General Police Abuse Thread

[Lonestar]

I'm sure many people have seen the aftermath video of what happened in Minnesota last night. The officer is not acting like a innocent man, or a person who should be anywhere near a gun in it. I'm having a hard time envisioning a scenario where the victim was threatening officer Fife. I'm certain that the officer approached the car looking for something, did not listen to what the citizen was saying, heard the word "gun" and popped him. I don't think he woke up yesterday saying he was gonna go get a thug, but he fucked up and did so monstrously.

My experience on traffic stops while transporting a firearm:

The thing with concealed carry(or even just transporting firearms) you have to be careful as fuck. Maybe you'll get a cop who knows that a permit means you're about as vetted as you'll ever be in terms of being a good guy. More likely you'll get a cop who doesn't think that the proles should have guns and will shoot or at the very least point a gun at you while demanding you get disarmed. The man who got shot tonight probably didn't think that the officer would skip over the "I have a permit" part and only hear "gun". How many cops are killed at traffic stops by people who claim they have a carry permit and then shoot them? Probably not many, right?

I'm a white male, and while I've never been shot by the police, and generally speaking my experiences with them have been good/neutral, I have been pulled over while transporting firearms before. As it happened, it was coming back from a range where they take your driver's license and return it as you leave. I had put it in my drag bag rather than my wallet.

So, I had to explain to the officer what was going on with my license. He told me to pop the trunk, and get out of the car with my back facing him. Then he told me to slowly walk backwards towards the trunk, after which he told me to open it and point at the side pocket where it was. Then he told me to leave my car keys on my trunk and get back in my car.

Later he came back(with keys), asked me if I had a AR-15, I did, he asked what kind, S&W, he said he had a Colt then handed me my ticket. So, you know, there's that.

You could make an argument he was being cautious and probably he was. No harm, no foul. But this happened in broad daylight and, frankly, I can't help but wonder what the result would have been if I were a minority or if it were dark out, or if I looked more shabby, or had a junky car, or if this officer just had a bad morning.

[Raw Shark]

[snip] frankly, I can't help but wonder what the result would have been if I were a minority or if it were dark out, or if I looked more shabby, or had a junky car [snip]

Looking shabby when it's dark out is part of my job description. I have to work at night dressed like a pauper to make money without getting robbed. I don't actually hate the cops, they just act like they hate me. I don't want to think that they're all completely unredeemable assholes, but they prove that wrong sometimes.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I assume you watched both sets of video, from different angles? The gun was in his pocket (according to the video, and the witnesses).

I have seen both videos. In both of them his right hand is behind either the car or the body of an officer. In the transcript of the video an officer is heard saying "He is going for the gun". Now the gun is quite small and was recovered from his pocket. How do you think the officers knew he had a gun? Obviously, they saw it. Whether it became exposed when they knocked him down and were on top of him, or one of the officers felt it, or he actually did try to grab it.

I cannot speak to whether or not he was the person they were called in to investigate. He was also not in a fight with the police. He seemed to be cooperating [retroactive edit: though I did have the first video that showed the tackle muted, so they could have yelled or something and he was not-compliant], they tackled him, he did not go limp and seemed to be trying to right himself, but he was not fighting them.

There was an obvious struggle with his hands otherwise they should have been able to control them easily. Before the start of the first video they had already attempted to taser him twice. According to the reports I've read he was being frisked and began to pull away and grab at his pocket and attempted to flee. If I understand it correctly he is a convicted felon so looking at things as clearly as we can see I think he was thinking of how to dispose of the firearm he was carrying since he is a restricted person and I don't think he intended to harm the officers but that's the advantage of our perspective.

Now, I would be willing to stipulate that it was a miscommunication and the one officer reacted to that with lethal force, but that gun was in his pocket, not drawn. Which last I checked makes it a bad shoot on the basis of the facts of the case--if not necessarily the reasonable perception of the shooting officer.

It doesn't have to be drawn for this to be justified. If Sterling attempted to grab it or wouldn't remove his hands away from his pockets that would be enough and I fully support that as I have personally witnessed how fast a physical struggle over a firearm can get out of control. One moment you have the gun under control the next you and are your partner are shot. (I wasn't shot but my coworkers were)

[Kamakazie Sith]

[snip] frankly, I can't help but wonder what the result would have been if I were a minority or if it were dark out, or if I looked more shabby, or had a junky car [snip]

Looking shabby when it's dark out is part of my job description. I have to work at night dressed like a pauper to make money without getting robbed. I don't actually hate the cops, they just act like they hate me. I don't want to think that they're all completely unredeemable assholes, but they prove that wrong sometimes.

I can shed some light on this but you won't like the answer and with good reason. Property crimes are a hot button issue among people and their elected representatives so that translates into pressure from those elected officials to the police department which in my opinion leads to NY stop and frisk situations. There have been times where I've had to tell a supervisor that being out at 2am on a bike and wearing a backpack is not reasonable suspicion for a stop. The only times I've heard these requests from supervisors is during these times of high pressure.

