosexual who just had a gay panic, and was just coincidentally a Muslim but used that as an excuse.

Anyone agree? Disagree? Other theories on motivation?

I think it's fucking stupid to blame homosexuality for some psycho pledging allegience to Muslim Hitler and attacking a gay night club.

???

He's not blaming homosexuality, whatever that means.

Anyway, who cares about his motivations. He was a pissed off prick who hated gays, and he probably flirted with radical Islamic ideologies or something. Who knows. He probably thought pledging allegiance to ISIS would be badass, but everyone knows he's not Straight-outta-Raqqah. Too bad he was too much of a coward to actually go out with a real ISIS-style suicide vest, unlike the terrorists who attacked the Bataclan in Paris.

If he'd had an actual suicide vest we'd have been looking at triple-digit fatalities, given how packed the place was.

Here's a bulletpoint of what we know as of 1 PM Eastern:

Probably not the terminology I would have used...
/nitpick

[Elheru Aran]

I must be living in a different world than you, since in my supposed Christian terrorist run America, gays have the right to marry, despite religious admonitions that they all be killed. I can make fun of Jesus, call God fake, even do porn of the J-man if I was that much of a try-hard. Just the opposite of Islamist-run states.

The thing is, he didn't claim that it was "Christian terrorist run America", he pointed out that Christians have integrated themselves into the government. Just look at how much of a flap the Kim Davis affair was, or the continuing saga of Judge Roy Moore of Alabama. It's not like people are getting stoned for breaking religious law... but people *are* trying to enforce religious beliefs via their positions on occasion.

Then you have the whole cultural thing; Christianity has been around in the States for a long enough time that a lot of people just take it for granted that people they meet will be Christian or at least reasonably well inculcated in that particular context. People in government are no less susceptible to this than anybody else, especially considering that turnovers can be fairly low so someone can hold their office for decades without too much trouble in many parts of the country.

[Crown]

I must be living in a different world than you, since in my supposed Christian terrorist run America, gays have the right to marry, despite religious admonitions that they all be killed. I can make fun of Jesus, call God fake, even do porn of the J-man if I was that much of a try-hard. Just the opposite of Islamist-run states.

The thing is, he didn't claim that it was "Christian terrorist run America", he pointed out that Christians have integrated themselves into the government.

Err ... no. Read the exchange in full context;

Not much difference between Christian and Muslim terrorists when you get down to it, except in terms of window dressing and the latter, these days, being better organized.

At the end of the day, its indoctrinated assholes killing people over bigotry and old superstition.

I think the bigger difference is that the former has managed to integrate itself into the US government to a larger degree, so only the most extreme of Christian extremists feel the need to use bombs and guns. The rest are able to inflict their agenda on everyone else (with varying levels of success) through official government apparatuses.

Unless you honestly believe that The Romulan Republic was legitimately saying "Not much difference between Christians and Jihadis when you get down to it ... "

Just look at how much of a flap the Kim Davis affair was, or the continuing saga of Judge Roy Moore of Alabama. It's not like people are getting stoned for breaking religious law... but people *are* trying to enforce religious beliefs via their positions on occasion.

Of course they are, all religions lend themselves well to totalitarianism and fascism naturally. However the constant false equivalency between the actual success of doing so by modern day Christianity and modern day Islam is fucking absurd. People should die of shame for trying to do so.

[TheFeniX]

Ho boy, here we go. You can't stop vultures from click-baiting into everything:
http://www.cbs news.com/news/after-shooting-attack-in-orlando-an-unsure-e3/
I'm breaking the link for reasons. Mostly annoyance.

LOS ANGELES -- The flags outside the Electronic Entertainment Expo are flying at half-staff in tribute to the victims of the shooting attack at an Orlando gay club that left 50 dead. However, it will seemingly be business as usual inside the video game industry's annual trade show, known as E3, this week.

The weeklong event kicked off Sunday with flashy presentations featuring footage of upcoming games -- many of which depict unrelenting gun violence -- from publishers Electronic Arts and Bethesda Softworks.

EA, which has a studio in Orlando, did not directly address the shootings Sunday afternoon while hyping such games as the World War I-set military shooter "Battlefield 1" and the robot-filled sci-fi shoot-'em-up "Titanfall 2."

Chris Plante and T.C. Sottek of the technology site The Verge wrote after EA's presentation that "witnessing a sales pitch for the fun in gun violence felt strange, to say the least."

