Russian missles take out 2 American Battle Tanks

[Stormbringer]

I doubt the Russians are so eager to test their systems they'd kick of a major international incident. Bush's reaction to any weapon's sales alone would be enough to give thems serious pause. If they are supplying weapons, it'd probably be older weapons that are much more common on the international market. Putin's smarter than to get his ass nailed with shenigans like that.

The Russians no quite well how their weapons work- performance characteristics can be measured etc. As for supplying older weapons, I really don't see the point- the Iraqis have plenty of ATGMs as it is.

Like I said, if.

[Axis Kast]

That's unfortunate. We need a heavy MBT of the Abrams type from my point of view. It's just too useful.

And it would appear to me that we also require an ARENA-type system if the largest threat is from man-portable missiles.

[Vympel]

The latest Russian RPG-7 variant, the RPG-7V1. The smaller round can penetrate not less than 600mm RHA. The larger round, 750mm RHA, and that's including explosive reactive armor.

Note, however, that even though the front of a tank may not be 750mm thick (duh), all tanks exploit tricks to have an equivalent that is many times higher. The front of the T-80U and T-90 are both immune to these rounds. Sides- not so much, naturally.



The nightmare RPG, the RPG-29 Vampir. If the Iraqis had these- well, let's just be glad they don't. Penetration is marked at an extremely conservative 750mm RHA, but it's actually much higher (though both the PG-7VR and PG-29V are 105mm, the PG-29V is a heavier round, and the front armor of the T-90 actually proved vulnerable to it without ERA).

[Vympel]

That's unfortunate. We need a heavy MBT of the Abrams type from my point of view. It's just too useful.

And it would appear to me that we also require an ARENA-type system if the largest threat is from man-portable missiles.

Hopefully, experience garnered from this war will be put into re-examing the FCS concept- away from a 20-ton tin can.

One problem with Arena is that it's a danger to accompanying infantry- a magazine will fire to destroy an incoming ATGM and spray your escorts with shrapnel- regardless, in the Abrams case this isn't much of an issue as the engine exhaust is far too hot for infantry to accompany anyway.

[Axis Kast]

So let's put an ARENA or Shortas system into effect I say.

And is a T-80UM or T-90 with ERA equivalent to an M1A2 SEP in terms of protection? How about an M1A1?

[Vympel]

Like I said, if.

Frankly, in agreement with Axis Kast (shock fucking HORROR), Putin should shut up- the US will win in Iraq, come hell or high water, and it won't do Russian interests any good by making it difficult for America. Then again, I was of the opinion that if Bush wanted Russian support he should've just offered to pay off Iraq's substantial debts to Russia.

[phongn]

So let's put an ARENA or Shortas system into effect I say.

ARENA is a danger to the nearby infantry, as Vympel has stated. Some time in the future we may emplace some sort of antimissile laser onboard. SHOTAS is also useless against RPGs.

And is a T-80UM or T-90 with ERA equivalent to an M1A2 SEP in terms of protection? How about an M1A1?

I don't think so (for the latter, at least not the M1A1 HA varients)

[Axis Kast]

But as Vymepl pointed out, infantry can't piggy-back anyway.

I of course like the laser idea though.

[Vympel]

So let's put an ARENA or Shortas system into effect I say.

Shtora is much easier to do- and with US technology, would be less bulky (the Russian inventors of Shtora are already working on smaller jammer emitters- the current ones are the size of a regular IR lamp as on the older, non-thermal imager Russian tanks). Also, some General Dynamics reps at one of the Russian arms shows displayed a lot of interest in Arena, as I recall ...

And is a T-80UM or T-90 with ERA equivalent to an M1A2 SEP in terms of protection? How about an M1A1?

In both cases, I'd say no- purely by virtue of their much lighter weight (49 tons versus almost 70 in the case of the M1A2)- but they are quite able to withstand fire from any weapon on the battlefield along the frontal arc (except top-attack weapons, like any tank) thanks to their Kontakts-V ERA, which comes standard- this was proven in US Army tests on a T-72 to be able to withstand 120mm fire along the frontal arc.

[Vympel]

ARENA is a danger to the nearby infantry, as Vympel has stated. Some time in the future we may emplace some sort of antimissile laser onboard. SHOTAS is also useless against RPGs.

Lol- you've been playing C&C Generals, haven't you

[Axis Kast]

But if Shorta isn't enough, we should try an ARENA.

And I always thought that an idea from James Bond was cool. A sort of mini-CIWS in the form of a high-powered automatic shotgun. Not that I'm sure this is feasible given speeds involved.

