Uk Referendum on The EU Announced for 23rd June.

[Crown]

I stopped watching when all the virtue signalling SJW dog whistle words started being trotted out; "racists, xenophobic, right wing, crazy, blah, blah, blah".

I present to you UK MEP who was campaigning for Brexit Syed Kamall. That fucking racist bastard.

Saying "racist" or "right wing" is an "SJW dog whistle word" now?

It got your ears all perked up didn't it?

Further proof that "SJW" is just a slur used to shut down and discredit anything the speaker thinks is too Left wing. I mean, you're literally saying "If you mention racism, you're one of those horrible SJWs".

Are you this actually fucking dumb? Actually, don't answer; you're not qualified to self asses.

Your moronic link opened, opened with the Brexit campaign being racist/xenophobic/etc/etc as a given fact. It presented its conclusion as an argument. He virtue signalled to your pathetic SJW mind that you felt all self-awesome about how "right" you were that you felt the need to share. And now you're upset because people are not buying your narrative automatically and you might be asked to - oh I don't know - justify your (well his) assertions.

I pity you.

No, not all Brexit voters are racist.

"And I'm sure, some, are very good people ... "

But a lot of them were, this is simple God damn fact, and its the xenophobes' agenda that has benefitted today.

Define 'a lot'.

Certainly I see no economic benefit to last night's decision as the pound takes a nose dive.

Shockingly a floating currency ... err floated on the global market when news filtered through. It also rose again. Not to yesterday's highs which you know some people might be honest enough to admit was the result of market speculation as well. What's wrong? Can't have market speculation being the result of a stronger currency and it be a neutral thing, but if a currency falls due to market speculation we need to run around screaming the sky is falling?

[Tribble]

May I suggest we consider the repercussions, now that they're almost certainly going to happen and are no longer the realm of theory?

Here's my main question: Now faced with the reality of Brexit, will the EU actually stay true to the tough line of making an example out of the UK?

If they do, it would tend to vindicate the Leave decision in the first place. The EU is supposed to be a mutualist relationship where everyone benefits. Not something with winners and losers where if someone decides they're losing and wants to leave, they get punished- that's imperialism.

It's fair to say, of course, that the EU should treat Britain just as it treats any nation which is not a member of the EU. But if the EU is going out of its way to make things worse for Britain than they would otherwise be, then the EU is thinking like an empire, not like a union. Which sends a pretty clear message, although one that people like the Greeks could have told you a year or three ago.

Oh wow, I never thought I'd live to see a democracy hurt itself so clearly and simply by sheer stupidity.

Eh, we were overdue for another round of it; this sort of thing (complete with voters having buyers' remorse the next day) has been going on at least since the Athenians voted to destroy Mytilene.

I agree, if the EU has any sense whatsoever they'll have to play their game very carefully here. Treating the UK equally to other non EU countries is fine, since the UK voted to leave. But trying to make an example of the U.K. by punishing them as much as possible would just be reinforcing the eurosceptics view that the EU is little more than an empire building exercise.

[Crown]

<snip>

Yeah, none of that jives with your tone but since that can be a subjective reader thing I'll take it as my misinterpretation and move on.

[The Romulan Republic]

You're trolling, Crown.

I won't give an exact number for how many "Leave" voters are racist, etc. because you and I both know there's no way to accurately measure that. Many people have racist opinions and motivations they do not publicly acknowledge, for one.

We also both know, if we're being honest, that its more than a few, and included some prominent political backers of "Leave".

As to the economic fall out- everyone except apologists like you sees this for the disaster that it is. Will the economy eventually rebound? Sure. That doesn't mean there aren't negative repercussions.

[Crown]

You're trolling, Crown.

No, I'm pretty sure that would be you.

I won't give an exact number for how many "Leave" voters are racist, etc. because you and I both know there's no way to accurately measure that. Many people have racist opinions and motivations they do not publicly acknowledge, for one.

If I were to make a claim, and you would to ask me to verify/justify my claim I would either have to do so or concede the point. You made a claim, I've asked you to verify/justify it.

We also both know, if we're being honest, that its more than a few, and included some prominent political backers of "Leave".