The developers on stage at Bethesda's presentation Sunday evening sported rainbow ribbons in support of the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community as they showed off games like the multiplayer shooter "Quake Champions" and the stylish assassin tale "Dishonored 2."

Microsoft, Sony, Ubisoft and the PC Gaming Show are similarly not expected to address the shooting attack or alter any content of their presentations scheduled for Monday at various venues in downtown Los Angeles.

Several publishers and developers tweeted their condolences as news of the shooting attack spread Sunday morning. EA called it "senseless and tragic."

Reggie Fils-Aime, president of Nintendo of America, said in an interview that the attack was "tremendously shocking and devastating."

"I don't know that it will directly affect the mood (at E3), but anyone who is a parent or feels they have a voice is certainly going to be thinking about how we as a country and culture move forward and address it," he said.

The trade show has long featured presentations and demonstrations of mature-rated, over-the-top games featuring photorealistic grisliness, bone-crushing violence and other high-definition gross-outs.

While a vast number of games set to be exhibited at E3 don't feature any depictions of violence, the shooter genre is among the most popular in games. Such games at E3 include Activision's futuristic military shooter "Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare" and 2K Games' period piece "Mafia III."

"The Orlando tragedy was a horrific act of terrorism and a crime of hate," the Electronic Software Association, which organizes E3, said in a statement. "Our thoughts are with the families of all those affected."

The organization said security and personnel were already in place before Sunday morning's shooting to ensure the safety of E3 attendees.

I was wondering, even though E3 is a farce, how the timing would affect news stories. Of course, it did because 24 hours news cycles and fantasy obviously = reality. At least CBS didn't make a Columbine reference, unlike the hacks over at thewrap (not giving them clicks).

"Hilarious" foot-note: Even CBS has to focus on graphics at the expense of everything else.

[Zadius]

It should be called Islamic extremism, because that's what it is. If it was an anti-gay Christian who attacked that club, I would certainly call it Christian extremism. I remember laughing at the blatantly hypocritical Bill O'Reilly when he refused to call Brevik a Christian terrorist, because "no true Christian..." yet chastising Obama for not using the term 'Islamic extremist.' Why does Obama not use that term? Because "no true Muslim..."

But does anyone believe that Obama, by not using those terms, is actually preventing bigotry from developing, even slightly? It's not like the people predisposed to bigotry are going to go, "Hmm, Fox News and CNN and everyone else calls this Islamic extremism, but I noticed Obama didn't say it, so it must not be true."

It only gives the right-wing and Trump an opportunity to say, 'look how Obama doesn't want military action, he wants to fight a war of ideas on these people who are killing us, yet he won't even be honest about what ideas we are fighting!' I think it makes Obama look weak and overly politically correct, at a time when people are very angry, and it will only help Trump. And that's not even adding the gun control issue into the debate.

[Civil War Man]

I must be living in a different world than you, since in my supposed Christian terrorist run America, gays have the right to marry, despite religious admonitions that they all be killed. I can make fun of Jesus, call God fake, even do porn of the J-man if I was that much of a try-hard. Just the opposite of Islamist-run states.

And yet gay teens are still at a significantly higher risk of committing suicide due to harassment, transgender people cannot use public bathrooms in certain sections of the country without fear of being assaulted, and there are several states where, practically speaking, a woman cannot legally get an abortion and has little to no access to birth control (removing their ability to both prevent and terminate an unwanted pregnancy). All done in the name of Christianity.

Not to mention that the whole part about gay people having the right to marry is not a given in several states, since opponents have been trying legalistic tricks to enforce de facto bans anyway, if they don't just flagrantly violate the law in order to deny licenses. And that's not getting into the culture they've cultivated where the (usually female) victim is to blame for being raped.

Their success in enacting their agenda is only really tempered because there are sections of the country where they hold little sway (mostly the west coast and northeast), and because the only thing many of them worship more than Jesus is money.

The thing is, he didn't claim that it was "Christian terrorist run America", he pointed out that Christians have integrated themselves into the government. Just look at how much of a flap the Kim Davis affair was, or the continuing saga of Judge Roy Moore of Alabama. It's not like people are getting stoned for breaking religious law... but people *are* trying to enforce religious beliefs via their positions on occasion.

My point was that Christian extremists in the US for the most part don't have to resort to organized overt terrorism. They don't run the country per se, but that doesn't make them not extremists. The only reason we don't have as many abortion clinic bombings anymore, for example, is because they've been able to use unnecessary, punitive, and byzantine regulations to make the process effectively illegal in large sections of the country.

