Pre-industrial Fantasy STGOD OOC/Rules Thread:

[madd0ct0r]

Heh, while I'd love to push the debate about unintentioned parrallels between shinto and levies in Orion and Japan, corrupt beaureacrats and the situation that precipitated the french revolution on one hand and meji restoration on the other it'd be a real distraction

And fundamentally, Orion is yours and exists primarly as your image, so it ain't important.

[Simon_Jester]

Orion is not mine, Orion is Eternal_Freedom's.

My nation is Ohio, the same name as the river and the American state, and with the same root origin (a Native American word for "the good river").

That said- you can argue there are parallels, and you're not wrong to do so... but by the same token you could argue that there are parallels between medieval Japan transitioning into and through the Tokugawa period and the very same 17th century France that I'm using for inspiration. Ultimately, all three nations are linear combinations of the same underlying variables- a large nation in the process of becoming a modern state, emerging from a fundamentally medieval order into the gunpowder era, dominated by a central monarchy.

[Simon_Jester]

Oh, Abacus, one more thing- by taking the mid-Atlantic seaboard you just erased from the universe a city-name I was planning to use in an upcoming story post, as a throwaway reference to "insert major Atlantic seaport here."

The Hampton Roads area in Virginia, being at the mouth of a fair-sized river and near the place where the Chesapeake Bay joins that Atlantic, is likely to be a major port location in any alternate universe where the geography of the North American continent is roughly the same as in the real world.

I had thought to name the port city there 'Phoebus,' with the conceit that the name was Atlantean in origin even if the original Atlantean city near that site had been destroyed nearly twelve thousand years ago, with not even visible ruins remaining to mark its location (which is somewhere under the Chesapeake Bay and a great deal of mud).

But you will most likely want to rename the location in keeping with your own ideas of how your people speak and what cultural ideas they value.

While I don't want to rush your worldbuilding... I would very much appreciate a name for that city. Or, if you have some special reason why that location should not be a major city, the name of some other great port city in your territory.

[madd0ct0r]

Orion is not mine, Orion is Eternal_Freedom's.

My nation is Ohio, the same name as the river and the American state, and with the same root origin (a Native American word for "the good river").

That said- you can argue there are parallels, and you're not wrong to do so... but by the same token you could argue that there are parallels between medieval Japan transitioning into and through the Tokugawa period and the very same 17th century France that I'm using for inspiration. Ultimately, all three nations are linear combinations of the same underlying variables- a large nation in the process of becoming a modern state, emerging from a fundamentally medieval order into the gunpowder era, dominated by a central monarchy.

Dammit. apologies on the typo.

[Abacus]

There is actually quite a lot of iron in Virginia, called "bog-iron" -- which would be a lot similar to the actual Japanese pig-iron developed from ironsand. I'm thinking I'll keep most of the actual natural resources you'd have found in that particular neck of the woods from time immemorial up to today. If there's something that I'm drastically missing, I'll have to find a convenient bit of land to go hunting for it.

I'm going to have them, as a society, having grown into something similar/identical to the Japanese -- but not transplanted as seems to be the case of that Ottoman army.

As for the disparity between a matchlock and a flintlock -- that'll just be something of a hurdle and it'll be funny seeing as how a matchlock is often of a heavier caliber; so while I'll likely lose a lot in the exchange, my rounds'll hit harder.

[Simon_Jester]

As a practical matter I wouldn't rely on that, if only because against anything like a human opponent, being hit with a musket ball is going to cause a massive, terrible wound regardless of whether the ball is physically large or small- and there's no fundamental reason why a matchlock gun is somehow automatically larger in diameter.

The advantage of the flintlock is that it 'triggers' reliably, quickly, without the need to keep a burning match-cord handy all the time (it is impractical, for instance, to have a sentry standing guard with a matchlock). This is especially an issue in wet weather; even if you keep your powder dry you have to light the match-cord. The mid-Atlantic isn't the wettest of territory, but it isn't the driest either.