[Broomstick]

Up until now the protests over the recent police killings of black men have been peaceful but there are now reports of police fatally shot in Dallas, possibly by snipers. The situation is "developing" as the talking heads say, with reports of 1 to 3 officers deceased and 4 to 10 police shot. No word on whether or not innocent bystanders where injured - the crowds scattered when the shooting started.

[Wild Zontargs]

It looks like a planned attack.

DALLAS -- Dallas Police Chief David Brown has confirmed at least 10 police officers were shot and at least three were killed in an attack by two snipers in downtown Dallas at a protest of officer-involved shootings across the country.

"Tonight it appears that two snipers shot ten police officers from elevated positions during the protest/rally," Brown wrote in a statement. "Three officers are deceased, two are in surgery and three are in critical condition. An intensive search for suspects is currently underway. No suspects are in custody at this time. We ask that any citizen with information regarding the shootings tonight call 214-671-3482."

The shot officers include both Dallas police and DART officers.

It remains an active-shooter situation. Police have asked everyone to get to safety and avoid downtown Dallas.

[Channel72]

The incident in Minnesota is devastating. The officer is clearly unhinged. I am surprised how calm and focused Diamond Reynolds (the woman who recorded the live-video) is compared with the officer. This is really heart-breaking to watch. This officer is really going to have to be crucified publicly in order for African Americans to believe that anybody cares.

[Wild Zontargs]

EDIT: false info removed.

[The Romulan Republic]

Jesus Christ.

I don't know what's more horrible- the fact that some people will defend it as justified by the history of police brutality and racism, or the fact that this incident will be used to discredit the legitimate goals of Black Lives Matter and other civil rights protesters, and allow the far Right to paint them as terrorists who need to be cracked down on- even if we don't really know yet who was responsible and what their political affiliations were, if any.

Regardless, my sympathies go to the victims and their loved ones.

They also go to the peaceful protesters who will see their cause branded with guilt by association over this.

And fuck whoever did this. Terrorism is terrorism is terrorism, whatever the cause, whatever the motive. And whichever unmitigated scumbags are responsible has only hurt the causes of civil rights, racial justice, and Justice System reform.

This also reinforces my concerns that political violence is increasingly becoming the norm in American politics once again. Hopefully we'll only descend to 1960s levels of shit, and not 1860s levels.

[Meest]

The incident in Minnesota is devastating. The officer is clearly unhinged. I am surprised how calm and focused Diamond Reynolds (the woman who recorded the live-video) is compared with the officer. This is really heart-breaking to watch. This officer is really going to have to be crucified publicly in order for African Americans to believe that anybody cares.

That's the thing, the focus has to be on making sure these cops don't get away with it, and leave the rest of them out of it. It's so silly to show the same discrimination based on uniform vs skin, just focus on making sure they aren't getting slaps on the wrist and paying for their crimes. How many of these cops that are being hated on haven't even had to pull their firearm out in their entire career, or how many parking enforcement officers will feel the fury of these illogical protesters. Won't solve a thing unless the underlying issues are tackled.

[Wild Zontargs]

Additional officer shot, possible bomb in downtown Dallas.

Photos of suspect:

[Broomstick]

I don't know what's more horrible- the fact that some people will defend it as justified by the history of police brutality and racism, or the fact that this incident will be used to discredit the legitimate goals of Black Lives Matter and other civil rights protesters, and allow the far Right to paint them as terrorists who need to be cracked down on- even if we don't really know yet who was responsible and what their political affiliations were, if any.

Yes, welcome to the 1960's all over again. Those who idealize that decade conveniently forget that for awhile shit like this became a sort of norm.

[Simon_Jester]

IF this guy turns out to be one of the shooters, one wonders how it will impact the way people view "open carry" as a statement of political values at future political events.

[The Romulan Republic]

The people who oppose open carry will largely continue to oppose it.

The people who support it will largely continue to support it, with an unspoken disclaimer in some cases of "except for Black people".

[Lonestar]

IF this guy turns out to be one of the shooters, one wonders how it will impact the way people view "open carry" as a statement of political values at future political events.

He isn't the shooter, everyone in America thought he was for 30 minutes, but he was interacting with the police peacefully(at a different location) when the shooting started from an elevated location(parking garage?)

[The Romulan Republic]

And now, due to having his image plastered all over the media as a possible shooter, is a potential target for harassment and reprisals.

God damn fucking speculatory "journalism".

[Alyrium Denryle]

Mod Decree

In the interest of not having this thread,and the other dedicated threads that has been devoted to related topics repeat themselves I am issuing the following decree:

Gun Control is not the topic. Police Abuse is the topic. Gun Control is irrelevant. If you want to talk about gun control in the context of the Dallas sniper, do so in the Gun Control thread.

This thread is the Police Abuse thread. If you want to talk about the developments in the Sniper Attack, do so in the Sniper Attack Thread

If you want to discuss what you think the repercussions will be with respect to police abuse, #BLM (as opposed to BLM which is the Bureau of Land Management, that is my personal, not official, caveat) etc that is properly located here. In this thread.

Obviously the Sniper Attack thread will also contain discussion of the political implications of said sniper attack. Such discussion is relevant there too, but I will permit it here as well.