[Patroklos]

And yet gay teens are still at a significantly higher risk of committing suicide due to harassment, transgender people cannot use public bathrooms in certain sections of the country without fear of being assaulted, and there are several states where, practically speaking, a woman cannot legally get an abortion and has little to no access to birth control (removing their ability to both prevent and terminate an unwanted pregnancy). All done in the name of Christianity.

In what state can a women not get birth control? Its BS exaggerations like this that continue to derail your rants.

[Alyrium Denryle]

And yet gay teens are still at a significantly higher risk of committing suicide due to harassment, transgender people cannot use public bathrooms in certain sections of the country without fear of being assaulted, and there are several states where, practically speaking, a woman cannot legally get an abortion and has little to no access to birth control (removing their ability to both prevent and terminate an unwanted pregnancy). All done in the name of Christianity.

In what state can a women not get birth control? Its BS exaggerations like this that continue to derail your rants.

Places like North Dakota and Alaska, it gets difficult. Not necessarily impossible, but difficult. It is a combination of religious disapproval of birth control that is legally protected in the form of "religious freedom" protections for pharmacists, and the rural nature of the state that makes for long travel distances.

There, one might find it difficult to find a pharmacist within travel range who is willing to fill the prescription.

[Grumman]

Places like North Dakota and Alaska, it gets difficult. Not necessarily impossible, but difficult. It is a combination of religious disapproval of birth control that is legally protected in the form of "religious freedom" protections for pharmacists, and the rural nature of the state that makes for long travel distances.

There, one might find it difficult to find a pharmacist within travel range who is willing to fill the prescription.

Oh no! The Christian terrorist is refusing to sell you birth control pills, and the next pharmacy is too far away! That's totally just like murdering dozens of innocent people in cold blood!

[Elheru Aran]

Not to mention that there have been many cases where pharmacists catch a case of the religions and refuse to provide birth control.

http://www.pharmacytimes.com/contributo ... ontroversy

Relevant quote:

"Pharmacists’ refusal to fill prescriptions for birth control and emergency contraception has sparked national controversy.
Such reports have surfaced in at least 25 states, according to the National Women’s Law Center (NWLC), a legal advocacy group focused on women’s issues. Many of these refusals are based on personal beliefs, rather than medical or professional concerns."

The article is from August of last year, so it's not particularly old.

Grumman, don't be a berk. Nobody is trying to say that's terrorism. It's a case of people abusing their position in order to exert their particular moral or religious beliefs upon others who don't necessarily share the same beliefs.

[bilateralrope]

Ho boy, here we go. You can't stop vultures from click-baiting into everything:
http://www.cbs news.com/news/after-shooting-attack-in-orlando-an-unsure-e3/
I'm breaking the link for reasons. Mostly annoyance.

Did CBS stop their coverage of E3 ?

Or are they doing the very thing they are complaining about ?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Places like North Dakota and Alaska, it gets difficult. Not necessarily impossible, but difficult. It is a combination of religious disapproval of birth control that is legally protected in the form of "religious freedom" protections for pharmacists, and the rural nature of the state that makes for long travel distances.

There, one might find it difficult to find a pharmacist within travel range who is willing to fill the prescription.

Oh no! The Christian terrorist is refusing to sell you birth control pills, and the next pharmacy is too far away! That's totally just like murdering dozens of innocent people in cold blood!

You asked a factual question asshole, I answered it. Do not build a strawman of my position and set it on fire.

[Patroklos]

And yet gay teens are still at a significantly higher risk of committing suicide due to harassment, transgender people cannot use public bathrooms in certain sections of the country without fear of being assaulted, and there are several states where, practically speaking, a woman cannot legally get an abortion and has little to no access to birth control (removing their ability to both prevent and terminate an unwanted pregnancy). All done in the name of Christianity.

In what state can a women not get birth control? Its BS exaggerations like this that continue to derail your rants.

Places like North Dakota and Alaska, it gets difficult. Not necessarily impossible, but difficult. It is a combination of religious disapproval of birth control that is legally protected in the form of "religious freedom" protections for pharmacists, and the rural nature of the state that makes for long travel distances.

There, one might find it difficult to find a pharmacist within travel range who is willing to fill the prescription.

You are restricting yourself to drug based birth control given the conversation thus far why? However, though such examples exist, I believe this is still BS unless you want to show me evidence some significant fraction of pharmacies (your article did not do this) in any state do not sell such forms.

