Pre-industrial Fantasy STGOD OOC/Rules Thread:

[Eternal_Freedom]

Hmmm...since I plan on running my ships in squadrons of nine (one three0decker and eight two-deckers) I am curious to see what your Navy would field to be on equal terms. In pure weight of shot, this squadron is equivalent to about 11 OTL first-rates, with sturdiness to match and very well-trained crews who can sustain rapid fire for some time. That's not to be trifled with.

[Beowulf]

Hmmm...since I plan on running my ships in squadrons of nine (one three0decker and eight two-deckers) I am curious to see what your Navy would field to be on equal terms. In pure weight of shot, this squadron is equivalent to about 11 OTL first-rates, with sturdiness to match and very well-trained crews who can sustain rapid fire for some time. That's not to be trifled with.

Currently, the Six Kingdoms have nominally 5 squadrons of the line, though one of the squadrons is divided into two, and based in two different kingdoms. Each squadron is 1 first rate and 7 second rates. Smallest grouping you'd see is likely a 4 ship group, unless they've taken battle damage. Smallest group we'd send against one of your squadrons is a reinforced squadron, of 1 first rate and 11 second rates, more likely two squadrons. The future may require the expansion of a squadron to 10 ships vice 8, however.

[Eternal_Freedom]

When you say "second-rates" are you referring to two-decker 64-80 gun ships or the RL 90-98 gun three-decked ships that only Britain ever produced?

[Simon_Jester]

I take a certain relief in having entirely bypassed this entire line of comparison in my own war plans, but continue watching with interest...

[Beowulf]

When you say "second-rates" are you referring to two-decker 64-80 gun ships or the RL 90-98 gun three-decked ships that only Britain ever produced?

Two decker, as defined in my order of battle.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I thought so, it would have been weird if you'd only fielded three-decked warships, but given the weirdness of this game, it's wise to check.

[Simon_Jester]

My ramblings about Atlantis and the Cyclopean Age and so on triggered a runaway cascade... I actually wound up writing a headcanon 'deep history' for the game, which I'm reluctant to even think about posting for fear that it will provoke argument, or contaminate people's ideas, or something bad.

The big thing I wanted to explain is why there are several basically European-looking cultures in eastern North America, which have been around so long that they are obviously NOT recent colonial transplants... but meanwhile there are also multiple flourishing cultures derived from what we would call Native American custom and tradition, and even in the eastern parts of the continent many place-names are still derived from Native American vocabulary (out of character, becuase that's where we get our English-language names for those places). I think I managed it, which I'm a bit proud of even if I never do anything with all this stuff.

[madd0ct0r]

Id like to see it. Will cheerfully subvert it or ignore it if it gets in the way though

[Eternal_Freedom]

I did make mention in my history post of evidence of a precursor civilisation that disappeared practically overnight about 7-8000 years ago, so yeah, post it and let's have a looksie.

[Simon_Jester]

Gonna post it in here, rather than in IC, because it's not story content... "YA" stands for "years ago."

DEEP HISTORY

~70000 to 11700 YA
The Age of Ice. Tropical regions of the world were populated by anatomically modern humans, and a variety of other intelligent races. Some of these are human offshoots created by magic or divine intervention. Others are not. Technological levels varied dramatically.

There is sufficient evidence that nonhuman civilizations of great advancement existed in certain parts of the world, both during this era and at earlier times. Many though not all of them ceased to exist prior to the present day. Some races and many civilizations that exist in the present did not exist during this time.

~25000 YA
Atlantis is settled by human primitives striking out in crude vessels from the western shores of Europe and Africa in prehistoric times. They are guided by merfolk, and the mermaid is forever after a symbol of Atlantean culture.

The early Atlanteans adapt quickly in both magic and culture to the wild, dangerous beasts and lingering curses that afflict the continent, setting them on the path to the foundation of a recognizable civilization.

~16000 to 13000 YA
Rise of Atlantean civilization in an icy world. The Atlanteans were not the first sophisticated human civilization, but they were perhaps the first *great* human civilization.

Large scale settlement of North America by humans takes place, from both east and west. From the east, Atlantean seafarers strike out in ships; from the west, nomadic bands which migrate across a land bridge from Siberia. Prior to the arrival of certain second wave colonists in the last few millenia before present, Siberian influence tends to dominate human cultures further west, while Atlantean influence dominates further east.