[Simon_Jester]

[apologies, had not read Alyrium's modpost. Moving my reply]

[Lost Soal]

So, apparently the police seized the store surveillance system from the Alton Sterling shooting without a warrant and now are claiming the FBI have it, who refuse to confirm or deny the fact.

Daily Beast.

Baton Rouge Police Took Alton Sterling Surveillance Video Without a Warrant or Permission
The store’s owner said minutes after the deadly shooting, officers took a hard drive against his wishes and there’s no record they even asked a judge to do it.
BATON ROUGE, Louisiana—Minutes after two cops killed Alton Sterling outside of a convenience store, police confiscated all surveillance video of the incident without a warrant and allegedly without permission.
An attorney for the owner of the Triple S Mart, Abdullah Muflahi, told The Daily Beast a hard drive containing the complete recording of the Sterling’s death at the hands of Baton Rouge Police Department Officers Blane Salamoni and Howie Lake was unlawfully taken by police. Muflahi showed The Daily Beast the barren cabinet where the hard drive had been.
All that’s left of the storage unit is a sole barren wire.
That wire went out to surveillance cameras on the front of the building. One of the cameras would have had a direct line of sight to where Sterling was standing when he was tasered, tackled, shot and killed by police.

Another camera outside may have captured the original dispute between Sterling and a homeless man who called 911 after saying Sterling “pulled a gun” on him. The call brought the officers to the store where they confronted Sterling, who matched the description given to 911.

Muflahi recorded the cellphone video of Sterling being shot six times. When other police responded to the shooting, they “immediately put [Muflahi] in the back of their car,” according to lawyer Joel Porter.
Muflahi said police asked him to give them the surveillance footage but he refused unless they got a warrant. An unidentified officer said he was going to obtain a warrant, according to Muflahi, but “I never received a warrant.”
That’s because a warrant was not issued, according to the Baton Rouge District Attorney’s Office and the clerk of court for the 19th Judicial Court District. Police never even filed an application for a warrant, according the D.A.’s office and the court.
When The Daily Beast requested the both the surveillance video and the supposed warrant from the Baton Rouge Police Department, a lawyer from the department first denied the request by saying they could not turn over any documents from a “criminal investigation.” When told that a warrant is a public court document and could not be withheld, the lawyer then outright refused to confirm or deny if a warrant for the surveillance video even existed.
After backtracking on the existence of the warrant, the attorney backtracked on the possession of the surveillance video, saying that the Federal Bureau of Investigation had the hard drive.
“My client has not been informed of that,” said Porter, the attorney for the store owner.
The FBI refused to confirm or deny the police department’s claim.
“This is part of an ongoing investigation and we are unable to comment at this time,” Craig Betbeze, an FBI spokesperson told The Daily Beast.
Even if the FBI does have the hard drive now, it could have only taken possession from police—again, without a warrant or permission—after the Justice Department opened an investigation on the afternoon following the shooting. The FBI was not at the store when Muflahi returned after approximately 90 minutes at police headquarters.
Whoever has the video now, Muflahi’s attorney wants it returned.
“I’m probably drafting a legal motion over the weekend,” Porter said. “We want it back, along with everything that’s on it. Unadulterated.”

[Raw Shark]

I can shed some light on this but you won't like the answer and with good reason. Property crimes are a hot button issue among people and their elected representatives so that translates into pressure from those elected officials to the police department which in my opinion leads to NY stop and frisk situations. There have been times where I've had to tell a supervisor that being out at 2am on a bike and wearing a backpack is not reasonable suspicion for a stop. The only times I've heard these requests from supervisors is during these times of high pressure.

Thanks for your insight.

[Executor32]

Additional officer shot, possible bomb in downtown Dallas.

Photos of suspect:
<snip images>

Not a suspect.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Additional officer shot, possible bomb in downtown Dallas.

Photos of suspect:
<Snipped Images>

Please stop posting nothing but gigantic images when a linked article that contains said images will suffice. That man is also not a suspect, and never actually was if you paid attention.

[Wild Zontargs]

Please stop posting nothing but gigantic images when a linked article that contains said images will suffice. That man is also not a suspect, and never actually was if you paid attention.

Apologies for the oversized images. The man was a suspect at the time I posted that. If you really need me to, I can probably dig up the YT clip of last night's news broadcast and police message containing that photo.

Edit: YT link with timestamp. First he calls him a person of interest, but then says:
"If anyone knows, or recognizes this picture, please, immediately call 911. Do not approach this suspect. We'll bring him to justice."

[Wild Zontargs]

Ghetto edit: here's a tweet from the "Official Twitter Account for the Dallas Police Dept." showing his photo and saying "This is one of our suspects. Please help us find him!"

[Broomstick]

The problem with posting the pictures is that if the person in question is cleared the postings with his picture, as well as text talking about him as a "person of interest" or "suspect" remain and can lead to an innocent person receiving death threats or other harassment. For years. This is not cool.

The mods may want to consider a policy of editing such posts just so this forum does not contribute to such problems. Of course, where the person in question does turn out to be a real suspect or guilty party that's a different matter (but I still have to condemn any form of vigilante justice).