Historically Japan stuck with matchlocks for a long period of time because the island isolated itself from advancing world technology around 1600. Isolation isn't a realistic option for your society because it's got land borders with neighbors, even if you weren't taking advantage of the available harbors and seaborne trade opportunities.

Again, this isn't to say you can't stick with what you have in mind- just make sure you have something prepared to compensate for your forces' limitations, some kind of genuinely effective or powerful asset your enemies cannot easily match. Because "good musketry" isn't going to be one of your military strengths, any more than it is one of mine.

[Abacus]

The Japanese actually invented a lacquer cover for matchlocks, allowing them to be fired perfectly fine in the rain. But yeah, no worries, there are some other aspects to it as well. I'm planning on magic being a far more personal thing, including the idea of "ki energy" or "ki magic" -- wherein a warrior trained proficiently in the art can use his or her inner ki energy to work various forms of enhancement magic. (increased strength, speed, agility, etc) Another part of this will be the ability to imbue said energy into the weapons they use -- allowing for more lethality or increased range, etc.

[Simon_Jester]

The ki infusion would be a helpful thing.

The problem isn't just having a cover for the matchlock so it can fire in the rain. The problem is that to use a matchlock, you have to carry around a burning piece of string all the time, where you can easily grab it and stick it into the side of your gun. If the burning string goes out for any reason, you have to re-ignite it. That's the part where damp conditions- even high humidity, which I can tell you from painful experience is pretty normal in the area you've staked out- can be a problem.

And under the best of circumstances, the fuse cord costs money, and it costs the same amount of money to keep it burning for an hour while patrolling a wall as it does to keep it burning for an hour during a battle.

So all in all, there are fairly good reasons to convert to flintlocks; nearly every culture that used firearms did so fairly quickly one they found out about the firearm design. It's not purely an aesthetic choice. My guys are self-consciously a bit behind the curve technologically, and even they use flintlocks.

[Abacus]

Alright, I'll just use flintlocks. Some picture references I'll be using are going to have matchlocks in them, however.

As for ships of the line...I wonder how (the appropriated) [Korean-made] turtle ship would fair against one. It's a smaller target, armed with cannon, and able to maneuver by oar as well as by sail...

But yeah, I'll be using galleons, most of which would be functional and usable, but not the same level of technology of E_F's ship of the line (most likely).

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oooo, galleons, how fun. As for not being on Orion's technology level, don't sweat it. I think I have the most powerful warships in the game at present.

And I'm building more

[Simon_Jester]

I do believe that honor goes to the Aztecs and their mighty flagships of raw elemental weird-ass demonic sorcery. And you can tell Raw Shark I called them that.

Alright, I'll just use flintlocks. Some picture references I'll be using are going to have matchlocks in them, however.

As for ships of the line...I wonder how (the appropriated) [Korean-made] turtle ship would fair against one. It's a smaller target, armed with cannon, and able to maneuver by oar as well as by sail...

Within your 'inland sea' (the Chesapeake Bay) a fleet of galleys have some interesting strengths and weaknesses against conventional ship-rigged vessels. There are a lot of shallow areas in the Bay and numerous rivers letting into it, and an oceangoing sailing ship cannot safely travel through those shallows or up those rivers without high risk of running aground. A shallow-draft fleet of oared warships has its advantages in such a scenario. Moreover, the wind is rarely all that favorable on the Chesapeake because the Bay runs north-south while the prevailing winds often blow east and west.

On the other side of the coin, though, it's going to be very hard for you to match the sheer volume of big-gun firepower aboard an Orion warship. Being able to outmaneuver them at will and go wherever you please does you only so much good if you are outgunned in all places.

I had my own ideas for how the Confederated Republics would counter that, but it is now your problem to research and work out independently.

[Abacus]

OK, so I've typed up about ten pages of information on my nation, history, culture, society, religion, magic, etc. Where should I put it?

On the other side of the coin, though, it's going to be very hard for you to match the sheer volume of big-gun firepower aboard an Orion warship. Being able to outmaneuver them at will and go wherever you please does you only so much good if you are outgunned in all places.

I had my own ideas for how the Confederated Republics would counter that, but it is now your problem to research and work out independently.

