Are we fighting the last war?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-03-26 02:28pm

There are old sayings and the reasons why they're old is because they're usually true in some form or another. There is an old saying that most new wars start out by fighting the last war. Meaning that there are some sides that will fight a war the way that the last war was fought and it is uslaly the side that can see a new way of fighting that has an edge as the Germans did with the blitzkrieg as many Eurpoean powers were still in WWI trench warfare mindsets.

So my concern here is if the US armed forces are fighting this war as if they were fighting in the Gulf War? Look at the way many in power are "shocked" that the Shias are not rising up as expected in the last war. Well, gee, maybe its because the last time a certain someone's dad asked them to rise up we left them to be slaughtered. So why do they THINK the Shias aren't rising up? Many analysts seem to be confused because they say on one hand, Sadaam has oppressed them for decades so this is their chance, why aren't they seizing it?? Well, as reiterated, they were fucked by us last time they did it, I for one don't blame them for sitting this fight out.

Then there's the issue of surrendering troops. I KNOW I just KNOW in my gut that they were expecting droves of surrendering Iraqis ala the First Gulf War. In fact alot of analysts were perdicting that the only thing that would be bogging us down would be the HORDE of surrendering troops and finding out what to do with them. There did not seem to be ANY contingency plan for troops NOT surrendering en masse. This fact also seems to have caught the Coalition leaders by surprise. Again, what did they expect? Iraqis aren't fighting for Kuwait, they haven't been bombed for forty days, they're fighting for their homes and land (see Soviets who despised Stalin but sure as hell weren't going to let Nazis take their land.) So why the hell should they surrender so easily??

Now we also have an issue of security. The supply lines are tenuosly secured at best and the fiasco with the supply column that was ambushed SHOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED. They are rushing to get to Baghdad and have essentially outstripped their supply train and as it struggles to catch up, no one is protecting it. They have put all their eggs in this basket of getting to Baghdad as soon as possible and consequences be damned. Once again, this is a hundred hour ground war mentality and we are currenly entering day 7 of the conflict with the goal in sight but a hell of a lot of obstacles in the way. BTW would ANYONE be surprised that even if we take Baghdad and kill Saddaam that his Fedyain and the Bath party officials would STILL need to be rooted out of nearly every city in the country? This is not ROTJ, the Evil Empire will not simply disappear after the bad man is dead.

Inconsistencies with the military's story. Don't say you have taken Basra and Um Qasaar and when there is resistance in the city two days AFTER you said you took it THEN tell me that what you meant was that you secured it and was moving on but it actually wasn't taken. Who's in charge of the military press releases?? Bill Clinton?? SECURE YOUR FUCKING FLANKS AND REAR.

When I see some of the stretching and hemming and hawing I am reminded of the way the miltary handled Vietnam in the press and it is awful to see that. SAY that you have not taken these places, SAY that you have bypassed them in the hopes that they may not be a threat but don't say you secured them and later on say, oh, what we meant was... it's just fucking stupid and makes you look ridiculous even to pro military guys like myself.

SO I guess with these examples as guides I am inviting discussion on whther the US is stuck fighting the last war.

Caveats: DO NOT COME HERE TO FLAME OR SPREAD ANY OF YOUR PRO OR ANTI BULLSHIT THAT SEEMS TO BE CONSUMING THE OTHER POLITICS THREADS.

ANY flame wars or unsupported anti US, Anti Military, Pro US, Pro Militray nonsense will force me to lock or delete this thread. I am inviting DISCOURSE and DEBATE NOT the bullshit that is going on with people's personal viewpoints here. This issue concerns me because of the lives that may be needlessly lost because of this blunder.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-26 02:31pm

Stravo wrote:Who's in charge of the military press releases?? Bill Clinton?? SECURE YOUR FUCKING FLANKS AND REAR.

Stravo, you obviously haven't read the works of Colonel-General Heinz
Guderian.

The art of Blitzkrieg is not to worry constantly about your flanks. The
object is to keep pushing ahead ahead ahead, hell-for-leather, driving
an armored wedge deep into enemy lines with no regard for your own
flanks, and getting into his rear area lines to wreak havoc.

Patton's 3rd Army didn't worry about their flanks in their breakout across
France in 1944

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-26 02:44pm

Stravo wrote:SECURE YOUR FUCKING FLANKS AND REAR.

Right, inflict as many losses on your self as possibul and prolong the campaign as long as possibul, while coming no closer to the prize. Congratulations, you've reverted from Blitzkrieg and Airland to the tactics of WW1.

Wasn't such a reversion what you where against?

