WAR: Eurasia vs. America

[Sea Skimmer]

B can defend its self from heavy attacks. But without sufficent naval power it has little hope of ever winning.

Slighty off-topic here: Sea Skimmer, have you read Seapower as Strategy yet?

Never heard of it

[phongn]

Never heard of it

Friedman's book on, well, Seapower as Strategy. Pretty good; I skimmed at the university library.

[phongn]

With whose amphibious forces?

Russisch Well, I mean that the B. co can provide enough fleet to defend the invasion of Britain channels, although it's not enough to battle on itself against American or British. A small spot on sea could be turned into a well-defended displacement.

The Russian amphibious force is not up to the task of defeating the British Isles. For that matter, their fleet isn't up to the task of real offensive operations: most of NATO was optimized for defense against the Soviet fleet (except the USN, of course).

Crossing the Channel is a dicey operation.

Agree. But the La-Manche is small: it can be crossed by air, and fast. It depends on who will react faster.

Airborne operations may be shot down by SAM batteries (the US will probably flood the UK with PAC3s) and the RAF. Also dicey. Keeping them supplied is another troubling issue.

And probably a US victory.

Good point, although it's really unknown. You know, Japan was the supreme naval power of the world by the time of 1941. But the US defeated it so utterly...

Japan was not the supreme naval power of the world in 1941. Not by far. With the correlation of forces at hand, it isn't an unknown, it's a near certainty that the A-C fleet will win. They have the neccessary offensive firepower, the B-C fleet doesn.

The integration of Russian and Franco-German technologies will also take quite a bit of time

Remember we also have the Koreans, which can be at least a bit useful in the Pacific.

You have North Korea, which can be tied down by the ROK. Neither of them have any really powerful navies - Japan, which is a presumably A-C power, does.

the integration of the A-Coalition is already present and accounted for.

A point. If they make the sudden strike, unlikely B co. could then conquer them, although obvious it can defend itself. If the B. co. makes the sudden strike... Oh... too bad for peace, but good if the B's are willing to win ultimately on enemy territory.

If the B-C strikes first, they still can't take out the A-C. They might be able to hit the UK and Spain (difficult), but Japan and the United States are virtually untouchable.

[phongn]

Wrong, I think. The blockade would do nothing, since in war-time the continental powers fall under the Principle of Authority. They have self-sufficient production. Europe and Russia are the creators of genious, while China and, again Russia, can supply the war with resources. Actually, huge resource capabilities of the former USSR countries will be explored and used in emergency, but what will the US use, since they have run out of most of resources? This is also a point.

And how are you going to move all of these resources? Train? That's not a very efficient way of doing things - ships are how you move bulk cargo, and in the sea, the B-C is screwed. You're also grossly oversimplifying the staggering task of exploiting the various countries' untapped resource wealth.

And what about missiles? If you don't mean nukes, then silly: missiles failed to eliminate Saddam (although much has been bragged in the first days), why should they now succeed in eliminating important objects?

There's a difference in eliminating Saddam and using missiles to hit strategic targets in Europe.

How puny the naval power of the B. co, it could have at least cope with the Mediterranean.

The French Mediterranean Fleet and the Russian Black Sea Fleet are no match for the US Sixth Fleet.

[K. A. Pital]

phongn

The Russian amphibious force is not up to the task of defeating the British Isles. For that matter, their fleet isn't up to the task of real offensive operations: most of NATO was optimized for defense against the Soviet fleet (except the USN, of course).

Exactly what I said, they will defend the supply lines for the invasion.

Also dicey. Keeping them supplied is another troubling issue.

The Russian AF can use heavy transport planes of the Il series to supply the forces once they are secure and established.

Japan was not the supreme naval power of the world in 1941. Not by far.

Maybe... look here, at the Pacific Fleets count:
Japan: 10 AC, 10 battleships, 18 battlecruisers, 18 LC, 113 destroyers, 63 submarines.
In comparison:
The USA: 3 AC, 9 battleships, 13 battlecruisers, 11 LC, 80 destroyers, 56 submarines.
The Allied total Pacific power: 3 AC, 11 battleships, 14 battlecruisers, 100 destroyers, 69 submarines.
So what? Is Japan not the supreme naval power in the world in 1941?

Japan, which is a presumably A-C power, does.