I have the impression that I'll need to rely further on magic than may be intended at some points... >_>

[Eternal_Freedom]

That's what Simon's Ohioans do. It's either that, or they take a a ten-gun salvo of 36 pounds of canister shot or grapeshot to the face.

[Abacus]

As far as the history of my nation is concerned, I'm going to have it a bit of a mystery. They know names and vague ideas, but in actually it seems as if a lost Atlantean noble house or group of refugees fled to this new continent and assimilated with the local indigenous population. Over the generations this would change them into what they are today. This ruling family created what would become the Imperial Family, apparently having made some form of pact or agreement with a deity that now slumbers beneath.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ooo, pact with sleeping deity, fun!

[Simon_Jester]

Technically this is for orders of battle, but if you want to post a big slab of backstory I STRONGLY recommend using this thread:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 5&t=164325

Note that at this time you CANNOT edit your posts, so it's probably just as well to link to a Googledoc or something else that you can actually make alterations to if you change your mind, instead...

...

I have two specific questions, Abacus. One is, did you read my post where I asked you for a city name? I really need the name of a major prominent Atlantic port city...

The other is, did you read my post titled "deep history" a page or two back? It sounds like you're tapping into my backstory ideas, and I appreciate that as it's kind of flattering. But... I want to be sure you understand them, if you're going to do that. If you're going to proceed with total disregard for my deep backstory draft that's absolutely fine too...

But I'd prefer not to be caught in the middle situation, where you're using ideas one way that I had created with the idea of using them another way.

As far as the history of my nation is concerned, I'm going to have it a bit of a mystery. They know names and vague ideas, but in actually it seems as if a lost Atlantean noble house or group of refugees fled to this new continent and assimilated with the local indigenous population.

Assuming you're trying to tie into my ENTIRELY OPTIONAL deep history draft which you are, I repeat, free to totally ignore...

At the end of the last ice age, there were Atlantean colonies on the east coast of the US, probably stretching most of the way to the Mississippi River if not farther. But they all collapsed literally into the Stone Age because their magic-based technology stopped working with the destruction of Atlantis, and they knew no other technology more sophisticated than banging rocks together and growing crops in small gardens.

These Atlanteans didn't merge into the indigenous population; they were the indigenous population. Further west you had Siberian-descended cultures (the people who in our timeline are known as the Native Americans) who had no direct part in the destruction of Atlantis. The Siberians had intact religions and magic and were frankly better at living in a Neolithic lifestyle than the post-apocalyptic Atlanteans were. Accordingly they were able to spread west, probably clear over to the Atlantic in places after enough demographic drift.

Then again, it may well be that your nation's ideas about how it was founded (self-imaging as heroic Atlantean refugees from across the sea mixing into 'unenlightened natives') may be no more accurate than the traditional Japanese belief that their emperor is a direct descendant of Amaterasu by way of the first emperor Jimmu... I very much prefer the idea that no one actually knows the facts about what happened to Atlantis and that most people's ideas of what happened to its people are whatever self-serving notions they personally choose to believe. It's fully in keeping with the typical level of knowledge most people had about ethnology and ancient history in the real world circa 1750-1800, after all.

This ruling family created what would become the Imperial Family, apparently having made some form of pact or agreement with a deity that now slumbers beneath.

If we stick with my 'deep history,' you are in fact right on top of the remains of what used to be a fairly prominent Atlantean colony state, Phoebus. Which got the ground lowered out from under it and sank into mud during the Atlantean Civil War, in the same event that turned the lower valley of the Susquehanna River into the Chesapeake Bay. There is very, very little left to indicate that it ever existed, most of which is under ten or more meters of sediment and water.

[Dark Hellion]

Hi, kinda realized that this is running again. I have time again for the next 2 months to maybe participate a bit more. After that I will be student teaching which will probably kill most of my time.

I was (and kinda still am) playing the Concordance of the the Nine, a race of dragons who tend to be overly enigmatic. Simon forgot to mention me (shame on you Simon ) I am still possibly planning to attempt to have some type of impromptu political meeting (for Simon and some of the others, think Shroomies BEEEF) but may have to change some stuff depending on the players in the game.