You know what I know? You never answer counterpoints directly. You were presented with the face of a British MEP who was actively campaigning Leave which just by looking at him would have already told you that the assertion of your 'CNN guy' that Brexit was all about racism/xenophobia/etc/etc was full of shit. And did you take a moment to pause and reflect that hey maybe this attempt of virtue signalling narrative setting, isn't really accurate?

No, you just weasel and worm and pout and stomp your feet. Grow up. But that's only if we're both being honest. Are we? Both being honest?

As to the economic fall out- everyone except apologists like you sees this for the disaster that it is. Will the economy eventually rebound? Sure. That doesn't mean there aren't negative repercussions.

And if I ever claimed that there would be no negative repercussions you would have a point. Instead I've a said the sky is falling is not valid and the fundamentals of the British economy are sound enough to weather a Brexit. Oooh, the apologist nature of me.

[Crazedwraith]

Be reasonable Crown. One guy does not make the whole campaign. I've had leaflets about the 79 Million Turks that are going to swarm the UK if we stay in the EU. I know the Brexit campaign does have its aspects and supporters that are xenophobic and possibly racist. Neither the exit nor remain campaign was a monolithic block all alike in reasoning and temperament.

There's a reason immigration was the hot topic the Exit campaign hit as much as they could. (Along with sovereignty) Ironically it was the biggest issue in communities with the fewest actual immigrants. Go figure.

I'd make no claim on the proportions though and fuck you for making me take TRR's side.

[The Romulan Republic]

I made no claim on the proportions either, beyond the fact that its a substantial factor in the campaign (which you yourself are clearly aware of) and that those who voted for Brexit (whatever their reasons) were therefore ultimately siding with fascists and bigots. The only reason its an issue is because, despite my best efforts, some people seem determined to straw man my arguments.

You're trolling, Crown.

No, I'm pretty sure that would be you.

I won't give an exact number for how many "Leave" voters are racist, etc. because you and I both know there's no way to accurately measure that. Many people have racist opinions and motivations they do not publicly acknowledge, for one.

If I were to make a claim, and you would to ask me to verify/justify my claim I would either have to do so or concede the point. You made a claim, I've asked you to verify/justify it.

We also both know, if we're being honest, that its more than a few, and included some prominent political backers of "Leave".

You know what I know? You never answer counterpoints directly. You were presented with the face of a British MEP who was actively campaigning Leave which just by looking at him would have already told you that the assertion of your 'CNN guy' that Brexit was all about racism/xenophobia/etc/etc was full of shit. And did you take a moment to pause and reflect that hey maybe this attempt of virtue signalling narrative setting, isn't really accurate?

No, you just weasel and worm and pout and stomp your feet. Grow up. But that's only if we're both being honest. Are we? Both being honest?

As to the economic fall out- everyone except apologists like you sees this for the disaster that it is. Will the economy eventually rebound? Sure. That doesn't mean there aren't negative repercussions.

And if I ever claimed that there would be no negative repercussions you would have a point. Instead I've a said the sky is falling is not valid and the fundamentals of the British economy are sound enough to weather a Brexit. Oooh, the apologist nature of me.

You know, I never said this was the end of the world or anything. But it will hurt a lot of people, and I'm not going to downplay the negative effects this could have.

But perhaps you have more faith in the British economy than I do. Fine. I actually hope you're right.

Also, what point is it that you want me to back up? I never once claimed that all Brexit voters were racist. I've previously stated that most of them are not. I won't defend a straw man argument that I never made. And neither of us can give an exact number. The most you can do, apparently, is cherry pick one guy and say based on his appearance that Brexit isn't racist. I could find a picture of a black Trump supporter and it would prove the same thing- absolutely nothing.

Are you actually asking me to prove that a substantial number of them are bigoted, that that was a major factor behind "Leave"? I can do that if you like, but I rather thought it fell under "common knowledge".

By the way, in the video in question, if you watched the whole thing, you'd have seen that he acknowledged later that their were economic reasons people backed Brexit beyond simple bigotry, and I did say up front that he had a deliberately over the top rhetorical style, though I feel that some of what he said is valid despite that- particularly the argument that liberal complacency lead to this defeat.