In case you have not noticed, all combat losses have been on the front lines or only a few miles from them. The flanks and rear as as secure as there going to get.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-03-26 02:51pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Stravo wrote:Who's in charge of the military press releases?? Bill Clinton?? SECURE YOUR FUCKING FLANKS AND REAR.
Stravo, you obviously haven't read the works of Colonel-General Heinz
Guderian.

The art of Blitzkrieg is not to worry constantly about your flanks. The
object is to keep pushing ahead ahead ahead, hell-for-leather, driving
an armored wedge deep into enemy lines with no regard for your own
flanks, and getting into his rear area lines to wreak havoc.

Patton's 3rd Army didn't worry about their flanks in their breakout across
France in 1944

You make good points. We in the Army need to concentrate on training our CSS units in basic soldiering skills. When the enemy ambushes you, you don't stop, get out of your vehicles and surrender. You return fire and move quickly out of the kill sack. I blame that CSS unit's company commander and platoon leader for the actions of their troops under fire.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-03-26 02:54pm

from a tactical view, the US and UK alliance is kicking the shit out of whatever comes in it's way. When we engage on our terms, or even in a major counter attack, as seen today, victory is decisive. That being said, i can't understand what is Gen. Franks is doing. 3rd Infantry has been sitting '50 miles from Baghdad' for days now. What the hell is it doing besides presenting a nice target for the Republican Guard? The Turkey situation was a fucking fiasco...now only other heavy division (4th) available is sitting in transports off of the Arabian Pennsula! Yet we send in the 3rd anyway. Also i think you hit the nail right on the head, the brass at the DoD didn't expect the resistance to be as stiff and the counted too much on an early uprising. Now i do believe that the uprising will happen, it will just take that much longer to start, the people need to realize that this is indeed the real deal. That is going to cost us lives. More than we bargained for. I think 3rd INF is going to sit outside Baghdad until 1 MEF breaks through restance and forms up with the 101st on it's flank AND not attack Baghdad until the 4th INF is landed and moving to support. I also think they are going to wait as long as possible before the assault for popular uprising. What i really want to see, is how the Kurds are used and what Turkey does in response.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-03-26 03:18pm

One edit Colonel: 4ID's soldiers are either en route to Kuwait or are already there. I don't think their equipment is floating off the Arabian Penninsula -- believe it's also en route. My guess is that they'll be in theater for RSOI the middle of next week. I further surmise that they will join 3ID as either the main or supporting effort for an attack on Baghdad. That's my analysis.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-26 03:21pm

Forth Infantry's equipment is steaming for Kuwait; I believe the first vessels have arrived or should very shortly. The division won't getting into action before April 1st however. It also has some corps assets along with it.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-03-26 03:22pm

jegs2 wrote:One edit Colonel: 4ID's soldiers are either en route to Kuwait or are already there. I don't think their equipment is floating off the Arabian Penninsula -- believe it's also en route. My guess is that they'll be in theater for RSOI the middle of next week. I further surmise that they will join 3ID as either the main or supporting effort for an attack on Baghdad. That's my analysis.

IIRC Wes Clark was bitching about it on NBC yesterday. in that report they stated that ETA of 4th Infantry's heavies was first week of April at the earliest.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-03-26 03:24pm

It looks as if denying 4th ID the Northern front has really put a crimp in our plans and you have to womder if there will be reprecussions to Turkey for their decision and the consequences that emanate from that decision.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-03-26 03:29pm

If they can get off of the boat, I believe that elements if not a majority will be jetted up to that huge military airfield in western Iraq and march for Baghdad from there.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-26 03:45pm

Knife wrote:If they can get off of the boat, I believe that elements if not a majority will be jetted up to that huge military airfield in western Iraq and march for Baghdad from there.

Do you realizes how many thousands of sorties by C-17's and C-5's would be needed to move the forth infantry by air? Well to give you an idea of it, the 10,000 man light infantry divisions America formed a while back needed 1000 C-141 sorties to move.

The 4th Infantry however is a heavy mechanized unit. Each tank would need its own heavy transport, though the air force wont fly M1's without something on the lines of a direct order from the Secretary of Defense. The things are just awful for the airframes and floors. We'd be looking at a few thousand missions, most of them by heavy transport aircraft. Thats impossibul.

It would be faster to drive, and they'd be traversing open desert for much of the way.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-03-26 04:00pm

The Medina Division is making a direct run at 3rd Army now. not 1st Marine as said before

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Mar26.html

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-26 04:05pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:The Medina Division is making a direct run at 3rd Army now. not 1st Marine as said before

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Mar26.html

If they actually attack, rather then say digging in 10 miles away and daring Third Infantry to attack them, they're just insane. While they can hid inside a web of triple A and buildings while stationary, on the move Longbow is going to take them apart.