A kinda OoB (mostly done, I just didn't add the dramatis personae that I wanted) is located here http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2#p3942712

[Simon_Jester]

Hi, kinda realized that this is running again. I have time again for the next 2 months to maybe participate a bit more. After that I will be student teaching which will probably kill most of my time.

I was (and kinda still am) playing the Concordance of the the Nine, a race of dragons who tend to be overly enigmatic. Simon forgot to mention me (shame on you Simon )...

I mostly forgot to mention you because you don't occupy a lot of land. If you weren't coming back, you didn't leave a hole in the map, and I was trying to tip off Abacus about holes in the map that he might fill.

[Abacus]

No worries, I'm typing everything up in an Open Office doc, so I can reference and edit it until I'm satisfied (which will be never).

As to your first post, yes, I did catch the part where you wanted to have a city-state on the Atlantic coast, near Chesapeake. Since I'm controlling the entire bay and most of that little peninsula, I've moved them a bit more outwards and to the north -- so they're on my border. There's likely to be raids/conquest attempts against them from various warrior clans within my nation. I had noticed that you seemed to have a developed timeline, and since you're effectively the mod for the game, I decided to use it a bit. But that's more of a historiographical perspective and won't have any true bearing on the present day.

[Abacus]

I did the thing...

[Simon_Jester]

On a side note, I actually live in the general area you planted your country, so I find the references to harsh winters and hills overlooking the Chesapeake Bay somewhat amusing. Though I suppose there must be SOME places where there are hills close to the bay, especially if you have low standards of what constitutes a harsh winter, or a hill.

"Verdant" is spot-on, though; vegetation grows pretty fast here, because the climate is fairly wet and quite warm for much of the year. If you don't keep land cleared, over a generation or so it can easily turn into some very tangled second-growth forest. We're lucky we don't have a kudzu problem. Correction: we do have a kudzu problem, according to my research. Silly me, assuming we didn't. Should have known better.

I'm quite sure you could grow plenty of rice here, though you might have to adapt it a little to the local climate. There's plenty of swampy land.
___________________________

I will note that 100 points is, by the standards of other people's order of battle, which I suggest you might want to read... not a ship of serious fighting force. Typically, the lightest ship-rigged vessels with three masts and respectable broadside armament are rated at something more like 200-300 points. A war galley with a few heavy guns is more like what most people call 100 points. 25 points is a river gunboat with only a handful of very light cannon and a small force of fighting men, suitable for boarding. At the other end, the heaviest warships not empowered by fiendish magic can still run up to a thousand points or more.

I say this not for myself, because there is literally no way you will ever end up fighting my navy, since my navy consists entirely of unseaworthy river galleys, or ships on the Great Lakes that would have to go over Niagara Falls to reach you. But you should be aware of what others are doing.

Hm.

A 1000-point hero is certainly possible, and Jub has already done it. But by implication... that is a person who can kill an army of a several hundred well trained soldiers with adequate weapons, personally. Or who could somehow overcome all the soldiers and firepower of an artillery battery, or slay gigantic monsters that could splatter whole platoons of normal men with ease, or singlehandedly capture a great ship.

When I try to imagine such a warrior, I am stuck thinking of figures like Achilles or Cu Chulainn, whose fighting prowess is literally legendary. Again, I have no problem whatsoever with you doing that, as long as you're aware that you are doing it.

In my opinion, an individual fighter who is worth even ten points, arguably even five, has to be doing something distinctly unnatural or supernatural to be that dangerous.

And I want to stress that this is totally reasonable and you are 100% within your rights to do that. If you're going to do that, then for the sake of good art... I advise you to make sure you write them as being very, very special people. I know I will do so, should I ever have the occasion to write your people showing up in my sphere of influence.

___________________________

No worries, I'm typing everything up in an Open Office doc, so I can reference and edit it until I'm satisfied (which will be never).

As to your first post, yes, I did catch the part where you wanted to have a city-state on the Atlantic coast, near Chesapeake. Since I'm controlling the entire bay and most of that little peninsula, I've moved them a bit more outwards and to the north -- so they're on my border...

