Baton Rouge, LA multiple officers shot

[Agent Fisher]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/17/us/baton- ... index.html

Posted from my IPhone, so I can't really quote the article, but so far at least ten officers shot near the PD headquarters in Baton Rouge, 3 officers feared dead.

[Dartzap]

What's the name of that copycat phenomenon again? Seems to be being proven true.

[Zaune]

Same area Alton Sterling was shot dead. Presumably someone decided not to wait for the Department of Justice to finish investigating.

That investigation had better result in some major improvements to training and procedure and preferably some sort of charges against the officers responsible, that's all I can say.

[Agent Fisher]

For shooting an armed subject that kept reaching for his pocket, where he had his gun, while the cops were trying to restrain him? Yep, gotta charge those officers, clearly just racist cops shooting a black man.

[Zaune]

If it was that open-and-shut we wouldn't be having this conversation. According to one eyewitness (source) the incident that led to the 911 call was someone other than Sterling was starting trouble; it sounds like there's a good chance he drew his weapon on someone who was trying to rob him, but the cops (both of whom were known to Internal Affairs) weren't very interested in his side of the story.

I'm not saying I want them railroaded for the sake of being seen doing something, but they sure as hell have some explaining to do.

[cosmicalstorm]

There is an existing thread for debating the Sterling incident.

I expected at least one or two more cop murders after the last one, then maybe this will fade. But maybe it won't, there is something very tribal at work between the BLM movement and the rest.

What happens to the USA if this becomes a weekly thing? Where does that vicious circle end?

[General Zod]

There is an existing thread for debating the Sterling incident.

I expected at least one or two more cop murders after the last one, then maybe this will fade. But maybe it won't, there is something very tribal at work between the BLM movement and the rest.

What happens to the USA if this becomes a weekly thing? Where does that vicious circle end?

57 police are shot per year on average. So far this is just par per course considering the number of unarmed people the police murder every year.

[cosmicalstorm]

There is an existing thread for debating the Sterling incident.

I expected at least one or two more cop murders after the last one, then maybe this will fade. But maybe it won't, there is something very tribal at work between the BLM movement and the rest.

What happens to the USA if this becomes a weekly thing? Where does that vicious circle end?

57 police are shot per year on average. So far this is just par per course considering the number of unarmed people the police murder every year.

I know about "routine cop killings". But this "Shoot a cop" thing is going viral, or maybe it isn't. If it fades out I won't care.

But my question is: What if officers are ambushed and shot on a routine basis in this fashion?

[General Zod]

I know about "routine cop killings". But this "Shoot a cop" thing is going viral, or maybe it isn't. If it fades out I won't care.

But my question is: What if officers are ambushed and shot on a routine basis in this fashion?

So far I think this is just outrage and lashing out. I'd wager it dies down after a few months and things go back to the status quo.

[Alyrium Denryle]

What's the name of that copycat phenomenon again? Seems to be being proven true.

The Werther Effect, and it is true. This is just one more instance of it.

[Zaune]

So far I think this is just outrage and lashing out. I'd wager it dies down after a few months and things go back to the status quo.

I wouldn't bet too much on that. Not unless something is done about the underlying cause. I mean, these numbers (courtesy of Alyrium's post in the thread on the last revenge shooting) are pretty damning:

Abstract
A geographically-resolved, multi-level Bayesian model is used to analyze the data presented in the U.S. Police-Shooting Database (USPSD) in order to investigate the extent of racial bias in the shooting of American civilians by police officers in recent years. In contrast to previous work that relied on the FBI’s Supplemental Homicide Reports that were constructed from self-reported cases of police-involved homicide, this data set is less likely to be biased by police reporting practices. County-specific relative risk outcomes of being shot by police are estimated as a function of the interaction of: 1) whether suspects/civilians were armed or unarmed, and 2) the race/ethnicity of the suspects/civilians. The results provide evidence of a significant bias in the killing of unarmed black Americans relative to unarmed white Americans, in that the probability of being {black, unarmed, and shot by police} is about 3.49 times the probability of being {white, unarmed, and shot by police} on average. Furthermore, the results of multi-level modeling show that there exists significant heterogeneity across counties in the extent of racial bias in police shootings, with some counties showing relative risk ratios of 20 to 1 or more. Finally, analysis of police shooting data as a function of county-level predictors suggests that racial bias in police shootings is most likely to emerge in police departments in larger metropolitan counties with low median incomes and a sizable portion of black residents, especially when there is high financial inequality in that county. There is no relationship between county-level racial bias in police shootings and crime rates (even race-specific crime rates), meaning that the racial bias observed in police shootings in this data set is not explainable as a response to local-level crime rates.

And a serious, organised campaign effort to do something about that number has been running for what, five years now? And it's had very little impact; individual officers have been punished but aside from some piecemeal local efforts like in Baltimore or -tragically- Dallas, almost nothing has been done to improve training standards or oversight and accountability.

The longer this is allowed to fester, the more people are going to get tired of being fobbed off with impressive-sounding speeches full of empty promises and start looking at DIY solutions. And why the hell shouldn't they?

[Esquire]

As one of many obvious reasons, because it's going to achieve exactly the opposite effect from the one desired.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah. The only ones who win when the oppressed start shooting back are the morticians.

[General Zod]

The longer this is allowed to fester, the more people are going to get tired of being fobbed off with impressive-sounding speeches full of empty promises and start looking at DIY solutions. And why the hell shouldn't they?

Pretty much the only way that you're going to see a fix of the underlying cause is from a radical, top-down reorganization of the entire police force nationwide. I just don't see that realistically happening anytime soon.

[Col. Crackpot]

The longer this is allowed to fester, the more people are going to get tired of being fobbed off with impressive-sounding speeches full of empty promises and start looking at DIY solutions. And why the hell shouldn't they?