Settlement proceeds, naturally, only in those areas which are not covered by massive sheets of ice (see maps of the Wisconsin glaciation for reference).

Atlantean colonies are founded on the shores of Europe, mingling with and only partially displacing the existing European peoples, who were still largely in the Neolithic.

~12500 YA
Atlantean civilization reaches its pinnacle of magical achievement. Most of their technology is at least partly magical in nature and has properties that cannot be duplicated by mundane means. Flying vehicles, life extension, impervious materials, extraplanar communication, and so forth are commonplace.

Atlantean philosophers achieve what are by human standards unprecedented insights into the fundamental principles of existence, leading to breathtaking advances in magic theory. This translates directly into actionable opportunities and knowledge, as the Atlantean intellectual elite transcends many of the limitations once thought to be laws of nature. The new breed of philosopher-kings blur the boundaries between 'man' and 'god.'

This further enables the creation of the network of spell-weaves, massive currents of conjured magical energy that can easily be tapped by nearly anyone, regardless of whether they are a magician in normal terms. Magical enhancement of even the most mundane areas of life becomes commonplace as a result. Magic-using forms of agriculture, metalworking, transportation, and medicine supplant virtually all conventional ones.

Atlantean civilization’s elite grow proud. Many propose a program of world-altering magics using the existing spell-weaves. Objectives of the "grand design" included reclamation of land from under the ice sheets, permanent portals permitting colonization of other planes of reality, the virtual abolition of all forms of disease and death (with concomitant mobilization of resources and living space to prevent overpopulation), and the creation of new forms of life (intelligent and unintelligent) as servitors on a scale not previously practiced.

~11700 YA
Early experiments in magical geoengineering set in motion global climate change, triggering the end of the Age of Ice, though it will be some hundreds of years before the glaciers finally retreat from regions such as Scandinavia and northern Canada. Ongoing climatic shifts, and cataclysms (such as earthquakes and massive floods) associated with the melting ice sheets act as a backdrop to what follows.

Due to mythic distortion of events, this is widely regarded as the beginning of the Fall of Atlantis, though an accurate recounting would reveal that Atlantean civilization remained healthy and functional for over a century after the glaciers began to retreat- roughly the length of a complete lifespan for the average Atlantean citizen. However, such complete and accurate knowledge is unlikely to be uncovered by modern civilizations, for obvious reasons.

~11700 to 11550 YA
Initially startled by the consequences of their actions, the Atlantean god-kings respond conservatively. However, this results in ambitious newcomers, upstarts, and apprentices often seeking to pursue the old "grand design" at the expense of their former lieges. Various provinces of the overall Atlantean confederation secede or form coalitions with opposing ideological aims and goals for the future of the world, and prepare to enforce those aims by magical means.

~11500 YA
Major tectonic events, upwellings of creatures from other planes, and annihilation of sizeable areas of land via massed energy releases become commonplace as the Atlantean civilization of three continents begins tearing itself apart in civil war. This compounds and heterodynes with the ongoing upheavals resulting from the end of the Age of Ice.

Collateral effects of this begin having radical consequences (e.g. the creation of the Chesapeake Bay where the core territory of the Atlantean colony of Phoebus used to be). Nations, races, and entities from outside the Atlantean sphere, but with interests in the outcome, tend to become involved. This leads to a period of world conflict to match the trans-Atlantic one.

~11450 YA
Central government on the continent of Atlantis is irretrievably broken, and has long since collapsed in the ‘colony’ regions of Europe and North America. Political chaos spirals into magical chaos. Rival factions continue to tap the grand transoceanic spell-weaves for conflicting purposes, resulting in cataclysms and monstrosities unknown and undesired by any party involved.

Ultimately, abuse of chthonic magic as a weapon of war triggers a magical backlash that blows apart the Atlantean spell-weave network entirely. Consequent agitation of the bedrock elementals, coupled with dimensional distortion, causes the entire continent of Atlantis to sink into the sea, swallowed up by a destabilizing rift emanating from the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. This is predictably accompanied by massive barrages of tidal waves, earthquakes, and vulcanism across much of the globe. Effects are especially devastating on the shores of the North Atlantic, causing major collateral damage to the surviving Atlantean colonies in North America and Europe.

Even civilizations and races far from the North Atlantic region suffer severely from the ongoing geological upheavals, and in many cases survive as coherent bodies only through divine intervention, great sacrifices of magic, or both.