Does Japan really have the power? What is it?

but Japan and the United States are virtually untouchable.

Japan can be kicked if whe use the Chinese and Korean platzdarm.
The USA... hard... very hard... impossible, I have to admit. Only if war will last for a few years.

And how are you going to move all of these resources? Train? That's not a very efficient way of doing things - ships are how you move bulk cargo

Wait, are we not in Eurasia? Of course by train or truck.

using missiles to hit strategic targets in Europe.

Then explain, WHAT will you hit with these missiles?

The French Mediterranean Fleet and the Russian Black Sea Fleet are no match for the US Sixth Fleet.

They don't pretend to be - they just secure the waters at a small region.

[Axis Kast]

The Russians will be immediately reliant on a lot of equipment removed from storage. Their T-90 tank isn’t available yet and most of the T-80s will never get out of the country on account of the inability of Russian allies to deploy them effectively. They’ll mobile a few hundred front-line fighters of the Su-27, MiG-31, and MiG-29 types. These will of course be effectively countered by the far superior Eurofighter Typhoons and F-15E Strike Eagles of Coalition fame. There’s no way the Russians are going to be able to swamp the British isles. Not only is an amphibious operation impossible – a single US fleet combined with British radar and land-based air cover will annihilate an opposing fleet -, but aside from the damage dealt by strikes of the sort stipulated by Tom Clancy in Red Storm Rising, the British will be fine. And most Russian efforts will be focused on the allied fleet or air command, not industrial sites.

The Chinese have no hope of doing much. Not only would they fail to cross to Taiwan, but we’d ensure the safety of Japan as well. As was said before, the South Koreans can hold off Kim fairly well. We’ll have to watch that our 37,000 troops aren’t slaughtered in the meantime, but everything else should be fine. Now Japan relies so much on foreign trade that I figure it’ll be hard-hit by the war – China and Russia will be better off -, but their strategic position leaves Beijing in a horrible position from which to project any kind of power. Especially if we get the Indians on our side. Their troops are far superior to the Chinese at this point in time.

We can hold our own for sure. Will we invade? We might launch a strike through Spain and try to land on the Channel coast in France. The French, Belgians, and Germans – with Russian support – will make it a tough fight, but the US/UK can take it for sure. Especially because we’ve got all those lovely cruise missiles and a huge degree of air superiority over all involved. That’s especially if the Canadians, Australians, and Italians become involved with us.

I can’t see the US falling to an invasion anytime soon. There’s no way to hit a lot of the Coalition A targets effectively from the Coalition B point of view.

[Vympel]

The Russians will be immediately reliant on a lot of equipment removed from storage. Their T-90 tank isn’t available yet and most of the T-80s will never get out of the country on account of the inability of Russian allies to deploy them effectively. They’ll mobile a few hundred front-line fighters of the Su-27, MiG-31, and MiG-29 types.

The MiG-31 force will probably stay behind, in the air defense role as it has always done.

These will of course be effectively countered by the far superior Eurofighter Typhoons and F-15E Strike Eagles of Coalition fame.

Germany will have it's Eurofighters, and France will have it's formidable air force- the new Rafale, and it's Mirage 2000 series. The F-15E Beagle isn't an optimal aerial combatant- it's airframe has been strengthened for bombing work. That's if this scenario is future tense- because now noone has Eurofighter- in which case the French have Rafale but the Brits don't have anything effective enough.

There’s no way the Russians are going to be able to swamp the British isles. Not only is an amphibious operation impossible – a single US fleet combined with British radar and land-based air cover will annihilate an opposing fleet -, but aside from the damage dealt by strikes of the sort stipulated by Tom Clancy in Red Storm Rising, the British will be fine. And most Russian efforts will be focused on the allied fleet or air command, not industrial sites.

The Russians have a formidable strategic bomber force, and if we're talking future tense, their Kh-55 nuclear cruise missile stocks are being partially converted to Kh-555 conventional version- better yet, the new Kh-101 cruise missile (5,000km range, stealth, extremely high accuracy) was test fired from a Tu-160 several years ago. They could cause serious damage.

We can hold our own for sure. Will we invade? We might launch a strike through Spain and try to land on the Channel coast in France. The French, Belgians, and Germans – with Russian support – will make it a tough fight, but the US/UK can take it for sure.

Define 'take it'?