[Crown]

Be reasonable Crown. One guy does not make the whole campaign. I've had leaflets about the 79 Million Turks that are going to swarm the UK if we stay in the EU. I know the Brexit campaign does have its aspects and supporters that are xenophobic and possibly racist. Neither the exit nor remain campaign was a monolithic block all alike in reasoning and temperament.

I am being reasonable; look at the video this twat linked. It begins by the default position that anyone supporting Brexit has to be either racist, xenophobic, right wing or crazy. What discussion was TRR trying to 'spark' when the default position of the opposition is already defined as those things? He's a little dishonest cunt who simply put doesn't understand nuance.

And please, I'm Greek. Turkey in the EU scaremongering is nothing new to me. And I would love to know if anyone thought Turkey would be getting in while occupying Cyprus.

There's a reason immigration was the hot topic the Exit campaign hit as much as they could. (Along with sovereignty) Ironically it was the biggest issue in communities with the fewest actual immigrants. Go figure.

I'd argue it was more about control with immigration than anything else. It's also a reason why I actually believe that SJW morons like TRR (and his mouthpiece Facebook moron) simply don't get it. Wanting/desiring/expecting control over immigration/your nation's border is not a right/left issue. Not in the way they would like, and it is that factor - the fact that successive Labour and Tory governments completely dropped the ball on is what has propelled the Leave camp (and what is propelling Trump).

The old ability to shut down this discussion by shouting "racist!" at the first instance of mentioning the word immigration is not working anymore. Ed Balls just admitted as such on the BBC tonight. It is not beyond the realm of normality for a population to expect one of the functions its nation-state provide as part of the social construct is control of its borders.

I'd make no claim on the proportions though and fuck you for making me take TRR's side.

Well you're not; you're actually having the conversation without pre labelling everything in an honest manner.

[The Romulan Republic]

Protests against leaving the EU already taking place:

https://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/its-our- ... t-5965560/

Protesters are taking to the streets of London to voice their anger at the EU referendum result.

Activists have quickly organised the march, from Whitechapel to the Shard in London.


We asked Europeans living in the UK what they think of the referendum result

More than 15,000 people were invited to the demonstration via a Facebook event, though the crowds looked to be far fewer in numbers.
Some of the protesters were under 18, meaning they did not get a say in the UK’s future in the EU.

Demonstration placards read slogans such as ‘Brexit, what a bloody joke ‘ and ‘Where was my vote? It’s my future’.

MORE: George Osborne is very upset about the EU referendum result

LONDON, ENGLAND- JUNE 24: A young couple painted as EU flags, protest on outside Downing Street against the United Kingdom's decision to leave the EU following the referendum on June 24, 2016 in London, United Kingdom. The United Kingdom has gone to the polls to decide whether or not the country wishes to remain within the European Union. After a hard fought campaign from both REMAIN and LEAVE the vote is too close to call. A result on the referendum is expected on Friday morning. (Photo by Mary Turner/Getty Images)
A young couple painted as EU flags, protest on outside Downing Street (Picture: Getty)
Mandatory Credit: Photo by Matthew Chattle/REX/Shutterstock (5736605ab) International students protest Reaction to EU Referendum result, London, UK - 24 Jun 2016
Two young women protest the Brexit (Picture: Rex)
Mandatory Credit: Photo by Matthew Chattle/REX/Shutterstock (5736605v) International students protest Reaction to EU Referendum result, London, UK - 24 Jun 2016
The majority of the protesters were young (Picture: Rex)
MORE: LGBT people tell us why Pride is more important than ever following Orlando attacks

Protesters plan to pass by the headquarters of News Corporation, publishers of the Times and the Sun.

‘The EU referendum has unleashed a torrent of racism. Migration has been attacked and scapegoated by both campaigns — with Leave stoking up bigotry against immigrants and Remain responding by capitulating and echoing that bigotry,’ the page reads.

It goes on: ‘We need to take a stand against this — whatever the result of the referendum.

Youths who are too young to vote protest outside Westminster (Picture: Getty)
Youths who are too young to vote protest outside Westminster (Picture: Getty)
Young activists protest the referendum results (Picture: Getty)
Young activists protest the referendum results (Picture: Getty)
‘Migrant or non-migrant, we stand together as friends, lovers, work colleagues and members of our communities.