~11400 YA
Many surviving Atlantean colonies simply collapse as the magic sustaining their infrastructure and technology fades. Virtually no living humans remain in anything above a barbarous state. Some nonhuman races fare better.

The least devastated human societies on the North American continent at this time are Siberian-descended chiefdoms in the west, who are least affected by the tectonic consequences of Atlantis sinking into the sea, and whose magics are far more stable and sustainable than those of the collapsing Atlanteans.

~11000 YA
With at most an extremely limited number of exceptions, the last (anti-agathic treated) humans with living memory of Atlantis are dead. Much practical magical knowledge remains, but the spell-weaves and the high-order magic theory needed to create them are lost.

The glaciers have by now largely retreated, and the ongoing depopulation caused by natural disasters associated with the sinking of Atlantis has ceased. In both Europe and North America this results in opportunistic expansion by all parties involved. In the early years this mostly favors nonhumans (in Europe), Siberian-descended nomads (in western North America) or both (in eastern North America).

Efforts by Atlantean-descended human cultures to reestablish themselves are prevented by the rapid spread of various nonhuman races previously suppressed by Atlantean power. While sporadic, warring chiefdoms emerge among people of Atlantean descent east of the Mississippi, none are particularly stable.

Knowledge of metalworking is lost to Atlantean humans in North America, because Atlantean metallurgy was magical in nature and became dependent on spells that have since unraveled. Few if any Atlanteans at the time of the Fall knew anything about the crafting and shaping of mundane iron, bronze, or the like... and the working of alloys such as titan-steel, orichalc, and violet gold are lost almost beyond retrieval.

Outside of whatever purely local magical infrastructure remains to them, post-Fall Atlantean colonies in North America are thus reduced to a literally Stone Age remnant. Lacking the globe-spanning network of interlocking spell-weaves that sustained their industry, agriculture, health care, and transportation, the Atlantean survivors have lost only some of their magical skill but nearly all of their economic capacity for production and development.

Perhaps unfortunately, battle-magic, summoning of extraplanar entities, and manipulation of violent natural forces are the least affected by this. This results in further destructive conflict and the loss of much of the remaining Atlantean lore.

Cultivation of those crops which can survive without magical fertilization and augmentation continues on a garden-patch scale through most of what was once Atlantean civilization outside the sunken motherland. Large, formerly cultivated areas of North America where Atlanteans once lived in greater numbers revert to wilderness.

~10500 YA
Virtually all functional remnants of Atlantean technology and infrastructure have faded, often actively "burned" for energy by powerful magicians seeking to fuel their own quests to revive the past.

Most Atlantean-descended peoples now occupy a barbaric political order and a Neolithic technological state. Some of the least unsettled Atlantean-descended cultures are beginning to experiment with working in mundane metals, mostly copper, gold, and alloys thereof.

Siberian-descended North American cultures, once almost entirely nomadic, continue to flourish. At the point of contact with Atlantean-descended cultures, the Siberians tend to have a noticeable margin of superiority. Semi-sedentary Siberian-descended tribes in what is now the Aztec Empire begin the process of developing maize from native grasses, a process widely believed to have been initiated under the guidance of one or more tutelary deities. Other tribes adopt those Atlantean crops which have spread west as invasive species.

~10000-8000 YA
Nonhuman races with knowledge of metalworking and other technology are mostly able to keep it out of human hands during this era, with the result that humans are forced to start their long, laborious climb up from the Neolithic at the beginning. In North America, new codes of law and custom emerge, at most faintly descended from Atlantean precursors. Nonhuman races with metal tools carve out large territories for themselves and terrorize many human settlements whenever they desire.

These nonhumans compete on roughly equal terms with some of the Siberian-descended societies, whose cultures are unbroken, and whose gods and magic remain intact. Both the Siberian-descended humans and the more advanced of the nonhumans have major advantages over Atlantean-descended peoples. During this era ethnic Atlanteans were ‘rolled back’ still further out of many areas they formerly occupied. It is likely that the Atlantean-based cultures would have been exterminated outright, except for magical intervention.

While no wizard of the post-Fall era can rival the abilities of the Atlantean philosopher-kings, many possess staggering power by the standards of later eras. In the post-Fall environment their knowledge is transmitted orally to apprentices, generation after generation. Their general outlook on life is informed by the savage and primitive conditions of the surrounding culture.