We are not restricted to those forms, though, at least not not if CivlWarMan is to have a point. Unless you want to show that Alaskan gas stations don't carry condoms (not to mention 711s, Walgreens, etc) your arbitrary scoping down of the form just highlights the extent of the now very forced exaggeration.

The fact is of the Christian cabel which is supposedly running the theocratic government of the US, very few of them actually oppose birth control. And the largest sect that does, Catholicism, is historically excluded from government by the rest. Its a stupid idea all around.

[Khaat]

To paraphrase: "We aren't taking away all your rights based on our religion, just some of them."

Any is too many.

[Patroklos]

You referring to gun rights, yes? These conversations are usually not about whether to take rights away or not as an absolute, they are usually about excusing the taking away of whatever rights someone personally finds unimportant. There are few true civil rights warriors out there.

[Alyrium Denryle]

You are restricting yourself to drug based birth control given the conversation thus far why? However, though such examples exist, I believe this is still BS unless you want to show me evidence some significant fraction of pharmacies (your article did not do this) in any state do not sell such forms.

Because women should be able to control their own fertility without having to convince a man to put a condom on? Because hormonal birth control is the most reliable form of contraception in terms of preventing pregnancy? Because there are uses for birth control other than preventing pregnancy, like smoothing out the negative side-effects of menstruation?

The list goes on.

However, no one keeps records of which pharmacies have pharmacists who refuse to dispense birth control or emergency contraceptives (Plan B)

Lets take a state where such laws exist. Arizona, dominated by mormons and catholics demographically.

In the greater phoenix area, there are enough pharmacies that you likely wont have a problem unless the pharmacist refuses to transfer your script. However, if you go to a place like the Globe area, there are all of three pharmacies, if you have an issue there, the nearest pharmacy is two hours away in Apache Junction which is a phoenix suburb.

The fact of the matter is, I dont actually need to give you the fucking numbers to prove where and to what degree that sort of thing is a problem. The mere potential that it could be a problem in 25 states that have single stoplight towns dotted all over the landscape (like Texas) should not fucking happen.

[MKSheppard]

It is a possibility given certain lines of research, but also completely fucking irrelevant and yes, it is offensive because it amounts to blaming us for our own oppression.

A non-trivial possibility.

I know, GAWKER, but eh

Early Sunday morning, Omar Mateen shot and killed 49 people at a gay nightclub in Orlando, perpetrating the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history. Mateen, his father explained the next day, had repeatedly been angered by the sight of two men kissing. But according to witnesses, Mateen was also a regular at the club and exchanged messages with at least one gay man on a gay dating app.

“It’s the same guy,” Chris Callen, who performs under the name Kristina McLaughlin, told the Canadian Press. “He’s been going to this bar for at least three years.”

Ty Smith, who also goes by the name Aries, also said he’d seen Mateen being escorted drunk from the club, Pulse, on multiple occasions.

“(He’d get) really, really drunk... He couldn’t drink when he was at home—around his wife, or family. His father was really strict... He used to bitch about it,” Smith told the Canadian Press.

“Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent,” Smith also explained to the Orlando Sentinel, which spoke with at least four clubgoers who remembered seeing Mateen at Pulse at least a dozen times. “We didn’t really talk to him a lot, but I remember him saying things about his dad at times... He told us he had a wife and child.”

Both Callen and Smith, who are married, tell the Canadian Press they stopped speaking to Mateen after he threatened them with a knife, apparently after someone made a joke about religion.

“He ended up pulling a knife,” Callen said. “He said if he ever messed with him again, you know how it’ll turn out.”

Mateen, who was married in 2009, was abusive and unstable, his ex-wife says. They were married for just a few months before her parents rescued her from their home in Florida, leaving most of her belongings behind. It’s still unclear if he was married again after their divorce was finalized in 2011.

MSNBC host Chris Hayes also says he spoke to a man who claims both he and a friend received messages from Mateen via a gay dating app. The full story is set to air tonight on Hayes’ show, All In.

Not actually unsurprising from a jihadi psychology standpoint, e.g. all sins are forgiven etc if you die a martyr etc whatever.

[Khaat]

You referring to gun rights, yes? These conversations are usually not about whether to take rights away or not as an absolute, they are usually about excusing the taking away of whatever rights I personally find unimportant. There are few true civil rights warriors out there.

Personally, I like guns. But I also believe there is no way I could ever be in a position to overthrow my government through force of my personal bear arms (RAWR!), so I already understand the original idea is out of time. But, I still get to vote, so it really shouldn't come to that. Oh, hey! Another right that is stripped away from those who commit gross violations of the law and public welfare! Maybe that's by design!