Flags are seen above a souvenir kiosk near Big Ben clock at the Houses of Parliament in central London June 26, 2012. Britain's landmark Big Ben clock tower adjoining the Houses of Parliament will be renamed "Elizabeth Tower" to mark Queen Elizabeth's 60th year on the throne, a parliamentary official said on Tuesday. REUTERS/Paul Hackett (BRITAIN - Tags: TRAVEL ROYALS POLITICS ENTERTAINMENT CITYSPACE) - RTR346KI
70,000 sign petition for London to become independent and rejoin the EU

‘Together we keep our collective wheels turning: we stand side-by-side and share our lives.
‘We will not allow a wave of xenophobia and racism to threaten our lives and wellbeing.

‘Join us on the day after the referendum vote to show solidarity with all migrants and defiance in the face of racism – whether it comes from the far right or the “civilised” ruling class.’

epa05388358 Protestors gather outside the Houses of Parliament on the day British Prime Minister David Cameron announcing his resignation after losing the vote in the EU Referendum in London, Britain, 24 June 2016. Approximately 52 percent voted for Leave in the so-called Brexit referendum. EPA/FACUNDO ARRIZABALAGA
Activists gather outside the Houses of Parliament following the Eu referendum (Picture: EPA)
Protester with his placard outside the Houses of Parliament (Picture: Getty)
Protester with his placard outside the Houses of Parliament (Picture: Getty)
Since the outcome of the EU referendum was announced this morning, the pound has plummeted in value and David Cameron has resigned. Ireland, Scotland and even London are threatening to declare independence in an attempt to stay in the EU.


‘I will not resign’: Corbyn refuses to step down despite EU criticism

Some Labour members are also calling for Jeremy Corbyn’s resignation following criticism of his EU campaigning.
Though he has refused to stand down, saying the party should be focusing on unity following the historic vote.

Best part was the line about London threatening to declare independence.

[Crown]

I made no claim on the proportions either, beyond the fact that its a substantial factor in the campaign (which you yourself are clearly aware of) and that those who voted for Brexit (whatever their reasons) were therefore ultimately siding with fascists and bigots. The only reason its an issue is because, despite my best efforts, some people seem determined to straw man my arguments.

OH MY GOD YOU DUMB CUNT; did it ever occur to you that 'fascists' and 'bigots' were siding with them? Do you not understand there is a distinction?

You know, I never said this was the end of the world or anything. But it will hurt a lot of people, and I'm not going to downplay the negative effects this could have. But perhaps you have more faith in the British economy than I do. Fine. I actually hope you're right.

I don't believe you. You mentioned the Pound sterling falling as if it proved something. I pointed out that with a free-floating currency we should expect it to fall after this announcement and that it actually rallied back at the end of the day. Wow.

Also, what point is it that you want me to back up? I never once claimed that all Brexit voters were racist. I've previously stated that most of them are not. I won't defend a straw man argument that I never made. And neither of us can give an exact number. The most you can do, apparently, is cherry pick one guy and say based on his appearance that Brexit isn't racist. I could find a picture of a black Trump supporter and it would prove the same thing- absolutely nothing.

Are you actually asking me to prove that a substantial number of them are bigoted, that that was a major factor behind "Leave"? I can do that if you like, but I rather thought it fell under "common knowledge".

Then it should be fucking easy. Why didn't you. Why haven't you?

By the way, in the video in question, if you watched the whole thing, you'd have seen that he acknowledged later that their were economic reasons people backed Brexit beyond simple bigotry, and I did say up front that he had a deliberately over the top rhetorical style, though I feel that some of what he said is valid despite that- particularly the argument that liberal complacency lead to this defeat.

I already told you I stopped watching when he begins by framing the entire Brexit thing as nothing more by the endeavour of racists, bigots, right wingers and crazy people. That's all I needed to know.

[jwl]

No, not all Brexit voters are racist. But a lot of them were, this is simple God damn fact, and its the xenophobes' agenda that has benefitted today. Certainly I see no economic benefit to last night's decision as the pound takes a nose dive.