Wizards of this dark age are quick to anger, and not at all subtle. While in many cases they tyrannize and terrorize the mundane and primitive peoples of what was once the Atlantean confederation, they at least ensure the survival of those peoples in the face of external threats.

~8000-6000 YA
Over the hundred generations since the Fall, Atlantean and Siberian cultures are beginning to merge over large swathes of North America , especially west of the Rockies and north of the Missouri. The mixing process varies, being sometimes violent and sometimes peaceful. North American humans begin to evolve a more balanced and peaceful relationship with the nonhuman species of the continent. Boundaries grow more definite, now that the formerly empty lands vacated by the retreat of the glaciers and the fall of the Atlantean daughter-colonies are filled up.

Meanwhile, the surviving Atlantean remnant cultures finally begin to halt their decline. Laboriously, they rediscover many of the principles of non-magical agriculture and craftsmanship. Populations become more stable and organized, and more able to defend sizeable towns and settlements from intruders. Bronze working spreads across North America during this era, though it is unclear whether the technology originated from Siberian or Atlantean cultures.

While this period is still an age that might reasonably be called ‘Dark,’ there is a greater degree of commerce and cultural interchange. Siberian-descended societies continue their gradual evolution into magic-assisted nomadic forms, or sedentary agriculture-using forms. Meanwhile, those areas whose cultural heritage is mostly Atlantean in nature are still mostly ruled or strongly influenced by wizards.

The combination of linguistic drift, destruction of written materials, violence, and lack of supporting social infrastructure makes it difficult for the Dark Age wizards to pass on their knowledge from generation to generation. Knowledge is lost at a slow but steady rate, increasing over time as each successive ‘generation’ of wizard tends to be shorter-lived than the last.

This was the beginning of a trend towards advancing technology and social organization, but declining magic, among the descendants of Atlantis.

In parts of Atlantean-settled North America, this period is known as the Cyclopean Age. The name is derived from the memorable practice of certain magicians, who would enslave giants to construct dwellings and other buildings for them. Such a practice had been rare and largely pointless in earlier millennia, when the secrets of large scale mass-manipulation were more widely remembered.

~6000-3500 YA
This era saw the re-emergence of settled cities and large scale agriculture across much of human North America. Wizards become less influential in the former Atlantean lands, while law, organized armies, and civic government become more influential.

Still in a Bronze Age technological state, at least until near the end of this era, Atlanteans, Siberians, and the hybrid cultures between them (such as the occupants of the upper Ohio valley) make sporadic gains in reclaiming the wilderness and suppressing some of the more threatening and uncivilized entities that emerged in the dark millenia.

Different regions of the continent begin to reconnect via limited trade networks. Law, craftsmanship, and art begin to achieve distinct and recognizable high points in their own right, as opposed to inadequate work derivative of previous civilizations. The civilizing trend is nonuniform and there are definite cyclic patterns of developed cultures rising and falling- but outright barbarism and squalor are now in a state of recognizable decline.

In Europe, knowledge of iron working is recovered more rapidly, somewhat altering the character of what is known there as the Hyborean Age, but there are substantial parallels.

~3500 YA
While not all societies have accurate historical records of sufficient depth to account for events this far back in time the overall diversity and flexibility of North America’s technologies and resource base grew too great to make generalization possible after this time. It becomes much less practical to distinguish between Atlantean and Siberian culture due to extensive mingling between the two across much of the continent.

The chronicler therefore defers to historians of individual regions.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That sounds pretty damned awesome actually.

[madd0ct0r]

Pah. Human centric apologist mush

Although ill see if i can work a giant or two in somewhere. Im also interpreting potential links between the elves and the last of the atlanteans? Although it could be simple convergent magical development

[Zwinmar]

Heh, so theoretically it could haven been a reactivated Atlantean portal that allowed the arrival of the Thyrs huh?

[Simon_Jester]

Pah. Human centric apologist mush

Not even hyenorks could have been living in northern Canada during the Ice Age; there'd be nothing to eat because they'd be perched on top of the Laurentide Ice Sheet. From their point of view, this is the story of how humans had it good for themselves, and the world was awesome except for the part where humans were hard to kill. But then humans ruined large parts of the world but in the process made themselves the easiest meat ever.