Its also being reported that the Basra "breakout" is real. But that the British allowed about 120 armored vehicles to leave unhindered so they could engage them in the open with aircraft

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-03-26 04:06pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:The Medina Division is making a direct run at 3rd Army now. not 1st Marine as said before

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Mar26.html

It's looking like Saddam (or whoever is in charge) has ordered a counterattack, which is pretty stupid IMO. In the defense, US forces can use the advantages of superior arms and technology to pick apart the advancing enemy. He'd have been better served to intermix all of those forces in the major cities IOT force a costly MOUT fight. Now, our dangerous air power can lay waste their advancing columns...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-26 04:10pm

jegs2 wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:The Medina Division is making a direct run at 3rd Army now. not 1st Marine as said before

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Mar26.html
It's looking like Saddam (or whoever is in charge) has ordered a counterattack, which is pretty stupid IMO. In the defense, US forces can use the advantages of superior arms and technology to pick apart the advancing enemy. He'd have been better served to intermix all of those forces in the major cities IOT force a costly MOUT fight. Now, our dangerous air power can lay waste their advancing columns...

And here we all thought for a moment that he was being smart for conserving his forces and clustering them around civilian targets so they wouldn't be smashed in a straight-up fight with American forces.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-26 04:16pm

Darth Wong wrote: And here we all thought for a moment that he was being smart for conserving his forces and clustering them around civilian targets so they wouldn't be smashed in a straight-up fight with American forces.

Well the question is, it this a 1000 armored vehicles or just 1000 vehicles as is now bring reported. The First would indicate a corps sized attack, which numerically within the Republican Guards capacity but unlikely. A thousand vehicles with only some of them armored is more of a divisional sized effort.

Sending one division to hit the Third Infantry to slow them down isn't an awful idea, and the weather is poor right now. Still, there not going to accomplish much, even if they dig into the towns in the area.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-03-26 04:20pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: And here we all thought for a moment that he was being smart for conserving his forces and clustering them around civilian targets so they wouldn't be smashed in a straight-up fight with American forces.
Well the question is, it this a 1000 armored vehicles or just 1000 vehicles as is now bring reported. The First would indicate a corps sized attack, which numerically within the Republican Guards capacity but unlikely. A thousand vehicles with only some of them armored is more of a divisional sized effort.

Sending one division to hit the Third Infantry to slow them down isn't an awful idea, and the weather is poor right now. Still, there not going to accomplish much, even if they dig into the towns in the area.

still going to be a bloody flaming mess. American's are allergic to casualties. if this goes badly, it will crush moreale. if it goes well, and word spreads of the medina division getting their asses handed to them, the revolt could gain some ground.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-03-26 04:50pm

America is able to take casualties, if it has to.

Lord Sander · Post by **Lord Sander** » 2003-03-26 06:30pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:America is able to take casualties, if it has to.

And there lies the question, will the American public feel like it has to?

Do not answer that if it would cause Stravo to end the thread. This is a good thread.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-03-26 06:57pm

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/ ... index.html

So, I see US forces are protecting their supply lines. One has to wonder if this precaution were taken a few days ago whether those poor bastards in Baghdad would be in the position they are in.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-26 07:08pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:
still going to be a bloody flaming mess. American's are allergic to casualties. if this goes badly, it will crush moreale. if it goes well, and word spreads of the medina division getting their asses handed to them, the revolt could gain some ground.

Bullshit. That would about sum up that widely held view on casualties. The American people wont stand for losses that gain nothing, such as the endless meat grinder in Vietnam. However combat losses that are accomplishing something or for a goal held in high regard are accepted. It's been found that US generals are more concerned about losses then the public is.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-26 07:13pm

CENTCOM has denied there's any major Republican Guard movement south from Baghdad. Probably someone overheard a report about a truck and a tank being spotted by a Predator and ran with it.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-03-26 07:28pm

Yeah, so what?
Iraq will never ALLOW the USA to kick it't ass.
The term ALLOW, implies the ability to make a desision.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-03-26 07:30pm

Curious.
I just responed to a post by Weemaddano, and now it is not there to be responded too.
Something about Turkey not allowing an independant Kurdistan.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-03-26 07:39pm

I'm not crazy. The web page clearly says Weemaddano, as last person to post, and there are no posts by him in this thread.
WTF?

A case of the cowardly delete?
Post in question moved?
Temporal anomaly?
Temorary insanity?

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