Yes, but in the Facebook video crown was responding to, the guy was implying all brexit voters were racist, or at least that the leave campaign was racist.That's clearly nonsense and needs to be called out as such.

The leave campign was in the main lead by Tory MPs, and those MPs are not racist. Not even UKIP can be called racist really, they are more tending towards xenophobia or pandering to xenophobia. And in the broader context, not everyone campaigning for leave even wants to control immigration, look at Giles Fraser for example.

[streetad]

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comme ... -vz3hpfm9x

Just to start with the obvious. Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Iain Duncan-Smith, propped up by Nigel Farage, are not viable as a new British government. They just aren’t. Trust me: this will be a shambles.

A huge bust-up lies ahead. Our experiment in direct democracy is hurtling towards our tradition of representative democracy like some giant asteroid towards a moon. Within a year an irresistible force will collide with an object called parliament: an object that, if not immovable, will be harder to move than anyone imagines.

The Times has estimated that about 160 of the 650 MPs elected last year want Britain to leave the EU. The overwhelming majority of Westminster MPs believes that leaving would be a mistake. Many believe it would be a very grave mistake. Not a few believe it would be calamitous.

But parliament did vote to hold a referendum on the question — and, by implication, to respect its result. This is clear. What can never be known is how many of those parliamentarians thought it seriously likely the plebiscite would result in an instruction to leave the EU. I certainly didn’t.

Well I was wrong. We know now. And in due course, as Britain’s exit proceeds, there will be crucial Commons votes. What are Remain Tory MPs to do? Break faith with the referendum they voted for, in many cases too lightly? How dare they. Or break faith with what their own judgments and conscience tell them are where the interests of constituents and country lie? How could they?


Leave that hanging while we examine what will happen next.

Sometimes in politics a kind of inevitability gathers around a course of action, without any single, simple reason requiring it. The need for a fresh electoral mandate will gain momentum in this way.

It is likely that by the spring of next year a general election will have been called. True, the new rules make early dissolution difficult unless it’s the general will of the Commons; but the media, the Opposition and the SNP will want it, many Tories will acknowledge a need for it, and Nigel Farage’s observation that to negotiate Brexit we need “a Brexit government” will surely ring true. The years until 2020 will be critical in our history as our leaders re-design Britain’s place in Europe and the world. During the referendum campaign the Leave leadership was emphatic that they offered no government-style manifesto for this. For the next stage they will need one.

According to the timetable the prime minister has announced, a new leader of the Conservative party, and therefore prime minister, will be in place by October. I expect the front-runners for this job will be Boris Johnson, Theresa May, and possibly Stephen Crabb. Of these, only one can really be called the continuity candidate, and that is Mrs May. Mr Johnson has never held ministerial office; Mr Crabb would be almost unknown.

You can just about argue that as a senior and experienced member of the Cabinet, never at daggers drawn with the prime minister during the referendum campaign, and staying largely above the fray, May could step in and carry on. Her move to Downing Street might not feel like a lurch that demands a general election to validate it. She was a leading member of the team for which Britain voted in 2015.

But Boris Johnson? His rise to the leadership would look like what it was: a mutiny against his predecessor. Were he to charm the 0.003 per cent of the electorate represented by his party’s national membership, and then, on the vote of that tiny electorate alone, saunter into Downing Street — and stay — it would look preposterous. “Take back control”? How so? Replace those “unelected officials in Brussels” with an unelected prime minister in Downing Street? If Jeremy Corbyn still leads Labour, Johnson would probably want an early election anyway.

So imagine the likely general election campaign in spring next year. What on earth are the clear majority of Tory MPs who backed Remain going to say to their local activists and electors? They’ll be standing, remember, for a party now poised to remove Britain from the EU. “Respect the electorate” will be their mantra but few will have the brass neck to claim they’ve actually ceased to believe that the whole thrust of their party’s pitch for a new mandate is bad for Britain.

At worst the Conservative party could break under the strain. At best, most Tory Remainers will shut up and keep their heads down, some will never have been serious Remainers anyway, a few will break ranks, and a few won’t stand again. But I’m trying to imagine Tories such as Ben Gummer, Amber Rudd, Rory Stewart, Nicky Morgan, Patrick McLoughlin, Stephen Crabb — or George Osborne dammit — on the stump, and rooting for a party bidding to take Britain out of the EU. Trying, as I say, to imagine this — and failing.