Assuming that hyenorks actually existed in this era, which I did not want to make any assumptions about. The main reason I never explicitly referenced any nonhuman species (other than giants and mermaids) was because I don't want to rule anything out, or rule anything in, about them. Some species that now exist may have been created by gods or magic since the fall of Atlantis; some of the species that were then prominent may now be extinct.

The idea that deep historic time is full of this churning, cyclic pattern of civilizations and races rising and falling is a very common one in fantasy, and I wanted to explore it.

Although ill see if i can work a giant or two in somewhere.

For all I know, the giants are extinct, or extinct in North America. Your call.

Im also interpreting potential links between the elves and the last of the atlanteans? Although it could be simple convergent magical development

It's possible that the elves know some of the things the Atlanteans knew, or have duplicated some of the same magics. The elves are not, however, Atlanteans, and that's kind of the point- no one is Atlantean anymore. "Atlantean" is at most a broad linguistic and 'racial' category, and one that has become so blurred by time that it's almost meaningless.

Any modern culture that claims to be the heirs of Atlantis is only slightly more credible than Hitler was for claiming the same thing about being descended from super-Aryans who lived inside a hollow Earth.

Now, the elves might well come closer than most to remembering what really happened to Atlantis. But no one really knows; the material I posted is "secret history." The only people who would actually remember are a handful of literally immortal beings, and as I understand it TRR's elves are not actually immortal. Even if they were, that means they were probably in some sense participants in the events surrounding the fall of Atlantis, and have had thousands of years to selectively edit their memories regarding what happened and why.

Besides which, the elves of Coronal have been reduced to near barbarism themselves at least once in the recent past- so who knows if even they know what they used to.

Heh, so theoretically it could haven been a reactivated Atlantean portal that allowed the arrival of the Thyrs huh?

Remind me again when the Thyrs emerged and under what circumstances? If it happened less than, oh, eight or nine thousand years ago, it's doubtful that any Atlantean construct would be intact without extensive refurbishment. Not that refurbishment is impossible as such, just saying.

One of the things that destroyed the remains of Atlantis is that magical power tends to be... fungible.

So any given Atlantean artifact of great magic would have to survive thousands of years of ambitious jerkass wizards running around sniffing out ancient relics and trying to drain the magic from them, distorting it so they could use it to rule the world with an army of carnivorous bunny rabbits or whatever.

[madd0ct0r]

I object to the depiction of hyeorks as carnivours bunny rabbits. They are clearly descended from the same dogs to servant race experiment that got us the lithium mining werewolves down south the heat control via the paws is actually taken from huskies.

Thats is their secret history, although is is open to being swayed by other players as they see fit. the megafauna they live among are hangovers from the ice age, but i can justify them avoiding neolithic extinction by being more recent species encouraged by the still open link to the primordial plane off the north coast

[Simon_Jester]

No no no, the carnivorous bunny rabbits were an entirely separate project.

[Zwinmar]

Honestly, I havn't delved too deeply into the origin of the Thyrs as of yet. So, ideas are more than welcome and this is one to think about.

[Esquire]

How long have they been around, again?

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah, having some information on timeframes would be useful.

Also, is anyone else gonna post anything?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'm still working on a couple posts, I was away on Scout camp this weekend.

[Zwinmar]

Well the main theme is that the Thyrsian Empire was in its fledgling form a thousand years ago. There is a system of clans but, I havent really thought on what was before the empire.

[Eternal_Freedom]

There's a thought...which of the player nations has been around the longest? Orion is 3000 years old in it's current form, but as my history post showed, there was another millenium or so before the founding of a powerful Orion-esque alliance.

[madd0ct0r]

Ill pronably post soon. I might have to put a byffer nation between me and the lakes rather than miles and miles of empty land and odd farmhouses.

[Simon_Jester]

That's fair; I figure that there must be some kind of small polities occupying the northern shores of the Great Lakes. The areas closest to you are probably a lot less populated than they could be if not for hyenork raids. Get closer to the Lakes, and you get organization up to the level of, oh, city-states and small principalities. The ones on the shores of the Lakes proper are heavily involved in commerce, fishing, and (when they can get away with it) piracy.

[Abacus]

I'm a little confused by the jumble of threads, but I was curious to know where I might sign up to join? I'm also happy to give my expertise regarding medieval weaponry and battle tactics (predominantly that of the ancient Greeks, Roman Empire & Republic, and ancient and medieval China and Japan).