I think ... oh, crap, what's his name? The Australian comic, Jim Jefferies had it right: the only real argument for having guns is "Fuck off! I like guns!" and that's really enough. Limitations on the 2nd are entirely legit, even if there are knee-jerk photo-op non-solutions to the underlying problems of limited prosperity, education, and cultural opportunities experienced by a growing percentage of the population. Gotta fix the systemic pressures, not the random, limited releases that grab headlines. But, hey: HEADLINES!

What I want to know: was this guy really on an FBI watch-list, and if so, how did he get the clearances he had? I could get added to a no-fly list for disagreeing with a flight attendant having a bad day, but this guy had the FBI watching and gets firearms/security licenses? Is this like the police you see on the side of the road when you're speeding who don't chase and ticket you because it isn't "sexy crime!" enough?

Other: after the initial shooting, you don't post "#imwithstupid", unless it's as a final "fuck you" to the nut-balls out there (on both extreme sides of the fence.)

Patroklos: if they're "unimportant rights", why bother taking them away? Why waste your time and mine, if you don't care?

[Patroklos]

What I want to know: was this guy really on an FBI watch-list, and if so, how did he get the clearances he had? I could get added to a no-fly list for disagreeing with a flight attendant having a bad day, but this guy had the FBI watching and gets firearms/security licenses? Is this like the police you see on the side of the road when you're speeding who don't chase and ticket you because it isn't "sexy crime!" enough?

He was questioned by the FBI, but by their own report there was nothing actionable based on whatever investigation they did. I don't know about you, but I think its a good thing that when law enforcement investigates a citizen and finds nothing they can't curtail your civil rights just in case.

I also believe the no flight list is an aberration regarding such things. It was created in haste and pushed through with a whole host of other reactionary proposals post 9/11 which accounts for its arbitrary nature outside the controls we would normally expect for such things.

Patroklos: if they're "unimportant rights", why bother taking them away? Why waste your time and mine, if you don't care?

As in not important enough to counterweight this other thing I want to happen.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. The no-fly list isn't really connected to much else. In most cases we'd call that a good thing, since the no-fly list is riddled with false positives and getting yourself off it is nearly impossible.

But then something like this happens and people go "he was on the no-fly list? WHY WASN'T HE STOPPED!?" The answer is "remember all the literally thousands or tens of thousands of people whose civil rights would have been violated in the past fifteen years if everyone on the no-fly list was prohibited from acting in a trusted job or prohibited from getting a weapons permit."

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah. The no-fly list isn't really connected to much else. In most cases we'd call that a good thing, since the no-fly list is riddled with false positives and getting yourself off it is nearly impossible.

But then something like this happens and people go "he was on the no-fly list? WHY WASN'T HE STOPPED!?" The answer is "remember all the literally thousands or tens of thousands of people whose civil rights would have been violated in the past fifteen years if everyone on the no-fly list was prohibited from acting in a trusted job or prohibited from getting a weapons permit."

Which then raises the question of whether the no-fly list is really necessary or not, but that's a discussion for another time and place, I think...

It comes back to what Bean said earlier-- there are always going to be some incidents that are *unpreventable* because the people causing them either work *within* the law or *outside* it in ways that cannot be reasonably prevented. The issue is how to reduce those particular occurrences without overstepping either governmental authority or the rights of normal, law-abiding people.

[MKSheppard]

Wish 50 dead & 53 injured would do something about guns.

The reason we fight so hard, is because we saw what happened in other countries. Australia? Near total ban on everything fun from 1996 onwards; and they're bitching about lever actions -- a 1860 technology -- being too dangerous Link.

So um. NOPE.JPG.

[Grumman]

Yeah. The no-fly list isn't really connected to much else. In most cases we'd call that a good thing, since the no-fly list is riddled with false positives and getting yourself off it is nearly impossible.

But then something like this happens and people go "he was on the no-fly list? WHY WASN'T HE STOPPED!?" The answer is "remember all the literally thousands or tens of thousands of people whose civil rights would have been violated in the past fifteen years if everyone on the no-fly list was prohibited from acting in a trusted job or prohibited from getting a weapons permit."

Yeah, trying to use the no-fly list as an excuse to curtail people's rights without any kind of due process is authoritarian fuckery. I'm looking at you, Clinton. The better question is what step between his ex-wife claiming he was physically abusive and him conducting this shooting failed. Because assuming she's telling the truth, the Domestic Violence Offender Gun Ban exists for the purpose of preventing people like him from owning firearms.