would the anti-war folks have supported war against Germany?

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2003-03-26 12:00pm

Interesting parellel drawn here between the anti-war arguments against war with Iraq and the arguments against war with Germany in 1941. I found this on another message board I frequent, and the poster only requested to be identified as "miamispartan".

Here's his argument....

"Based on many of your reasons for opposing this war, I think many of you would have been against the War against Germany. Are any of you willing to admit it?

Let’s take a look at today’s arguments for this war and the similar comments we likely would have heard from some of you in December 1941:

Today: Why are we going after Iraq? They weren’t involved in 9/11. We should not take away resources from the War on Terror to fight Iraq.
1941: Why are we going after Germany? They weren’t involved in Pearl Harbor. We should not take away resources from the War against Japan to fight Germany.

Today: Yes, Saddam has committed atrocities, but so has Zimbabwe and others. Are we going to go after them next?
1941: Yes, Hitler has committed atrocities, but so has Russia and others. Are we going to go after them next?

Today: The President is using the fear and sympathy over 9/11 to justify going after Iraq, despite the fact that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
1941: The President is using the fear and sympathy over Pearl Harbor to justify going after Germany, despite the fact that Germany had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor.

Today: Saddam is not a threat to attack the United States.
1941: Hitler is not a threat to attack the United States.

I suppose some of you will point to the fact that Germany occasionally attacked some of our ships. Did they on December 7, 1941? Better yet, did Italy? On December 8, Congress declared War on Japan and began discussion of declaring war on Germany and Italy (which was declared on December 11, I believe). So what did Germany and Italy do on December 8, 9, and 10? We didn’t declare war for sinking our ships prior to that, did we? And if you wish to bring up that point, I would respond by saying that if you are counting those as reasons for war, then we have never ceased war with Iraq since 1991, since we have occasionally sent in cruise missiles, and bombed areas in the No-Fly zone, and Iraq has occasionally fired SAMs at our planes since the cease fire in 1991.

Hopefully some of you are willing to admit that in 1941 you would have opposed war with Germany, but that we were right to go to war. If so, I give you kudos and respect for being honest with yourself and with us"

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-26 12:02pm

Well, for what it's worth, American communists were fairly pro-war during WWII, IIRC (of course, we were coming to the aid of the communist USSR then, so war was OK in that instance).

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-03-26 12:02pm

Quite a stupid argument, considering that Germany delcared war on America.

Strafe · Post by **Strafe** » 2003-03-26 12:03pm

Umm...the big difference is that Germany had invaded other countries and allies...

Iraq hasn't since the 1991 Gulf War when we booted him out the 1st time.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-03-26 12:07pm

irishmick79 wrote:Today: Saddam is not a threat to attack the United States.
1941: Hitler is not a threat to attack the United States.

On the contrary, Hitler was kicking the crap out of the other super powers at the time (Britan, France etc.) and was a real danger. Do any of us seriously see Saddam's force as being a great a threat to the world as Hitler's forces? I don't think so.

Besides, we don't know if there were a lot of people againat fighting a two front war then, because it rapidly became a moot point when Germay declared war against US.

Your facts are wrong, your premise is wrong, you have no argument.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-03-26 12:08pm

Yeah... the whole argument is crap from the first to the last word. Nonbelligerent country Iraq - #1 agressor in the World - the Reich. The Reich battled good with USA, USSR and England. The Iraq battled..? whou... I repeat, in this case USA is acting like Germany 1939 invading Poland.

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2003-03-26 12:11pm

But, that doesn't change the fact there was a strong isolationist sentiment in the US at the time in 1941 that felt that Germany would not attack the United States, DESPITE German aggression against american shipping, and the like. History eventually proved them wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that alot of people did have their heads in the sand when it came to assessing the threat of the Germans.

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2003-03-26 12:13pm

How can anybody argue that Iraq is not a belligerent country? Just take a look at their involvement in the Iran-Iraq war. Or how about their invasion of Kuwait? Or their constant support of terrorism against Israel? How does that add up to being a government that's not belligerent towards it's neighbors?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » 2003-03-26 12:13pm

irishmick79 wrote:But, that doesn't change the fact there was a strong isolationist sentiment in the US at the time in 1941 that felt that Germany would not attack the United States, DESPITE German aggression against american shipping, and the like. History eventually proved them wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that alot of people did have their heads in the sand when it came to assessing the threat of the Germans.

If someone declares war against you, you are not gonna sit idly by.

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2003-03-26 12:14pm

And Hitler was invading countries for two years, before we gave a damn. Saddam was invading his neighbors as well, and we didn't do anything to contain him until he went into Kuwait.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-03-26 12:14pm

irishmick79 wrote:But, that doesn't change the fact there was a strong isolationist sentiment in the US at the time in 1941 that felt that Germany would not attack the United States, DESPITE German aggression against american shipping, and the like. History eventually proved them wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that alot of people did have their heads in the sand when it came to assessing the threat of the Germans.