Pretty much the only way that you're going to see a fix of the underlying cause is from a radical, top-down reorganization of the entire police force nationwide. I just don't see that realistically happening anytime soon.

Especially when the frustrations of the delusional supposed oppressed kill those within law enforcement seeking honorable service ... when they kill men like Sgt. Montrell Jackson.

[Solauren]

The longer this is allowed to fester, the more people are going to get tired of being fobbed off with impressive-sounding speeches full of empty promises and start looking at DIY solutions. And why the hell shouldn't they?

Pretty much the only way that you're going to see a fix of the underlying cause is from a radical, top-down reorganization of the entire police force nationwide. I just don't see that realistically happening anytime soon.

And, more then likely, what will happen if the current 'punish all cops for a few idiots' mentality continues, the police and government will hit back, and hit back hard. We could see martial law coming down as 'needed to keep situations like this in control' as they happen.

[Zaune]

Especially when the frustrations of the delusional supposed oppressed kill those within law enforcement seeking honorable service ... when they kill men like Sgt. Montrell Jackson.

"Delusional supposed"... Did I not just post a link to peer-reviewed scientific evidence that US police are, on average, three and a half times more likely to shoot an unarmed black person than an unarmed white one? You may not like these people's methods but don't you tell me they don't have a number of totally valid reasons to be pissed off.

[Patroklos]

As was pointed out when it was brought up before its a BS study. For one is does not control for vast disparity in criminality between blacks and everyone else. Second, it's conclusion is irrelevent. Being unarmed /= shouldn't be shot at.

[Esquire]

Indeed, there's a study by the National Bureau of Economics Research which disputes the usual preconception. It's partial, but based on very good data. I note preemptively that the study authors clearly state that minorities are vastly more likely to suffer nonfatal physical actions from police.

EDIT: grammar; I forgot a conjunction.

[Simon_Jester]

Especially when the frustrations of the delusional supposed oppressed kill those within law enforcement seeking honorable service ... when they kill men like Sgt. Montrell Jackson.

"Delusional supposed"... Did I not just post a link to peer-reviewed scientific evidence that US police are, on average, three and a half times more likely to shoot an unarmed black person than an unarmed white one? You may not like these people's methods but don't you tell me they don't have a number of totally valid reasons to be pissed off.

They aren't delusional to think that blacks are unjustly shot by police more often than whites.

They are, however, delusional if they think that expressing their unhappiness with this fact by shooting more police officers will solve the problem.

[Terralthra]

Especially when the frustrations of the delusional supposed oppressed kill those within law enforcement seeking honorable service ... when they kill men like Sgt. Montrell Jackson.

"Delusional supposed"... Did I not just post a link to peer-reviewed scientific evidence that US police are, on average, three and a half times more likely to shoot an unarmed black person than an unarmed white one? You may not like these people's methods but don't you tell me they don't have a number of totally valid reasons to be pissed off.

They aren't delusional to think that blacks are unjustly shot by police more often than whites.

They are, however, delusional if they think that expressing their unhappiness with this fact by shooting more police officers will solve the problem.

How about we wait to see if the shooting in Baton Rouge was actually connected to said protestors, or even had a race-based motive, before we leap to conclusions?

[loomer]

As was pointed out when it was brought up before its a BS study. For one is does not control for vast disparity in criminality between blacks and everyone else. Second, it's conclusion is irrelevent. Being unarmed /= shouldn't be shot at.

The only valid use of lethal force is one to prevent imminent physical danger to someone present. So yes, while being unarmed =/= an inherently invalid use of lethal force, it sure as hell should raise a red flag as generally, someone unarmed is far less likely to be a clear and unavoidable danger to others.

[Alyrium Denryle]

As was pointed out when it was brought up before its a BS study. For one is does not control for vast disparity in criminality between blacks and everyone else. Second, it's conclusion is irrelevent. Being unarmed /= shouldn't be shot at.

The only valid use of lethal force is one to prevent imminent physical danger to someone present. So yes, while being unarmed =/= an inherently invalid use of lethal force, it sure as hell should raise a red flag as generally, someone unarmed is far less likely to be a clear and unavoidable danger to others.

Plus, the increased criminality of blacks is fucking irrelevant.

The study in question dealt in "if police contact is assumed, what are the odds that unarmed people will be shot" so these are people already under suspicion or some other investigatory or public order issue at minimum. Any difference in criminality between races is largely accounted for by the fact that the response variable in question is per-capita-per-contact.

Plus, the baseline stats regarding black criminality are highly likely to be somewhat biased anyway, depending on how much we can generalize the DoJs findings in Ferguson.

[Col. Crackpot]

Especially when the frustrations of the delusional supposed oppressed kill those within law enforcement seeking honorable service ... when they kill men like Sgt. Montrell Jackson.

"Delusional supposed"... Did I not just post a link to peer-reviewed scientific evidence that US police are, on average, three and a half times more likely to shoot an unarmed black person than an unarmed white one? You may not like these people's methods but don't you tell me they don't have a number of totally valid reasons to be pissed off.

That justifies murder?

[Col. Crackpot]

"Delusional supposed"... Did I not just post a link to peer-reviewed scientific evidence that US police are, on average, three and a half times more likely to shoot an unarmed black person than an unarmed white one? You may not like these people's methods but don't you tell me they don't have a number of totally valid reasons to be pissed off.

They aren't delusional to think that blacks are unjustly shot by police more often than whites.

They are, however, delusional if they think that expressing their unhappiness with this fact by shooting more police officers will solve the problem.

How about we wait to see if the shooting in Baton Rouge was actually connected to said protestors, or even had a race-based motive, before we leap to conclusions?

The murderer having a YouTube channel where he calls for the deaths of "crackers " isn't sufficient?