Especially because we’ve got all those lovely cruise missiles and a huge degree of air superiority over all involved. That’s especially if the Canadians, Australians, and Italians become involved with us.

American aircraft have yet to face *modern* European and Russian SAM systems in a fight- they will extract a serious toll IMO.

[Axis Kast]

If this is at present, Germany doesn't have much yet and the French and Russians together can't hold up against the USAF and British together. A Typhoon (?) is still a formidable aircraft. British pilots are most likely superior to their German counterparts. And the Rafale and Mirage 2000 are good, but not avaliable in sufficient numbers to turn back the US.

I agree we'll take losses. The Russians will hammer Britain a great deal and probably sink an American carrier or two - along with dozens of support ships. But they won't be able to invade the UK or stop the counter-strikes. We can produce a whole hell of a lot more a whole hell of a lot faster than can the Russians, French, and Germans.

We have yet to face modern systems, but the same can be said for their own forces as well.

[K. A. Pital]

Their T-90 tank isn’t available yet and most of the T-80s will never get out of the country on account of the inability of Russian allies to deploy them effectively.

What the hell? Of course they will be: the T-90 is available and the T-80 will get out easily (to Europe or any point in Eurasia).

There’s no way the Russians are going to be able to swamp the British isles.

Did you ever get the point that it's not Russians, but French-Russia-Germany as a Coalition?

but the US/UK can take it for sure.

What? Mind you, land descents and watch soldiers die fighting with the AFP bunkers. The descent without air support (because the sky is guarded by SAM systems, as Vympel alredy noted) will be crushed and thrown back in a matter of days if not matter of hours. Spain will be defeated by a VP attack, while teir military is small (yet advanced), and cannot defend a wide front. See? No way you get into B.

British pilots are most likely superior to their German counterparts.

Germans and French (and Russians) outdo them.

but not avaliable in sufficient numbers to turn back the US

Cry with blood, the SAM will get your aircraft down.

or stop the counter-strikes.

Maybe they will fail (most likely) with any water invasion, but they'll get you off, that's for sure

We can produce a whole hell of a lot more a whole hell of a lot faster than can the Russians, French, and Germans.

You didn't notice the resource comment made by me? Sorry, you run out of resources while we only begin to explore them.

[Axis Kast]

The T-90 is just being produced now. The Russians have something like three in actual service. The T-80 is also going to be difficult to export. Many of the B countries are going to want to use their own tanks - the LeClerc, Leopard 2, etc. Why retrain on Russian rigs? They'll only fight less well.

Only the Russians really have the surface capability to hit the Russian isles. The French navy, no matter how modern, will be sunk fairly quickly. Ditto on any German vessels. We'll have to watch for submarines; nothing more.

A has a better chance of invading through Spain than does B of conquering the British isles. Can Spain hold? If we funnel enough aid, yes. If not, it's no huge loss. Most of their troops will be evacuated to the British isles anyway.

[Axis Kast]

The Germans have less hours on modern aircraft and less hours in the air period. The Russians, while advanced, have a similar problem.

You think PAC3s will be any less effective?

Canada, the United States of America (Alaska), et al. have plenty of their own resources. South Africa's with us, pal.

The Russians and Chinese will never be able to crank up production to any decent levels before the war ends. It's that fast.

[K. A. Pital]

Axis, why are Leopard and Leclerc worse than T-80? They are probably superior (OK, the Leo is, not Leclerc). And you seem they will not accept additional help? Huh, silly.

Why retrain on Russian rigs?

WHAT? Russia will just send a force for the attack, that's all.

We'll have to watch for submarines; nothing more.

Submarines are shit. AC is all.

A has a better chance of invading through Spain

Spain is kicked.

than does B of conquering the British isles

B will not do foolish things. It will wait. Some time. But then, it's dicey not impossible.

If we funnel enough aid, yes.

No. Forces of continental powers are deployed faster than across-the-sea force.

[K. A. Pital]

Mind you, Axis, you don't know what war emergency is. USSR exploited resources in matter of month, speeding up production. The USA was able to knock in only a few years later, although they compensated greatly.

[Axis Kast]

Russia will try to pull huge quantities of T-72 and T-64 MBTs out of storage and put them into use with crews from both the Federation and Europe proper. This is especially true if the Germany or French armies need to increase in size quickly but lack equipment of their own at the given time. Hell the British will probably follow their example and pull a few Chieftains out of storage for upgunning on the Israeli model.