And you're saying a T-72 with ERA is immune to an M1A2 SEP cannon round?

[Sea Skimmer]

So let's put an ARENA or Shortas system into effect I say.

And is a T-80UM or T-90 with ERA equivalent to an M1A2 SEP in terms of protection? How about an M1A1?

Over the frontal arc with heavy ERA its superior, but the armor its self is inferior. The M1 beats it on flank and rear protection. Part of this is because the M1 is built totally out of RAH armor

[Vympel]

And you're saying a T-72 with ERA is immune to an M1A2 SEP cannon round?

Yup. The penetrator shatters from the force of the explosion.

[phongn]

ARENA is a danger to the nearby infantry, as Vympel has stated. Some time in the future we may emplace some sort of antimissile laser onboard. SHOTAS is also useless against RPGs.

Lol- you've been playing C&C Generals, haven't you

Yes, but I'm actually being serious here. The US has serious interest in laser programmes (ABL, SBL, ATL, F-35, THEL/MTHEL, etc), and for plinking ATMs you don't need an exceptionally powerful one. Granted, we wouldn't see such a system for years, but it would be interesting.

(And yeah, C&C:G takes place about 20 years in the future, but it's still a bit eerie playing the USA mission @ the Seige of Baghdad)

[Axis Kast]

That's not good. So now T-72s are essentially immune to our tanks if given the correct defense. Now this is only a one-shot thing, right? If we hit them once, the ERA goes off, and the next shot kills, yes? And can these tanks hit us from the front and get a kill?

(Is C&C Generals good, btw?)

[phongn]

That's not good. So now T-72s are essentially immune to our tanks if given the correct defense. Now this is only a one-shot thing, right? If we hit them once, the ERA goes off, and the next shot kills, yes? And can these tanks hit us from the front and get a kill?

They aren't immune, but they're not one-shot kills like the monkey-model tanks we see in Iraq.

(Is C&C Generals good, btw?)

It's fun, but it's really C&C in name only. EA Pacific made it, and there's quite a few differences between Westwood's and EAP's style.

[Axis Kast]

I see. Hm. Not good from our point of view. Do you think we'll upgun to a 140mm model? I've heard it spoken about.

(Is C&C Generals good though? As in worth my money?)

[phongn]

I see. Hm. Not good from our point of view. Do you think we'll upgun to a 140mm model? I've heard it spoken about.

Maybe, but it's unlikely at the moment.

(Is C&C Generals good though? As in worth my money?)

It's fun, I'll call it that. It's not worthy of the name, but it is fun, especially multiplayer. The SP campaign is kinda disconnected, it's just a series of missions you fight without anything truly linking them together.

[Vympel]

I see. Hm. Not good from our point of view. Do you think we'll upgun to a 140mm model? I've heard it spoken about.

Probably not- 120-125mm is really the limit I hear, though the next generation Russian paradigm breaker is reported to have a 152mm piece- I don't think it'll really happen though. The FCS will instead use a 105-120mm gun with advanced propellant/ ignition tech to achieve high pressures and other such nifty things of which I am ignorant of ... everyone would probably go down that road.

(Is C&C Generals good though? As in worth my money?)

It's a renter, not a keeper. Each side gets only 7 missions. That's only 21. Too short. But it's fun.

[Sea Skimmer]

I see. Hm. Not good from our point of view. Do you think we'll upgun to a 140mm model? I've heard it spoken about.

The US Army has no interest in the NATO 140mm project but the ability of heavy ERA to defeat existing sabot rounds has been know to it since 1997. LOSAT can defeat any tank protected by it, but its utility is limited.

Rather then going with a big gun the US Army is more likely to scale up Javalin, and a proposal for an extended range version likely with a larger warhead has been around for years. Attacking from above, ERA wont stop it and it could be used by light and medium forces as well.

[Axis Kast]

I always thought that an idea from James Bond was cool. A sort of mini-CIWS in the form of a high-powered automatic shotgun. Not that I'm sure this is feasible given speeds involved. Anyone?

[phongn]

I always thought that an idea from James Bond was cool. A sort of mini-CIWS in the form of a high-powered automatic shotgun. Not that I'm sure this is feasible given speeds involved. Anyone?

I doubt that'd work

[Ted]

I heard that MBT's have shit protection in the back, that a 14.5mm HMG can penetrate and take out the engine, true?

[Ted]

Whats the status of LP research? Any date as to when it could be feasible to put in service?

[Vympel]

I heard that MBT's have shit protection in the back, that a 14.5mm HMG can penetrate and take out the engine, true?

Hmmm ... not sure. I doubt it.