No no no... I didn't want to run a city. I just wanted to know what the city was named. You can do as you please, I just want the name of a major seaport in your region.

So forget that I ever asserted that a place named Phoebus ever existed, it genuinely does not matter. But I was writing a story post before you joined, that used a city name from your region, so now I can't use that city name. That's why I need a new name of a new city, which is entirely up to you.

There's likely to be raids/conquest attempts against them from various warrior clans within my nation. I had noticed that you seemed to have a developed timeline, and since you're effectively the mod for the game, I decided to use it a bit. But that's more of a historiographical perspective and won't have any true bearing on the present day.

I deny any modship; I'm just obsessive-compulsively informative and very talkative.

And you are under no obligation to pay any attention to my timeline. I only ask that if you do, purely of your own free will, choose to tie into stuff I created, that you understand what I did. Which I

Though I don't know how we convince TRR to come back and do stuff.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That's a fascinating OOB/culture, but I second Simon's comments about the points costs. Especially for ships and those Court Sorcerers. You're basically saying one Court Sorcerer is equal in value to one of my new 3-decked 100-gun battleships.

Also, I love the "Northern Barbarians" bit. Naturally, we educated, civilised Orions politely sneer at such backward religious concepts and court hierarchies.

[Simon_Jester]

E_F, it is entirely possible that his court sorcerers are just that frightening. They wouldn't be the first wizard to be rated so highly. I'd always expected things like that in this setting- which is why my armies work the way they do.

For that matter, my own forces already fought and killed a magic-using being whose power is lesser than this, but at least of the same order of magnitude (Xazonar's personal point value was 666, naturally). Even a loser like Guillory had a few hundred points worth of powers and resources at his command.

It's somewhat easier to imagine a wizard who can do such things, who is the equal to thousands of men on a battlefield, compared to imagining someone who can achieve such a level of terrifying power with a sword.

When I have a better sense of what the sword saints are capable of, my concerns about them may well evaporate too- because a hero like Achilles very well might be worth a thousand points, and if you've read the Iliad you won't sneer at that description.

[Abacus]

When you think of sword saints, their point allocation is in regards to their abilities with weapons *and* ki magic/energy. By nature, most of them would be hermits, seeking out greater knowledge and understanding through communion with Nature and the gods; their minds beyond the minutiae of daily life. Those few that are actively part of normal life tend to be treated as the most trusted of companions or bodyguards. One does guard the Imperial Family, being a distant relation to them and bound therefore by blood. And yes, I am aware of how dangerous they could be in terms of dancing too close to OP. But it's more stylistic and I'd never be unreasonable. I've been in too many rps to think otherwise or not first discuss something with the players involved.

I'd be lying if there weren't any anime-related inspirations to these guys, nor historical influence (Miyamoto Musashi, Yagyu Sekishusai, et al). A close aproximation, in animated terms, would be the One Piece characters Dracule Mihawk and Roronoa Zoro.

The Court Sorcerers and Magicians are certainly the most unique. There are dozens, hundreds even, of acolytes who hope to inherit their power and knowledge, but it's guarded jealously. And yes, they would indeed be equal in value to one of your new, 3-decked, 100-gunned battleships E_F. This is part of what I meant when I talked about magic being far more dominant than technology for my nation. But because they're so few in number, and have various duties, it's not likely they'd be encountered unless it's a crazy crisis of phenomenal proportions. There are magical items that are sometimes used by the Imperial Court, that are anathema to magic, to keep them in check and keep any would-be dictators from trying to dominate the empire by magic. Not a few of the former emperors were sorcerers as well.

The influence behind the choice of the sorcerers power level comes from old tales of wizards and such like Merlin, Raistlin, Dr. Strange, and Gandalf.

[Abacus]

And yeah, I'm aware the galleons aren't worth much -- but then they're not suppose to be. They're mostly just there to try and intercept, maybe harry an attacking naval force - but the idea that they could stand toe to toe with anyone else? Not likely. Like I said, they're used for trade and discovery more or as much as for war.