Russia will send a force, yes.

Submarines are “shit?” Okay, you keep thinking that while we sink your surface fleet and bombard Moscow from afar with cruise missiles fired in the White Sea.

Spain is a battleground. It’s easier for B to gain a victory yes but not preordained. That is especially true if we pump a few divisions in there early and keep up the air defense. Canadian, American, British, and Australian troops are at least equal to the French, Germans, and Russians.

B will never conquer the British Isles. We’d make them a garrison.

Continental forces are deployed faster, but there’s so much more land to cover and defend.

[Axis Kast]

The USSR no longer exists. Russia is a shadow of what it once was.

[Vympel]

The T-90 is just being produced now. The Russians have something like three in actual service.

200-500 actually. It has been in low-rate, keep the factories open production since 1993. There's even an improved T-90M variant, with new welded turret, and improved heavy ERA coverage.

The T-80 is also going to be difficult to export. Many of the B countries are going to want to use their own tanks - the LeClerc, Leopard 2, etc. Why retrain on Russian rigs? They'll only fight less well.

I don't see why they need export- Russia has plenty of men to man all it's tanks.

Only the Russians really have the surface capability to hit the Russian isles. The French navy, no matter how modern, will be sunk fairly quickly. Ditto on any German vessels. We'll have to watch for submarines; nothing more.

German diesel subs could be a real bitch. The Russian ones too.

[K. A. Pital]

Axis Cast
See, USSR is no more but we have acces to the resources it had. They are all still there, in the ground. All the factories and elevators are there. Come and dig. And we will

Russia will try to pull huge quantities of T-72 and T-64 MBTs out of storage and put them into use with crews from both the Federation and Europe proper.

Russia will use ALL and simply get anyone who messes with Europe kicked. Sorry.

Submarines are “shit?” Okay, you keep thinking that while we sink your surface fleet and bombard Moscow from afar with cruise missiles fired in the White Sea.

So can we, that is of little strategic importance. Read the sub debate in the Skimmer vs. Me thread and the Sd. net comment on subs.

Canadian, American, British, and Australian troops are at least equal to the French, Germans, and Russians.

Equal? We kick you up just with NUMBERS, if not with superior training.

We’d make them a garrison.

If B is quick enough, it's possible to conquer them before you come.

but there’s so much more land to cover and defend

Haven't I said the words Ostwall and Anlantikwall? Europe has defences all over it. You will be beaten.

[Ted]

One thing is that Canada is used as a trainging ground for European countries.

The British Commonwealth Air Training Program has become the NATO ATP, with Germany, Denmark and other countries sending planes to Canada for training, and armies get sent to Canada, maily tank divs though, for the wide open spaces.

[K. A. Pital]

Ted
We're having troops evacuated I think, since the A. has it's troops evacuated from Europe to Spain/GB.
All
Note on war production: while the US needs produced tanks and other delivered to Eurasia, Europe produces right on place. Given the puny 22 tanks a day and some 15 planes a day from a train factory (the output which was achieved in WWII), we'll have them supply lots of AFVs and such really fast.
Spain is doomed in any case. Wide-front vector prime on Spain and it will ultimately fall. Then take a vector on Britain: try to mess with air force a bit, so we an secure at least one descent. They will be secnding ships: but our ones are nearer.
We have AC and submarines at the place. Bad, but sufficient.

[meNNis]

Stas Bush, What The Fuck is wrong with you, saying the US has run out of resources? LOL!! im assuming youre talking about natural ones, yes? Get your facts straight before you go bumbling about with points that prove your stupidity and nothing else.

[Axis Kast]

200-500 actually. It has been in low-rate, keep the factories open production since 1993. There's even an improved T-90M variant, with new welded turret, and improved heavy ERA coverage.

I thought that was the T-80. This changes the equation only in minimal terms however. The M1As and Challenger series are around in sufficient force to counter large-scale deployments on Russia’s part.

I don't see why they need export- Russia has plenty of men to man all it's tanks.

A lot of the European armies will be itching to put new men in their ranks. They’ll raise troops before they can build the equipment. Russia’s got it stockpiled out of the wazoo.