Gemany had a formal alliance with Japan. The moment Japan attacked the U.S, Germany was at war with the U.S. The wishes of the U.S citizens at the time had nothing to do with it. Even if 100% of the population desired Peace, War was already knocking at the door.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-03-26 12:16pm

Colonel Olrik
All true.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-03-26 12:17pm

irishmick79 wrote:And Hitler was invading countries for two years, before we gave a damn. Saddam was invading his neighbors as well, and we didn't do anything to contain him until he went into Kuwait.

Saddam tried to invade one neighbour. He failed. Tried to invade another, much smaller and powerless, and failed again (we spanked him). I don't feel threatened by the man, not like I would by Hitler.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-03-26 12:18pm

I don`t know for other countries but in Quebec many French Canadian were for Germany,and if Hitler had build a couple of carriers and came here, there would have been a shitload of fucker helping nazis against English Canadians and Americans.

just like today their children are happy when American soldiers die in Iraq.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-03-26 12:20pm

Montcalm
The children are not, watch "The other side of "liberated happy Iraquis"

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-03-26 12:29pm

Stas Bush wrote:Montcalm
The children are not, watch "The other side of "liberated happy Iraquis"

When i said children i was`nt refering to young kids of today,but sadly they are fed up lies by school teachers about US army killing Iraqi children,so some parents have to tell their kids whar is really happening in Iraq.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-03-26 01:02pm

The childred hate invaders. You come to Russia in the future, my kids will hate you and possibly kill you.

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2003-03-26 01:03pm

A lot of terrorists and hostile regimes have already declared a quasi war against the united states, including Iraq. But that doesn't change the fact that there is strong sentiment against US military action against those groups. Same situation in 1941. Even though Germany declared war against the US, there was still a fairly strong segment of society that thought war against the Germans was a bad idea.

What I'm just saying is that even in clear cut cases where war can be considered justified, there will be those who would oppose the war no matter what. History will eventually determine if the pro-iraq war folks are right, or if the anti-war folks are correct. With hindsight being twenty twenty, threat assessment becomes much easier....

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-26 01:04pm

Stas Bush wrote:The childred hate invaders. You come to Russia in the future, my kids will hate you and possibly kill you.

What could possibly motivate the United States to come to Russia?

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-03-26 01:06pm

On December 8, Congress declared War on Japan and began discussion of declaring war on Germany and Italy

I thought Germany declared war on the US?

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-03-26 01:07pm

Durran Korr
Perhaps Russian troops sent to Iraq to kick US troops. This was debated in the Duma (but refuted, since Russia will consider the UN's opinion before taking action (unlike the US), as Ivanov said).

If we kill you, you kill us: you kill Iraqis, we kill you... and so on.

War. It's waiting it's hour. It always finds a way.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-03-26 01:09pm

Interesting parellel drawn here between the anti-war arguments against war with Iraq and the arguments against war with Germany in 1941. I found this on another message board I frequent, and the poster only requested to be identified as "miamispartan".

"miamispartan" is a dumbass. Germany DECLARED WAR on the US shortly after Pearl Harbor.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-03-26 01:12pm

Stas Bush wrote:Durran Korr
Perhaps Russian troops sent to Iraq to kick US troops. This was debated in the Duma (but refuted, since Russia will consider the UN's opinion before taking action (unlike the US), as Ivanov said).

If we kill you, you kill us: you kill Iraqis, we kill you... and so on. War. It's waiting it's hour. It always finds a way.

Oh, come on, diplomatic relations between the U.S. and Russia are far from stellar, but I HIGHLY doubt Russia is prepared to send troops to engage American soldiers. Do you have any idea how ridiculous your scenario sounds?

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-03-26 01:16pm

irishmick79 wrote: Even though Germany declared war against the US, there was still a fairly strong segment of society that thought war against the Germans was a bad idea.

You do realize how monumentally stupid that sounds, don't you?

*Captain, the German sub is firing at us*
*Never mind, they're at war with us, but we're not at war with them*

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-03-26 01:21pm

Oh, come on, diplomatic relations between the U.S. and Russia are far from stellar, but I HIGHLY doubt Russia is prepared to send troops to engage American soldiers. Do you have any idea how ridiculous your scenario sounds?

That's exactly what was said in the Duma. Russia is not prepared: the case was closed, of course (except for the thing they still gathered the troops for launch, hehe). It's rididculous now. If the UN recognises US actions as agression, nothing will hold Russia more.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

would the anti-war folks have supported war against Germany?

would the anti-war folks have supported war against Germany?

Re: would the anti-war folks have supported war against Germ