Now picture (assuming the Tories win) the incoming new parliament. Most ways I look at it I cannot find a Brexit majority there. Almost all the Labour Opposition plus the SNP, many of the Ulster MPs, Plaid Cymru, the Green party, and — and this is critical — at least a hundred sullen, tormented and foot-dragging Tory Remainers, will be united on this: they never wanted to leave the EU, and fear it could prove disastrous. It’s possible the “Brexit government” of Mr Farage’s imagination could be propped up by a new phalanx of Ukip MPs — but for many Tory MPs this really would be the last straw.

And so I return to the questions we left hanging: how could such MPs vote against their consciences? Yet how dare they defy today’s referendum result?

There’s a way through. Today’s result was not a vote to leave the single market: this was never on the ballot paper. Except with a Ukip-Tory alliance, any foreseeable Commons would block a (forgive me) smexit. Britain can instead leave and seek a status such as Norway’s — with free movement of labour. Brexit plus “unrestricted immigration”! The call for a second referendum would soon gather force.

Add to that the call for a second Scottish referendum, the splitting of the Conservative party (and perhaps Labour too) and serious talk about the formation of a centre party . . . and yes, plenty of work ahead for comfortably off columnists. Just a pity about the millions of poorer citizens whom the Pied Pipers of Brexit have deceived.

He raises a good point that there is literally no way to put together a pro-Brexit government without a general election that significantly changes the makeup of parliament (very unlikely). It's quite likely that they would prefer a sort of 'out but not out' solution not dissimilar to Norway where Britain has access to the common market but no say in decision making to a straight exit. I imagine this would be the ideal solution for Brussels, providing a measure of stability and access to the UK market and removing a major stumbling block to the speedy progress of the 'great project'. Of course it does nothing to address the key issue of border control that has driven so much of the Leave vote.

[The Romulan Republic]

I made no claim on the proportions either, beyond the fact that its a substantial factor in the campaign (which you yourself are clearly aware of) and that those who voted for Brexit (whatever their reasons) were therefore ultimately siding with fascists and bigots. The only reason its an issue is because, despite my best efforts, some people seem determined to straw man my arguments.

OH MY GOD YOU DUMB CUNT; did it ever occur to you that 'fascists' and 'bigots' were siding with them? Do you not understand there is a distinction?

You know, I never said this was the end of the world or anything. But it will hurt a lot of people, and I'm not going to downplay the negative effects this could have. But perhaps you have more faith in the British economy than I do. Fine. I actually hope you're right.

I don't believe you. You mentioned the Pound sterling falling as if it proved something. I pointed out that with a free-floating currency we should expect it to fall after this announcement and that it actually rallied back at the end of the day. Wow.

Also, what point is it that you want me to back up? I never once claimed that all Brexit voters were racist. I've previously stated that most of them are not. I won't defend a straw man argument that I never made. And neither of us can give an exact number. The most you can do, apparently, is cherry pick one guy and say based on his appearance that Brexit isn't racist. I could find a picture of a black Trump supporter and it would prove the same thing- absolutely nothing.

Are you actually asking me to prove that a substantial number of them are bigoted, that that was a major factor behind "Leave"? I can do that if you like, but I rather thought it fell under "common knowledge".

Then it should be fucking easy. Why didn't you. Why haven't you?

By the way, in the video in question, if you watched the whole thing, you'd have seen that he acknowledged later that their were economic reasons people backed Brexit beyond simple bigotry, and I did say up front that he had a deliberately over the top rhetorical style, though I feel that some of what he said is valid despite that- particularly the argument that liberal complacency lead to this defeat.

I already told you I stopped watching when he begins by framing the entire Brexit thing as nothing more by the endeavour of racists, bigots, right wingers and crazy people. That's all I needed to know.

Here, Brexit bigotry:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/world ... .html?_r=0
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... ropaganda/

Oh, and maybe you'd have more credibility if you watched the video before critiquing it. Just a thought. Its not that long.