German diesel subs could be a real bitch. The Russian ones too.

Agreed.

See, USSR is no more but we have acces to the resources it had. They are all still there, in the ground. All the factories and elevators are there. Come and dig.

Canada and Alaska are similarly resource-rich. And don’t forget South Africa or Australia. The later is extremely wealthy.

Russia will use ALL and simply get anyone who messes with Europe kicked. Sorry.

Little difference between conscript crews.

Equal? We kick you up just with NUMBERS, if not with superior training.

The United States is far more populous than Russia at this point in time. The French and Germans won’t be able to raise enough troops to do too much damage numerically since our weight (with Britain, Australia, Canada, and Spain or Italy) is greater even with Russia put into the mix. The Chinese can’t help you. They’ve not got the experience or the know-how.

If B is quick enough, it's possible to conquer them before you come.

Unlikely that you will be. We deploy faster than your forces anyway.

Haven't I said the words Ostwall and Anlantikwall? Europe has defences all over it. You will be beaten.

Set-piece defenses. Easily bombarded from afar.

[Axis Kast]

The French will have, at best, a pair of aircraft carriers. The British have three, the Americans nine or twelve (I can't recall). You might be able to count on one older Russian vessel. You'll be swamped yourselves before you get within range. We'll lose a lot of ships, but you'll be worse-off.

And aside from Spain, you couldn't do much to us. We'd certainly hold out in Portugal and then counter-attack. And that excludes a flank thrust from Italy.

[K. A. Pital]

meNNis

You're saving oil, that is.

Axis Kast

Set-piece defenses. Easily bombarded from afar.

There is a bunker network which can easily deliver from Berlin to Poland. There is a network in France, although less advanced. Stalin's bunkers after the war are not yet wholly explored.

I thought that was the T-80. This changes the equation only in minimal terms however.

Wha-at? Minimal terms? 200 tanks instead 3...

The M1As and Challenger series are around in sufficient force to counter large-scale deployments on Russia’s part.

Delive them to Europe, we have the Leopards, T-[x], Leclercs and SPA kick them. Deliver to Russia, we have T-[x] and SPA kick them.

And don’t forget South Africa or Australia. The later is extremely wealthy.

One question: are the factories there, ready for work?

The United States is far more populous than Russia at this point in time.

Don't bullshit me! I was talking about Spain, not US. And particularu in Spain, we'll out number you.

The French and Germans won’t be able to raise enough troops to do too much damage numerically since our weight (with Britain, Australia, Canada, and Spain or Italy) is greater even with Russia put into the mix. The Chinese can’t help you. They’ve not got the experience or the know-how.

What a lie. Raise troops? Spain and Italy will fall instantly, I suppose, but then what troops will you get? Australians overseas? Thanks. We got a shitload of Russians right here.

We deploy faster than your forces anyway.

Why is that? We deploy no worse than you, if not better.

[Colonel Olrik]

Spain and Italy will fall instantly

Of course they will. No matter that the disproportion in forces is much smaller than in the present Iraqi war, still going on, and that we already have many american resources in military bases (for example, Azores)

What do you think we are? French? That we'll welcome the invaders with open arms? Our countryside is hell to dominate, chains of mountains which will have their tunnels blown and lots of very large rivers with bridges that will no longer be there. By what miracle of technology will the glorious Russian Army steamroll us before reinforcements arrive? Even if you conquer a sizeable piece of territory, Portugal and the neighbouring territory would me made a stronghold if the will for that existed, long before you army gets there.

[K. A. Pital]

We'll have French and Germans begin the attack as soon as they can, then kick in with a huge number of troops.

Our countryside is hell to dominate, chains of mountains which will have their tunnels blown and lots of very large rivers with bridges that will no longer be there.

Right: no one counts for communications in wars. Bridges are built within 5 minutes nowadays, and tunnels are not the only way.
Edit: it'll be hell to keep you under control, I think, but then, we'll just eliminate most forces so you can do nothing against us.

By what miracle of technology will the glorious Russian Army steamroll us before reinforcements arrive?

Well, they have been named. They are tanks. Leo, Leclerc, T-80 and T-90. I that is not enough, I wonder aren't you the war center of the world...

long before you army gets there

Small or half-deployed (half-dispositioned) armies can't defend wide fronts. Proved. By Blietzkrieg.