[Crown]

He raises a good point that there is literally no way to put together a pro-Brexit government without a general election that significantly changes the makeup of parliament (very unlikely). It's quite likely that they would prefer a sort of 'out but not out' solution not dissimilar to Norway where Britain has access to the common market but no say in decision making to a straight exit. I imagine this would be the ideal solution for Brussels, providing a measure of stability and access to the UK market and removing a major stumbling block to the speedy progress of the 'great project'. Of course it does nothing to address the key issue of border control that has driven so much of the Leave vote.

Schäuble won't allow anyone to have (unfettered) access to the common market without the free movement of people. If he did for the UK then Norway and Switzerland would be asking what's up (as they should).

[The Romulan Republic]

As much as I don't want Britain to leave, I do not think Britain should get special treatment, or get to have the perks without the obligations.

If Britain wants "out but not out"... Europe should tell them to go fuck themselves.

[Crown]

Here, Brexit bigotry:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/world ... .html?_r=0
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... ropaganda/

I asked you to define how much 'a lot' was when you said; "No, not all Brexit voters are racist. But a lot of them were, this is simple God damn fact, and its the xenophobes' agenda that has benefitted today." From here.

This doesn't define that. Try again.

Oh, and maybe you'd have more credibility if you watched the video before critiquing it. Just a thought. Its not that long.

[Wild Zontargs]

An alternate take on Brexit and "racists!!!!111one"

The force that turned Britain away from the European Union was the greatest mass migration since perhaps the Anglo-Saxon invasion. 630,000 foreign nationals settled in Britain in the single year 2015. Britain’s population has grown from 57 million in 1990 to 65 million in 2015, despite a native birth rate that’s now below replacement. On Britain’s present course, the population would top 70 million within another decade, half of that growth immigration-driven.

British population growth is not generally perceived to benefit British-born people. Migration stresses schools, hospitals, and above all, housing. The median house price in London already amounts to 12 times the median local salary. Rich migrants outbid British buyers for the best properties; poor migrants are willing to crowd more densely into a dwelling than British-born people are accustomed to tolerating.

This migration has been driven both by British membership in the European Union and by Britain’s own policy: The flow of immigration to the U.K. is almost exactly evenly divided between EU and non-EU immigration. And more is to come, from both sources: Much of the huge surge of Middle Eastern and North African migrants to continental Europe since 2013 seems certain to arrive in Britain; as Prime Minister David Cameron likes to point out, Britain has created more jobs since 2010 than all the rest of the EU combined.

The June 23 vote represents a huge popular rebellion against a future in which British people feel increasingly crowded within—and even crowded out of—their own country: More than 200,000 British-born people leave the U.K. every year for brighter futures abroad, in Australia above all, the United States in second place.

[...]

Is it possible that leaders and elites had it all wrong? If they’re to save the open global economy, maybe they need to protect their populations better against globalization’s most unwelcome consequences—of which mass migration is the very least welcome of them all?

If any one person drove the United Kingdom out of the European Union, it was Angela Merkel, and her impulsive solo decision in the summer of 2015 to throw open Germany—and then all Europe—to 1.1 million Middle Eastern and North African migrants, with uncountable millions more to come.

[Crown]

An alternate take on Brexit and "racists!!!!111one"

<snip>
If any one person drove the United Kingdom out of the European Union, it was Angela Merkel, and her impulsive solo decision in the summer of 2015 to throw open Germany—and then all Europe—to 1.1 million Middle Eastern and North African migrants, with uncountable millions more to come.

I would just like to take a moment to virtue signal to everyone (in case they missed it); that I am one of these economic migrants ... hi o/

But I disagree with the last line; this has been an issue that newLabour and Tory/Coalition governments completely failed on before Merkel invited everyone into the EU, as Ed Balls conceded tonight on the BBC.

[Prannon]

Thoughts on immigration.

Unfettered immigration is bad for the mentioned reasons. However, immigration in the long run pays huge economic, demographic, and social dividends. We've seen this in the states given the many waves of immigration we've had. When I grew up it was something to be celebrated. Not so much the case anymore. :/

Europe kinda needs this more than we do though. With falling birthrates and more people dying than are born, any well managed immigration will do a lot to revitalize societies.

And that sums up my simple thoughts on it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Here, Brexit bigotry:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/world ... .html?_r=0
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... ropaganda/

I asked you to define how much 'a lot' was when you said; "No, not all Brexit voters are racist. But a lot of them were, this is simple God damn fact, and its the xenophobes' agenda that has benefitted today." From here.

This doesn't define that. Try again.

Oh, and maybe you'd have more credibility if you watched the video before critiquing it. Just a thought. Its not that long.

If that's what you're asking for, as I said, it is impossible to give an exact number for racist Leave voters. I could maybe dig up stats. on the number of British people who openly say they are racist, or are members of racist organizations, but I think we all know that the number of people who are motivated by racism is not the same as the number of people who acknowledge it. And before you even got to that, you'd have to define what is or is not racist, which is a hotly contested subject in its own right. You are asking for something that it is literally impossible to give. You can take that as a concession if you like, but I personally do not see that one has to give an exact number for racist Leave voters to demonstrate that their were a substantial number of them, that it was a major factor behind the Leave campaign, which is my contention.

What I did do is provide sources demonstrating that fears of Turkey joining the EU and more Turkish/Muslim immigration, and immigration in general, was a major issue in the campaign, and that one of the main political factions behind "Leave" was using propaganda reminiscent of the Nazis.

I think that proves my point quite well.

[Crown]

Thoughts on immigration.

Unfettered immigration is bad for the mentioned reasons. However, immigration in the long run pays huge economic, demographic, and social dividends. We've seen this in the states given the many waves of immigration we've had. When I grew up it was something to be celebrated. Not so much the case anymore. :/

I'd argue uncontrolled immigration is being frowned upon. No one (as far as I know) is arguing the position that Brexit will result in a total ban of immigration.

Europe kinda needs this more than we do though. With falling birthrates and more people dying than are born, any well managed immigration will do a lot to revitalize societies.

And that sums up my simple thoughts on it.

Eastern Europe has seen the largest de-population in the shortest amount of time in modern history (source), most of them emigrating to Western Europe ironically enough.

[ray245]

I think a number of Brexiters would be happy if the UK is in a similar position to Japan. Like Japan, it is a largely homogenous society that have very little immigration and very strict border controls.

If the Japanese are willing to reject immigration despite a stagnant economy and a very eldery, shrinking population, then I think this is the mentality that a number of Brexiters do share.

[Crown]

If that's what you're asking for, as I said, it is impossible to give an exact number for racist Leave voters. I could maybe dig up stats. on the number of British people who openly say they are racist, or are members of racist organizations, but I think we all know that the number of people who are motivated by racism is not the same as the number of people who acknowledge it. And before you even got to that, you'd have to define what is or is not racist, which is a hotly contested subject in its own right. You are asking for something that it is literally impossible to give. You can take that as a concession if you like, but I personally do not see that one has to give an exact number for racist Leave voters to demonstrate that their were a substantial number of them, that it was a major factor behind the Leave campaign, which is my contention.

Right, since you can't quantify 'a lot' stop saying it.

What I did do is provide sources demonstrating that fears of Turkey joining the EU and more Turkish/Muslim immigration, and immigration in general, was a major issue in the campaign, and that one of the main political factions behind "Leave" was using propaganda reminiscent of the Nazis.

I think that proves my point quite well.

Riiiiiiiiiiight ... Oh this is painful, but I have to ask; and you couldn't possibly think of any other reason why the objection of Turkey joining the EU could possibly be based on other then racism or xenophobia ... like nothing at all

[Crown]

I think a number of Brexiters would be happy if the UK is in a similar position to Japan. Like Japan, it is a largely homogenous society that have very little immigration and very strict border controls.

If the Japanese are willing to reject immigration despite a stagnant economy and a very eldery, shrinking population, then I think this is the mentality that a number of Brexiters do share.

Well that's not a position that any of the Leave Torries or UKIP even hold so they will be severely disappointed by what Brexit will actually entail.

[Zaune]

Net population growth in this country is between 0.6 and 0.8% a year, depending whose figures you buy. That's a pittance, especially given a high fraction are young able-bodied adults. If we'd pissed less money up the wall botching Private Finance Initiatives and helping the Bush administration lose two expensive wars we wouldn't have anything to blame the immigrants for.